Equipment Fragility - or something like that

Zephyr

unread,

Mar 31, 2006, 3:28:55 PM3/31/06

to

Preface, this post is really just a bunch of jumbled mublings, and
may or may not contain any real questions or points of interest.

Hey guys,

Just yesterday got my March issue of windsurfing ( Looks like I'm well
behind in the mailing list, as some of you were talking about it over a
month ago) and it had a little bit about a Cuben Fiber sail from
Aerotech. That got me thinking about sails and rigs which lead me to
this topic.

I love windsurfing, but, I have one big beef with the sport, the
equipment it too damn fragile. Get catapulted and you blow out a panel,
hit a shallow spot, and you blow out your fin box, drop your mast a
foot and it will snap next time you rig, Climb on your board with your
harness hook, and you can dent the board. ect ect ect.

The equipment is light, to provide lots of performance, but seriously,
when the wind picks up, I sail with fear. Not for myself, but for the
equipment and the expense that will be incurred when I bust it.

So, seeing this bit on the Cuben fiber got me thinking.

In the older days of windsurfing, everything was heavy and had less
performance. BUT, it was strong. My early 90's mistral malibu could
take a boom slam and keep on dancing, while the same force on my 2000
*board would blow the nose right off.

The aluminum mast I have has been dropped a number of times, and
although it is slightly bent, it is in fewer pieces than my old powerex
490 which was never dropped. (ed's note - I have not sailed the alum
mast since I got my first carbon mast)

I have 2 mistral sails made of Dacron that are still strong enough to
stand on if pulled tight between 2 points, but, I wouldn't dare do that
to my sailworks retros

Before you get carried away on the differences in performance, and ect
ect ect. Let me say, I know that the newer stuff is better, I can feel
it. And for those of you who stick with your older equipment, more
power to you.

So, getting back to the Cuben fibre. is it really that strong? is it
tough like the dacron sails were?

I wish that I could buy a piece of equipment once, and have it last for
10 years. Currently with the equip choices that are out there, that is
laughable. -

However - It seems that there is a bit of recognition of this point in
the industry, more xply sails than before, RDM are more popular and
boards.. well, boards are boards, as long as its not a formula board,
you should be okay. (or an older techno nose)

But, most RDM's stop at 460, a few exist longer, but, what about
the 520 I have right now? And would a RDM be that much stronger at
that length? Is the only option to have your largest sail be a 6.8
with a long extension? I guess that would have been possible with old
style sails that had more power, but what about us low wind sailors who
want to go out in 12 mph of wind - that gusts to 20?

Maybe all my complaints are born of the need to use large equipment, I
get the feeling that smaller equipment, is less fragile.

Well, Okay, getting all the way back to where I started. The Cuben
fiber sail. If that stuff really is that much more durable I can't
wait to see it in more sails. And the "softer hand" is a plus too,
no more crinkling when rigging / de-rigging a sail. I hate that noise,
sounds like the sail is crying in pain.

Combine the Cuben fiber sail with a 520 rdm mast and maybe we can have
our cake and eat it too? Maybe in 5 years we can buy new equipment
with the thought of it lasting for 10 more? Here's to hoping!

Enjoy the weekend, the ice is finally melting here in MI, and the
season opener can't be all the far away!

Dave

a_m...@yahoo.com

unread,

Mar 31, 2006, 4:46:32 PM3/31/06

to

Zephyr wrote:

> I wish that I could buy a piece of equipment once, and have it last for
> 10 years. Currently with the equip choices that are out there, that is
> laughable. -
>

There are lots of 10 year-old (and even older) Roberts boards out
there. Sailed hard all those years, too. Sure, they're fragile on
shore, so don't ding them on the rocks. But on the water, with the
exception of impact, they're tough as nails if used as intended. You
won't be able to put that kind of mileage on something from Cobra - the
tradeoffs involved in that pseudo-mass production process won't allow
it (numbers are too low to really make high-quality/low production
tolerance processes work; the board has to come out of the factory
cheaply enough to leave plenty of margin for transportation half way
around the world and an extensive distribution chain). But if you order
a board from Rob Mulder or Mike Zajicek, you determine the durability
vs. weight tradeoff, all at pretty reasonable cost.

