Windsurfing Mag highlighting Hifly Madd 135
Dennis Holmes
Madd was one of a very few boards listed since there are no changes to the
design this year. Is this board really all that they claim it to be? Early
planning, good speed, great maneuverability for a big board.
Thanks
Dennis
Bill
news:vnf3j3k...@corp.supernews.com...
Sailquik, etc.) in past postings have very strongly disparaged twin fin
designs, based on their own experiences, but in a manner that suggested no
one should have any hope for this approach. The glowing article described
in WS mag flies in the face of their experience, and for reasons that have
some importance: handling and shallow water clearance. Further, in weedy
AND shallow water, smaller twin weed fins should have an additional
advantage over the large weed fin. Large weed fins that work get cumbersome
and may even make tuning difficult (verbal comment from Frank Weston and
personal experience).
Glad to see that those not biased by the history appreciate the benefits and
that Klaus Joachim (and at least one builder in OZ) have pursued it.
The Dog
So maybe I'm not one "of the more seasoned sailors" but I checked out
the board in question during the demo days of Surf Expo. And while I
was probably one of many who thought twinzers was a bad idea
beforehand, the Madd has me rethining. I spent less than an hour on
the board in weedy conditions, but I was truly impressed in the first
few minutes...
The Madd jumped very quickly onto a plane with very little effort
using a 7.5 (I had to give quick pumps for other boards). I had
trouble with weed induced spinout on all other boards, but the Madd
drove through them even when I could see weeds hanging on one of the
fins. The 135 went upwind as well as any other board I sailed during
the demos. Hard carving turns seemed flatter, but were done in just
as tight a radius. And when I landed wrong on the chop hop, the
bpard was forgiving and quickly recovered. As for speed, that's a
tough call. It certainly moved very well. But a "scary fast" board
is sometimes slower than something well behaved. And the Madd is
well behaved. I'd need a radar gun to know if it was fast.
It's unfortunate that the Madd is a twinzer on what will be a
relatively high MSRP board.... Because I liked it.
Dan Weiss
performance parameters. They are not necessarily important for most
sailors. Good technique does more to improve handling than swapping one fin
for two, and all out performance advantage of a single fin in light to
moderate air (the board's target range) is proven beyond reasonable dispute.
That said, for those forced to sail in the shallows, I can't think of a
better way to go than multiple short fins.
--
-Dan
"Bill" <utthi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bl85k2$8lld8$1...@ID-127845.news.uni-berlin.de...
Bill Kline
I am not sure if I disparaged twin fins or not, but as one in the fin business,
but the idea could double fin sales. This sport is first for sailors. We in the
industry are sailors too:)
I had a twin fin Cobra from WS Hawaii I bought in Kailua from Larry Stanley in
1980. i enjoyed in in the Gorge as we sailed almost alone. I sure had fun!
Those were great days!
Most of my research is asking sailors who bought twin fins how they like them.
Most like them for the kids, light winds, some in shallow water. Wind were
light at the test and as the review from the Dog is excellent! Those who bought
ofr this use are VERY happy, even as they add more boards to there collection.
The downside is when the wind comes up, it may be fun for some, but single fin
is far better, (so I guess fin sales will not double, less packing and
invoicing, more sailing:))
I have spent much time around light wind for research on the beach. But on any
light wind board the fin selected is far more critical for learners that
whether it is twin or not.
Hi Fly has some great board. Eric Skemp , who runs the company is a mentor and
leader in our industry. They do a great job
>Subject: Re: Windsurfing Mag highlighting Hifly Madd 135
>From: "Bill" utthi...@hotmail.com
>Date: 9/28/2003 7:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bl85k2$8lld8$1...@ID-127845.news.uni-berlin.de>
Bill Kline
Gorge Sport USA
Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins, Orca Kite Fins
Hood River, OR USA
www.gsport.com
ph/541 387 2649 fax/541 386 1715
jeff feehan
clearly recall stating that the only twin fin board i had
sailed (the big bic techno) was probably a very poor platform
for testing the concept. i always thought that the idea was
worth further development, and i am happy to see that someone
has tried it on what seems to be a much better board. that bic
(i think it was the 293) was a pig of a board that would have
been slow and clunky with any fin arangement.
for both the designer and the consumer, windsurfing gear is the
product of many compromises. it certainly can be well worth
giving up a little efficiency in the underwater foils to get
a board that can be sailed in shallow water.
jeff feehan
WARDOG
Bill,
I have always encouraged twinfins on larger boards...
Please don't lump me in with Bill Kline and others that believe
sailboard fins need to look like airplane wings...
Just do a quick Google search on "WARDOG" and "airplane wings" and
you'll see where I stand...
