NP sails: I like 'em
Hanumant Singh
weeks. My sympathies. I use a Fiberspar mast and have never used the NP.
However on reading articles against their sails...
> Both myself and a friend have had experiences with these NP twin-cam
>wave/slalom sails and all negative.
I have a NP twin-cam 5.0 wave/slalom myself and I positively love it. It is
mylar as opposed mono-film( I wanted a tough able-to-withstand-abuse sail :-))
and is fun to sail, easy to rig and I have bounced off of it more than a
couple of times. In short, it was a great buy ! In '92 they have replaced
the twin-cam line with their 4WD. Love to hear from someone who has one.
> Sailboard Warehouse nearly had a fit laughing when I tried to get
> warranty replacement for it.
Sounds like a Sailboard Warehouse problem to me...
We have been over the cheaper mail order vs slightly more expensive wholesale
place where, if you have a good rapport with the guy you buy from, you will
definitely get better warranty service.
Hanu
ha...@athena.mit.edu
8'4" Mistral Ecstasy (I use this almost exclusively, even with my 5.0, and
really like it)
'83 Rocket 99 !
'91 5.0 NP twin-cam wave/slalom, '88 4.0 Simmer, '88 3.4 NP World Cup Wave
Fiberspar Wave mast, Dakine booms.
Recognisable by being 6'0", 110 lbs. (Hi Brian!)
Will Estes
>I noticed the torrent of invective on Neil Pryde masts over the last few
>weeks. My sympathies. I use a Fiberspar mast and have never used the NP.
The Neil Pryde IS a Fiberspar. Neil Pryde OEMs the mast.
Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
Nick_Nikov
>ha...@jargon.whoi.edu (Hanumant Singh) writes:
>
>>I noticed the torrent of invective on Neil Pryde masts over the last few
>>weeks. My sympathies. I use a Fiberspar mast and have never used the NP.
>
>The Neil Pryde IS a Fiberspar. Neil Pryde OEMs the mast.
>
to remember is that Pryde may ask Fibrespar to make masts to Prydes specs.
This may explain why there are mixed reactions between Pryde and Fibrespar.
I am sure Pryde do not have there own mast manufacturing plant as yet.
You can try to lay the two together ans see any differences.
In most cases the original manufacturer makes a different product for many
reasons.
>Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
--
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Nick Nikov Internet (AARnet): ni...@agsm.unsw.oz.au
Australian Graduate School of Management, Tel: 61 2 931 9263
P.O. Box 1, Kensington. N.S.W. 2033. Fax: 61 2 662 7621
GARY BOATES
bottom. A freak accident really. His mast base came loose and flew out of
the box in a BIG gust and the bottom of the two-piece exploded. We drove
for 2.5 hours to a dealer that has Fibrespar and nothing fit as they make
two-piece masts by cutting a one-piece mast in two BUT the Dealer just
started with KC-Fibre as he dropped the North line. The bottom of the KC-
Fibre fit perfectly. We checked the bend as best we could and all seemed
OK. Just thought I'd mention it...
Kirk Lindstrom
>The Neil Pryde IS a Fiberspar. Neil Pryde OEMs the mast.
>
Imagine this conversation between NP and Fiberspar:
FS: "'ello NP, we have a problem with the last batch of masts we
made for you. Turns out that though they meet your specs, we've found
that the batch of epoxy we used is suspect. Our R&D engineer estimates
10-20% will break within 100 hours of sailing."
NP: "Thats OK, only a few die-hards will break the masts under
warrenty and the rest will last long past that time. We'll make more
money shipping them now (or selling what is in the shops, etc.) and dealing
with returns later. Thanks for the warning as we'll be sure to lay
aside money in our budget to handle the expected returns."
FS: "You're welcome. Just make sure you don't advertise you're masts as
made by FiberSpar as they aren't manufactured to our specifications."
NP: "No problem, nice doing business with ya. By the way, we'd like you
to give us a similar mast next year, but take another $10 off the price
you sell them to us".
FS: "Hmmmm, difficult. Maybe we can try a cheaper epoxy or a different
Carbon Fiber vendor. Hate to change vendors as we've gotten good service
from the reliable ones we've been using. I'll check with our R&D guys and
get back to ya. Of course we won't be making the switch as we are happy
with our masts the way they are now."
Don't believe this can happen? Then where do you suppose RadioShack and other
cheap places get their low cost components?
Sorry, Will. OEM'd doesn't mean squat. The reputation of who sold it to you
is what matters. Fiberspar has a good reputation.
