drysuits with relief zippers
Tim Hogan1
I have read the recent thread about drysuits, with the mention that kokatat
(gore-tex) drysuits are available with relief zippers. Are any other drysuits
available with this feature? Also, any comments on the durability of the
kokatat suits for windsurfing would be useful (wear at harness contact points,
shin, elbow, and forearm typical abrasion points, etc). Any help appreciated.
Tim
sail...@ameritel.net
Tim:
As far as i know, no other suits have relief zippers, but as a cost added
option, I would expect any of the custom wetsuit mfg's. could add one.
Well, I've sailed my Kokatat 6 weekends so far, worn it all day long in 60
deg. down to 40 deg air temps, 40-55 deg. water temps. No wear at all and
I've been using both a seat harness on large sails, and a waist harness on
small sails. Sure is nice to be able to stand around talking to people after
coming off the water in 20+ knots and being totally warm. In fact yesterday,
I had burped so much air out of the Kokatat that it was clinging very tightly
over the poly fleece I had on under it. So, I burped some air back into it,
and the loft came back in the fleece and I warmed up immediatley. As for
durability, my friend just sent his suit back to Kokatat after 3 seasons of
lite winter sailing. His suit had one tiny fin cut hole down near the cuff,
that just seeped. Plus the seals were all 3 years old. He had them add the
relief zipper, completely recondition and test the entire suit (Ie fixed the
little leak, replaced all the seals and added the new waterproof neoprene
socks. He got it back in about 10 days and it cost about $220, but $110 of
that was for the addition of the relief zipper.
I'm getting so tired of hearing about people's (and retailers) bad experiences
from along time ago when "bag" suits were thin hypalon, or some easy to tear
vinyl like plastic or coated fabric.
The Kokatat is made of 4.4 oz nylon that's Goretex treated. It must be about
ten times easier to fin cut a wetsuit (especially the new stretchy neoprene)
than to get a fin to go thru 4.4 oz. Nylon.
Why do you think they use layed nylon to make the "ballistic nylon" used in
race car and fighter aircraft fuel tanks, and for many of the pre Kevlar
bullet proof vests. I think the reason is fairly obvious, nylon is tough
stuff, very tear resistant, cut resistant, and actually able to stop bullets
if layered.
I can almost assure you if you manage to get a fin thru the Kokatat fabric,
the tear in the suit will be the least of your immediate worries.
Blood loss from the wound underneath will be your big problem.
Plus the Kokatat is double fabric on the front of the legs, and around the
ankles and wrists/neck so that the seals are protected.
If you are not sailing in full on waves where you need to dive to get under
things, I see no reason not to use a Kokatat!
If you really burped all the air out of the suit, you could then dive under
things as easily as in a wetsuit. But with all the air out of the suit, it's
not as warm, unless you wear more layers underneath.
If you want maximum comfort, maximum ease of getting your suit on and off, and
you want a suit you can wear all day long comfortably, including between
sessions in 20 knot plus very cold winds, try a Kokatat.
If you are under 5'7" and 170 lbs, come try mine. I'll bet you order one
at your earliest opportunity.
later
Roger
>
>
sailquik US 3704 Ph.(301)872-9459 (In So. MD)
LvL I Instuctor (252)995-3204 (In Avon, NC)
F2/MPB/Sailworks/Tectonics/True Ames/Chinook/Kokatat/Da Kine
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
jfe...@ix.netcom.com
currently have an O'neil dry suit which, while warm, is very
tiring to sail in.
I race dinghys through the winter ("frostbiting" it's called)
and I own a Douglas Gill nylon dry suit. I have seen the
kokatat dry suits and they seem MUCH tougher than my
Douglas Gill. I would not windsurf with the Douglas Gill.
I am thinking of buying a kokatat suit.
