Finding Baja Vehicles
JM
Cali for a trip down to Baja or B) live in Cali, but don't own a
suitable vehicle? A friend and I are planning a trip down in the spring
from the Bay Area. However Neither of us owns anything big enough...
I'm sure rental companies don't allow their rented vans to go to Mexico,
and I wouldn't want to risk taking one down against their regs and
having something happen. What do people do? Is there a company out
there who does allow vehicles to be taken down? Thanks for any ideas!
JM
Jeff McVannel
I've seen guys in rented motor homes at P.S.C.. I have also seen a few of
them get trashed on the road in. Somebody is renting them out but I don't
know who. I bought a $1500 van to use there and locally. Van a is good way
to go.
Jeff
JM wrote in message <3C1CED1A...@earthlink.net>...
Lois Stufflebeam
take to Mexico. I can't remember who, but for some reason Bob Baker comes
to mind. (a local car dealership)
Lois
"JM" <jump...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C1CED1A...@earthlink.net...
WARDOG
Sorry bro, been too freakin' busy to get back to you...
Heading down to the Baja in a few days, for a month...it's been windy
and good...:-)
You may be able to hook up with me or one of my bros this
Spring...people are always saying that they are going, but talk is cheap
when it comes down to actual logistics...
we'll see if the East Coast boyz show this Summer...you know there is
always grass to mow and diapers to change...;-)
If your buddy backs out, we might be able to squeeze that new tri-fin
(ZeroGravity: Bassett design) in somewhere...;-)
You could buy a used American full size van and split it. Great bargains
for less than $3K.
I've seen Budget rental vans parked along the point...I know people who
have rented mohos (murder homes) from companies and didn't tell them
they were going to PSC...holy shmoly...big risk. Here is some 411 from a
company that rents vans and trucks :
Phone: (619) 470-7368
Fax: (619) 479-2004
e-mail: in...@cabaja.com
http://www.cabaja.com
http://www.surfingsports.com/baja.asp
http://www.surfingsports.com/baja2.asp
http://www.surfingsports.com/baja3.asp
WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com
JM
routine (still love it and get up there plenty!), so a trip South to Mexico is
past due. I have a VW Golf, which is actually a great windsurfing vehicle for
one (with roof box and gorge rax), but no way is it going to work for 2 people
and tons of gear on a marginal road. I wouldn't have the clearance for a pot
hole.
JM
JM
that board will eat it up! Well I'm up for more than one trip next year, so
maybe we'll connect at some point. I've got tons of vaca next year :)
J
Dave
WARDOG wrote:
> ..people are always saying that they are going, but talk is cheap
> when it comes down to actual logistics...
> we'll see if the East Coast boyz show this Summer...you know there is
> always grass to mow and diapers to change...;-)
Hey Wardog.
I resemble that remark, although mine are out of diapers thankfully.
Have a good trip down south.
Dave.
Roger Nightingale
These guys well let you take an RV across the border for and extra $200. It's
expensive, but you'll be living large when you get there. This is our plan for the
next trip, but I don't know anyone who's done it yet.
FYI, last time I was there, we shared a campfire with a German guy who came made
it in a VW bug, rented in TJ. If the road is decent, that Golf will make it - just
don't let those flat stretches sucker you over 20 mph.
http://www.elmonte.com/products/camperhome.asp
Roger
JM wrote:
--
Roger Nightingale
Associate Research Professor
Department of Biomedical Engineering
Duke University
Andrew Cunningham
> I can't remember who, but for some reason Bob Baker comes
> to mind. (a local car dealership)
Try Pearson Ford in San Diego... I rented a F150 from them , no problems
going to Baja, just have to pay the Mex insurance.
Brian Mckenzie
the woodwork. That was a stinger!
Later,
Bri
Chris Schefler
anarchic.
I have a luxury 4x4 windsurfing van with every conceivable accessory and a
ridiculously
expensive sound and navigatiion system and I would love to take it to Baja
but I dare not.
Mexico is a third world country and as much as I want to go down there this
winter for at
least 3 weeks, and bring my van, to Los Barillos, Baja, I won't. Not until
they get their act
together.
Wind is good from Dec to July I believe, with Jun being the peak. Check
vela.windsurf.com
for more detail.
The Carriibean also has good wind at the same time of year. I wish I could
go to Mexico
but everytime I have gone I have always sworn I'd never return.
I have been stolen from and defrauded severly many times. Don't bring
anything of your
own you value. Rent your vehicle and your gear.
Better yet, join me in boycotting Mexico until they become a civilized
country where one
can travel and bring valuable without fear of being vicitiimized, robbed,
extorted, etc.
JM <jump...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C1CED1A...@earthlink.net...
Benjamin Kaufman
Ben
JM
lately. We're not planning on going that far South... just PSC. From talking
with people (and emails), I gather that most people take regular rentals down.
I guess it's not written on most rental contracts that you can't go to Mex, and
as long as you buy full coverage Mex insurance, the vehicle's covered.
JM
Lois Stufflebeam
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Rent your vehicle and your gear.
> Better yet, join me in boycotting Mexico until they >become a civilized
country where one
> can travel and bring valuable without fear of being >vicitiimized, robbed,
extorted, etc.
Boy, I can hear all the Baja sailors cheering, more beachfront property
available for them, and fewer people on the water.
I have so many friends who travel in Baja, and we have also gone a number of
times without incident. But you do have to have a different mind set. Don't
go down there looking like the rich American, or acting like the ugly
American. You are just setting yourself up as a target.
Mexico is a wonderful place to visit, and the Mexicans are really warm
lovely people. And the sailing is great. Looks like there will be wind
later this week in San Felipe, I think I'll go pack the van.
Lois
Andrew Cunningham
at lasb...@home.com wrote on 12/23/01 10:56 AM:
> I have so many friends who travel in Baja, and we have also gone a number of
> times without incident
Lois,
You are lucky. I have had to pay the "DWG" (driving-while-Gringo) fine a
number of times to the Policia. It has nothing to do with being an
obnoxious gringo - they just target you. It is a bit of a shock the first
time, but by the third time I had the $20 ready!
Not so long ago a friend was shaken down for $200 driving through TJ early
in the morning (they pretended to find a white powder in his truck). There
have been a number of smash and grabs at Raul's this summer just past.
I would also advise anyone never to camp alone - find a campground or some
fellow travelers. Another friend of mine woke up to find a gun in his face,
camping alone on a beach near Ensenada( that was a few years ago, when Baja
was more lawless)
I think the best defense against DWG is to be driving an anonymous white van
or truck with no boards on top. Although I still do it , I would also avoid
if possible driving through TJ at 4am in the morning as the roads are empty
and gringo surfers stand out the the proverbials.
Andrew
Chris Schefler
Lois Stufflebeam <lasb...@home.com> wrote in message
news:8NpV7.1797$dG.13...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
I know that most Mexcians are good people. But like you said don't go down
there looking like a rich American. Unfortunately, I am. I have a very
luxurious
4x4 Ford Van with every option and ridiculously high end sound system,
navigation
system, backup camera, etc. I was planning on spending January or maybe
longer
there but I talked to a friend who is an attorney in San Francisco and an
old college
buddy who has spent quite a bit of time in Baja and also has lots of friends
who have
and he invoked the fears and anxieties I was trying to deny. If I go down
there with my
luxury windsurfing Van with all the acccoutrements I will attract alot of
attention and will
be a target.
I am not saying that Mexicans in general are bad. I am not a racist. I do
not believe there is
any signifiicant difference between the various ethnicities of the human
population. But there
are significant variations in culture and civility among the various regions
and nations off the
Earth. To take an extreme example it would be foolhardy to travel at this
time to Afghanistan.
By that I do not mean I believe the Afghan people are by virture of their
ethnicity evil or in any
other way fundamentally different from any other human being. What I do
mean is that their
current cultural and societal reality, not their ethnicity, presents
unacceptable dangers.
Ditto for Mexico. Several years ago I planned a road trip to explore the
Baja Penninsula.
I only got as far as Tiajuanna. I was driving a brand new VW Camper Van. I
stopped in
TJ for lunch and a couple cervesas, and, if I must be perfectly honest, a
couple of lap dances.
I made the foolish mistake of parking my van on the street in downtown TJ.
I was gone for
maybe 2-3 hours but when I returned to my van I found that in spite of my
state of the art
alarm system somebody had smashed a window, and stolen my suitcase, laptop
computer, and
portable TV. I was so upset that I aborted my Baja trip and returned
immediately to the US.
I have friends who have told me even worse horror stories. If you go down
with a low profile
and avoid all of the vices such as bars, strippers, drugs, etc., and stick
strictly to the straight and
narrow, don't bring, drive, or carry anything valuable or luxurious, and do
not make any attempt
of any kind to interact or experience the indigenous culture but stick to
your luxury hotel and
windsurfing resort, you can safely enjoy Mexico.
But if you prefer to adventure into the authentic indigenous culture, and
enjoy partying and
mingling in the local culture, that too is an acceptable risk if you in no
way display any sign
of affluence.
If you do for any reason cross the police department, the usual way out is
to bribe them.
For example a few years ago I was in Puerto Vallarta for 10 days and I
rented a scooter
to buzz around and explore the city and country side. Nobody told me I had
to wear a
helmet, as I recall, althogh I think one was made available to me. On the
third day or so
I was riding the coastal road south of town and was pulled over by a mexican
policeman.
He told me I was in violation of the law for riding without a helment. He
wrote up a citation
and confiscated my California drivers license. He told me I would need to
go to some municipal
office and pay a fine to resolve the infraction and recover my drivers
license. I was cooperative
and listened carefully to his insturctions on the procedures I needed to
follow to resolve the
infraction. I seemed a little taken aback that I was actually carefully
noting his instructions and
intending to fully cooperate with the proper procedures to pay my debt.
When he realized I
actually intended to follow his instructions to recover my license and pay
my fine at city hall,
he abandoned the charade and cut to the chase. He told me to give him 20
pesos (or something,
I can't remember the exact amount). I happily gave him 20 pesos and he
returned my license
and allowed me to continue on my way sans helmet.
Later I related the incident to the vendor who rented me the scooter and he
became indignant.
He retorted "If that happens again, don't pay any more than 10 pesos!"
The point being that law enforcement in Mexico is a farce. In a way it is
very convenient that
you don't have to go to court or anything.. Rather, you pay the necessary
bribe to the police
officer that is required to be allowed to continue upon your way.
That is fine and dandy but that is not a horror story. I have had friends
who have told me of
much worse abuses by Mexican law enforcement.
A friend of mine just last night, an attorney in San Francisco, told me on
the phone of a friend
who went to a strip bar in Baja. He was getting lap dances from a beautiful
young chica. She
invited him to a motel room for a more private and intimate experience. In
his excited and aroused
state of mind he accepted the invitation and went to a motel room with her.
Once in the room a
group of young Mexicans burst in impersonating Mexica police. They
confiscated his wallet
and attempted to coerce him into proiding him with the PIN for his ATM card.
As the story
was told to me, he pretended to be insane as a defense. Nobody knows what
happened after
that but he managed to walk across the border at some point back into the
US. He had no
memory of how he escaped his captors or of crossing the border. He suffered
from amnesia
an post traumatic stress syndrome. Within a short period of time he dropped
out of law school.
My friend has not heard from him sense.
I myself had planned to spend January in Baja windsurfing and Kiteboarding
and had not interest
or intention of pursuing strippers, drugs, or other seedier aspects of the
indiginous culture. But my
attorney friend whos friend was victimized and severely traumatized warned
me that travelling in
Baja with an expensive custom 4x4 brand new windsurfing van would attract
alot of attention and
therefore risk..
He told me that I should expect road blocks of young armed banditos who
wouldd demand who
knows what for my passage.
I emphasize that this is an attorney in whom I have the utmost respect and
trust and who himself
has travelled frequently to Baja and has had many friends who have done so
as well. His point
was don't take an expensive vehicle or anything else expensive, keep a low
profile, stick to the
straight and narrow, and in general masquerade as a poor traveler with
minimal means and to
drive or carry nothing of value and minimal cash.
Baja can be safe if you stick to the high end resorts and do not venture
into indiginous culture.
Do not appear affluent or bring anything of value. Fly, don't drive. Do
not bring your own gear.
Do not walk around town at night, especially if you're not sure where you're
going.
I have very regrettably aborted my plans to drive my brand new luxurious
windsurfing van
down to the southern tip of Baja based on my own past sketchy experiences in
Baja and
the cautions of my attorney friend who himself has had substantial
experience in Mexico and
also has many friends who have travelled extensively in Mexico, at least in
one case with
tragic results.
Mexico is an anarchic, lawless, fitlthy, dirty shithole. Everytime I go
there I swear I'll never
return. I emphasize and reiterate that I am not criticize the average
Mexican. On the contrary
I find the typical Mexican to be very warm, friendly, and trustworthy. But
there is an inadequate
law ennforcement infrastructure, and too much poverty, which makes travel in
Mexico far
different than say, travelling to Canada or Western Europe. There are
serious risks. The trick
is not to appear affluent, confine yourself to upscale resorts, fly, don't
drive, and bring nothing of
value. Stick to rich gringo sactuaries. Venture beyond the high class
gringo resorts at your own
risk.
I emphasize that the Mexcian people themselves are honorable and warm
people. But as in
any society there are rouge elements and Mexico lacks an uncorrupted
criminal justice and law
enforcement infrastructure necessary to protect us from the rogue bandits,
and its poverty creates
a level of desparation that makes any prosperous tourist an object of envy
and a target.