Kirk (RadioShack doesn't have a GaAs foundry) out
Rolf Schreiber
My quiver consists exclusively of Neil Pryde sails. I didn't really plan it
this way - it just turned out that I got a good deal on buying them used,
and they all happened to be NP (bought from several different sources,
including fellow netters... Hi Dave :-)
I've had very good luck with all of them and haven't had any failures that
I would attribute to inferior design or materials. Some of these sails are
ancient but I still use them. Considering I paid $100-$200 per sail, I really
feel I've gotten my money's worth. The only problems I've had have been
with the batten straps wearing out (I've since put batten caps on the
problem sails), and having to re-stitch the seat for the battens along the
luff of one sail. But this seems like normal wear&tear to me. For comparison,
here's a list of what I've got and some comments.
Sail size(s) model and year(approx) Comments
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.7, 4.2, 4.6, 5.4 Early RAF wave 85-87 Oldies but goodies. They
don't twist off/handle as
well as newer sails, but
are very durable. Even after
5-7 years, these sails still
have a lot of sessions left
in them. Good thing, as it's
hard to justify buying small
sails when you live in SD.
6.3, 7.0 Warp Speed 87-88 I've really abused these sails
(3 permanent cambers) but haven't had any failures.
Very heavy and kinda hard to
handle, but work well in the
light air we get so often here.
A pain to rig because of the
non-removable cambers.
6.2 RAF Sprint 89 Pretty light, easy to handle
and rig. Like the Warp Speed
sails, wants a pretty stiff
mast to work right. Too bad
I broke my carbon mast. :-(
5.0 Wave/Slalom 91 My only new sail ever! No
(2 removable cambers) regrets - this sail works
great in both slalom and
wave conditions. Handles
great, the easily removable
cambers make it really
versatile. I got the mylar
version for durability, and
it's held up very well despite
major slams landing me on the
sail. Super quick to rig, as
both the outhaul/downhaul
pulleys are open-ended so you
don't have to thread anything.
I hope this doeasn't sound to much like a NP sails/sales pitch, it's just that
I've been very happy with the ones I have, especially since they cost me very
little to begin with. I can't offer any comments about NP masts or high-tech
booms. I do have two sets of "whatever gives you surf booms" made by Neil Pryde
which have lasted quite well considering they only cost $125. I managed to
kink one boom arm during a very scary, fully 4.2 powered slam, but again
this seems reasonable.
Your mileage may vary, and I'm sure there are just as many satisfied customers
of other sailmakers.
---
Rolf Schreiber Internet:ro...@ames.ucsd.edu
Applied Mechanics and Engineering Sciences UUCP: ...!ucsd!rolf
University of California at San Diego Voice: (619)534-5414
Will Estes
Kirk! Shame on you! To make such claims without specific proof is
grossly unfair, and in this case it is in fact totally incorrect. Your
note definitely insinuates that the Neil Pryde masts are made with lower
quality controls and lesser quality materials. In fact, I have talked
to numerous people at Fiberspar about this, mainly because I wanted to
know if I should buy their mast instead of Neil Pryde's. The Fiberspar
people assured me that they use the same materials and epoxies on the
Neil Pryde masts as they do on their own. The only difference is the
flex characteristics of the mast. Now I suppose you can speculate that
the Fiberspar people have all lied to me, but I guess you would have to
prove that too....
>Sorry, Will. OEM'd doesn't mean squat. The reputation of who sold it to you
>is what matters. Fiberspar has a good reputation.
It depends on the product. Half the VCRs sold in this country are OEMed versions
of Matsushita (Panasonic) machines. The quality between the different
machines is almost always identical. What changes from company to
company is the quality of the service and pricing.
Now, I think it is fair to complain if Neil Pryde doesn't do a good job
of servicing its products or honoring its warranties. And maybe some of
their equipment, like the NP booms, overload the masts and cause
breakage. And I'm not too happy myself about the fact that NP's mast
only works well with NP's sails. But that is a far cry from accusing NP
of deliberately asking Fiberspar to lower the quality of its product,
and also saying that Fiberspar would be willing to place an inferior
version of their product onto the market under someone else's label.
The situation happens, but not in this case, if I can believe what the
players involved have told me.
The Neil Pryde is a Fiberspar mast made by Fiberspar for Neil Pryde, and
it should exhibit the same quality of workmanship and materials as a
genuine Fiberspar mast. The only difference should be the flex
characteristics of the mast, which in NP's case have been tailored to
their sails.
Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
Will Estes
>Just some info re NP masts vs. Fibrespar... my friend broke his NP Carbon 60
>bottom. A freak accident really. His mast base came loose and flew out of
>the box in a BIG gust and the bottom of the two-piece exploded. We drove
By the way, most of the NP users I have spoken with agree that the
two-piece Carbon 60 is not very good by comparison with the one-piece.
The usual complaints are that the two-piece breaks easily if not
assembled perfectly and that the flex characteristics aren't as good.
Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
Nick_Nikov
>ki...@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kirk Lindstrom) writes:
>
>>>The Neil Pryde IS a Fiberspar. Neil Pryde OEMs the mast.
>>>
>>Yeah, and some HP LEDs can be found at Radio Shack too.
>
>
>Kirk! Shame on you! To make such claims without specific proof is
>grossly unfair, and in this case it is in fact totally incorrect. Your
>note definitely insinuates that the Neil Pryde masts are made with lower
>quality controls and lesser quality materials. In fact, I have talked
>to numerous people at Fiberspar about this, mainly because I wanted to
>know if I should buy their mast instead of Neil Pryde's. The Fiberspar
>people assured me that they use the same materials and epoxies on the
>Neil Pryde masts as they do on their own. The only difference is the
>flex characteristics of the mast. Now I suppose you can speculate that
>the Fiberspar people have all lied to me, but I guess you would have to
>prove that too....
>
>
different then the specs. are obviously different hence the quality MAY
be different. We are not comparing apples with apples and that is important.
There are many reasons for OEM and I would hope NPs reasons are in good
faith (if that is the right term). I think Kirk was giving a bit of humour
to a situation which was not in favour of a paying customer.
>>Sorry, Will. OEM'd doesn't mean squat. The reputation of who sold it to you
>>is what matters. Fiberspar has a good reputation.
>
>The Neil Pryde is a Fiberspar mast made by Fiberspar for Neil Pryde, and
>it should exhibit the same quality of workmanship and materials as a
>genuine Fiberspar mast. The only difference should be the flex
This is not necessarily true....(if could be in this case)
>characteristics of the mast, which in NP's case have been tailored to
>their sails.
>
You must realise that this is likely to be a marketing startegy....
Pryde will argue that their flex chars. are to get better performance
and this is always a grey area in respect to what is generally
expected to be an optimum mast. Like we have different sail types we
will have different mast types.
Kirk Lindstrom
The bottom line is this:
>>FS: "You're welcome. Just make sure you don't advertise you're masts as
>>made by FiberSpar as they aren't manufactured to our specifications."
>
>grossly unfair, and in this case it is in fact totally incorrect. Your
>note definitely insinuates that the Neil Pryde masts are made with lower
>quality controls and lesser quality materials. In fact, I have talked
>to numerous people at Fiberspar about this, mainly because I wanted to
>know if I should buy their mast instead of Neil Pryde's. The Fiberspar
>people assured me that they use the same materials and epoxies on the
>Neil Pryde masts as they do on their own. The only difference is the
>flex characteristics of the mast. Now I suppose you can speculate that
>the Fiberspar people have all lied to me, but I guess you would have to
>prove that too....
>
ICs they OEM. The truth is, marginal quality product can be shipped out
even though it fails specific quality checks. I was shopping for an epoxy
mast two years ago and found one at a store that had a large bubble in the
epoxy (a specific weak link). I almost bought it, then saw the bubble and
changed my mind. I pointed it out and the owner acted surprised and said they
certainly wouldn't sell it and would ship it back to the factory. Three weeks
later they still had the same mast for sale. I've seen blade fins with the
blade not alligned properly in the tuttle base (Rob H warned me about this).
Again I pointed it out to the shopkeeper (different shop) and I got almost the
same results.
Also, I never claimed that NP used inferior materials, rather I posed a
hypothetical conversation along the lines of those I know go on in another
industry where OEMing goes on all the time. Also, when you sign an OEM agree-
ment, you usually get "last year's design" (at least with the Japanese).
>
>>Sorry, Will. OEM'd doesn't mean squat. The reputation of who sold it to you
>>is what matters. Fiberspar has a good reputation.
>
>It depends on the product. Half the VCRs sold in this country are OEMed versions
>of Matsushita (Panasonic) machines. The quality between the different
>machines is almost always identical. What changes from company to
>company is the quality of the service and pricing.