> Combine the Cuben fiber sail with a 520 rdm mast and maybe we can have
> our cake and eat it too? Maybe in 5 years we can buy new equipment
> with the thought of it lasting for 10 more? Here's to hoping!
>

RDM's are just too soft once you get past 460. Stiffness is a function
of wall strength and diameter. At some point, you can't up the wall
strength enough to make up for the loss in stiffness from the lower
diameter. With current materials, at reasonable cost, any RDM over 460
is a highly suspect proposition in terms of performance, as bigger
sails need stiffer masts to provide enough tension. 520 would be
ridiculous - any sail needing a mast that long couldn't possible
perform up to its potential on a noodle.

As for the whole Cuben fiber thing - exotic materials may very well be
able to extend the life expectancy of a sail quite a bit. Just ask
yourself whether (a) the cost is worth it on purely economic terms
(high upfront cost amortized over a longer lifetime - a present value
analysis might find it's not such a good deal to pay double now for
twice the life span) and (b) whether 9 years from now, you'll really
want to sail something that old given how much better the new stuff is.
If you're really into it, getting a lot of TOW, you'll probably want
the performance upgrade of new gear in a few years. If you're sailing
very occasionally, the current crop of x-ply sails will last you a good
long time.

Your point about fragility being more of an issue with high-performance
light air gear is well taken. To get to reasonable weights and extract
the performance we get out of this stuff, and to stay within reasonable
limits on cost, you have to live with some fragility limitations. The
whole ding-resistance issue is pretty clear cut. With Formula boards,
you have other restrictions, too - don't jump them, don't stomp too
hard on the deck. But they're actually a pretty good compromise, too -
if you do ding a well-constructed formula board, it's pretty easily
repairable. As long as it doesn't suck a lot of water (or as long as
you immediately go into water extraction mode), there's very little
that can't be fixed at reasonable cost (you should see some of the
surgery that Rob Mulder performs on boards mangled in collisions,
dropped from roof racks, etc.)

Some of the stuff out there uses interesting construction methods as a
way of achieving light weight at reasonable cost; wood Starboards come
to mind. The cost for that is lower than using lots of carbon (as in
Roberts or Mike's Lab boards); but then anytime you try to repair it,
you have a whole separate issue (and higher cost then), plus the wooden
deck introduces a whole new set of worries in everyday use (ever seen
those holes in the Starboard decks from people using EasyUphauls?).
Construction can also go the other way - hollow boards can be pretty
bomber while being very light and stiff, plus if you ding them, you
just drain them, laminate, and you're as good as new. The cost,
however, has proven prohibitive.

I think a lot of the tradeoffs in these issues end up where they are
because of the size of the market - the manufacturers cater to the
majority of a very small market, and there's not a lot of currency in
specializing in truly niche products. Plus with the small numbers (and
the resulting lack of economies of scale), you're essentially dealing
with something one step up from a cottage industry. If we scale up the
size of the windsurfing population by an order of magnitude in the next
few years, you may well see the influx of capital needed to seriously
push beyond the current constraints. I'd have to say though, that even
within the current setup, I'm finding that the whole dollar-to-smiles
ratio in this sport is pretty favorable.

> Enjoy the weekend, the ice is finally melting here in MI, and the
> season opener can't be all the far away!
>

While it's chilly sometimes, we've sailing all winter here in the
Pacific Northwest. Hope you get out soon.

/Andreas

trn...@yahoo.com

unread,

Mar 31, 2006, 7:42:53 PM3/31/06

to

Dave,

I think the equipment today is better.

I have been sailing for many moons. I am 35 so that puts me a good 22
years plus. I used to instruct in College and ran a demo trailer for
the local winsurfing shop etc.... I have a lot of retail experience,
racing (I was a terrible at racing) and personal sailing with the first
few generations of production short boards from Fanatic, AHD, Jimmy
Lewis custom boards, Hi-Tech, Fox, Seatrend, Bic, Hi Fly. Oh and
monofilm and monofilm/dacron sails from Aerotech, North, Pryde and ART.
I even worked in a sail loft for a while making sail boat sails and
building a few personal use windsurfing sails for laughs. My buddy and
I used to make our own boards for a bit in high school and college from
the scraps his Dad had left over from his projects. We raced really
big 9.0 meter Neil pryde sails on 3 piece aluminum masts that had a
aluminum tip extension. Windsurfing Hawaii booms that were like 3 feet
wide and forever long. We sailed in Florida mostly sub 15kts.