The Caribbean offers a more safe, secure and civilized Northern Hemisphere
winter windsurfing
destination with far fewer risks than Mexico. Baja Mexico is a paradisical
winter windsurfing
destination, affordable, exotic, with luxurious conditions. The risks are
acceptable if you keep
a low profile, fly to your destination and do not drive, unless you drive a
low-end, used rental
vehicle, and at all times pose as a poor tourist on a shoestring budget,
bring nothing of exceptional
value and carry not too much cash but enough to bribe your way out of any
confrontation with the
corrupt police.
I don't mean to be chicken little or an alarmist. A fly-in package with
Vela Windsurf is perfectly
safe. But in my case, my plans to drive the length of the Baja Peninnsula
in my luxury custom windsurfing
van equipped with a ridiculously expensive sound and navigation system, my
nervousness based on my
own experience of the risks involved, and my discussion of my plans with my
attorney friend with
his wealth of experience in Mexican travel, as forced me to abort my plan.
And that makes me mad.
It is my loss, and a loss to the innocent and ethical Mexcians who I would
have spent my money with.
Maybe I will still fly down there but if I must get on a plane I will
probably just go to the Carribbean
or Austrailia both of which are more civilized and in order to boycott a
country that limits my freedom
to travel in because of it's uncivilized and relatively lawless, dangerous
environment. That is their loss.
When they elect an ethical, honorable government and correct their corrupt
and unethical criminal
justice and law enforcement institutions, they will enjoy great benefits of
increased tourism to their
wonderful country, and the attendent economic largesse. Every Mexcian will
benefit from an
advance of their country into the 21st century and civilized, just society.
As long as they want to run their country like the mafia and behave like
animals and maintain
a state of dangerous anarchy, I call for a boycott of tourism. I have
been to Mexico at least
6 times or more but I am fed up with their backwards, barbaric, anarchic
society an their dirty,
chaotic, shithole cities. I yearn for the day when they clean up their act
and I can feel safe and
secure in driving my luxury van throughout Baja, and can contribute to
their economy by vacationing
there, and can trust that as long as I behave civily and lawfully I will not
face unreasonable risks
of being targeted by banits or corrupt policement who see my affluence as
an opportunity to
abuse their power and parasitically suck me dry. Let alone the horror
stories I have heard of
people being kidnapped, coerced into relinquishing their ATM card and PIN,
and showing up
days later in the US with amnesia and post traumatic stress disorder.
Mexico: please join us in the 21st century so that I can participate in
your wonderful water sports
opportunities and contribute to your economy. But as long as you have
armed 16 year olds manning
road blocks along the Baja Penninsula, who have no disincentive and every
incentive to victimize
and exploit me, I will take my tourist budget elsewhere. It is your loss.
Mexico. You are good people. There is much I admire and respect about you.
But your government
and criminal justice system is corrupt, backwards, and out of control. This
hurts all of you and all of
us who would like to travel more freely and comfortably in your country, and
contribute to your economy.
I am outraged and furious that the relatively anarchic nature of your
society denies me the opportunity
to travel to your beautiful country, interact with your warm and friendly
populace, and contribute to
your economy. But I and enough of my friends have too many horror stories
to tell about travelling
in your country. I am fed up. I would love to spend a lot of time and
money windsurfing and kiteboarding
in Baja this winter but your government and corrupt criminal justice and law
enforcement institutions,
which I have borne the brunt of both first hand as well as from second-hand
anecdotes, leaves me with
no choice but to boycott your third world, chaotic, dangerous shithole.
I will probably visit your country again someday in any case, but with a
very low profile, minimal funds
and other valuables, and for a very brief time in only the few relatively
secure upscale destinations.
I have invested a significant amount of money in my dream windsurfing van
and after careful consideration
and discussion with friends who have had experience in your country, I
regrettably have concluded that it
would be foolhardy to bring such a modern, prized possesion into your land
of anarchy, poverty, and
lawlessness. Instead I am forced to abandon, indeed boycott your country,
my preferred destination
in many other respects, in favor of the carribbean, Hawaii, or elsewhere.
But never again, as I have
told myself so many times before, will I set foot in your lawless den of
criminal chaos.
Get your shit together Mexico! We want to come and spend money and visit
and enjoy all the wonderful
things you have to offer, but first you have to make the effort and do the
work to transform your country
into a safe, civilized, modern, civil society. Until then you are forcing
us, not just Americans but the
world at large, to take our considerable tourism spending to other, safer,
more civilized destinations.
>
> Lois
>
>
>
>
Chris Schefler
Technobarbarian
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> goes on and on and on and on in message
news:uIEV7.14214$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I try not to respond to trolls and I usually remove all their silly
cross posting, but I'll make an exception in this case:
> I know that most Mexcians are good people. But like you said don't go
down
> there looking like a rich American. Unfortunately, I am. I have a very
> luxurious
> 4x4 Ford Van with every option and ridiculously high end sound system,
> navigation
> system, backup camera, etc. I was planning on spending January or maybe
> longer
> there but I talked to a friend who is an attorney in San Francisco and an
> old college
> buddy who has spent quite a bit of time in Baja and also has lots of
friends
> who have
> and he invoked the fears and anxieties I was trying to deny. If I go down
> there with my
> luxury windsurfing Van with all the acccoutrements I will attract alot of
> attention and will
> be a target.
Oh you poor dear! Did it ever occur to you that we have crime in the
good ol' USA too?
> Ditto for Mexico. Several years ago I planned a road trip to explore the
> Baja Penninsula.
> I only got as far as Tiajuanna. I was driving a brand new VW Camper Van.
I
> stopped in
> TJ for lunch and a couple cervesas, and, if I must be perfectly honest, a
> couple of lap dances.
> I made the foolish mistake of parking my van on the street in downtown TJ.
> I was gone for
> maybe 2-3 hours but when I returned to my van I found that in spite of my
> state of the art
> alarm system somebody had smashed a window, and stolen my suitcase, laptop
> computer, and
> portable TV. I was so upset that I aborted my Baja trip and returned
> immediately to the US.
You poor dear. TJ and the other border cities are not represtitive of
what you'll find in the rest of the country. There are many places in the US
that are also unsafe to park a nice rig.
>
> I have friends who have told me even worse horror stories.
The poor dears! I sure am glad that bad things never happen to good
people in the good ol' USA.
> But if you prefer to adventure into the authentic indigenous culture, and
> enjoy partying and
> mingling in the local culture, that too is an acceptable risk if you in no
> way display any sign
> of affluence.
Now here you're just plain an idiot. I've visited with the Seri, Tara
Humara and Mayans. In fact I have Mayan friends. We frequently drive many
miles with a very nice Class B motorhome with all the luxuries and haven't
had any problems. Last year we were in Mexico for 3 months and over 7,000
miles with it and traveled nearly to Guatamala.
Ya' poor dear! $2 dollars for riding around without a helmet instead of $1!
Have you figured out what that crime costs in the US?
>
> A friend of mine just last night, an attorney in San Francisco, told me on
> the phone of a friend
> who went to a strip bar in Baja.
[probable urban legend snipped]
>But my
> attorney friend whos friend was victimized and severely traumatized
warned
> me that travelling in
> Baja with an expensive custom 4x4 brand new windsurfing van would attract
> alot of attention and
> therefore risk..
OH my! Our motorhomes have gotten lots of attention. What the Mexicans
usually say is, "Suave!" And every now and then some one offers to wash them
or watch them for a few pesos.
>
> He told me that I should expect road blocks of young armed banditos who
> wouldd demand who
> knows what for my passage.
An idiot talks to other idiots and believes the urban legends he hears.
It happens, but car jacking in the states is probably much more common. In
the last three years I've read one credible report of bandits operating on
the highways near the border with Guatamala.
> I emphasize that this is an attorney in whom I have the utmost respect and
> trust and who himself
> has travelled frequently to Baja and has had many friends who have done so
> as well. His point
> was don't take an expensive vehicle or anything else expensive, keep a low
> profile, stick to the
> straight and narrow, and in general masquerade as a poor traveler with
> minimal means and to
> drive or carry nothing of value and minimal cash.
So I quess we'll have to stop traveling with our scuba gear,
digital cameras and lap top computer because you're idiot friend can't
figure out how to travel safely. I don't think so.
> Baja can be safe if you stick to the high end resorts and do not venture
> into indiginous culture.
> Do not appear affluent or bring anything of value. Fly, don't drive. Do
> not bring your own gear.
> Do not walk around town at night, especially if you're not sure where
you're
> going.
Good advice in many parts of the States, but I like to walk and have
spent many hours in many places walking around after dark in Mexico without
any problem.
>
> I have very regrettably aborted my plans to drive my brand new luxurious
> windsurfing van
> down to the southern tip of Baja
Ya' poor dear! Staying home is its own punishment.
>Stick to rich gringo sactuaries. Venture beyond the high class
> gringo resorts at your own
> risk.
I try to avoid the expensive resort areas and EVERYWHERE I go, I go at
my own risk.
> I don't mean to be chicken little or an alarmist.
It must just come to you naturally, because you do a grand job of both.
>A fly-in package with
> Vela Windsurf is perfectly
> safe.
NOTHING is "perfectly" safe, anywhere.
>But in my case, my plans to drive the length of the Baja Peninnsula
> in my luxury custom windsurfing
> van equipped with a ridiculously expensive sound and navigation system,
Anyone who drives around with a "ridiculously expensive sound system"
is.....well, ridiculous.
But as long as you have
> armed 16 year olds manning
> road blocks along the Baja Penninsula,
Ah the military, ya' know they've never been anything but friendly and
polite to me.
You really are a pathetic whiner Chris.
Dennis
"You must wander the wastelands of Usenet, but bring your insanity, they
don't take common sense."
Inarchetype
Welcome to real life in most of the world. If you want to go into most of
the world and enjoy what is there, deal with it.
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uIEV7.14214$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Peter B
<snipped stuff about Mexican dangers>
Chris, there are plenty of places in my home town in the UK I wouldn't want
to leave a quality vehicle unattended.
There are places in my hometown where I grew up and walked the streets at
night that I'd be ill advised to visit at night now.
The last time I personally had a vehicle vandalised was in Lille, France.
I've had 2 family holidays in Florida and had a great time despite warnings
of nasty things that can happen to tourists.
Before a business trip to Atlanta I heard all kinds of horror stories and
despite visiting Detroit a few times I'm still alive :-)
It's often a matter of perception but always common sense.
Pete.
Juan E Navarro
>
> You are not going to like this, but I'll say it anyway-
>
> Welcome to real life in most of the world. If you want to go into most of
> the world and enjoy what is there, deal with it.
Or wait until they change the world for you. I wonder why you, Chris,
didn't tell them in advance so they could get better prepared for such
an important visitor.
++*Juan--
PS: When they change the world the way you like, please let me know.
I'll find another place.
rkuntz
his trips seem to be involve of lap dancing, drugs and up here his choices would
be fairly limited. I'm pretty sure however that with his attitude he could find
trouble anywhere.
Ray
Inarchetype
On reflection, I was a bit abrupt-
My response was not intended to be a flame.
My point is merely thus:
When you travel, you have some options about where you go and how you
operate. You yourself outlined some of the basic decision points quite
eloquently (although in more pejoritive terms than I would have used). This
is basically the menu. It is dictated by the axiom that you generally have
to accomodate the socioeconomic and cultural reality of the places you go.
It will not accomodate you. Which option you choose will certainly have a
lot of influence on who you will meet, where you will go, and the general
quality of the experience.
If you don't like any of the options on the menu, you are pretty much left
with not eating. One of the options, of course, is to stick to domestic
destinations or those with per-capita GDP, income distribution, and
enforcement resources similar to that to which you are accustomed. Of
course, this most of us would find this a bit limiting.
As for the unfortunate incident you describe involving the vehicle parked in
a dodgy part of Tijuana near your chosen entertainment, sorry, but I'll
venture to say you have probably learned something. As anyone who is clever
enough to operate a news reader can probably think of domestic analogies
which would illustrate the absurdity of judging mexico, baja, or mexicans by
your experience in the red-light district of Tijuana, I'll leave that to
you. I certainly would not presume to make any norative judgements about a
fellow sailor's choice of apres sail entertainment, but it must be said that
if one choses to hang out in the sewer he will not find much sympathy for
his complaints about the rats he encounters there.
Regards and Merry christmas.
"Inarchetype" <maxim...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EIJV7.871$jf1.28...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Dave
with those that try to help him - is back.
If you're gonna troll Chris, try being a little more subtle.
Dave in Charlotte.
Chris Schefler
Why are you responding with such derision and sarcasm? I emphasized
repeatedly
my respect, affection, and admiration for the Mexican people and their
country.
The corruption of their government and police is a widely known reality.
I guess you hate me because I admitted I am affluent. I get alot of that.
I do realize my gripe that my affluence makes me a bigger target in Mexico
and forces me to go to the Carribean or Hawaii or Austrailia instead sounds
like a pretty petty gripe, and indeed it is. But my protest is not only on
my
own behalf. I think all windsurfers, and all of Mexico and her people, will
greatly benefit from a rehabilitation of its corrupt governmental and
criminal
justice institutions.
I know most people have to worry about making their mortgage payment
and have to get up with an alarm clock every morning and bust ass. I did
that for 20 years. I am blessed and lucky to have achieved early
retirement.
But that only increases the honor and respect I have for those who work,
especially those who bust ass for minimal wages, like the 65 year old I
met the other day who was visibly sweating and exerting himself with a
power tool trying to strip paint from a metal elevator floor. His hard
labor,
at his age, and the friendly way he treated me, humbled me, and made me
feel great respect and honor for him, and reminded me to count my blessings.
You're right. I should never have alluded to my affluence. 9 times out of
ten
that provokes a malicious response such as yours. But then again, 1 time
out
of ten somebody will shake my hand, congratulate me, and say "good for you"!