>
>The Neil Pryde is a Fiberspar mast made by Fiberspar for Neil Pryde, and
>it should exhibit the same quality of workmanship and materials as a
>genuine Fiberspar mast. The only difference should be the flex
>characteristics of the mast, which in NP's case have been tailored to
>their sails.
>
>Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
>----------
Maybe, isn't flex characteristic and wall thickness/material/strength
related? (again humor to make a point) NP could say "we make our masts
1/2 the thickness of Fiberspars near the midpoint so we get the proper
bend that matches our specifications". The sad part could be that the
main specification is to reduce carbon content by 50% as it is very
expensive. What the NP guy told you and my hypothetical statement could
both be correct (i.e. 50% less carbon).
Again, I'm not saying this is true. Just that OEM'd doesn't mean squat.
Kirk out
Will Estes
>You are right in many ways but if as you mentioned the flex chars. are
>different then the specs. are obviously different hence the quality MAY
>be different. We are not comparing apples with apples and that is important.
>There are many reasons for OEM and I would hope NPs reasons are in good
>faith (if that is the right term). I think Kirk was giving a bit of humour
>to a situation which was not in favour of a paying customer.
Fair enough, and I know Kirk, so I'm not trying to give him a hard time.
Kirk, please forgive me for sounding like a hard ass! :)
It might be that the different flex characteristics on a NP mast make it
easier to break. However, that's a claim that needs some proof. It's
also a far cry from saying that NP and Fiberspar are making the product
with lower-quality materials and quality checks. The latter might also
be true, but it is also a claim that needs some proof. And I'm just
adding that this is an issue that I have raised with the folks at
Fiberspar several times, and their claim is that they use the same
materials on both masts and that their should not be a quality
difference between the two.
Thanks,
Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
Kirk Lindstrom
Fair enough! 8-)
Kirk out
Tom Albertz
> to numerous people at Fiberspar about this, mainly because I wanted to
> know if I should buy their mast instead of Neil Pryde's. The Fiberspar
> people assured me that they use the same materials and epoxies on the
> Neil Pryde masts as they do on their own. The only difference is the
I don't think you can trust everything people from Fiberspar
or Neil Pryde say. Personally, I don't think there's a lick
of difference between Fiberspar 460/30 Red and Neil Pryde masts.
I don't think there's any flex diffs or material diffs. The
only diff is the label. I doubt that special mandrels or
weaving patterns were developed for N.P. masts. If that were
true, Fiberspar wouldn't have a perfect mast for N.P. sails.
N.P. may have specified flex characteristics, but then why
wouldn't Fiberspar use the same process to make masts compat-
ible with N.P. sails??????? Certainly, they wouldn't want their
CC to be inferior to N.P.'s.
Will Estes
> I don't think you can trust everything people from Fiberspar
> or Neil Pryde say. Personally, I don't think there's a lick
> of difference between Fiberspar 460/30 Red and Neil Pryde masts.
> I don't think there's any flex diffs or material diffs. The
> only diff is the label. I doubt that special mandrels or
> weaving patterns were developed for N.P. masts. If that were
> true, Fiberspar wouldn't have a perfect mast for N.P. sails.
> N.P. may have specified flex characteristics, but then why
> wouldn't Fiberspar use the same process to make masts compat-
> ible with N.P. sails??????? Certainly, they wouldn't want their
> CC to be inferior to N.P.'s.
Well, I have had a number of dealers tell me that buying a Carbon 60 is
a cheap way to get a Fiberspar mast, and they have made the claim, like
you, that the NP mast is identical in all respects to the Fiberspar,
just the price is lower because of NP's quantity purchase.
Since I haven't tried to rig a Fiberspar 460/30 on a NP World Cup Slalom
or World Cup Race, I can't really verify or deny your claim. But it
would be nice to get to the heart of this and either verify or falsify
the claim that the NP product is of a lower quality than the Fiberspar
product. The NP mast takes a lot of abuse on this net suggesting that
it is defective and tends to break. It would be nice to see some facts
on this issue, for once, instead of just first-hand accounts on both
sides of the issue.
Will Estes Internet: wes...@netcom.com
Jim Paugh
>>bottom. A freak accident really. His mast base came loose and flew out of
>>the box in a BIG gust and the bottom of the two-piece exploded. We drove
>By the way, most of the NP users I have spoken with agree that the
>two-piece Carbon 60 is not very good by comparison with the one-piece.
>The usual complaints are that the two-piece breaks easily if not
>assembled perfectly and that the flex characteristics aren't as good.