I am not so much worried about a failure of the nylon as a
failure of the latex seal or the zipper. These are the weak
links, especially as the latex ages. Older latex develops
little tiny cracks that do not go through the material, so it
is still dry. When it goes, it can fail catastrophically, i.e.
a really big tear. I have seen these cracks develop after
about one year of use. From what I have seen, the latex is
the same from one manufacturer to the next.
jeff
Paul Scrutton
In article <36BF15...@ix.netcom.com>,
Well, you might get more info from polling the rec.boats.paddle newsgroup,
so I'm cross-posting it. However, my 2 cents is that I've been around plenty of
folks who have had gaskets replaced on their dry tops/suits. It seems that
gaskets do degrade over time. I have personally had to reglue a gasket where the
glue seal that attached the nylon to the latex came apart. I haven't had my
drysuit/top long enough to develop a catastrophic tear in it yet, Do they
typically catastrophically fail when you are putting them on - I'd guess that
this is what normally happens as this is when they are stretched the most.
--
Paul Scrutton
My views may not agree with those of employer.
--
Paul Scrutton
My views may not agree with those of employer.
Dpou246
for7 years.It's made by Stohlquist, which is similar to Kokatat.The nylon is in
great shape.I had to replace my neck seal once, two years ago.Unfortunately I
stored the suite without rincing the sunblock from the seal.I've sailed in 38
dr air and I was toasty.This suit is by far the most comfortable I've ever
worn.On the down side, is not that great if you are going to spent all day in
the wash and tumble cycle.I use a seat harness and I have not seen any wear
areas yet.If you slalom-bump and jump sail it is the suit to have.
sail...@ameritel.net
jfe...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I've also been considering a baggy suit for windsurfing. I
> currently have an O'neil dry suit which, while warm, is very
> tiring to sail in.
> I am thinking of buying a kokatat suit.
Go for it!
> I am not so much worried about a failure of the nylon as a
> failure of the latex seal or the zipper. These are the weak
> links, especially as the latex ages. Older latex develops
> little tiny cracks that do not go through the material, so it
> is still dry. When it goes, it can fail catastrophically, i.e.
> a really big tear. I have seen these cracks develop after
> about one year of use. From what I have seen, the latex is
> the same from one manufacturer to the next.
Not sure about the "one manufacturer" thing, but Kokatat recommends
very specific care and feeding of the latex seals.
It says to coat the seals with "303" protectant every few weeks, and
about once every 6 weeks or so when the suit is being stored.
Plus Kokatat will redo the seals when you send the suit in for reconditioning.
The double nylon/velcro flaps over the seals seem to do an extremely good
job of completely protecting the seals from UV and physical damage.
On my suit if I lost a seal, the water entry would be less that the average
wesuit due to the integrity of the flaps/velcro.
I've done the seals on mine twice now, and the latex seems to revert to almost
new when you put on the "303".
later
NLW TFW NM
may as well have been wearing a large funnel on my wrist.
Mike \m/
jfe...@ix.netcom.com
of latex seals generally occurs when people are putting the suits on.
still, i am a little worried that it could happen on the water.
it is natural to put off replacing the seals untill they are
pretty bad. i've head that the protectant that they sell does
help. replacement costs about $150 and might require sending the
suit away. I've heard that it's difficult to do yourself.
jeff
Paul Scrutton wrote:
>
> In article <36BF15...@ix.netcom.com>,
> jfe...@ix.netcom.com writes:
> |> I've also been considering a baggy suit for windsurfing. I
> |> currently have an O'neil dry suit which, while warm, is very
> |> tiring to sail in.
> |>
> |> I race dinghys through the winter ("frostbiting" it's called)
> |> and I own a Douglas Gill nylon dry suit. I have seen the
> |> kokatat dry suits and they seem MUCH tougher than my
> |> Douglas Gill. I would not windsurf with the Douglas Gill.
> |>
> |> I am thinking of buying a kokatat suit.
