HiFly or Starboard
Dan Weiss
Goal: teaching and recreational racing boards for kids. Light inland wind.
Large lake use only.
Options: HiFly Maxx (with dagger), AHD Zen, Starboard Go (Start too big)
Areas of question: upwind performance in non-planing conditions; general
durability; smooth operation of centerboard/fins.
Sarasota Jack, or Mike and Anne Adair may have tried the Zen, hope for your
comments. Already heard from Ellen Faller on the Starboards, like to get
others' views, including Roger. Anyone sailed/taught using the HiFly?
Thanks,
-Dan
Jeff Feehan
mode, a daggerboard would be helpful.
i have a GO, and staying upwind is difficult for my kids, who sail it
with a 2.8m^2 sail - even with the starbilizers. they are usually
sailing in winds of ~5mph or less.
jeff feehan
WARDOG
New this year, check out the KIDDY:
http://www.star-board.com/products/kiddy.asp
First production Kiddy Board report:
From Elvis via Svein Rasmussen:
> Dear all, Bonaire is clearly the place when it comes to advanced programs for kids , and that's where the first production
> kiddy boards were tried out.
>
> Report from Elvis:
>
> We want to comment on the performance of the Kiddy board - it is amazing! We let a two year old ride it and he did great!!
> Today, we started the Bonaire International Regatta, and Bjorn Saragoza (11 years old) is using the board during SuperKids
> (age 13 and under), and he won all the course races on that board - and by a great distance.
>
> We are so impressed by the new board and we would like to buy a bunch of the new junior board for the Junior program we
> have, and at least several of the Kiddy boards. I plan to recommend to parents to buy these boards from Starboard, and
> will order in bulk when I get their committment. Please send the pricing information as soon as possible. I have already
> mentioned to the Aruban team my information and recommendation, so we are just waiting to hear from you.
>
> Please take note that this year's regatta has over 70 participating windersurfers and approx. 75% are under 15 years old.
> Check out the website www.bonaireregatta.org <http://www.bonaireregatta.org>
>
> All the best from Bonaire - Elvis
Also, I have lots of pics of kids on STARTs when Roger Jackson came to
Santa Barbara over Labor Day:
http://www.surfingsports.com/windsurf_santa_barbara.asp
The START doesn't look too big in these pics:
http://www.surfingsports.com/gimages/start_sb18_lg.jpg
http://www.surfingsports.com/gimages/start_sb10_lg.jpg
http://www.surfingsports.com/gimages/start_sb24_lg.jpg
There is a smaller START this year:
http://www.star-board.com/products/start.asp
WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com
KarabaszJP
STARTS. We also run 2 sailing camps windsurfing program as well as 3 local
yacht clubs junior windsurfing programs.
We've been doing this for over 8 years now.
So I think I can say this with absolute NO reservations. That the cumulative
oppion of our 11 instructors is...
WE HAVE HAD MUCH BETTER SUCCESS TEACHING KIDS (AS WELL AS ADULTS) USING THE
STARBOARD START THAN ANY OTHER BOARD WE"VE TRIED> and we have tried them all
all the way down to the Kazoo. IF there is anything better out there we haven't
seen it and we are looking.
Speaking of looking the AHD Zen looks interesting...but not cheap. We will be
implementing these into our teaching program this spring... I would be
interested in hearing what guys like Tinho have to say about the ZEN.
If you are primarilly teaching we have very special pricing available on
teaching equipment to instructors.
One quick point, as the board is an important key to success. I must however
point out that the proper rig is EQUALLY important. there are a bunch out there
that work (Ezzy, Gaastra, Epic, HOT) but the Sailworks Retro Ripper stands head
and shoulders above the rest in all catagories from performance, lightweight &
Durability. It is an important part of a successful equation!
Dan Weiss
for the kids to be able to see windsurfing as a part of the larger sailing
owrld, and the point has been raised that kids want no part of windsurfing
if the Sunfish and Optis will out perform the boards in light air.
My concern is the apparent lack of light wind windward ability with the very
wide shortboards. Smaller rigs help with leeway, but I know that tracking
in subplaning conditions is a benchmark method for getting upwind. That's
what appeals to me initially about centerboard hulls like the HiFlys.
Teaching basic skills is only part of the equation. These kids will slice
and dice on the course as part of their program. A board like the Prodigy
probably is out due to it resistance to turning in subplaning conditions
(personal feeling).
-Dan
"KarabaszJP" <karab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021126123419...@mb-fk.aol.com...
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
for
the local conditions (i.e. offshore winds, currents, geography) will give the
beginner
students and ultimately the school the best success rate.