I know how lucky I am. And yes, I am acutely aware of the pettiness of my
disappointment that I cannnot take my luxury windsurfing van to Baja in the
grand scheme of things.
Nonetheless, I do wish Baja was a safer, more civilized place, not just for
me but for all who would travel there, and I have friends who are not
financially independent who are just as wary as me about travelling to
Mexico.
Make no mistake, as I repatedly emphasized, I have great affection,
respect, and admiration for the people of Mexico. Not just me, but
everybody, American tourists and Mexican citizens, all would benefit
from a reform of the corruption that scares not just me but many many
potential tourists away from contributing to the Mexican economy by
vacationing there.
If you think my facts about Mexico are innacurate or disagree with
my assessment of those facts, I am open minded to your alternative
viewpoint. But talk about whining. Your dersive, sarcastic, whining
diatribe takes the cake for whining.
Technobarbarian <d_murry-...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:0THV7.2584$ag1....@eagle.america.net...
Dave
Welcome to fatherhood. Everything is gonna take a backseat to baby from here onwards.
Good thing you're getting all those great days at the coast while you still can.
Dave in Charlotte.
Chris Schefler
a more civilized, peaceful, just, humane place. But I fully realize many
harsh realities. And I do deal with them.
But what I will not do is resign myself to them and give up. Progress
happens.
It requires protest, and organized effort.
Deal with it.
Or roll over and submit yourself to mediocrity.
My post in no way denied the reality of the world. What I did was protest
it and call for a change.
Unfortunately there are too many people like you who roll over and submit
to medocrity and abuse.
Count me out.
One day Baja WILL be a safe and civilized place where an American can
comfortably and safely drive a new car and stroll the beaches late at night
wearing a gold watch without fearing for his safety.
But not as long as pussies like you would rather submit to domination and
lack the backbone to protest and work for progress, and the imagination to
envision a better future.
I'm not afraid to travel to Baja. I have many times. The tourist trap bars
full of gringos, like Papa's and Beers bore me to tears. I wander off into
the local hoods and find the local dive bars. I don't go to another country
to isolate myself in a whitewashed 5 star luxury resort. I like to get my
hands dirty and venture into the authentic local culture, which in northern
Baja amounts to a seedy, dark underbelly.
But excuse me for resenting the fact that I can't park a nice car on a busy
city street for 2 hours without having a window smashed out and all my
valuables stolen.
That happens in America, to be sure, but it is much less common and it
does NOT happen on a busy street in the downtown of a large city in
broad daylight. Yes, that is reality. But it doesn't have to remain that
way. With a little backbone, courage, and activism, things CAN change.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Inarchetype <maxim...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EIJV7.871$jf1.28...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
space you left open for me at Swell City. Now there'll be more room
for me South of the border also. I'll keep ya posted on the sailing
though, sure I will!
-Craig
Chris Schefler wrote:
> I agree with you. I know I am an idealist. I do wish the world were
> a more civilized, peaceful, just, humane place. But I fully realize many
> harsh realities. And I do deal with them.
>
> [rant justification snippage]
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
David Eduardo
treatment.
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8LV7.14960$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
JM
could be wrong, but I think a statement I heard recently about travelling in
Baja may apply here: "Most of the people who get into trouble down there are
people who get into trouble everywhere they go."
chris
>
> Lois Stufflebeam <lasb...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:8NpV7.1797$dG.13...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> >
> > "Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> very convenient that
> you don't have to go to court or anything.. Rather, you pay the necessary
> bribe to the police
> officer that is required to be allowed to continue upon your way.
And it's not a farce in the US? Granted, we may be better at polishing it
up and making it look proper and official, but it's almost just as bad here.
Here in the US, speeding tickets are a necessary source of revenue for small
towns and their court systems, which turnover speeding summons like a mill.
You know the story, you go in with summons in hand, you say hello to the
prosecutor and ask for mercy, and 99% he'll cut the points off the ticket.
This way, the court collects its court costs, the township collects its
penalty fees, and you get to keep your car insurance for a little while
longer (so you can go 45 in, say, a 25 and get caught again so the whole
process repeats itself).
>
> The Caribbean offers a more safe, secure and civilized Northern
Hemisphere
> winter windsurfing
> destination with far fewer risks than Mexico.
Much smaller scale and less people but just the same, I'd avoid Kingston
Jamaica like the plague right now.
/snip/
>
>
>
Mike F
Sure, he's shook up. But try convincing a group of my buds that Chris is way
out of line, after their experience in Mexico.
A group of suitably ratty-looking spelunkers in two or three suitably
ratty-looking vehicles were driving on back roads in the remote countryside
of Mexico, looking for some world-class caves, far away from any red-light
district or even a town, when they found themselves barricaded front and
rear by two big trucks, out of which poured bandits armed to the teeth. My
friends were allowed to keep their lives, the clothes they wore and one
vehicle to return home in.
Sure, Chris is whining and upset because the third world is so corrupt.
Sure, his truck wouldn't last much longer in any big U.S.city's seedier
regions than in TJ's red-light district. Sure, he was asking for it in a
region like that. I don't park my 1988 van in places like that, and it has
only a basic Ford OEM AM/FM/cassette (what's a CD?) stereo in it and its
navigation system is a folded sheet of paper.
But is it wrong to make some attempts to change that? Just as I don't dawdle
in California -- if I have to go there at all -- after the hassles the law
gave me there every time I passed through, I don't mess with Mexico so they
won't mess with me. If neither one of those places wants my money badly
enough to shape up, there are plenty of places I CAN visit hassle-free. I
hope Chris raises a HUGE stench if it will at least help keep our border
barriers up and maybe even exert a little pressure to get that country's act
cleaned up.
Mike \m/
Juan E Navarro
|
| Translation: I'm exceptionally rich and privileged, so I deserve
special
| treatment.
Which he actually got.
Alan Sandoval
First off, anyone who spends ANY time in a border town is asking for
trouble. That's been known for a LONG time. And why do "bordertowns" get
like this? Could it be rich Americans looking for a lap dance?
You get what you exude dude. Don't jibe in front of me.
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Chris Schefler
Show me where I expected specila treatment. what I do expect
is civilized and just treatment of all visitors to Mexico, and a sfficiently
mature and developed profiessional, civilized, organized and civilized
law enforcement agency and government in generall.
Stop your whining and show me where I asked for special treatment.
I do insist on just and civil treatment for my self an any other tourists
to Mexico.
My attorney friend advised me that my luxury vehicle would draw
exessive unwanted atttention and make me a more probable target.
Nowhere did I in any way say or imply I feel I deserve any special
treatement. But I do feel that all travelleres to Mexico should be
treated with a reasonbalb level of respect and enjyou a reasonable level
of safety and freedom to walk outside without undue risks, and feel
free to drive down with an expensive car without fear that by that
fact alone will make them a high profile target for robbery and extortion.
Your translation is absurd. My translation or summary of my complaint
is that the value of my vehicle or any luxury vehicle driven in to Baja
is a measue of one's risk of being victi8mized or extorted.
Contrary to the wierd and petty way you attempted to summarize
my post, the real thrust of my messsage is that the corruption and
injustice in the country of Mexico is a well-known raealityl.
Moving on from your sarcastic and highhly innacurate translation of my
statement, I in fact believe anybody should be able travel safely
around Mexico. I am bewildered as to how and why you
somehow imagined or contorted anything I have said to the
extent ncessary ot convince yourself that I am not asking for or
longing for anny special privilege of any kind That is toally
absurd. I am already overprivileged. But show me, you
pitiful litltle pissant, where I in anyway suggested or implied tha
I for anyreason am entitled to any special treatment.
The ability to travel freely toMexico without unreasonable fear and/or risk
of being vicitimized by a criminal and/or a corrupt criminal justice
system is a right anybody should desire and value. It has nothing to do
with affluece. The only connection to affluence is that driving a
high-ende\
vehicle, especially a big one, will make one stand out moor as a more
logical and obvious target.
If you think it is a special privilege to want to be free to travel without
a
valid and sensible fear of being targeted by criminals is "special
treatment",
the yes, I do want "special treatment". I only want the freedom and luxury
to travel Baja in a luxury RV without feeling like I am inviting trouble or
being put at a realistic risk of being victimized, then yes, I would like
that
"special" as you call it privilege, you whining immature jealous whiner.
David Eduardo <radio...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZCMV7.14542$Qb5.287...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
David Eduardo
> How in the hell did you come up with such an innacurate tanslation.
> Show me where I expected specila treatment.
Start with the part where you state that you are affluant, then move on to
the part about your out of the world super costly stereo system and the
description of the wheels.
Anyone with that attitude and that much conspicuous consumption should
either roll deep or not roll at all.
>what I do expect
> is civilized and just treatment of all visitors to Mexico, and a
sfficiently
> mature and developed profiessional, civilized, organized and civilized
> law enforcement agency and government in generall.
I see. When you next see the Tooth Fairy, tell her that I need a new Benze
or, at least, a Beemer.
> Stop your whining and show me where I asked for special treatment.
> I do insist on just and civil treatment for my self an any other tourists
> to Mexico.
I see. Your birth certificate came with a guarantee. Mine didn't. We only
have the right to pursue happiness, not a guarantee of success in that
pursuit.
> My attorney friend advised me that my luxury vehicle would draw
> exessive unwanted atttention and make me a more probable target.
It would in Westchester, Shaker Heights, Naperville or Beverly Hills, too.
Your car is probably as conspicuous as you are arrogant and naive.
>
> Nowhere did I in any way say or imply I feel I deserve any special
> treatement. But I do feel that all travelleres to Mexico should be
> treated with a reasonbalb level of respect and enjyou a reasonable level
> of safety and freedom to walk outside without undue risks, and feel
> free to drive down with an expensive car without fear that by that
> fact alone will make them a high profile target for robbery and extortion.
As for me, I miss the nickle Coke. Both of us willhave to get over our
unreasonable desires.
>
Rest of rant snipped, with mercy to all.
P.S. Mexico is not the USA.
Chris Schefler
that has made you lash back at me so rudely, and insult me?
I also request you read my post again more comfortably. I never said I
was looking for drugs, and I am not. I did admit that years ago I got a
lap dance. That is not why I want to go to Baja now. But yes I did get
one and yes it was fun, and legal, and I tipped her generously. That may
not be something you are interested in or free to try, but don't deride me
for
it. I was perfectly within the law and my rights to get a lap dance. You
must
be pretty uptight and puritanical if that makes your panties bunch up into a
wad!
I'm sorry also that my "attitude" got your panties in a bunch. I admit I
was very
disappointed and frustrated when I finally concluded that it would not be
wise
to take my van to Baja, all things considered. If you have contrary
experiences
or wisdom to share, please do. But don't attack me. Just because I believe
Mexico is not up to par and suggest others join me in boycotting them as a
proven effective strategy to achieve the change I'd like (if only enought
people
agree and collaborate), I don't see how from that you conclude I have bad
attitude.
I was careful to repeatedly emphasize my affection, admiration, and respect
for the Mexican people, my love of their country and my desire to return
there for the 7th or 8th time with my van to explore the highly regarded
windsurfing and kiteboarding sites and consistent winter winds I have
read so much about.
I don't have a problem. I am disappointed and frustrated and the
comparatively
uncivilized and risky state of Mexican society, and yearn for the day when
the
country becomes modern and safe. As I said I have travelled their
frequently
and would again without hesitation. It is my van, something I value very
much
(EXCUSE ME), that I fear would be at great risk of being burglarized or
stolen.
I've decided the risk is more than I'm willing to accept. I'm disappointed
and
angry that a lack of civil society or more precisely a state of basic
respect and
non-violence, common-courtesy and humanistic empathhy, or lacking that a
modern uncorrupted police force and criminal justice system to uphold civil
society and order, has persuaded me, personally, to abandon my plan
and wish to drive my Van to the south of Baja. Is that a bad attitude?
So be it.
But from where I'm looking it seems it's you that has a bad attitude,
it seems you have attacked and insulted me, instead of rebutted my
opinions and offering your own alternative, and somehow decided that
I am a drug user, even though I implicitly stated I am not. Something
I have said has made you angry and you have responded with an
immature, sarcastic, hateful, insulting attack on me, not my opinions.
Do you envy me for having an expensive luxury windsurfing van and
the freedom to windsurf the world full-time? If so, that is pathetic,
but certainly not unusual. About one in 10 people who learn of
my financial independence and full-time pursuit of travel and various
sports shake my hand, congratulate me, and say "good for you!!!
But most people react like you, with jealousy and derision.
If it is not my fortunate situation that irritates you, what is it?
Do you blame me for being upset when my van has a window
smashed and I lose an expensive laptop computer full of
personal and private data, and my whole suitcase? Do
you blame me for concluding based on that experience
and the advice of my friend that taking my van to Mexico
would not be too wise?
Do you resnet me for griping that I have to go to Hawaii
or Austrailia instead of Baja when most people of the
world have much more difficult and serious things to
struggle for and against and to feel bad about. If that
is what provoked you, let me assure you that I feel
very lucky, I count my blessings every day, I use
my means to help others through charities and organizations
I believe in, and I am fully aware of the pettiness of
my complaint compared to so many harsher realities of
the world.
Still, this newsgroup is for discussing all things related to
windsurfing. I don't believe I did or said anything at all
wrong, inflammatory, or insulting. I think I have a right
to post my complaint and call for a boycott, even though
it is a petty concern in the grand scheme of thing.
You, however, have no right to attack and insult me.
You have every right to disagree with me and challenge
my opinions and offer your own alternative opinions.
But your mean, insulting attack is immature, uncalled for,
and unjustified. I am embarassed for you, especially
if I am correct in my assumption that your childish
behavior notwithstanding, you are older than 10
years old. Act your age. Allow people to air their
opinions and learn how to respectfully disagree and
debate. There is no call for your rude, mean,
derisive, isulting attack.