Back then we used to break stuff a lot, luckily my sailing buddy's Dad
didn't worry about cash and kept us in equipment. He viewed us
breaking stuff, as long as it wasn't from goofing around, as something
he wasn't going to have to swim in later. Those giant pryde sails on
the aluminum masts would just fold in half if you hit a piling or
dropped them on something the right way and like you said after a while
they would get a pre bend in them. We repaired the nose of the
Fanatic Ultra Cat and Mistral Equipe more than a couple of times form
the front end of a boom or mast strike. The rail seams on some of the
old boards used to be a terrible weak spot. Not to mention mast tracks
and dagger boxes. Don't get me started on the old booms and how often
the seams on those things would crack or the head would get uv damage
and splinter or just crack around the rivets from stress. Plus spun
fiberglass masts would crush in the center with the first generation
clamp booms. But we even used to have that problem occasionally with
the tie on booms. A mast protector sleeve helped solve that. I never
used an Ampro and I understand that was the gold standard of fiberglass
masts.

My current take on the whole thing is from the perspective of a mostly
short board sailor with sails smaller than 6.2. And maybe that will
account for the different view as you noted.

In my opinion the equipment today is much tougher compared to the late
80's and early 90's stuff. Granted Dacron was a hell of a lot tougher
than pure monofilm. But the old Dacron sails also soaked up water and
were susceptible to losing their shape.

I have broken a Aitken 9'6" (Fin box) and a Fanatic Ultra Bee (cracked
in half behind the mast box flat landing a jump) but I have not ever
broken a newer generation board. Flat landings, catapults, etc.... I
do use a mast pad and a boom bra when I sail and I am pretty tall so
the boom doesn't normally touch the tail of the board or much of the
front except the tip of the nose. Infact I still sail the Starboard
260 wave that I bought in what?.... 1998 or there about. Pretty close
to the 10 year mark you mentioned. I got rid of the sister board to
that Starboard only because we needed a wide style board for the family
to short board on instead of the narrower Starboard 280 Free I traded
in.

And for what it is worth from 1999 to 2003 I sailed the Gorge about 12
days a month minimum from late April to early November. So I am not
talking "easy" sailing. During that time I did blow out two sail
panels. One my brother tore after being catapulted onto the nose of
the board and across the sail (that was the 260 wave that doesn't even
show a scratch from that accident by the way) and one that I put a knee
through when a foot came out of a strap on a jump. That was a brand
freaking new Sailworks revo 4.2. Other than that the old stuff I used
to sail got trashed more often sailing in Florida. Maybe the salt
water and sand was the big culprit in Florida. But I think the
equipment is better.
But the difference of blowing out a new sail and a old sail is that the
newer ones are cake to fix. It costs $75.00 and I never noticed a
difference in performance in the repaired sail. The old mono-sails or
mono covered Dacron seemed to be a lot more finnicky to repair and
never seemed to sail as well after a panel repair.

I do have some egshell cracks in the forward rail of my RRD WaveCult.
But I have pretty much just abused the life out of that board jumping
and learning to really sail in the Gorge. I still expect the board to
just snap in half one of these days when I bungle another landing. It
just has to. But again I bought that board in late 2000 sailed it as
my primary board in the Gorge for three plus seasons. Sailing at a
really windy place is like adding dog years to boards. Hour after hour
month after month of impact sailing. I do not think I could have
gotten away with that on my old Fox or Seatrend from the late 80's.
However, the Hi-Tech and Jimmy Lewis glass boards were pretty much
impervious to everything. The Hi-Tech's especially as they didn't soak
up water if you put a hole in them. I did have some trouble with a
Hi-Tech delaminating once near the fin box. But I think that was a
fluke.

As far as CubenFibre etc.... I know from working in the old days with
Steve and Marty Gotleib of Aerotech sails that they are pretty stand up
people. And Steve was a big boy back in the 80's. If he says it is
stronger then I would guess he is not kidding.