> |> I am not so much worried about a failure of the nylon as a
> |> failure of the latex seal or the zipper. These are the weak
> |> links, especially as the latex ages. Older latex develops
> |> little tiny cracks that do not go through the material, so it
> |> is still dry. When it goes, it can fail catastrophically, i.e.
> |> a really big tear. I have seen these cracks develop after
> |> about one year of use. From what I have seen, the latex is
> |> the same from one manufacturer to the next.
> |>
Ted Marz
>
>In article <36BF15...@ix.netcom.com>,
> jfe...@ix.netcom.com writes:
snip
>|>
>|> I am thinking of buying a kokatat suit.
>|> I am not so much worried about a failure of the nylon as a
>|> failure of the latex seal or the zipper. These are the weak
>|> links, especially as the latex ages. Older latex develops
>|> little tiny cracks that do not go through the material, so it
>|> is still dry. When it goes, it can fail catastrophically, i.e.
>|> a really big tear. I have seen these cracks develop after
>|> about one year of use. From what I have seen, the latex is
>|> the same from one manufacturer to the next.
>|>
>|> jeff
>
snip stuff from Paul Scrutton, as well
>
Well, as a response from rec.boats.paddle... here I go.
I recently got a Kokatat drysuit.. 4 oz Goretex w/a relief zipper and
latex booties. I LOVE IT. I am a little concerned about durability
of the booties, but time will tell.
I have owned a dry-suit of one flavor or another for over 4 years, and
am on the first set of gaskets.. You have to maintain these things
religiously to get the best longevity.
0) Rinse it out (esp after salt water use)
1) Dry it out after every use, if possible.
2) Hang it up
3) Keep it away from combustion byproducts, they rot the latex
(i.e. not in the garage, not in the basement by the water
heater/furnace)
4) Maintain the gaskets with SealSaver or (better) 303.
5) Inspect the gaskets, and when an edge tear (nick) starts,
get a patch on it, before it runs (bicycle tire patches work OK).
Ted Marz
Jimmy & Courtney Nipper
>0) Rinse it out (esp after salt water use)
>1) Dry it out after every use, if possible.
>2) Hang it up
I agree. Take good care of it. When you hang it up, make sure you hang it
on a plastic hanger as the metal hangers slowly eat at the gaskets
(according to the reps). I owned a Kokatat Dry Top for 6 years and paddle
about 2 to 3 times a week year round. I'm amazed that the gaskets lasted
that long but I was always very good to my top. My neck gasket finally
"melted" a couple of months ago. My hair was long and I used to put
conditioner is it as to not have giant tangles when I got off the river and
I think this had something to do with it "melting". I would highly
recommend Kokatat.
Courtney
NLW TFW NM
suit away. I've heard that it's difficult to do yourself."
On my Ronnies and the old red bag dry suits from the early 80s, new wrist seals
were available locally at any kayak/REI/mountain&river sporting goods shop for
<$20, and took me 15 minutes to install. Neck seal wasn't much worse.
Mike \m/
Ross Fleming
if they zip from the top down.
On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:55:02 -0500, jfe...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>you are right paul, from what i have seen the catastrophic failure
>of latex seals generally occurs when people are putting the suits on.
>still, i am a little worried that it could happen on the water.
Getting a suit with the neoprene outer seals would help prevent water
ingress if the seals fail and also helps to protect the seals.
>it is natural to put off replacing the seals untill they are
>pretty bad. i've head that the protectant that they sell does
>help. replacement costs about $150 and might require sending the
>suit away. I've heard that it's difficult to do yourself.
Replacing seals is not difficult. You should be able to purchase
seals at a water sports or dive shop locally if you can't order direct
from the mfg. The hardest part is finding an object to keep the
opening spread out while you replace the seal. I think I used a
mixing bowl when I replaced the neck seal.
--------------------------------------------
Ross Fleming
ross...@serv.net
sail...@ameritel.net
ross...@serv.net wrote:
> Front entry suits alleviate the need for a relief zipper, especially
> if they zip from the top down.