I actually use the products I comment on, in the conditions that I aim
the comments at...
I have never "disparaged" this concept...only encouraged and challenged
board and interested fin designers to spend the time and money necessary
to get outside of their box to achieve performance...
I have experimented with multi-fin sailboards and surfboards prolly as
much or more than anyone on this planet...I rode twinfin and Bonzers in
the 70's...rode one of the very first trifins in North America in the
early 80's...rode a 5 fin 6'4" in giant waves at the Mexican Pipeline
(Puerto Escondido) and currently own 2 Twinzers (4 fins)
http://www.surfingsports.com/images/wardog_twinzers.jpg
That said, we have also added the HiFly lineup to our product line for
'04 in support of their efforts on the Madd 135, and will be spending
more serious sailing time on this product.
Here's a paper trail of my support on this NG for the HiFly Madd and
twinfin adaptation to widetails that should exonerate me:
From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Subject: Re: What is twinzer?
Newsgroups: rec.windsurfing
Date: 2002-05-29 09:22:55 PST
Wolfgang Soergel wrote:
> i think that the twin fin concept may be one way to target a
> specific, but not too narrow, market. Single fin boards in all
> variations are very probable to stay around but i don;t see why a 2 (or
> 3) fin concept should not be possible, inbetween 80cm single fins in
> Formula baords and 5-finned bonzers.
WARDOG adds:
I agree...I know that this area has not been explored enough for anyone
to make a definitive statement about performance. This is an outside the
box problem, and the efforts so far, lie squarely within the confines of
the box. Concaves, rail/hull design and multifin geometry creating
laminar flow, can help reduce drag coefficients associated with
multifins. The success of the effort need not just be measured on the
race course, either.
Here are a couple of posts that I have written on this subject
containing some good links to pics and info of some sailors who are
thinking outside of the box:
I've been advocating for twin fin widebodies for a couple of years.
I've mentioned it several times on this NG.
There hasn't been an honest attempt at making it work, that I know of.
The Hi Fly Madd is the closest production effort to date and it is
lacking because of the supplied fins. Nobody that I know of, has used
anything different.
It will take someone willing to think outside of the box, instead of
saying that it can't work and then citing an example of an airplane wing
or going on about drag coefficients.
There is a rail/fin relationship that generates lateral resistance in
coordination with the sail and sailor and determines AOA and boat speed.
I know that when I am riding the GO 170, only the back corner of the
board and the fin is touching the H20. On shortboards there is a
relationship between footstrap placement and the fin...it seems that a
fin could be placed in the same area on each side of a widebody.
I think that the fin(s) and possibly the hull may not look like what is
currently available or may incorporate a fin/keel combo or
hydrofoil...there may be some sort of an integrated retractable system.
The problem is, that windsurfing is not the America's Cup with a large
R&D budget. Another problem is that as soon as someone figures it out,
someone else will duplicate it and make the money that the originator
should have made for his/her effort and originality.
It's blind man's bluff right now at the cutting edge of Formula with
bragging rights and unit sales at stake...I don't see anyone with the
capital to deviate from the current course and still stay in the race.
It will take lots of failures and a trial and error approach...
maybe Ted Turner or Bill Koch will start windsurfing and help us
out...;-)
What needs to happen is for someone with dinero and desire to
think outside of the box. It is going to be a fin, hull, rail, keel kind
of deal...here are some ideas:
http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/Seafliertext.htm
http://www.foils.org/miller.htm
http://www.foils.org/sailbord.htm
Possibly twin keel for example:
http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Boat%20Designs/Grenada%2024/twinkeel.htm
From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Subject: Re: Starboard START - Fin questions
Newsgroups: rec.windsurfing
Date: 2002-02-12 20:25:58 PST
> > Will, a report from an experienced hand is going to be interesting. Some of
> > us think there's a lot of potential hidden in a Start.
WARDOG writes:
I do too...we might have Eva convert to twin fin...I've been saying that
this might blow the widetail thing open...one under each
footstrap...also, thinking about refoiling that center fin or trying a
smaller keel with a smaller rear fin.
From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Subject: Re: What board for 44cm weed fin?
Newsgroups: rec.windsurfing
Date: 2002-03-14 07:10:42 PST
WARDOG offers:
> I think the closest you are going to get is with a twinfin HiFly Madd.
> 136ltrs 72cm wide 273 length. This board is a great idea for shallow
> water with weeds.
> Planes up quick and will give you that turny feeling you are looking
> for.