FWIW
Tom

LeeD

unread,

Mar 31, 2006, 9:00:59 PM3/31/06

to

Good replys, and useful info to boot....
My experience is time similar to trns, but living in SFBay, and
sailing mostly Crissy and Waddell, maybe the emphasis to smaller
gear.....
The old '87-90, pre mono sails sailed fine, delamed after 2 seasons,
and did blow out. I used a '88 last week, used a '90 non mono today.
Aluminum booms usually lasted 4 years, but if you insist on crashing
and getting launched every run, maybe 2 months.
NP 5 piece Easton masts were OK, but bend not the best for a range of
sizes. My favs, being a Gaastra sailor, was the gold Serfiac two
pieces, bulletproof for me even at Wads, Davs, and PaloMarin
surfsailing.
But when PX came out with carbon/glass in '89, I bought my RDM's
right then and there!
Poly glass boards dented at the heels, but otherwise strong unless
you hit them with hammers....or ran them into blocks of concrete.
Ampros were OK strength, but bad performance.
I seriously hate monofilm sails, especially the main panels from luff
to clew. And the top 3 panels, of course.
Still have my CK-95's that were bought used by a gear wrecking racer,
and now 8 years, solid, as is my PX SDMs bought in '92 for flatwater
sailing.
I suspect boards break from big flat landings, and as Sailworks says,
the new sails just don't jump like the old stuff, unless you use
Onshores, Searchs, XXX's types.
Can't match new stuff with old parts, and vice versa, but overall,
given a good '89 setup, basically equal speed and planing performance
to new stuff, but less direction and ease, barely.
This assuming you were good enough a windsurfer in '89 to know how to
rig and tune!

the principal

unread,

Mar 31, 2006, 9:26:02 PM3/31/06

to

6 bits.

What's that?

3 quarters

That's 75 cents

Yep.

Huh?

75/100

I hope if I keep saying this long enough it will come true.
The only thing I wish for is large masts sold with 75% bottoms and 100%
tops

sails rip....I got tape
boards age.... that's why our the good brothers Gougeon will just get a
wink and a nod from old St. Pete
But when it comes to masts <rage building>
It's just a frikken' tube... some think we could build one to space!
Get it right!

J

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 12:30:26 AM4/1/06

to

deck introduces a whole new set of worries in everyday use (ever seen
those holes in the Starboard decks from people using EasyUphauls?).

Huh? How does an EasyUphaul cause holes?

Jim

Craig

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 12:42:28 AM4/1/06

to

FWIW I feel my Starboard FF Wood is WAY more
fragile than my FF Starboard D-Ram.
I also feel that the board, boom, mast,sail
should be able to be dropped at speed
without fear of breaking something.
This will keep you trying new things.
I know I don't want any more wood boards.

I sailed in Jan this year and fell on top
of 11 sq meter sail and one arm of Chinook carbon
fiber boom broke. Dealer/Co made good as it was
still under warranty. Like the fact that you
can replace arms separately.

We had our season opener today in Buffalo, NY.
All the ice is gone!
Sailed in the river off Grand Island.
Only 4 of us out but it was sweet.
Hard to resist as air temps got up to
76 F today w/water temps 37 F.
Tried out the Bare Polar Heat.
Worked great!

Hope you get some soon!

Craig

Dan Weiss

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 6:56:33 AM4/1/06

to

the principal wrote:
SNIP

> I hope if I keep saying this long enough it will come true.
> The only thing I wish for is large masts sold with 75% bottoms and 100%
> tops
>
> sails rip....I got tape
> boards age.... that's why our the good brothers Gougeon will just get a
> wink and a nod from old St. Pete
> But when it comes to masts <rage building>
> It's just a frikken' tube... some think we could build one to space!
> Get it right!

At least one manufacturer did this, and may still do: FIberspar. You
just described the Reflex Wave (in concept if not in actual fact).

-Dan

mo...@loftsails.com

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 7:43:20 AM4/1/06

to

> RDM's are just too soft once you get past 460. Stiffness is a function
> of wall strength and diameter. At some point, you can't up the wall
> strength enough to make up for the loss in stiffness from the lower
> diameter. With current materials, at reasonable cost, any RDM over 460
> is a highly suspect proposition in terms of performance, as bigger
> sails need stiffer masts to provide enough tension. 520 would be
> ridiculous - any sail needing a mast that long couldn't possible
> perform up to its potential on a noodle.