The GO comes close, and if the instructional program is changed to eliminate the
need (EVER) of using a center fin or centerboard, similar results can be
obtained using the smaller GO boards, or the Kiddy, or wide free ride boards.
New this year are the ASA skin F-136-F-156 replica's that can be used as
trainer boards (they already have side fin inserts) or for Junior and Youth
racing.
Combine these wide, stable, durable boards, with the new balanced rig/power
control instructional techniques, add in the extreme light weight, but very
efficient
Retro Ripper rigs, and include "foot steering/railing to go upwind" from the
first minute on the water, and centerboards and center fins become an
anachronism.
But, wait a couple of months, and there will be something new on the market
that any of you with schools will love.
I have emphasized "training technique" here as the results we have been getting
with
beginners of all sizes and ages using the Start boards initially seems to be one
or
more magnitudes higher in success rate.
Doing more (instruction wise) of what has not been successful at growing this
sport
we all love, is not going to make us grow.
Changing to modern instructional methods, using modern beginner friendly boards,
and super light weight peformant rigs like the Retro Rippers has doubled or
tripled
the success rate.
So, doing more of what isn't working, isn't working!
Time for some change, I think?
Roger
Scott Haas
I used a HiFly Motion last season for teaching, at 90cm wide and 219 liters
it
is large for kids under 100 pounds but for the initial lessons, that's ok.
The long
dagger board makes it easy to stay upwind and seldom do I have to go out
with
the kayak and rescue a downwinder. Thus my opinion is stick with a large
board
with a large dagger for inital lessons, but go with something smaller for
recreational use
like HiFly Maxx(with dagger).
Using the Motion in adult fun recreational mode, I use a giant fin, it's
dagger up and
a Sailworks 8.0 Retro sail. All of the wide style / trainer boards I've
tried so far have
sailed horribly with centerboard/dagger down at that just about planing
speed upwind.
I've not been able to get one to rail up on an edge like you can do with a
traditional
long board, maybe someone knows how?
Bye,
Scott
>>> Dan Weiss<dwusNOSPA...@bellsouth.net> 11/26/02 12:13PM >>>
Dan Weiss
in my application. Again, while a Start undoubtedly provides the most
stable platform, I want to ensure further progression in subplaning
conditions (meaning smaller sails in 10 knots, not 9.0 and above) so as to
encourage fleet racing on the same courses as the dinghies use.
FW/IMCO/Prodigy remain alternatives for future pursuit if interest remains
high and many kids will take care of that themselves in the end.
You know the saying, "Show me a windsurfer and I'll show you someone who has
fun, but show me a racer and I'll show you a windsurfer for life." Racing
in a mixed fleet and on the same gear as learning is the goal . Expand your
thoughts on the fit of the Start/GO series to that goal, specifically in
light of how you feel about the Start with center fin.
When you are talking about foot steering/railing do you refer to dropping
the windward rail? Or something different/
Thanks
-Dan
"sailquik (Roger Jackson)" <sail...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3DE3C31F...@mindspring.com...
All Wet Sports
in my school this summer. Both boards are of the "large" variety. Hi fly now
had smaller versions with dagger, I beleive they are:Mambo @275 length , 80. cm
wide and the Matrix @265 length, 78cm wide. Also Exocet has 2 newer smaller
version our for 2003... still with Cruiser name... 1 is 267 long and87 wide the
other is 269 long and 69 wide. I have not tried any of these "smaller"
versions from Exocet or Hi Fly but like all the rest.... they have there good
points and.......
Andy All Wet Sports
Dan Weiss
Contact me directly via e-mail if you wish. Take out the obvious
"distracters"
-Dan
"All Wet Sports" <allwet...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021126162028...@mb-cr.aol.com...
KarabaszJP
BUT I put my 2 cents in earlier, Now (again) you are talking about something
"near & DEAR" to my heart . Junior Windsurfer RACING. The 3 Yacht Clubs we
teach at have/are putting junior windsurfing in their Junior fleets (with
Sunfish, opties, lasers ). From the Yacht Club of Stone Harbor (NJ) having a
6th place finisher in the National JO (he originally qualified in Lasers) in
windsurfing fleet. To the others running fun races on wed & Fri evenings (Fri's
the adults participate too) They are having dinner and racing and even our
instructors hang around (on their time) because "it's so much fun" and these
instructors are "dye in the wool" high performance wave sailors/kitesurfers,
hanging out with 10 year olds, mommy's and daddy's. on their own time running
little windsurfing races. It bring a warm smile and a true feeling that no
matter what the world think (windsurfing is dying) or Kitesurfing will take
over the world (many Kiters oppinion) WINDSURFING IS ALIVE & WELL.