I don't know you and you don't know me so I am
bewildered as to how I could say anything to make
you react so disrespectfully. You should attack my ideas,
not me.
If your anger stems from envy at my affluence and extensive
freedom to travel and windsurf, that is very common, but it's
your problem, not mine. I do not boast about it, I don't
feel superiour to anybody else because of my bank balance,
I earned my money and my early retirement completely through
my own efforts. EXCUSE ME for being successful.
If none of my hypotheses about just what makes you deride
me so are correct, perhaps you would care to explain.
Your behavior is in my opinion uncalled for, petty, rude,
mean-spirited. If I said something that makes me deserve to
be insulted by you, you should at least have the common
sense and common courtesy to explain just what that is.
What makes you think I have a problem? Of course I am
disappointed that I felt compelled and persuaded that my Baja
trip with my van was too risky and had to call it off., Sure, I
was disappointed and resented the risks resulting from Mexican
lawlessness and police corruption spoiled my plans. It's not that
big of a deal. Most people in this world have to worry about eating
each day. But EXCUSE ME for being disappointed, registering
my protest, and suggesting a strategy to improve the conditions
in Mexico that limit my travels and modes of travel there.
I actualy have a great attitude, but not towards the memory
of having my van window smashed, my computer and suitcase
stolen. Yes trouble can be found anywhere but you're rude
and off base to imply that it is I who is finding trouble, especially
without backing up that insulting accusation. Sure, trouble can
be found anywhere, and trouble can find you anwyere, but the
point I was trying to make is that from my own experiences and
on the advice of an attorney friend with extensive experience of
travel in Mexico, trouble is too likely to find me there. My cancellation
of my trip is a perfect example of how I am not looking for trouble,
but very interested in avoiding it.
You have every right to attack my ideas and opinions and offer alternative
ones, but your insults are uncalled for, immature, lacking in an explanation
of why you are treating me so contemptuously, and totally nonsensical,.
yes, I asked about N. Dakota
"my problem" is that Baja is in my opinion and in the opinion of a friend I
trust too risky,
at least for my prized van.
I did admit to getting a lap dance but that is legal and my prerogative, but
I was careful
to explain that I had no interest in finding drugs and do not seek them.
Your claim
that I in anyway implied that my trips involve drugs is totally based on
nothing but malice.
My choices "up here", by which I assume you mean the US, are limited now
because the
wind season is over. A few places I know of that have wind now are
Baja, the
Caribbean, and Maui. Obviously it is wind I am seeking, not trouble, not
drugs, and
not lap dances (ok sure, I wouldn't object to a lap dance if the
opportunity presented itself).
You accuse me of having an attitude that would cause trouble anywhere,
another insult.
In case you forgot to read my post my whole purpose of canceling my plans
to travel to
Baja is to AVOID trouble. If I was looking for trouble I would be eager
to go to Baja.
Do you grasp that logic?
I hope you will take the time to explain exactly what I said that provoked
such an
insulting and derisive response. But I get the feeling you're not the type
of person
who is willing or able to think things through.
I have been all over Baja and I shun the Gringo tourist traps and immerse
myself
in the hardcore local Mexican culture. As I emphasized repeatedly in my
post
I have much affection, respect, and admiration for the Mexican people and
their
culture But I and many of my friends have enough experience of Baja to know
where the risks are. EXCUSE ME for not wanting to take an expensive vehicle
down their. From what I know I think it is the right decision. I that is a
bad attitude
then why don't you take a new car down to Baja, leave it parked unattended
on
the street in TJ or Ensenada with a laptop and a suitcase inside for a
couple of hours,
and see if you "good attitude" will protect it from theft. That is what you
seem to be
implying.
Actually little or nothing of your angry insulting response to my post makes
any sense
to me. I doubt it does to you either. I don't know exactly what I said
that provoked
your insulting response, but I do know I said nothing to deserve it. You
are out
of line and your behavior is very immature. Attack and disagree with my
opinions,
and offer your alternative ones. But I hope you will learn that mature
adults sharing
opinions are able to disagree without insulting each other.
I'm not saying anger or derision or insults are never justified, but in this
case they
are. Who the hell pissed in your cheerios this morning anyway?
rkuntz <rku...@ndak.net> wrote in message news:3C277B88...@ndak.net...
Chris Schefler
perspective Mike but I disagree that my post was extreme or
deserved derision.
You obviously understand my reasoning for abandoning my
long awaited and eagerly anticipated plans for an extended
vacation in Baja. You obviously agree that my decision is
reasonable and based on legitimate risks, and I do not claim
that my decision is the right one, only that it is the right one for me.
I still might fly but unfortunately I think it would be a bad idea
to bring my new van down there even thought that would be my
ideal.
I don't know why you think my post was extreme or deserved
derision. Is it "extreme" to resent my vehicle being broken into,
my new state of the art laptop, my entire suitcase, and my TV
being stolen? Is it extreme to be so disappointed and discouraged
by that that I elect to abort my trip?
Is it really "extreme" that I have friends with far more terrible
horror stories about Mexico? Is it "extreme" to take the advice
of a good friend whom I highly respect, who is an accomplished attorney
and an experienced visitor to Mexico, that bringing my Van to Baja
would be risky and ill-advised?
Is it "extreme" to be disappointed that I felt the most appropriate
decision for me was to abort the trip and seek an alternative?
Is my frustration at the real, legitimate risks in Mexico, my
previous experience as a crime victim there, and the horror
stories I have heard from others influence me to abort my
trip, not so much for fear for my own safety but for fear of
the attention draw and attractive burglary target of my Van
would increase the odds that my prized van would be hit?
Is it really so "extreme" to choose to avoid those very
real risks and to lament the existence of those risks and
the interference they introduce to my ability to carry out
my plans, and contribute to the Baja economy.
And I would appreciate it if you would explain just what
it is about my decision, my explanation of what led to it,
my resentment of the real risks that influenced my decision,
and my floating the idea of a boycott, or whatever else it
might have been, that lead you to conclude that I deserved
some derision.
Like I said, I appreciate you backing me up, or rather
am pleased that you have a concurring opinion and
reasons for it, but I disagree that my post was extreme
and I deserved "derision" as a result.
I'm entitled to my opinions, I had good reason to
be disappointed and frustrated, I explained the reasons
behind my dilemma and decision, and I suggested
one potential way me and others who might agree with me
might increase the incentive of Mexico to make the
changes that are caled for.
I don't expect everybody to agree with my reasoning
or opinions and I would not post here if I was not open
to challenges to my reasoning and conclusions and
sugggestions, but when you accuse me of being "extreme"
and worse, agree that I deserve some "derision",
I don't know where you're coming for and respectfully
ask that you elaborate on just what was so "extreme"
about my complaint (are complaints simply unPC and
untolerated?) and exactly what I wrote that was so terrible
that I "deserve" some "derision".
I'm sorry I cancelled my Baja Trip. I'm sorry I have
a dream windsurfing van I have invested alot in and
I prize, I'm sorry that based on the experiences I
have had in Baja as well as those of friends and
in particularly my lawyer friend who urged me to
reconsider, that I cancelled my trip. I'm sorry that
I feel disappointed because of that and frustrated.
I'm sorry I expressed my frustration that real
legitimate risks in Baja which I have already been
victimized by in an not insubstantial manner might
warrant a boycott to help pressure Mexico to clean
up its act. I'm sorry that I believe a broad daylight
break into to a car with an alarm system on a busy
street in a big American city is far more unlikely than
the same thing happening in Mexico, as it did to me.
I'm being facetious, of course. I'm not sorry for
any of that. I think it is a reasonable decision based
on real experiences, or at least that it was not an
unreasonable decision, and I am in every way within
my prerogative to make that decision. I never
claimed nor implied my decision should be followed by any
body else, that it was absolutely final, or that I
was absolutely confinced it was the right decision,
or that I was not receptive to alternative viewpoints.
I simply explained my situation, my facts and
reasoning, and my resulting decision, my real
disappointment in abandoning my plan
But I hope you can ellaborate on just why you find
my post to be "extreme" and, even more importantly,
why you feel I "deserve some derision".
I'm sorry it wasn't a warm and fuzzy post, but it was
relevant to this newsgroup and I wanted share what
I had learned and concluded about Baja, at least
in my situation. I welcome mature, healthy debate
and disagreement, or any other anecdotes or input
that might provide me with relevant new factors worthy
of cmy onsideration, but please, spare me the derision.
Osama bin Laden is an extremist. Suicide terrorists
are extremists. But puLEASE, get real! My post
was not extreme. It was a relevant anecdote about
my decision to abort a planned windsurfing vacation to
Baja, my reasons why, my frustration over those realities,
and a suggestion of one way I and any one else who might
happen to agree with could take some action..
It seems to me that my anger and frustration and
disappointment should be understandable, my decision
and the reasons that influenced it while not everybody
will necessarily agree, were nonetheless understandable
and not unreasonable or if nothing else withing my
prerogative.
I also feel that to the extent there is any validity to
the risk factors I considered then there is justification
to call for pressure to correct those conditions, and
a boycott is one common such way to exert real
pressure.
Maybe if you had your car window smashed and
a laptop and a suitcase stolent, you would not feel
my opinions on this matter were all that extreme.
It's not like I'm calling for a war on Mexico or
the death penalty for theft. But there is no doubt
that crime is a serious reality in Mexico, worse
than in America, that should be considered by any
contemplating travelling there. There is nothing
extreme about avoiding taking a valuable new vehicle
there and exerting pressure
for that problem to be addressed and improved.
But no I don't "deserve derision". But I'll tell you this.
I'm sorry I bothered to share my story, my concerns,
my experiences and my reasoning, my caution to
others, and my call for action. It is my experience,
my decision, and my reasoning. I am entitled to those
and sharing them here in the hope that I might even
if only in a small way help promote an improvement.
I am shocked at controversy, the volume of posts and
some of the anger and derision I have, for reasons I
fail to comprehend, provoked.
If any body out there thinks I'm way off base I would
love to hear your opinion and reasoning. My mind is
not closed. And there are others more experienced than
I with Baja. My post was not intended as a manifesto.
It was just a story relevant to this newsgroup and an
attempt to help at least maybe plant some seeds for a
solution. Disagree, agree, make suggestions, give
alternative experiences that you have had in Baja
that might help enlighten me, that might either
reinforce my decision or make me want to me to
reconsider it.
But save the derision and insults. We are all adults
here., Windsurfing is about fun. I don't expect anybody
to necessarily agree with me, nor am I absolutely
convinced my opinion is right. But I do have an
open mind, I do welcome relevant responses and
healthy, mature disagreement and debate, but do we
really need to bandy the accusation of "extremist",
to resort to "derision", or make this anything more
serious and intense than a friendly dialouge and exchange
of anecdotes and opinions and reflections?
The only possible thing I can imagine might have provoked
a backlash or made some feel "derision" was in order was
my repeated charge that Mexico is a "shithole". I could
see where that might offend a Mexican but I don't think
there is any Mexican dishing out "derision". I'm sorry
if anybody found that description offensive, but can any
body who's been to Baja and the West Coast of Mexico
honestly argue that "shithole" is a totally unjustified
description?
That was my experience and maybe some will disagree with
me and that is fine but if you must be derisive I don't want to
hear it, go deride your dog or anything but spare me. This
is not that big of a deal!
Lighten up!
Mike F <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:RvNV7.33111$v33....@news.webusenet.com...
dray
Why don't you drive your toy box to san diego, hire a reputable mexican dude
named enrique to drive to baja while you fly on down for a day or two of
muchas coronas or bravas. OR
join the dude and his wife consuela while he tells all and sundry at every
checkpoint that he and his wife are robbing you. OR
pretend to be canadian, speak very bad french and noone will bother you.
should'nt cost more than 5oo to 1000 US .. I mean you are a man of means
si?.
cheers
ray in toronto
Chris Schefler <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uIEV7.14214$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
Chris Schefler
the
well known crime and corruption in Mexico?
It's quite a leap from that complaint and floating the suggestion of a
boycott
to your conclusion that I somehow expect the world to be perfect.
Get real. Reducing crime in Mexico would not be for me, where did you
get that one? It would benefit everybody, and it's not such an absurdity
to recognize the problem and hope it can be inproved. Progress does
happen. It's not easy and it can't be done my any one person but you seem
to think it is impossible and just because I am fed up with what I and
others
have seen to be high crime rates and corrupt police and have the audacity
to voice my complaint and suggest one possible action, how do you get
from that to your absurd suggestion that I think it is an issue that I think
is significant, relevant to us here, not hoplessly impossible to make
progress in,
or that I think an effort to work to improve the situation should only be
done
for my benefit.. I don't expect them to prepare the country for my visit.
Where did you get that? I would still travel without hesitation to Baja
and still might, I just decided that it would be a bad idea to bring my new
van and sure, that disappointed me.
Do you really think I am arrogant to lament the fact that a window was
smashed out of my van and my computer, suitcase, and TV were broken?
Do you really think that I think I am the reason they should work to reduce
their crime and corruption? If it would only benefit me it would not be
worth
the effort. Surely you understand that everybody would benefit from a
reduction
in crime and corruption in Mexico. It's not all about me. But it is a real
problem.
I do believe one day it will be much less of a problem. I believe that will
benefit
all of us windsurfers and anybody else who might be interested in travelling
in
Mexico if the country's crime rate was reduced and therefore public safety
were enhanced. Any increase in tourism would also benefit the Mexican
economy
and by virtue of that virtually all Mexicans.