490 rdms are available, and function extremely well!
The Loft O2 Freeride sails- up to 8.4- are rdm recommended.
The O2 Freeride 8.4 was announced as the test teams's "heart-throb" in
the Planchemag (France) 05 tests, in their 06 tests the results are the
same- both tests with the O2 8.4 on a Loftmast 490 rdm.
The design of the sail will certainly influence things, I also believe
that there is a limit, I look forward to future tests to know where the
limit is!
Good winds, Monty

WARDOG

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 10:43:56 AM4/1/06

to

mo...@loftsails.com wrote:
> 490 rdms are available, and function extremely well!

Hi Monty,
Yes, they do...thanks for helping to bust down another myth...we have
the new Hot Rod 490 RDM's made for Hot Sails Maui by Kilwell...developed
for their new speed sails "SuperSpeed"...in the bigger sizes (> 7.4m2
coming soon)..
http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/2006/superspeed.php
Jeff Henderson and Tom Hammerton worked pretty hard to get it right...as
I'm sure you did with yours...

Are your RDM's produced by Triana?
It seems like you've liked their masts in the past...
Gulftech had them do a 490 RDM that was pretty decent, sold quite a few
to Ezzy owners who couldn't get a good one, and to people tired of
breaking 100% carbon race masts in their big no-cams...but, GT changed
their warranty from 3 years to 3 months...:-(
Definitely wouldn't touch their product now with a 16' pole...;-)

>> The Loft O2 Freeride sails- up to 8.4- are rdm recommended.
>> The O2 Freeride 8.4 was announced as the test teams's "heart-throb" in
>> the Planchemag (France) 05 tests, in their 06 tests the results are the
>> same- both tests with the O2 8.4 on a Loftmast 490 rdm.

Pretty damn kewl...keep on pushing the limit...nice to know that there
are still a few forward thinking designers bumping up against the
envelope...is this the review of the O2 Freeride 8.4m2 that you referred to?

http://www.loftsails.com/kam_pages/1/e/16.php

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

WARDOG

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 11:57:29 AM4/1/06

to

Zephyr wrote:
> The equipment is light, to provide lots of performance, but seriously,
> when the wind picks up, I sail with fear. Not for myself, but for the
> equipment and the expense that will be incurred when I bust it.

This attitude will hold your progress back, for sure...
Doesn't have to be that way...you just need to shop smarter...this means
annualizing cost of ownership of WS gear...almost always pays out to
spend more money on higher quality gear upfront, than to replace less
durable kit more frequently...not to mention loss of sailing time,
safety issues, stress of survival, and have I mentioned loss of sailing
time?...;-)

For wavesailors, the majority of breakage and carnage happens on EPIC
days...when the gear is subjected to greater stressors...

>> I wish that I could buy a piece of equipment once, and have it last for
>> 10 years. Currently with the equip choices that are out there, that is
>> laughable. -

BS...see above...shop smarter...not more...extremely durable equipment
choices are available, if you choose to sniff it out...I do...that's my
job...my clients trust me to spend the time and money doing this upfront
for them...and I test this stuff at one of the most demanding sailing
venues in the world...Jalama Beach...

http://www.surfingsports.com/cali_november/slides/jalama_november_wardog1.jpg
http://www.surfingsports.com/images/wardog_wave_mural.jpg

>> The aluminum mast I have has been dropped a number of times, and
>> although it is slightly bent, it is in fewer pieces than my old powerex
>> 490 which was never dropped. (ed's note - I have not sailed the alum
>> mast since I got my first carbon mast)

God only knows how much internal corrosion has occurred while it's just
been sitting there unused...recycle it...if you've ever seen an aluminum
mast break and the damage it will do to your sail and potentially to
your body from knife sharp edges...you would never use one in the first
place...

>> I have 2 mistral sails made of Dacron that are still strong enough to
>> stand on if pulled tight between 2 points, but, I wouldn't dare do that
>> to my sailworks retros

Jeff Henderson, Hot Sails Maui, has a story about a guy at Hookipa
washed up on the rocks with his dacron Super Freak...stood on it to walk
over the rocks and get out of the mess he was in...definitely don't even
think about trying this with your SWX Retro...;-)

>> So, getting back to the Cuben fibre. is it really that strong? is it
>> tough like the dacron sails were?