From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Subject: Re: MADD 274 vs Starboard C 151
Newsgroups: rec.windsurfing
Date: 2002-05-29 10:41:28 PST
Brett wrote:
> > Our shop sells both Starboard and HiFly, and I will be the first to say
> > they are both excellent for fun in light wind.
> >
> > I own a Madd. For shallow, weedy water it is the right choice.
WARDOG counters:
I don't think you were the first to say it, Brett...;-)
I don't sell HiFly, but have sailed the Madd and I agree with your
synopsis. A fun, practical board, is not always the fastest...especially
in shallow water or where weeds exist...neither is the fastest board in
the world dragging around weeds or with the fin stuck in the mud.
From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Subject: Re: Why not Twin Fins?
Newsgroups: rec.windsurfing
Date: 2002-10-10 12:29:28 PST
Dan Weiss wrote:
> I sailed a few Naish and Bic twinzers in the mid 90s and loved how loose and
> skaty they felt
WARDOG adds:
I love my twinzer surfboards for the same reason:
http://www.surfingsports.com/images/wardog_twinzers.jpg
Loose and skatey feeling...here's the kicker...they are faster than a
single fin or a thruster surfboard...water gets channeled between the
fins and the boards accelerate by pumping them down the line, gaining
speed by gravity moves on the wave...bonzer effect, without the drag of
the rear, center fin...
http://scsurfers.com/board/twinzers.html
WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com
Ray Kuntz
The BIC 293 definitely was a pig, but the single fin Tiga version of it
was rumored to be much more usable.
Ray
WillV
Funny how this thread has come up again... If you remember, my first
sailing experience in La Ventana was renting gear and I sailed the HiFly
MADD twin fin and was pleasantly surprised as I had to sail an 8.5 rig on it
and it sailed pretty good.
Anyway, for you Dennis - just another data point... my experiences with it
in "bay sailing" (smallish chop - but regular and sometimes steep) in La
Ventana, Baja MX:
I liked it with a 7.5 or 8.5M sails as it felt fairly loose underfoot - it
did feel big in choppy water, and it didn't feel exceptionally fast in those
conditions - but it did provide me with TOW and jibe "attempts" - even
jumped it a bit too.
I really liked the twin fin concept and was hoping for that concept to make
it over to "formula-style" wide boards...not here yet.
Good luck with your board selection.... I can tell you this - you won't
need twin fins if you get one of Wardog's "Weed-Wave" fins - a very good
choice if you have weeds and/or shallow H2O - and gives you many more hull
choices.
Good luck,
-WillV-
"WARDOG" <moon...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3F783B50...@cox.net...
WARDOG
(and refresh Bill's memory...both Bill's...;-), here are some of Bill
Kline's twin fin comments in B&W:
It should be stated upfront, he admits that he hasn't sailed a two
finned board since 1980...
> I really do noy know what to say about twin fins. I had a Windsurfing Hawaii
> Cobra in 1980. IT had short twin fins, square tail, very stable sailing the
> Gorge almost alone.
>
> Now the new ones. I do need to sail the Madd to see which fins work good.
>
> We are making replacemen ttwin fins for the Bic. Also will have twin weed fins
> available soon.
>
> Wish I had more to say. There is a lot for me to learn.
> I would recommend the the Tiga 293 instead, Single fins are far better.
>
> The handling is better and you will learn faster. If two fins were better than
> one, we would push the hell out of them since we are in the fin business,
>
> Plus with twin fin your fin costs almost double since the stock fins are bad
> ok, I know we could sell twice as many fins.
> Twin fins are good marketing for beginners. They seem to enjoy them in light
> wind
> I do not believe twin fin is the solution here.
WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com
Bill Kline
given product.
Especially important is to hear direct feedback from the rider using that
product.
Today, for example I am on the edge of the Baltic in Dranske, Germany. The
World Formula Championship begins Wednesday. Winds were 14 to 20 knots,
raining, air temp. around 54 or so. I left the water getting comments on new
designs just before the sun set.
From this, a better understanding emerges.
The process is all the same whether the feedback comes from beginners who like
twin fin boards or the world's elite now gathered.
There is much feedback to gather, rain or shine:)
Bill Kline
That Tiga 293, I did like, but it was undersold. I sailed it in the shallows of
Bonaire where our fins are used for the Jibe City rental program. I used the
Curtis DC33 and it was fun.
The same fin setup was often used for those learning, also it worked great. We
work with many schools and good fin setups make single fin boards work well.
The Tiga 293 with good fins really goes, whether shallow, speed or maneuvers.
It is very stable and fun!
Bill
>Subject: Re: Windsurfing Mag highlighting Hifly Madd 135
>From: Ray Kuntz rku...@ndak.net
>Date: 9/28/2003 7:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3F779B1F...@ndak.net>
WARDOG
Bill Kline wrote:
> from beginners who like
> twin fin boards or the world's elite now gathered.