Where on Earth did you get the notion that I felt that an decrease in crime
rate
in Mexico was something that should be done only to benefit me? Of course I
would benefit and I have my own personal reasons why I am interested in
seeing
crime and corruption corrected or at least improved in Mexico, but you're
just
being a petty little heckler by somehow concluding that I for a moment think
that
any effort to reduce crime and corruption should be done only for me, would
only benefit me, or would even be attempted if I were the only beneficiary.
Do
suppose you might one day want to vacation in Baja (if you haven't already)?
Do you really disagree with my desire to see more law and order in Baja?
I was robbed in Baja for more than $5k worth of stuff. Do you really think
it
is so horribly self-centered of me to have been saddened and angered by
that?
Do you really think I for a moment believed that improving public safety
in Baja should be done just for me?
What is your problem dude? How could anybody disagree with me for
cancelling my vacation because I have a new vehicle that is a prized
possession
that I had intended to drive down there, because I have previously been the
victim of crime down there that set me back $5k, and although I initially
decided to ignore the past and just do my best to prevent a repeat, a
conversation
with a lawyer friend of mine who himself and many friends of his had lots of
experience in Baja, advised me that bringing my Van would be a bad idea
and informed me that crime and corruption in Baja was worse than even I
had known, and told me a horror story of tragedy suffered by a close friend
of his at the hands of outlaws in Baja. What is so unreasonable about my
decision to cancel my trip. What is so offensive about my anger at being
taken for more than $5k, knowing others who suffered far worse fates in
Mexico, and my resulting firm belief that not only can crime and corruption
be reduced but they should, and that would be a benefit to all visitors
to Baja and the Mexican economy.
Please, tell me what I said that you foun so arrogant and offensive that
your responded in such a sarcastic and dersive manner?
I really can't believe all the hoopla over my post. I thought it was pretty
straight forward. I do believe there are real risks travelling to Mexico,
a third world country, especially if one travels in a new luxury car or in
any other way displays any signs of affluence. I believe it would be silly
to deny that these risks exist, that they can be reduced, and that it is
worth
the effort. What is so extreme or arrogant about that? And you really
are trippin' or just not too bright to conclude that somehow I think
I am the only reason these problems should be worked on, you idiot.
Of course no problem or change in Mexico would be justified just
because I wanted it. But excuse the fuck out of me for believing
that reducing crime and police corruption in Mexico is a worthwhile
goal, and excuse the fuck out of me for my audacity in implying that
it is a goal that I personally place a high priority on.
What country are you from? Since when is it arrogant or otherwise
inappropriate to recognize problems, believe they can be solved,
and want them to be solved very much and for personal reasons
place a higher priority on them than someone else might.
What the fuck is this, the Soviet Union? Is it really so outrageous
that I have my own priorities, things I would like to see done that
maybe not everybody else feels as strongly about, and to have the
arrogant audacity to present my argument as to a problem that I
see, that I believe can be improved, and that I personally, largely
for personal reasons, place a high priority on.
Sorry Juan. I'll never again make a suggestion about something
I'd like to see done in Baja until I first interview every resident
and make sure they all agree. Obviously you find it reprehensible
that I have dared to push for a goal that I personally feel strongly about.
Next time, I'll be sure to get your permission before I dare to have
my own opinions, priorities, and vehement suggestions.
Somewhere along the line I seem to have picked up this crazy
idea that I am entitled to think independently, have my own
opinions and priorities, and argue for things I personally feel
most strongly about. Obviously you consider that the height
of arrogance and selfishness. I guess you believe we should
all think alike and only dare push for changes that most every
body else wants too. But how can we all have the same ideas,
desires, and priorities? I guess we should all watch mainstream
corporate news networks and accept uncritically everything they
tell us. That way we would all more or less think alike and nobody
will outrage you by having the absurdly arrogant and self-centered
audacity to make a suggestion.
You are a fucking idiot. Sure I want Baja to be a safer place
for selfish reasons. But you are a real asshole to accuse me,
with no basis, of somehow thinking that my opinion is the only
one that counts, and that I think I am the ruler of Baja and that
they have an obligation to do whatever I ask even it it benefits
nobody but me.
I never in anyway implied I was a special visitor. I think
increases in public safety would benefit EVERY visitor to Baja
and also the Mexicans who live in Baja would benefit from
any increase in tourism, and the widely held and justified
perception of Mexico as a third world country that is far
less safe than the US or Europe obviously impacts their
tourism economy negatively.
I mentioned several times in my post, emphasized, the affection,
respect, and admiration I have for Mexicans. I made it crystal
clear I don't blame them. But anybody who's been to Mexico
or any other third world country understands they have lots of
room to mature and improve and hopefully eventually no longer
be considered "third world". Every member of the global
economy benefits from the prosperity of any and all the countries
and people of the Earth.
You'd have to either be a major prick or incredibly unintelligent
to somehow read from my post that I thought I was in anyway
a special visitor to Baja and that the improvements I myself
would most like to see happen should be done only for me
and because I want it. Which is it? Are you a total prick,
a total imbecile, or can you actually quote something from
my original post where I in anyway insinuated that my opinion
was all that mattered and that I expected Baja to do only
what I wanted and get it done in time for my visit. Well,
show where I implied that? I didn't think you could. So
that means you pulled it out of your ass, fabricated it just
to be rude and disrespectful to me, or you really are stupid
enough to have somehow really imagined I think crime in
Baja is only about me and should be improved for no other
reason than I would love so much for it to happen. Are
you really that stupid? I don't think so. I just think you're
really that much of a mature and antagonistic prick trying
to insult me for no other reason that I am mad at having been
robbed of over $5k in Mexico, had other friends have similar
or worse experience, and have decided I am no longer willing
to risk my property by taking anything I value into Mexico,
and that I really do think the Mexican government should
get it's ass in gear and civilize their country, starting with
eliminating the system of bribes and other corruption in the
criminal justice system. No you prick, not just for me,
but also for all other vicitims of crime in Mexico and all
those who would travel their if they felt it was more civilized
and safe and all the Mexicans who would benefit from that
increased tourism. I hope I've spelled it out carefuelly
enough for you to grasp if you study it long enough, and
I tried not to use any big words.
Chris Schefler
only to take my luxury new vehicle, especially since I have once before
had my car burglarized and all my valuables taken and my trip ruined
I don't fear for my own safety, but I do, and have many friends who
agree, believe it is unwise to bring a nice new vehicle to Baja. Yes,
I do feel that is a shame, especially now that I have my dream windsurfing
van.
As I carefuly and repeatedly emphasized I have great affection, respect,
and admiration for the Mexicans and what I view as their warm, friendly,
highly community and family oriented culture.
There is much more I love about Mexico. But there are a few things I hate,
most of all the way I was ripped of for over $5k in belongings and damage
to my new van, and my conclusion, influenced by the urging of a friend
of mine whose opinion I highly respect, who is an accomplished attorney,
and who has extensive experience travelling in Baja and a close friend who
lived in Mexico for a year, that Baja was not fit for new luxury vehicles,
or at least was a risky place for them.
Yeah, I'm bummed that me and my friend discussed it and ultimately agreed
it would be a bad idea for me to take my new windsurfing van to Baja as
I wanted to and planned. Sure, I'm disappointed. Obviously it is not the
end of the world. I guess people think my rant was inappropriately heated.
Have you ever had your car window smashed on a vacation and lost your
computer, your suitcase with ALL your clothes, and other valuables. Yes,
it was my fault for parking on the street, even though it was a busy street
in downtown TJ. Yes, I learned my lesson. That is the main reason I
have decided I should not bring my new van down there.
I do think Mexico has plenty of room to progress in many ways as a nation,
includ
in the reduction of crime and police corruption. And yes I would personally
LOVE to feel that I could take my new Van down there and that would not
be an unreasonable or foolish risk.
Obviously I'm not actually going to try to organize a boycott and I would
not hesitate to fly there, and I realize the main reason I can't take my new
Van is because it is so new and has so much valuable stuff in and on it.
That's obviously not such a bad problem to have, having a vehicle too
nice to take to Mexico.
This is not just my opinion or paranoia but a widely understood reality
about Mexico. It's not that big of a deal, I have other options for
winter sailingand I am blessed to have those options and only slightly
disappointed
at my decision to cancel my plans to my preferred destination, Baja,
both because I can't take my van and because so many times I have
left Mexico, and for various reasons sworn I'd never return, and I
have never felt that way about any other foreign country.
I myself do intend to boycott Mexico. I have had too many bad
experiences there and I know many other people who have too.
No, I don't think that I am important enough that my
boycott will make a difference. I am doing it less as an activism
tactic than thesimple fact that I'm fed up with that sewer of
a lawless country.
I don't know where swell city is, I've never been there, and I don't
think I know you either, but hey
glad I won't be taking any parking spaces down south from you and
sincerely hope you have great sailing.
Again I agree with your original response that some realities are
better accepted and dealt with than resisted, but in some cases
there are alternatives. If Mexico for whatever reason works for you,
more power to you. If it was my only option, I would deal with it.
But given that I do have other options I personally choose to
avoid Mexico. More room for you. And thankfully everybody
is free to go whereever they damn well please.
Feliz Navidad, y prospero ano neuvo!
Craig (gsogh) Goudie <gor...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3C278CFD...@netzero.net...
Chris Schefler
almost 10 times and never gotten into trouble, unless you count my
van window being smashed and my laptop, suitcase and TV taken.
I learned a lesson, that even in downtown TJ on a fairly busy street
a nice car containing valuables is not safe even in broad daylight.
But it was not my fault that I was a victim of that crime.
It's funny how often people are tempted to blame victims. Your point
is well-taken though, that their is alot a tourist can do to avoid trouble
or get into trouble.
But that point is not really relevant to my gripe. It is fear of having my
new van and/or some of it's expensive contents being robbed. Of course
I would try never to let it out of my sight and find a hotel with secure
parking, and there is a good chance nothing would happen, especially
way down south in Baja.
Maybe I will take the risk some day but for now I am taking the
advice of a lawyer friend of mine who is very experienced in travelling
in Baja that taking my van to Baja would probably be ill-advised and
is not worth the risk.
JM <jump...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3C279ECA...@earthlink.net...
Chris Schefler
Alan Sandoval <wtrplnet(removespam)@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3c282697$1...@news.newsgroups.com...
> I haven't read every word of every reply, but I've read enough.
>
> First off, anyone who spends ANY time in a border town is asking for
> trouble. That's been known for a LONG time. And why do "bordertowns" get
> like this? Could it be rich Americans looking for a lap dance?
At the time my car was burglarized in TJ I was not what you would call Rich,
and yes (gasp) I got a lap dance but that was not why I was in TJ. It was
my first stop in a camping trip all the way down Baja. I also had lunch and
a
couple of cervesas. The lap dance is not why I was there or why I was
robbed.
But let me get this straight. You obviously resent my angry call for a
boycott
of Mexico in protest of it's lawlessness and corruption yet you yourself
tell me
I should, in so many words, boycott border towns COMPLETELY or I am
asking for trouble. I don't see where you disagree with me then, or why
you objected so strongly to my position that you've warned me not to jibe
in front of you. You're saying the same thing I am. Stay the hell out of
any community that is unusuallly risky. Well I apologize for not exactly
which
towns in Mexico I should not spend "ANY time in" as you put it. I have
also heard Mexico City is a dangerous place. Is that a border town? It's
really a joke that you have warned me not to jibe in front of you which I
think I may safely interpret as a threat, because although you are more or
less
saying precisely what I did: that the best way to avoid becoming a crime
victim is to stay completely out of the dangerous cities at all times.
Would
you have been as indignant and threatened me if I had a list of cities that
should be boycotted that agree with your list, that is border towns, and
any equivalently dangerous city or town in terms of crime levels? Well
Alan why don't you enlighten me as to which towns it would not offend
you if I like you believed in boycotting them or if you prefer not spending
ANY time (thus ANY money) in them? Then will it be safe to jibe with
you? Since although you basically suggested precisely what I was
suggesting (only you know better which towns it is not offensive to
boycott, that is it is ok to boycott "border towns" and if I had only
advocated boycotting those and any other mexican cities with equivalant
crime rates, i.e. if I had recommended what you are recommendinng,
would you still have lashed out at me and warned me not to jibe in
front of you? Well please, do be so kind as tell me which cities you
approve of boycotting, so that we will be in complete agreement and
I can jibe in front of you.
Did you bother to read the part where I explained that one time in broad
daylight on a busy street in TJ my van window was smashed and my
laptop, suticase and all my clothes, and TV were stolen? Excuse the hell
out
of me for resenting that. Oops, I forgot, I have no right to complain
about that. It was something I "exuded" that was to blame, not the
guy who smashed my window and stole my shit . Well heck Alan I hope
you take this discovery of yours public. We need to release all the
prisoners. If you are right, then their victims got what they "exuded".
Does that mean it is totally the victims fault and the criminal is
blameless,
or are they both to blame?
You like me believe the smart thing to do is just to stay the hell
completely out of dangerous areas. But if you exude the right things
then is it ok to drive through border towns? Even stop for lunch
and a beer?. I guess you disapprove of (gasp) lap dances so I suppose
those are no-nos and bring crime upon us.
When I posted my original complaint and suggested, like you, that people do
not
spend ANY time in places where there is too much crime. I thought most
people
knew that Baja and Mexico in general was a third world country, with
rampant
corruption in government and police, substantially more crime than in the
US. I
thought it was more or less general knowledgge that risks in Mexico of being
stopped by police for
no reason and forced to pay a bribe, and that when you were pulled over or
stopped for a valid reason you also merely pay a bribe to the officer and
that's
the end of it, and there was much more risk of being the victim of a crime
in Mexico than the US.