Lighter and stronger...will be putting it to the test as soon as the
container lands...however, we've been using the standard 100% grid
Aerotech Phantoms for 3 years in *real* breaking waves and haven't had
any durability issues...I've had the 7.4m2 out in 20' surf...

>> But, most RDM's stop at 460, a few exist longer, but, what about
>> the 520 I have right now? And would a RDM be that much stronger at
>> that length? Is the only option to have your largest sail be a 6.8
>> with a long extension? I guess that would have been possible with old
>> style sails that had more power, but what about us low wind sailors who
>> want to go out in 12 mph of wind - that gusts to 20?
>>

Commented on this with reply to Monty...490 RDM's are available...
Been personally using 460 and 490 RDM's on sails up to 8.3m2 for
years...only way to go if you are miles from shore and want some
security that your mast won't snap...

>> Well, Okay, getting all the way back to where I started. The Cuben
>> fiber sail. If that stuff really is that much more durable I can't
>> wait to see it in more sails. And the "softer hand" is a plus too,
>> no more crinkling when rigging / de-rigging a sail. I hate that noise,
>> sounds like the sail is crying in pain.

Jeff Henderson is leading the way with a 7.0m2 dacron Super Freak...
http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/newsphotos/newssf70.jpg

quietest and most durable sails on the planet...take battens out and
fold like a flag...place in suitcase...
He's already done a custom SF pushing 9.0m2...

http://www.hotsailsmaui.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=399

"Here is the 7.0m! Sails unreal! 4-8 knots and I was planning on a
hypersonic 105 about 50% of the time. Pumps like a full on wing! Much
better than i ever imagined." -- Jeff Henderson

http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/2006/news.php#

> 2006-02-28
> NEW SuperFreak sizes!
>
> Super Freak 7.0m and 3.2m now available! Designer Jeffrey Henderson has now released the 2006 version of a 7.0m and a 3.2m SuperFreak. “I spent over a year on the 7.0m, it was a handful to make work the way I wanted it too.” explained Henderson. “The result was WAY better than I imagined”. Interestingly the sail is extremely light and even with a pvc window. “The pump-ability of this sail was amazing, much easier to pump onto a plane than a film sail, but maybe that is just me” The 7.0m rigs on a 460 mast. Orders are now accepted for these sizes, with first stock coming to Maui and other locations in May.
>

>> Combine the Cuben fiber sail with a 520 rdm mast and maybe we can have
>> our cake and eat it too?

For 2006 the Cuben fiber Phantom is offered in 6.2m2, 6.8m2, and 7.4m2
sizing, which rigs on a 460...weights are 3.5lb, 3.6lb, and 3.7lbs,
respectively...
MSRP's are $130 more than standard 100% grid Phantoms...

http://www.surfingsports.com/aerotech_phantom_06.asp

Keep in mind that monofilm is 1/3 the price of grid...but, as everyone
knows...monofilm sails are not 1/3 the price of grid sails...

> Maybe in 5 years we can buy new equipment
>>> with the thought of it lasting for 10 more? Here's to hoping!

Again, that time is here now...just need the magic of a 16 digit number
that can help you manifest this reality now...;-)

>> Enjoy the weekend, the ice is finally melting here in MI, and the
>> season opener can't be all the far away!

Been testing out new stuff all Winter long while you've been
hibernating...welcome back to Spring, Rip Van Winkle...;-)

WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com

the principal

unread,

Apr 1, 2006, 6:04:44 PM4/1/06

to

Welly well well well, my little droogies.
It seems your very own Sitka may have to give a little.
It appears that the very NP which has been the scorn of much external
dialog have made a gracious leap to appease those less fortunate.
On the advice of your very own they seem to have seen the error
in their ways and are willing to make ammends.

Right right right then let's have at it shall we.....

"Construction process: Double Sandwhich Pre-preg with Suncore
Treatment."

one wonders where did they came up with such gorgeousness and
gorgosity.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.windsurfing/browse_frm/thread/2c4ac8acc2238dd6/e70bcacf6b05acc7?q=100%25+Carbon+Masts&rnum=27#e70bcacf6b05acc7

Once the sweet bliss is realized, please direct all your consultancy or
an explaintion of this post to
mydea...@sothatsitthen.Itoldyouso.org...