I have a Fiberspar Performance(40% carbon) 460/30 CC 2 pc, which broke at
the ferrel a few weeks ago. The mast was 7 months old, and broke with the
sail rigged, while lying on the water(I had just entered the water). The
ferrel is epoxy/carbon, molded into the bottom piece. It was covered under
warranty, and Fiberspar happily replaced the mast for me (in fact, I
upgraded to the World Cup version, 60% carbon, for an extra $50). I asked
them if there was a greater incidence of breakage in two piece masts, and
they said no. Has anyone else had a problem with their 2 pc Fiberspars
breaking at the ferrel?? The mast that broke had a loose fit at the ferrel
connection. The replacement mast has a much tighter fit.
BTW, I have a `90 NP 4.5 Raf/Cam Slalom, that I bought used in very good shape,
and I have been very disappointed with it. The plastic pulleys at the down
haul are very *lame*. Be sure to wear eye protection when down hauling NPs,
as this plastic pulley tends to load unevenly, and will break, spraying
fragments in your face! My girlfriend uses the sail(not much abuse), and it
is unraveling at the luff sock, and appears to be of very low quality
materials.
Just another dissatisfied NP customer!
Jim Paugh
ICL, INC.
Mid-Range Systems Division
Irvine, CA
j...@al.irv.icl.com
Tom Albertz
>
> Tom, I have had a number of dealers tell me that buying a Carbon 60 is
> a cheap way to get a Fiberspar mast, and they have made the claim, like
> you, that the NP mast is identical in all respects to the Fiberspar,
> just the price is lower because of NP's quantity purchase.
> ..........The NP mast takes a lot of abuse on this net suggesting that
> it is defective and tends to break. It would be nice to see some facts
> on this issue, for once, instead of just first-hand accounts on both
> sides of the issue.
OK, OK, OK. I just got off the phone with Ted Lohr of Fiberspar.
If he's not the main man, he's one of two or three main men there.
He said that there is no difference in terms of weight, flex,
materials or quality control between Fiberspar World Cup 460/27.5
Red and Neil Pryde Carbon 60 460 mast. He basically said that
Neil Pryde masts are made to Neil Pryde specs on tooling which
Neil Pryde owns. I said "which may be exactly the same as the
tooling used to make the Fiberspar counterpart." He said "Yes."
He said "Bjorn Dunkerbeck doesn't seem to have any trouble with
off-the-shelf Neil Pryde masts. He also said that of the top 50
world cup sailors, 44 of them use off-the-shelf Fiberspar or Neil
Pryde masts, which is a testimonial to Fiberspar.
However, it turns out that Neil Pryde masts have a HIGHER
wholesale price than the Fiberspar counterpart. Also, the
Neil Pryde Carbon 60 mast counterpart was the 460/30 Red until
last year when they went to a 27.5 MCS bend. Fiberspar has
both as well as a 460/25.
I believe this is the truth.
(James Hwee)
j...@al.UUCP (Jim Paugh) writes...
>BTW, I have a `90 NP 4.5 Raf/Cam Slalom, that I bought used in very good shape,
>and I have been very disappointed with it. The plastic pulleys at the down
>haul are very *lame*. Be sure to wear eye protection when down hauling NPs,
>as this plastic pulley tends to load unevenly, and will break, spraying
>fragments in your face! My girlfriend uses the sail(not much abuse), and it
>is unraveling at the luff sock, and appears to be of very low quality
>materials.
>Just another dissatisfied NP customer!
You may remember me if you were following the thread on NP Mast Breakage...
HELP!!!. I was the guy that had the huge problems with the Neil Pryde
Carbon 60s.
All I have to say is, if you buy something brand new and find
that it starts to fall apart (especially along the luff sleeve... a real
problem with Neil Prydes) don't just stop at being a dissatisfied customer,
become a vocal customer and tell the manufacturer that this sort of stuff
just isn't on. Take it back to them and make them honour their warranty
and if at first they don't budge, stay on their backs.
It works for me... well almost. My sail's been fixed and as for the masts,
the 1st round's over, and the 2nd round has just begun.
- James
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
James Hwee
Curtin Uni.
Perth, West Oz
PSImail : psi%050529452300070::SHWEEJA02
Internet : SHWE...@cc.curtin.edu.au
Bitnet : SHWEEJA02%cc.curti...@cunyvm.bitnet
UUCP : uunet!munnari.oz!cc.curtin.edu.au!SHWEEJA02
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