I myself was burglarized of over $5k of valuables and no I don't think I
"exuded" anything that brought that on me. But I do agree with you that
if I had not spent ANY time in TJ it would not have happenned, and that
is all I suggested. What exactly angered you about my post, or were
you just in a mood to "exude" belligerence and disagree with somebody
even thought you in principle suggest the very same thing: don't spend
ANY time in areas where crime risks are high. Is that only border
towns Alan? Is it also a good idea to not spend ANY time in other
towns or regions with similarly high crime rates?
Anyway, I expected little or no response to my post. For some reason
I assumed most people would understand my fear of the risks and corrupt
police of Mexico and I also assumed I had a right to resent being
burglarized
for $5k of stuff and having to abort my plan to road trip Baja.
I certainly did not expect all this backlash. I think my lawyer friend who
has spent so much more time than me in Baja gave me good advice when
he advised me that driving my windsurfing van down Baja was more risk
than it was worth. I think he had some basis for that recommendation,
I don't think he pulled it out of thin air. Obviously nobody would ever
advise me not to drive a new, custom, expensive van across the U.S.
So may I assume then that if their was any substance to my friends
recommendation that Baja is indeed a place with a significantly higher
crime rate that in the US? I told him I had no intention of stopping
in TJ or Ensenada or any where else but driving all the way down
to Los Barillos, but he still thought it was a bad idea because of the
amount of money I have invested in my van and how much I prize
it. So is it ok for me to jibe in front of you, Alan, if I only avoid
Baja, Mexico City, border towns, and any other towns with equivalant
crime rates in Mexico?
My biggest mistake was cross posting this to the mexican newsgroups.
But I sure didn't expect such a large response, if any, I thought it
was well known that crime is much more rampant in Mexico than
in the US. I never knew it was politically incorrect or socially
unacceptable to be angry at being ripped off for over $5k and
having my vacation ruined just as it was starting. Damn, I guess
the guys that smashed my window and took my stuff must have
picked up on whatever it was I was "exuding" to bring that upon
myself.
>
> You get what you exude dude. Don't jibe in front of me.
Careful what you're exuding their Alan. Remember: you get
what you exude, and if I'm not mistaken you just exuded a
subtle threat of violence.
Technobarbarian
> If I'm a whiner then you've really outdone me. How did I upset you so
much?
You're a naive whiner, who wants the rest of the world to be the same
as the US to suit your tastes.
> I guess you hate me because I admitted I am affluent. I get alot of
that.
Hello? Earth to Chris: I drive a very nice motorhome in Mexico and
spend months at a time traveling. Are you really dumb enough that you think
I have time to worry about your money?
Crime happens everywhere. The last time we were in Mexico a mini-van
parked at our house was stolen. Should I now start whining that everyone
should boycott Tucson? Hell, Sanborn's Insurance says we're more likely to
have our motorhome stolen in the States than we are in Mexico. Hell, boycott
the USA--they have waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much crime there.
Dennis
rkuntz
According to The Dog it is possible to filter or block messages from specific
posters. Chris appears to be fool enough to warrant such treatment. See you all
on other healthier threads.
Bye, Ray
The Dog
BTW, Ray... It also works quite well on subjects. For instance,
you can boycott threads involving "Boycotts", "PWC" or anything
that has become tediously "Formula".
Dog
rkuntz wrote:
>
> My apologies,
> According to The Dog it is possible to filter or block messages from specific
> posters. Chris appears to be fool enough to warrant such treatment. See you all
> on other healthier threads.
> Bye, Ray
--
Brian "The Dog" Cunningham
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning
Some days you're the dog,
and some days you're the hydrant.
Juan E Navarro
anarchic, lawless, fitlthy, dirty shithole", and two paragraphs later
say it's a wonderful country. Then you complain about my reaction to
your opinion, and your reaction to my opinion is much worse. In fact,
you are insulting me, which is something that I didn't do and won't
do. Just as you, I expressed my opinion. Is that incorrect?
Just because I disagree with you and find yourself selfish and
arrogant (yes, you read my post correctly in that sense) then you
conclude that I don't tolerate different opinions and I think the
ideal world is one where we all think and act the same. Another
contradiction, since the intolerant one is obviously you.
And to get things right, let me tell you the following:
1) No, I don't think it's incorrect to complain about corruption or
anything. I never said that.
2) No, I don't think corruption is good. I never said that. Corruption
is, indeed, one of the worst problems in several countries.
3) Yes, I think you are selfish because:
- All you care about is being able to safely park your van while you
enjoy a lap dance.
- You don't like poverty because it's dangerous and ruins the
landscape.
- But mostly, because if I think you are selfish then you think I'm
a fucking idiot, and you feel insulted just because I didn't like
what you wrote.
4) Yes, I think you are arrogant. "Fix the country, or I won't visit
you" admits no double lectures.
5) I think your post is insulting to Mexicans. The fact that you
repeatedly say that Mexicans are good people does not cover your
insults. I think your attitude is also insulting. You may never
understand this, but driving your luxury vehicle and flaunting your
wealth in front of people that are struggling hard just to get
something to eat is insulting.
6) I think you are an ignorant, if you qualify Mexican cities as
shitholes. Have you been to Guanajuato, San Cristobal de las Casas
or Oaxaca? Your insulting ignorance comes through in your sentence
"...strippers, drugs, or other seedier aspects of the indiginous
culture."
7) I also think you are naive, if you expect no disenting response to
your call and if you believe your boycott call is going to have any
effect. I certainly predict no people is going to refrain from
visiting Mexico just because of your lack of common sense.
Chris Schefler wrote:
> for my benefit.. I don't expect them to prepare the country for my visit.
> Where did you get that?
>From your post. I quote, in case you don't remember what you wrote:
"Get your shit together Mexico! We want to come and spend money and
visit
and enjoy all the wonderful
things you have to offer, but first you have to make the effort and do
the
work to transform your country
into a safe, civilized, modern, civil society."
> Do you really think I am arrogant to lament the fact that a window was
> smashed out of my van and my computer, suitcase, and TV were broken?
That's what you've been whining about.
> What country are you from?
Why is that important? Not from Mexico, if that's what you want to know.
> What the fuck is this, the Soviet Union? Is it really so outrageous
> that I have my own priorities, things I would like to see done that
> maybe not everybody else feels as strongly about, and to have the
> arrogant audacity to present my argument as to a problem that I
> see, that I believe can be improved, and that I personally, largely
> for personal reasons, place a high priority on.
>
> Sorry Juan. I'll never again make a suggestion about something
> I'd like to see done in Baja until I first interview every resident
> and make sure they all agree. Obviously you find it reprehensible
> that I have dared to push for a goal that I personally feel strongly about.
> Next time, I'll be sure to get your permission before I dare to have
> my own opinions, priorities, and vehement suggestions.
>
> Somewhere along the line I seem to have picked up this crazy
> idea that I am entitled to think independently, have my own
> opinions and priorities, and argue for things I personally feel
> most strongly about. Obviously you consider that the height
> of arrogance and selfishness. I guess you believe we should
> all think alike and only dare push for changes that most every
> body else wants too. But how can we all have the same ideas,
> desires, and priorities? I guess we should all watch mainstream
> corporate news networks and accept uncritically everything they
> tell us. That way we would all more or less think alike and nobody
> will outrage you by having the absurdly arrogant and self-centered
> audacity to make a suggestion.
Now, to paraphrase you: "Where did you get that?".
> You are a fucking idiot.
I'm willing to continue this discussion as long as you change your
tone.
Mike F
self-duplicating, defensive ... and, I might emphasize ... repetitive and
redundant. It was the form of the post, not its message, that I agreed
warranted some derision. It also apparently set off some people who have
been to Mexico without experiencing those problems. I suspect your emphasis
on expecting to park a high-end vehicle in a ratty third-world neighborhood
is unrealistic, but then what are ideals for if not to be sought? Your
message, to me, was fine; it was the presentation I considered extreme. I
most certainly support your right to complain about the incident and the
country; anyone who resents complaints can just suck it up ... or complain
about others' complaints.
I agree with your characterization of much of Mexico, which is one reason
I've visited there only three or four times, and only conservatively then. I
just don't think its attractions -- to me -- outweigh its hassles and risks.
I'd love to drive my van to Costa Rica and spend a winter there, so I bought
a book called something like "Driving to Costa Rica". The book quickly
convinced me that any trip I take to Costa Rica will be 1) by air and 2)
after the world has calmed down a bit, including the kinds of threats you've
experienced. I envy people who are free-spirited and laid-back enough to
comfortably wander around third-world countries; I'm not one of them. Heck,
I have trouble putting up with just the heat and traffic and theft and
antagonism (speargun assault on a windsurfer being ignored by the police) on
Maui; add open crime and bad water and I have better places to visit. I see
plenty enough criminal culture right here in the U.S., thank you.
I bit off a smaller chunk than you when I wrote the Clatskanie, WA Chamber
of Commerce about the flagrant, wide-spread, repeated, aggressive,
frightening, life-threatening anti-visitor activities of the natives around
one of the Columbia's more unique and often more windy beaches. The town
wanted to attract windsurfers, but the inbred, backwoods, butt-humping,
local rubes were waging war to stop us from coming.
The rednecks won, because the town and county did nothing to stop the
one-sided warfare. They sent me a lengthy letter addressing the town's
desire to have us visit and its new campground (a very good deal!), but not
addressing the open warfare against windsurfers at the beach seven miles
away. We lost a good windsurfing area (undeniably the finest BEACH on the
Columbia, often the only wind, and certainly the steadiest wind I've ever
seen on the river), and the dried-up town lost a good cash cow to the local
rebels. Until the county starts protecting visitors from deliberate crime
targeted at the tourists, Clatskanie/Jones Beach will probably continue to
see few sailors. I've gotten my .357 out more times at Jones Beach than I
have during the whole other 25 years I have owned it, and I stopped sailing
there almost a decade ago.
I suspect that if Mexico were a safe place to visit, it would be buried in
tourist dollars and jobs, considering how beautiful much of it is and how
friendly its "normal" people are. But you're right; combine its low-life
minority with its corrupt political and police majority, and it has become a
nightmare for tourism and tourists. We miss out on great vacation prospects;
they miss a chance to be overrun by gringos.
Mike \m/
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fG%V7.16783$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Thanks for generally supporting or at least understanding my
> perspective Mike but I disagree that my post was extreme or
> deserved derision.
>
> You obviously understand my reasoning for abandoning my
> long awaited and eagerly anticipated plans for an extended
> vacation in Baja. You obviously agree that my decision is
> reasonable and based on legitimate risks, and I do not claim
> that my decision is the right one, only that it is the right one for me.
> I still might fly but unfortunately I think it would be a bad idea
> to bring my new van down there even thought that would be my
> ideal.
>
> I don't know why you think my post was extreme or deserved
> derision. Is it "extreme" to resent my vehicle being broken into,
> my new state of the art laptop, my entire suitcase, and my TV
> being stolen? Is it extreme to be so disappointed and discouraged
> by that that I elect to abort my trip?
>
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Snip
Mike F
avoid traveling where they wish on public roads. I wouldn't want to share
the same small space with that attitude, but he should have some expectation
of safety, ideally. I resent the hell out of the fact that I'm unwilling to
defend even a $40,000 automobile, let alone an EXPENSIVE car, and often feel
compelled to set all kinds of alarms and physical barriers when I park even
my much older, much cheaper, vehicles. Anyone trying to steal my generic
14-year-old windsurfing van when it's parked in a high-risk spot (including
any large city, IMO) will need a crowbar, a heavy hammer, some extensive
expertise in alarm and vehicle-disabling systems, good earplugs, a lot of
time ... and a kevlar vest if I'm nearby -- to make much progress. I'm just
not willing to wait until I've lost my second (or third?) vehicle like one
friend did before going to that extreme.
Chris has every right to feel that defensive of his rights to safety in
public. If he has no right to park an expensive vehicle on a public street,
then a good-looking woman has no right to walk down that same street and a
guy wearing the wrong color of shirt has no right to walk through some
gang's turf.
Mike \m/
"David Eduardo" <radio...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:amXV7.14703$1_6.298...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
Mike F
of them:
3. We SHOULD be able to park on a public street safely ...
5. No matter what we're driving.
7. I'll bet literally millions of U.S. citizens limit or avoid travel in
Mexico because of its reputation ... and because of AAA's formal public
warnings about travel there.
Mike \m/
"Juan E Navarro" <jnav...@cs.rice.edu> wrote
> 3) Yes, I think you are selfish because:
> - All you care about is being able to safely park your van while you
> enjoy a lap dance.
>
> 5) I think your post is insulting to Mexicans. ... driving your luxury
vehicle and flaunting your
> wealth in front of people that are struggling hard just to get
> something to eat is insulting.
>
> 7) I also think you are naive, if you ... believe your boycott call is
Juan E Navarro
>
> While I don't disagree with all of Juan's comments, I do differ with three
> of them:
> 3. We SHOULD be able to park on a public street safely ...
That would be certainly nice. But if you want Mexico to solve its
poverty, crime and corruption problems just because you won't enjoy
Mexico otherwise, then I think that you are selfish.
> 5. No matter what we're driving.
> 7. I'll bet literally millions of U.S. citizens limit or avoid travel in
> Mexico because of its reputation ... and because of AAA's formal public
> warnings about travel there.
Exactly... not precisely because of THIS boycott call.
++*Juan--
Chris Schefler
Mike F <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
> My comments referred to the fact that your post was repetitive, redundant,
> self-duplicating, defensive ... and, I might emphasize ... repetitive and
> redundant. It was the form of the post, not its message, that I agreed
> warranted some derision.
Sorry about that. I think I wrote it the other night after having come home
from
a party, and I was a little drunk. I very well may have said some stupid
things,
and I've already decided my Boycott idea was a bad one. I'm calling off the
Boycott and I will write a letter to the President of Mexico and offer my
apology to him and his people for my reckless and ill-conceived boycott,
and take full financial responbility for reimbursing the nation or any and
all resultant economic damages.