Beginners who like twin fin boards are on one side of the spectrum?!?!
Try thinking outside the box...
> > My preference has been and will be to observe what the sailor is doing on the
> > given product.
Eyes wide shut...
Bill, it may come as a surprise to you, since you stopped riding your
one and only twinfin in 1980, that some of the world's most elite
sailors (wavesailors) have ridden them in some of the world's most
challenging waves...
Dave Kalama and Ian Boyd quickly come to mind...
Not to mention trifins...people that like them, must really be
beginners, huh?!?!
Just think, Bill...you could sell 3X as many fins...;-)
Not everyone considers windsurfing to be an "elite" sport who's fun is
measured by how fast they can get around a race course or going BAF in a
straight line as fast as they can...there are other metrics by which to
measure performance and fun...certainly not by the number(s) or length
of your fin...
WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com
Bill Kline
I was told at the dinner table the temperature was really around 50 degrees
here in Dranske today.
I had a good raincoat and hood, jeans and gloves got a little wet and my
running shoes are drying.
It was a great day to learn.
Bill
Bill
> I have experimented with multi-fin sailboards and surfboards prolly as
> much or more than anyone on this planet...I rode twinfin and Bonzers in
> the 70's...rode one of the very first trifins in North America in the
> early 80's...rode a 5 fin 6'4" in giant waves at the Mexican Pipeline
> (Puerto Escondido) and currently own 2 Twinzers (4 fins)
> http://www.surfingsports.com/images/wardog_twinzers.jpg
>
> That said, we have also added the HiFly lineup to our product line for
> '04 in support of their efforts on the Madd 135, and will be spending
> more serious sailing time on this product.
Any feedback, good or bad, is much appreciated, especially given all this
experience.
>
>>
> From: WARDOG (moon...@gte.net)
Wolfgang Soergel
>
> Yes, but big board handling and shallow water clearance are pretty distinct
> performance parameters. They are not necessarily important for most
> sailors.
As i've said before in similar threads: May depend on geographical
location. In Europe, many of the coastal sailing places frequented by
people sailing such boards (135l is a typical do-it-all board for
sailors who can plane an pop the occasional water start. But also well
suited to go on and learn more) are shallow (and often also weeded):
From Leucate in southern France, many spots in the Netherlands
(Isselmeer, Veluwemeer), Germany (Fehmarn and farther east), Denmark
(Rinkoeping Fjord, Limfjord), even Austria (Neusiedler See, after all a
place where freestyle worldcups have been held). The places are popular
because the water is flat, shallow and sheltered. Ideal learning places
for no-stress windsurfing. Fins over 40 or 50 cm are next to impossible
to use at many spots or at least require long walks and the constant
fear of hitting a sand bar. So clearance is important to many: all spots
mentioned are frequented by hundreds of sailors on good days.
And 135 liters isn't that big, especially if the shape isn't only
optimized wrt early planing but more allround. So handling is an issue.
Twin fins are probabely not the only answer to these challanges. But a
possible one and the HiFlies seem to be a good compromise. Contrary to
other twin fin boards before maybe.
> Good technique does more to improve handling than swapping one fin
> for two, and all out performance advantage of a single fin in light to
> moderate air (the board's target range) is proven beyond reasonable dispute.
Pure performance in the hands of a sailor who knows what to do: Without
doubt. But overall utility to Joe Weekend? Dunno.
> That said, for those forced to sail in the shallows, I can't think of a
> better way to go than multiple short fins.
At least it seams to be a very viable approach.
--
Wolfgang
pndscum
Dennis, I have had this board for a year. My opinion is that it's a
great board for "lake" sailing. Shallow weedy water, light to gusty
winds with a big sail. I sail it mostly on a lake with 8.8 down to
5.5. When you need a 5.5, the board is on the edge of it's comfort
range and it's time to go smaller. As for speed and maneuverability,
It's fast enough for it's size but not as fast as my old Xantos 295 II
in similar conditions. This isn't an opinion, I gave my son my old 295
II and he kicked my a** in many runs at Hatteras. (I hurts when your
son beats you on your old equipment)! It stays flat on the water, is
easy to jibe and goes up wind very well. Because of its early planeing
my TOW is much increased with this board. Downside:as with all wide
boards I've ridden, It doesn't have the lively ride of a traditional
shaped board but it's better than most. If you need weed fins, It
works well with a pair of 26 cm Orca weedrides. I tested progressive
rake weed fins but they were unable to shed the grass at Hatteras.
Ron