Ross: I'll have to disagree with you here as there are no windsurfing, or
kayaking dry suits out there that I am aware of that have a zipper down (ie
vertical) the front. Most front entry drysuits/steamers/wesuits have a zipper
up on the chest, or in the case of the Kokatat, it runs from mid chest on the
left side, diagonally up and over the right shoulder. So, if you wish to
"relieve yourself", you must take the suit almost completely off which is
extra unnecessary wear and tear on the latex seals at the cuffs and neck.
Peeling down a wetsuit or drysuit in very cold conditons is waay less that
fun or comfortable. A relief zipper means you may not have to take the suit
off all day, saving alot of wear and tear on the suit, the dry zippers, and
the sailor inside. Works for me!
Jason Hyatt
can anyone recommend a good place to find a kokotat goretex suit for
a decent price???
I found one for 612USD. hey! that's a great deal more than a
tight drysuit!!! about twice as much!!
email me, please...
PS anyone got a used one?? mens large. i'm willing to replace the gaskets
and get the thing overhauled, if the price is right.
--
***********************************************************
Jason Hyatt 384 Woods Hole Road
Oceanographer Woods Hole, MA 02543
USGS 508 457 2330
Woods Hole Field Center jhy...@usgs.gov
http://www.crusty.er.usgs.gov/rsignell.html
***********************************************************
"The principal obstructions to creativity are self-imposed"
(or imposed by UNIX and MATLAB syntax...)
(Pete Cresswell)
> The hardest part is finding an object to keep the
>opening spread out while you replace the seal.
For the arms, I use quart Ricotta cheese containers. They are tapered and about
the right diameter. A little duct tape holds it all together while the
AquaSeal sets up.
For the neck, I use some wax paper over the hood of my car and about thirty
little magnets. The neck hole lays flat on the wax paper, held in place by
magnets outside of the glue line. Then you apply the neck gasket and move the
magnets one-by-one on top of the gasket's contact area.
I really, *really*, REALLY, *REALLY* wish somebody would start selling molded
(not cut and sewn...) dry suit gaskets made out of the same neoprene foam that
they use in neck entry suits.
-----------------------
Pete Cresswell
NLW TFW NM
after my first pee in a dry suit today in many years, I'm gonnna try 'em out! I
hate peeing in a dry suit, and hate staying thirsty all day just to minimize
it.
Mike \m/
Ross Fleming
>Ross: I'll have to disagree with you here as there are no windsurfing, or
>kayaking dry suits out there that I am aware of that have a zipper down (ie
>vertical) the front.
My Musto drysuit has a diagonal front zip from the right hip
to the left shoulder and I have seen other suits with similar diagonal
front zips. I believe that you are correct and that there are no
vertical front zip drysuits for recreational use. I prefer the
diagonal front zip for ease of entry/exit rather than the traditional
horizontal rear zip that requires a relief zip no matter what.
> Most front entry drysuits/steamers/wesuits have a zipper
>up on the chest, or in the case of the Kokatat, it runs from mid chest on the
>left side, diagonally up and over the right shoulder. So, if you wish to
>"relieve yourself", you must take the suit almost completely off which is
>extra unnecessary wear and tear on the latex seals at the cuffs and neck.
>Peeling down a wetsuit or drysuit in very cold conditons is waay less that
>fun or comfortable. A relief zipper means you may not have to take the suit
>off all day, saving alot of wear and tear on the suit, the dry zippers, and
>the sailor inside. Works for me!
It is quite possible to use pee out of this opening without
removing the neck or wrist seals if you have the proper body parts.
If it zips from the top down like mine you don't have to fully open
the zipper. It gets pretty exciting trying to do this when you are
sailing a Laser ( a singlehanded sailing dinghy www.laser.org) in a
good breeze but I haven't fallen overboard or capsized while peeing so
far. I only use this suit for sailing now, I tried to windsurf in it
a couple of times but found it difficult to swim in because the legs
trapped too much air.