The alcohol is probably the reason I repeated myself and didn't bother
to proofread. But if it really was that repetetive and redundant, I'm
surprised people even read it. To be perfectly honest, I really didn't
think anybody would read it, consider it interestiing enough to them
to warrant wading all the way through it, let alone responding or
getting worked up about it. It was a gripe because of my disappointment
of finally deciding to cancel my van trip down Baja that I have planning
and looking forward to for a very long time.
> It also apparently set off some people who have
> been to Mexico without experiencing those problems. I suspect your
emphasis
> on expecting to park a high-end vehicle in a ratty third-world
neighborhood
> is unrealistic, but then what are ideals for if not to be sought?
That's the very same conclusion I came to after much deliberation and
talking
to people more experienced with Baja and Mexicoo than I.
Your
> message, to me, was fine; it was the presentation I considered extreme. I
> most certainly support your right to complain about the incident and the
> country; anyone who resents complaints can just suck it up ... or complain
> about others' complaints.
Well I was really just venting my disappointment about feeling it was most
prudent to cancel my trip I had been very much looking forward too.
Honestly,
it was really not worthy of any of your attention. Honest to God I was
surprised
anybody took any interest in it and at how seriously they took it and how I
had somehow offended them.
Anybody who doubts my love and respect of Mexicans can search
at groups.google.com for "Chris Schefler Mexican" and the Web as
well and you can see how much time I have devoted defending Mexicans
against racist Mexican-haters which we do have especially in California,
arguing in favor of Mexican immigration, and other stuff. Anybody who
takes a look at my countless posts supporting and defending Mexican
residents and immigration on Usenet and the Web can not seriously
doubt for a moment my respect and affection for Mexicans. I am such
and passionate advocate for them (I don't claim to be have made much
difference but 2 articles I wrote years ago in support of Mexican immigrants
and about the injustice of the Mexican American war) are circulated by
many people around the Web. I don't know how many are out there
but it seems to be spreading. I think that very conclusively proves I am
in no way racist towards Mexicans so even though I don't remember every
thing I wrote and am not interested in re-reading it, I can say with
absolute confidence that I made no subtle or explicit racist or remarks
of any kind.
You better believe I resent the break in to my van in Baja and the theft
of over $5,000 in stuff, including my suitcase and everything in it, forcing
me to abort my vacation on its very first day. Some people seem to think
it was my fault, if I recall the fact that I had a lap dance was one theory
of how I brought the theft on myself. I did not stop in TJ to get a lap
dance. I stopped for lunch and a beer and was persuaded by a persistent
dancer to buy a dance. But I never would have had the dance if I'd
known that would cause a burglary and ruin my vacation. But I have
doubts about that theory, because I haven't had a lap dance in at
least 2 years but my house was burglarized this summer. So I
don't think that one was caused by a lap dance. Someone suggested
I might be getting burglarized because of something I "exude". I think
they mean something like Karma. But I can honestly say I never have
and never will stolen anything in my entire life, or at least since I was
nine or ten, nor commited any other crimes. I feel sorry for these
poor burglars who I am somehow causing to burglarize me. Would
be terrible if one were caught and did time for break in to my house
or care and stealing from me, since it is not their fault, it's mine.
I agree and it frustrates me that such a great destination is for those
reasons
more or or less inaccessible. And that was one of the same points I know
I was trying to make in my post. That Mexicans are missing out on a huge
source of income from tourist industry and will continue to until they clean
up their act.
I'm still not exactly sure what said that was so offensive. I certainly
don't
think my redundancy and repetion, i.e. poor style, warranted being derided
and insulted. I also don't feel it is offensive for me to complain about
crime
in Baja especially since I was the vicitm of a serious crime there. You're
GD right that pissed me off and fail to see the offense in telling that
story
hear and being angry bout it. It is relevant to this newsgroup because
Baja's a great place to windsurf and if I had known better how easy it
is to get robbed their in the city in broad daylight it would not have
happenned.
I thought maybe others here would have stories of their own experiences
in Baja, good or bad. Maybe my boycott idea was not one of my best
ideas, but I owe nobody an apology for making a political suggestion
they disagreed with. I also didn't mean a general boycott of Baja, I meant
a windsurfing boycott, which is more or less your policy toward Baja too,
I added the other mexican cross-posts as an afterthought right before I
sent it and but as I wrote it I was adressing windsurfers, not calling for a
general boycott of Mexico by all Americans. But when at the last moment
I cross-posted to the Mexican newsgroup that changed the context and
made it look in those newsgroups that I was calling for all Americans
to boycott Mexico.
I am really amazed that people took it so seriously. You'd think I'd called
for all Mexicans to be lined up and shot or something. I really think alot
of people (including me) wasted alot of time and energy. My opinion on
that and the anger I was venting about crime hindering my ability to take
my van to Baja. Apparently that is very selfish of me, not only to be angry
from the man who burglarized my van in Baja (especially since it was my
fault), but also be frustrated with the criminals and corrupt police who not
only make me very reluctant to travel there when I otherwise would love to
but
also hurt the Mexican economy and thus all the Mexicans by being such a
damper
on tourism. I guess its selfish of me to resent criminals (even ones who I
was
victimized by) and corrupt police. I'll have to think on that one a while
too.
Does any body here (or anywhere else) truly feel benevolent or indifferent
towards serious criminals, even if they are a victim? If that is the case
there
would be no reason for them to testify in court if they were needed because
they would either not care if the person was conficted or actually be
rooting
for their accquittal, because apparently it is selfish and arrogant to
resent
criminals.
\> Mike \m/
Mike F
through it, that is. The last time you went on like that, a year ago or so,
you also admitted to being drunk. Those of us who remember that spotted the
symptoms right away and went into RAPID SCAN mode ... or straight to DELETE
... right away.
It has always amazed me how easily some people are offended ... just as they
are sometimes surprised how offended I can get from THEIR offhand remarks.
As for recanting your call for a boycott .... heck, what other means does
any individual HAVE to try to change something like this? If I thought a
boycott ... or toilet paper in the trees ... or letting the air out of their
tires ... would improve the situation at Clatskanie/Jones Beach, I'd do it
immediately. But since they have been informed of the problems there many
times, yet deny it or will not and/or can not solve it, and have seen a
downturn in tourism as a result, any economic impact is self-inflicted. The
place isn't THAT great a sailing spot that I'm going to escalate the problem
to the state. But it IS a loss, considering its many good points. I'll get
there again, if for no other reason than that I have a bigger gun now. ;-)
Mike \m/
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote
Tauras
the bad karma dogs that the locals periodically shear to keep humble ;)
http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/Baja.html
Tauras
www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/surfreport/
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:263W7.17057$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Benjamin Kaufman
attention though.
Ben
Scott
> indiginous culture. But my
You think that strippers and drugs are all part of the indigenous culture?
Think again sport. Please stay home - you give the rest of us who like the
Latin culture and who do not equate it with partying, strip bars, and drugs,
a bad name.
By the way, I've been going to Mexico for 20+ years and never had anything
stolen and never had any encounters with the police.
SW
Will Vasquez
You're so right-on.
You must have a bit of humility when you travel in the Baja. Show some
respect and plan your trip according to some widely-known rules (like
don't pull over to the side of the road at night to sleep, plan your
stops and do some research before you go).
There are a lot of resources out there to plan a trip to Baja - I have
linked some on my site at:
http://www.ispros.com/windsurf/labay.html
Not too worried about getting too many sailors out there.... I must
admit, Baja does "filter-out" people who don't want to deal with a "3rd
world" country. Thanks ok, really. ;)
-Will-
Lois Stufflebeam wrote:
>
> "Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Rent your vehicle and your gear.
> > Better yet, join me in boycotting Mexico until they >become a civilized
> country where one
> > can travel and bring valuable without fear of being >vicitiimized, robbed,
> extorted, etc.
>
> Boy, I can hear all the Baja sailors cheering, more beachfront property
> available for them, and fewer people on the water.
>
> I have so many friends who travel in Baja, and we have also gone a number of
> times without incident. But you do have to have a different mind set. Don't
> go down there looking like the rich American, or acting like the ugly
> American. You are just setting yourself up as a target.
>
> Mexico is a wonderful place to visit, and the Mexicans are really warm
> lovely people. And the sailing is great. Looks like there will be wind
> later this week in San Felipe, I think I'll go pack the van.
>
> Lois
Chris Schefler
Juan E Navarro <jnav...@cs.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:3C290D37...@cs.rice.edu...
> You keep contradicting yourself: First you say that "Mexico is an
> anarchic, lawless, fitlthy, dirty shithole", and two paragraphs later
> say it's a wonderful country.
I don't see the contradiction. There are things I love about Mexico
and things I hate about Mexico. What I meant was that Mexican
cities and institutions and infrastructure is a mess but I don't think
that means I cannot love many other aspects of the country. What
I love most about Mexico is the warmth and friendliness of the Mexican
people the higher priority they seem to place on family and community,
compared to Americans.
Then you complain about my reaction to
> your opinion, and your reaction to my opinion is much worse. In fact,
> you are insulting me, which is something that I didn't do and won't
> do. Just as you, I expressed my opinion. Is that incorrect?
Yes, mea culpa. I insulted you and I think some others here.
But I did not throw the first stone. If you insult me yes quite
often I will insult you back. Hang on, let me go back
and read your first post to me and my first response. I don't
remember who got rude first, maybe it was me...
be right back...
Ok, your first contribution to this thread according to the time
stamp is this:
|
| Translation: I'm exceptionally rich and privileged, so I deserve
special
| treatment.
Which he actually got.
Do you deny that you were agreeing with the above insult
that I claimed I was "exceptionally rich and privileged and
deserve special treatment"?
I know that was not your line but you quoted it and responded
to it, and I think the meaning of your response not only implied
clearly that you agreed, but that I actually got (special treatment),
which is an obvious reference to my being bulgarized.
I'm really trying to figure out your logic Juan you said you did not
and will not insult me. Boy your first point sure looks like an
insult to me. I'm pretty sure it's not a compliment. Yes, I consider
it an insult that you imply I deserved what I got (the "special
treatment"). Yeah, I you take offense at your quoting that
line, apparently agreeing with it, then insinuating I deserved
to get burglarized. I hope at some point you will get to
your explanation of how being burglarized was deserved.
If that is the case than I guess the guy who did the crime
is a good citizen? Sorry, I'm having trouble following that
logic and also the logic of your above statement that you
(did not and would not insult me, when you did insult me,
and you go on to insult me several more times in
this post.
Yes, you clearly insulted me with your first post and
I am glad I ripped you a new one.
I haven't read all the posts yet but I do hope at some point
somebody actually quotes a verbatim statement I made in my
original post that was offensive. I know I used a bad word,
shithole. Was that what got people so fired up? Would have
been unoffensive if I sued the word "shabby ghetto" instead?
Yes, shithole is a bad word. But is that what justified
all the derision and insults? That insult was not directed
at any person nor is it an insult to the Mexicans. It was
definitely a comment on their filthy cities, shanty towns some
of which lack sewage facilities and literally are full of shit. It is not
a pretty word but it is an apt description of what I was referring
to. Ever been to Harlem? Deep, deep, deep harlem where whites
are warned not to go. I have gone there inspite of being warned
by locals that I was taking a big risk. But I simply do not fear
people just because their color is different or they are poorer
than me. I wanted to see Harlem. Guess what? It's a shit hole,
at least many areas of it but I do not consider saying so an insult
to any person or people who reside there. It's just reality. Was that
the word that incited you and others to insult me?
I guess I said I had a luxurious van with an expensive sound
system. Sorry, didn't mean to offend anybody. Sue me. But that
in NO WAY implies that I am exceptionally rich, privileged,
or expect special treatment. I didn't know it was offensive
to admit to owning something expensive. It was relevant to
my whole point, that I couldn't take it to Baja. And by the
way to do so would not only be putting my van at risk but
my life too.
But will
somebody please explain that the fact that I said I had an
expensive car translates into "I am exceptionally rich
and privileged and deserve special treatment" I know
that as not your line but you copied it and quoted it in
your first post.
There is no way I insulted anybody in my orginal post, although
I was highly critical of some aspects of Mexico (the country, not the
people, I was very careful to make that clear, and I have spent so
much time advocating Mexican immigration rights and flaming
people who make racist statements about Mexicans that even you,
with your funny logic, can never accuse me of having racist feelings
or making any racist statements about Mexicans. I have actually been
frequently accused of loving Mexico more than the U.S
If you doubt me search the www.groups.google.com and www.google.com
for "Chris Schefler Mexican".
so it is
hard for me to see how I insulted anybody. You may disagree
with me and think my opinions are absurd, and I have called
off the boycott and realized it wasn't the right strategy. I also will
take full responsibility for reimbursing Mexico for any and all
economic damage resulting from my ill-conceived boycott. But
I have a right to boycott Mexico and I intend to. That is my
prerogative and nobody has any right to attack or insult me
for choosing to do that. I also proposed that anybody else
who agreed with me do the same but nobody has to do what
I say so again I fail to see exactly what I did that was so
egregiously offensive and brought on the first round of
hostile, rude, and insulting responses. I don't think the
idea of a boycott is "offensive" and justifies being derided,
mocked and insulted...correct me if I'm wrongl..
>
> Just because I disagree with you and find yourself selfish and
> arrogant (yes, you read my post correctly in that sense) then you
Hold on there...remember a few paragraphs back you said "I did
not and will not insult you". Is calling me selfish and arrogant
supposed to be a compliment? But I lost any and all respect
for you after your first insulting post so that is why I come across
as arrogant to you. Since you leveled the first insults I have no
qualms about telling you that I find you to be highly unintelligent
by virtue of some of the claims and logic you have layed out
(especially below, later in this post, you really make a fool
of yourself).