Equipment wise (like it matters) they use a round robin format with the
Training stuff STARTS are the most prized...win most the races. So I still
stand by my previous statement as to hull preference and the importance of
proper junior rigs.
BTW These yacht clubs are sailing in 6 to 8 knot current in about equal
windspeeds.The STARTS work fine but Roger's fin balancing is important. Finally
this year we will be hosting the SJYRU (SJYRU = South Jersey Yacht racing Union
local Yacht club group) Junior Windsurfing Champs this summer and we already
have registration inquiries.
I think we have the right formula. If we can be of any further help let me
know.
Jack (Sarasota)
I have recently had a little more experience with the Prodigy, and we
own a START. Jane and I have also sailed the Maxx. I do not feel the
Prodigy is hard to turn and neither does Jane. The beginner version
has a small fin and centerboard which degrade the performance
considerably, but do make turning even easier. Jane loved her START
and did not like the Maxx at all. I don't care for the Maxx either,
but our local teaching guru uses them successfully with beginners all
the time. I am not sure the START is too big for kids. Roger and
Ellen can comment on this with much more authority than I. I saw the
Zen recently at Calema, but neither Jane nor I sailed one. Susan and
Annie did however. It was my impression that the Prodigy was more
satisfying for an experienced sailor. The Zen has bigger center and
regular fins than the similar beginner wideboards. I got to do some
sailing in on and off planing conditions with the Prodigy this
weekend. Like the Start, it planes effortlessly and without a sudden
jump to scare a beginner. I felt that it carved more easily than my
Formula Board. I could plane the Prodigy in a little less wind than my
Formula 175(with 60cm weed fin), using the same 10.4 rig on both
boards. The acceleration was much greater on the Formula however,
(not sure if this observation contributes to your question).
In summary, Try some kids on a Prodigy, Start, and Go with
stabilators, and see what works for you. I don't think the Go will be
so great in subplaning conditions, but have no experience with kids
and stabilators on them.
The Prodigy probably acts more like a sailboat than the rest of them.
Good Luck,
Jack (Sarasota)
"Dan Weiss" <dwusNOSPA...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:G2PE9.13588$sT3....@news.bellsouth.net...
William Fragakis
on one.
If the wind speed is 7+mph, even with the older centerfin, they go
upwind fine. If it's blowing harder, upwind is definitely no problem.
But, more importantly from a teaching aspect, not having a daggerboard
means one less thing to trip over. The first time my son rode a
daggerboard board (Fanatic IIRC 80cm wide), he really complained about
the daggerboard handle sticking up where he wanted to stand.
The other thing about a Start: kids hardly ever fall off.
Oh, and the _other_ thing about a Start vs dinghies- they can clown
around on them, fall off, put 2 or 3 aboard, take the sail off and
"surf" and do all sorts of fun things you can't do on a dinghy. And if
the wind hits 10-12, the sailing performance will become apparent.
wf
In article <G2PE9.13588$sT3....@news.bellsouth.net>, Dan Weiss
Nathaniel Siddall
board is probably the Start, and other widestyle boards would also be
excellent. Soft deck, no centerboard to trip on, cheap, simple. But any of
the boards discussed here would be fine.
In ideal conditions--ie open, shallow water--and with the prospect of moving
straight into planing mode sailing, a widestyle shortboard would probably be
great. They'd be ideal for first time planing, getting into the straps,
etc.
My beginners usually learn on an inland lake with light, erratic wind, and
get stuck in one of the little bays and have to be pulled out of a marsh or
something. If you have conditions like that, or tidal flow, or similar
problems, a centerboard will make it lot easier for first timers to get back
to where they started. Teaching on a Prodigy, I've found that people
automatically head upwind, and then can jibe rather than tack, which is
easier for a lot of first timers to do.
In a typical light wind weekend at the summer cottage on the lake scenario,
the fun thing for a lightwind intermediate to do is to go out for a
sightseeing cruise, a mile or two down to the other end of the lake, back
home, etc...and of course a centerboard makes that a lot easier.
But, it's nice to have a board that will perform in high wind, if and when
you get to that stage. And, from my point of view, that you could start
racing on.
I'd vote for a Prodigy, myself, although it is a bit heavier and more
expensive than the non-centerboard types. (Incidentally, I concur with
Jack, that it is about as easy to turn as you could hope for--much easier
than a traditional longboard.)
"Dan Weiss" <dwusNOSPA...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cKNE9.13083$sT3....@news.bellsouth.net...