--------------------------------------------
Ross Fleming
ross...@serv.net
b...@spam_sync.com
I take care of business immediately before putting on the suit and then
don't drink too much. I can usually get through 4 hours without
problem. For places without bathrooms or adequate "woods", I use a pee
bottle - got the idea from a Campmor catalog.
Ben
--
Ben Kaufman
antispam: To Email me, change domain from spam_sync to pobox.
- 02/11/99
Craig gsogh Goudie
nlwt...@aol.com (NLW TFW NM) wrote:
> I once laughed (to myself) at a guy wearing Depends under his wet suit. But
> after my first pee in a dry suit today in many years, I'm gonnna try 'em out!
I
> hate peeing in a dry suit, and hate staying thirsty all day just to minimize
> it.
You guys should just peel down and pee, jeeze, even in my O'Neil drysuit
(which is in my opinion the most difficult to get in and out of of any
drysuit), I can still be back on the water in 15 minutes (and loaded with
liquid).
Not hydrating properly, like staying thirsty all day, is probably costing
more in exhaustion, than the time you'd spend off the water getting new
hydration and removing waste byproducts. It's more than a little risky
for producing kidney stones, which I can tell you from experience in the Gorge
are no fun at all.
Just pee, but if yur gonna do it in yur drysuit, stand a little ways down
wind of me when ya open up, will ya.
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
Star 288, Gem 8'10" Bailey 8'6" with
Naish Sails and Meritex Fins
Thomas Degel
water as you: Why not go ashore and take it off? I pee 3 times a day on a 12 hour
basis, and if you get rid of the initial urge before you don your suit (water
contact will always do that to you) then you should have about 3 hours of "battery
time".
And may I suggest donning a condome if you can't hold yourself.
NLW TFW NM wrote:
> I once laughed (to myself) at a guy wearing Depends under his wet suit. But
> after my first pee in a dry suit today in many years, I'm gonnna try 'em out! I
> hate peeing in a dry suit, and hate staying thirsty all day just to minimize
> it.
>
> Mike \m/
--
;-)
Thomas Degel HTTP://www.iir.dk
IIR Danmark; Amaliegade 5C, 2. sal.; DK-1256 København K; Danmark
Tlf: (+45) 33377000 Fax: (+45) 33377010 TD direkte: (+45) 33377022
Paul Scrutton
In article <36c25736...@news.serv.net>,
ross...@serv.net (Ross Fleming) writes:
|> Front entry suits alleviate the need for a relief zipper, especially
|> if they zip from the top down.
|>
Mine doesn't. After drinking a lot of coffee Sun am last weekend prior to
paddling, I had to remove everything twice to take care of business. I use a
front entry Stoliquist drysuit. Next one I buy is definitely having the relief
zipper.
NLW TFW NM
paddling, I had to remove everything twice to take care of business."
Gee, reckon there's a simpler solution? 8<)
Mike \m/
NLW TFW NM
I was alone, half a mile upwind because I was overpowered by a meter or
moreafter the wind surged (4.7, occasional liquid smoke). I wasn't the least
bit sure I could unzip and rezip my suit by hand alone, but WAS sure I was
having a urinary emergency.
But even in ordinary condtions, I hate to struggle ashoreand carry my buffetted
gear across the rocks barefooted with cold feet, remove harness and float
jacket, undress, take care of business, put all that clammy stuff back on,
walk across the rocks again, jump back in that cold water, and miss 15 minutes
of precious wind in the process. We KNOW it's gonna quit unexpectedly a any
moment, so we don't want to miss any of it, let alone expose our torso to that
cold wind.
Sometimes we just gotta take lessons from the astronauts and fighter
jocks.Besides, urine is completely sanitary, so until bactria from elsewhere
act on it, it's only a mental problem.
The suit and the polypro are still soaking in a tub of soapy water.
Mike \m/
sail...@ameritel.net
>|> Front entry suits alleviate the need for a relief zipper, especially
> |> if they zip from the top down.
> |>
>
> Mine doesn't. After drinking a lot of coffee Sun am last weekend prior to
> paddling, I had to remove everything twice to take care of business. I use a
> front entry Stoliquist drysuit. Next one I buy is definitely having the relief
> zipper.
You will be sOOOOooooo glad that you did. Are you sure they can't retrofit
a relief zipper? I know Kokatat will do this!
later
sailquik US 3704 Ph.(301)872-9459 (In So. MD)
LvL I Instuctor (252)995-3204 (In Avon, NC)
F2/MPB/Sailworks/Tectonics/True Ames/Chinook/Kokatat/Da Kine
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ed Smith
> you are right paul, from what i have seen the catastrophic failure
> of latex seals generally occurs when people are putting the suits on.
>
> still, i am a little worried that it could happen on the water.
> it is natural to put off replacing the seals untill they are
> pretty bad. i've head that the protectant that they sell does
> help. replacement costs about $150 and might require sending the
> suit away. I've heard that it's difficult to do yourself.
>
> jeff
I have an old Stolquist one piece dry suit I probably bought 15 years
ago. I've replaced every gasket in the suit at least once, some twice.
They are actually easy to replace. The trick is to find a hard shaped
object that comes close to uniformally stretching the opening just right.
A bowl as well as a rounded drinking glass have worked well for me. (The
bowl for the neck gasket).
I've ripped out gaskets both getting into and out of the suit. Not that
I'm frantic to get in or out, they just wear over time. Never leave your
suit just hanging in the sun, especially after wear. This really weakens
the gaskets quickly. You can visually inspect gaskets and tell how they
are doing. When you notice little cracks/wrinkles in the rubber, it's
about time to replace.
I've also repaired a 3" rip in one of the legs in the suit (bad swim, long
story). I used some very thin rubber I got out of a rubber raft patch kit
and barge cement. I roughed up both surfaces pretty good and let the
barge almost completely dry on both surfaces before applying. It's still
on there and water tight after about 7 years.
Stay dry and warm
Ed
Paul Scrutton
In article <19990212114040...@ng40.aol.com>,
nlwt...@aol.com (NLW TFW NM) writes:
|> RE:"After drinking a lot of coffee Sun am last weekend prior to
|> paddling, I had to remove everything twice to take care of business."
|>
|>
|> Mike \m/
Sure, but I'm not too keen on being asleep and on the water.
Paul Scrutton
In article <7a22ir$pj1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
I've heard that this is possible, but pricy ($100 or so). I may move up a size
and switch to goretex, as it sure seems a bit tighter than it was a few years ago
when I bought it.
(Pete Cresswell)
> I pee 3 times a day on a 12 hour
>basis, and if you get rid of the initial urge before you don your suit (water
>contact will always do that to you) then you should have about 3 hours of "battery
>time".
That's now. Wait about 30 years.....
-----------------------
Pete Cresswell
RJ Associates
must be the hit of the party. :)
Rich
NLW TFW NM
marks, you
must be the hit of the party. :)"
Guess I'd fit right in at certain west coast venues. Fortunately the panty hose
idea is for those rare combinations of icy water demanding booties (which I
wear less than once per year) and isolated boondocks, and I think my bladder's
good for a few more years before I consider the Depends. I hope.
Mike \m/
Pete Dumbleton
recommending the use of a traffic cone as a 'one size eventually
fits all' stretcher...
On 12 Feb 1999, Ed Smith wrote:
>
> I have an old Stolquist one piece dry suit I probably bought 15 years
> ago. I've replaced every gasket in the suit at least once, some twice.
> They are actually easy to replace. The trick is to find a hard shaped
> object that comes close to uniformally stretching the opening just right.
> A bowl as well as a rounded drinking glass have worked well for me. (The
> bowl for the neck gasket).
\/----->>snippped>>-----\/
oo oo