I think part of the reason you are so immature as to insult
somebody merely for complaining about crime and corruption
in a country he loves in so many ways, that I can safely assume
you are a teenager, probably in high school. You are also extremely
rude. You better believe I'll give you a good tounge lashing if
you throw the first insult .
I haven't found any objection to anything I said in my first post
that can in any way be construed as justification to be insulted
but just the by some of the patently absurd things some of your
are saying, and your incredible interest in my post and this thread,
it's actually kind of fascinating.
I know there are 4 or 5 people in this thread who have expressed
direct or indirect insults or derision towards me. I suppose that
type of pack behavior makes you feel that you must be right
because you outnumber me, and it empowers all of you to
start hurling insults for no logical reason (at least that I have
yet discovered). But it's cowards who are emboldened by
attacking in groups.
> conclude that I don't tolerate different opinions and I think the
> ideal world is one where we all think and act the same. Another
> contradiction, since the intolerant one is obviously you.
Well define intolerant. You better believe I am intolerant of anybody
like you who feels justified in insulting me when I have never, ever
had any correspondence or conversation with you, but merely
expressed a legitimate, defensible opinion that was
primarily political and refering not to any one person or people but
to criminals, corrupt cops, and the Mexican country (it's infrastructure).
You better believe I am intolerant of you.
>
> And to get things right, let me tell you the following:
>
> 1) No, I don't think it's incorrect to complain about corruption or
> anything. I never said that.
Ok, I was just trying to figure out what how I offended you and deserved
your insults.
>
> 2) No, I don't think corruption is good. I never said that. Corruption
> is, indeed, one of the worst problems in several countries.
>
> 3) Yes, I think you are selfish because:
>
> - All you care about is being able to safely park your van while you
> enjoy a lap dance.
Well I don't feel like I committed any crime or sin by enjoying a lap dance,
I also don't consider it "selfish" to resent my car being burglarized,
vandalized,
and having $5,000 worth of stuff taken from me. Yes I do care about being
able to safely park my car and not have it burglarized. You don't honestly
think that is selfish do you? And of course it is patently to absurd that
those
things are "the only things I care about". You sure come up with some
real doosies, Juan. You're a real brain surgeon. A sheer genious.
Getting back to your insuation that I got the "special treatment" (burglary)
I deserved, i.e. you robvious insinuation that I deserved to be burglarized.
Is it because I got a lap dance? Well I only stopped in TJ on my way
south for lunch and a beer. It was the dancer that approached me and
persisted with me until she persuaded me to purchase a lap dance. But
even if I was in town just to get lap dances I still don't think that means
I deserved to be burglarized. And I make no apologies for being angry
at the thief who did it, the high crime rate in Mexico, and the corrupt
police. Obviously that is not "selfish and arrogant" because you said
you agree with me that criminals, and corruption are baaaad.
> - You don't like poverty because it's dangerous and ruins the
> landscape.
> - But mostly, because if I think you are selfish then you think I'm
> a fucking idiot, and you feel insulted just because I didn't like
> what you wrote.
>
> 4) Yes, I think you are arrogant. "Fix the country, or I won't visit
> you" admits no double lectures.
Oh, it is arrogant of me to refuse to travel to a country where I was
burglarized and where crime and corruption are rampant? Or to
suggest that Mexico should get those things under control so they
can enjoy a booming tourist industry? Ok, well since my selection
to boycott a crime ridden country where I have been burglarized
is arrogant, does that mean I have an obligation to continue to travel
there in order to not be arrogant? Or is it my objection to being
relieved of $5,000 in property, having my window broken and
my vacation ruined, is being angered by that and deciding to
stop travelling there arrogant? Boy that's another doosie Juan.
>
> 5) I think your post is insulting to Mexicans. The fact that you
> repeatedly say that Mexicans are good people does not cover your
> insults. I think your attitude is also insulting. You may never
> understand this, but driving your luxury vehicle and flaunting your
> wealth in front of people that are struggling hard just to get
> something to eat is insulting.
Well no I did not say anything that was insulting to Mexicans and if
you do the search of Usenet I suggested you will say how much
effort I have expended arguing in favor of Mexican immigration
rights and flaming people who make racist hate speech against
Mexicans. You're really either very, very stupid our out of touch
with reality. You remember how often I expressed my respect
and affection and admiration for Mexicans, which is a quote,
but in the same sentence you say I am insulting to them. You're
dreaming, you little prick. There is not one racist insinuation
or anything in my original post that could possibly be construed
as racist. You really seem to be struggling to come up with any
reasonable excuse for your insults to me. Yeah, I'll insult you
all day long but I at least I can articulate why you deserve it
and even quote your insults.
Well if you read my post I explained that I had decided it would
be a very bad idea to drive a luxury vehicle in Baja, or at least
not a risk I want to take. But there is not hing arrogant about
driving a luxury car. Do you really believe that all people who
drive luxury cars are "flaunting" their wealth and have an obligation
to never drive their luxury cars in poor areas because they might
insult somebody who is poor. Does that mean I am insulting
homeless people by owning a house.
>
> 6) I think you are an ignorant, if you qualify Mexican cities as
> shitholes. Have you been to Guanajuato, San Cristobal de las Casas
> or Oaxaca? Your insulting ignorance comes through in your sentence
> "...strippers, drugs, or other seedier aspects of the indiginous
> culture."
No I have not been to that city but I've been to lots of Mexican cities
and yes I have found them all to be shabby, filthy, and crawling
with strip clubs, prostitutes and drug dealers. I can't walk down
the main street in Puerto Vallarta after dinner without somebody
walking up to me and offering to sell me pot or drugs. I was not
looking for either nor was I wearing a sign saying I was but yes
I find that to be pretty seedy. I could give plenty of other examples
but do you really believe that anybody who finds a country to be
full of shithole cities and seedy culture to be arrogant?
Do I have an obligation to describe PV as clean, modern, beautiful
and totally free of crime. It's not. It's a shithole rampant with
crime. Sorry you find that reality offensive but if you're not old
enough to hear about such truths or hear words like shit the
you maybe you should hang out in a disney forum or something
But I make no apology for describing the cities I have been to as
crime ridden shitholes.
>
> 7) I also think you are naive, if you expect no disenting response to
> your call and if you believe your boycott call is going to have any
> effect. I certainly predict no people is going to refrain from
> visiting Mexico just because of your lack of common sense.
You are truly an imbecile if you for a moment suspected I actually
thought I had the power to create a boycott of Mexico with a post
on usenet. And I was only suggesting that windsurfers boycott mexico.
That is what I meant when I wrote it and just before I sent it, as an
afterthought I added the crossposts to the mexico groups.
But listen carefully you little prick. This is America. I have every right
to call for a boycott of any country for a legitimate reason such as a
protest of their corrupt cops. If you disagree with it, tough shit. I have
a right to that opinion and you have every right to disagree but you have
provided not one shred of a reason that makes any sense at all or has
any basis in fact, nor have you quoted anything from my post, that even
begins to give you the right to tell me I deserved to be robbed.
My concusion about you is an insult but it is not intended merely to
insult you, I also happen to really believe it an
d for all the reasons
I have explained above: you are an absolute moron and miserable
little prick.
Now buzz off and don't you ever email me again. You and I have
nothing more to say to each other. You have done an excellent job
of demonstrating your remarkably stunted intelligence and your
total lack of any reasonable justification to insult me as you have.
Earlier I regretted calling you a fucking idiot, but now I believe
it more than ever.
I'm not going to waste any more time responding to the other imbeciles
who attacked me here because I don't expect to find the answer to the
riddle of why all you miserable little punks attacked me because I
complained I could not go windsurfing in Baja because I had been
burglarized there and felt it was very likely to happen again if I went
down there in my luxury van.
I think I know why you all have insulted me, derided me, but can't
seem to come up with any justification that holds up to logic or
is a direct quote from my post that in any way by any stretch
of the imagination justifies your attacks. Only one of you is smart
enough and bold enough to admit the truth of why he found
my post offensive, but all of you alluded to it. You were insulted
because I said I had a luxury expensive windsurfing van with
a very expensive sound system in it. Jeaoulsy is pitiful, but guess
what guys? What I might consider expensive another person
might consider cheap. There is no way you can conclude from
anything I posted in this thread that I am "exceptionally rich"
or what I mean by "expensive". Guess what guys? There are
people out there who consider a $10,000 van conversion
an expensive luxury. There are others who consider a $250,000
for a Ferrarie pocket change. Guess what guys? Even poor
people own things they consider expensive and luxurious.
You can't make ANY conclusions from my statement
that I have an exensive, luxurious an with an expensive sound
system as to how rich or poor I am. Because "expensive"
is a relative word and means something different to every person.
Guess what guys? Most Mexicans consider all Americans affluent,
and with good reason. Our standard of living and average incomes
are far higher than theirs. Yes, my friend told me to disguise me
affluence. All he meant was don't wear too nice of clothes (yes
even poor people have nice clothes) or an expensive looking watch
(I don't own an expensive watch but I can dress up nice and in
a city like PV I would be viewed by many many mexicans as
"affluent".
You guys have NO idea how much money I have or don't
have. And not only is it none of your GD business but it doesn't
matter. It's pitiful that you all attacked me because I said I own
something I consider expensive and was afraid to take it to
Baja because I had been burglarized their in the past. Why
on Earth do you care whether what I consider an "expensive"
van a $10,000 one or a $100,000 one. It doesn't matter.
All that matters is that I consider it expensive and it is a
prized possession and I with very good reason am afraid
to take windsurfing in Baja where I really want to go because
there is a risk of another burglary that I've decided I don't
want to accept.
If you REALLY care whether I am rich or poor why don't
you order a credit report on me. But you all are truly pitiful
if you care how much money I have and all the more so if
you make any effor whatsover to try to find out.
It's none of your GD business. And I can't believe you care.
What difference does it make to you if my van is worth
$1,000, $10,000 or $100,000. All that matters is that to
ME it is expensive, a luxury, and a prized possession. If
you dig around enough and pry into this issue and know where
to look, you might be able to find out whether I am rich,
poor, or in between. But why on earth would you care?
You obviously do because you all made an issue of it.
Ok guys, I'll let you know since you're SO interested, my
van is only worth about $10,000 and I earn a salary that
can only be described as modest. If you dig around you can
confirm this but you shouldn't care. It's not important. All
that matters to the main point I was making is that I love
my van and with good reason am afraid to take it to Baja.
If you guys weren't so pitiful this would actually be amusing.
Jealousy
is such a pitiful thing but even more pitiful is that your jealousy
springs out of false, unsubstantiated ASSUMPTIONS and
that all of you made such a big deal out of how awful and
arrogant of me it was to say I owned an van that I consider
expensive and luxurious. One thing I can assure you all though,
with your pitiful, absurd, and jealous attitude about money
which is the one complaint that every one of those of you
who attacked and insulted me all leveled, makes it pretty
obvious to me that money is WAY to important to you
and you probably have very little and never will. But what
really shocks and amuses me was not only that so many
of you actually read my long and rambling post which
really wasn't that interesting, was it? Like I told somebody
else here if one of you had written it I can assure you I
would not have had any interest in reading past the first
paragraph, let alone any interest responding, let alone
getting worked up about it. But I'll tell you this, I was
shocked when I first saw that somebody, more surprising
still, several people had actually bothered to read the whole
thing and even respond. Never in my wildest dreams was
I prepared to be insulted by you.
Yes, I have a van that I prize, consider an expensive luxury,
and with very good reason but with much regreat feel I
cannot take to Baja. GET OVER IT!!!!!!
JESUS H CHRIST!!!
David Eduardo
>
> I guess I said I had a luxurious van with an expensive sound
> system. Sorry, didn't mean to offend anybody. Sue me. But that
> in NO WAY implies that I am exceptionally rich, privileged,
> or expect special treatment. I didn't know it was offensive
> to admit to owning something expensive. It was relevant to
> my whole point, that I couldn't take it to Baja. And by the
> way to do so would not only be putting my van at risk but
> my life too.
Hint #1: it has to do with your attitude (although it might have todo with
your drinking, something you confessed to have been doing before posting
yesterday).
>
> But will
> somebody please explain that the fact that I said I had an
> expensive car translates into "I am exceptionally rich
> and privileged and deserve special treatment" I know
> that as not your line but you copied it and quoted it in
> your first post.
Hint #2: It has to do with your attitude (although you can continue trying
to make the rest of the world behave like the US, with the chance you might
win a body bag as a prize for trying).
J. Manuel Urrutia
(A bunch of mea culpas and other fluff)
Look, I hope that you learned some important lessons:
1) Don't ever post drunk. You'll leave to regret it as the Web has a
very long memory.
2) Don't present yourself as a target for that small minority that prays
on the foolish, neither in your hometown or anyone else's.
3) Travel lightly and don't assume that because you are an Amuuurrrican
you will be free from harm.
4) If having a lap-dance is risky in the US, what can you expect in TJ's
zona roja?
--
- J. Manuel Urrutia | El que tiene mas saliva, -
- urrutia...@ucla.edu (remove TAKEOUT!) | traga mas pinole -
-----If opinions are found in this note, they are mine and not UC's-----
rollinnufffatter
J. Manuel Urrutia:
"J. Manuel Urrutia" <urrutia...@ucla.edu> wrote in message news:<3C2A1888...@ucla.edu>...
> Chris Schefler wrote:
> (A bunch of mea culpas and other fluff)
>
> Look, I hope that you learned some important lessons:
>
> 1) Don't ever post drunk. You'll leave to regret it as the Web has a
> very long memory.
ALways post drunk, especially if you are a wealthy lush hyped up on
manhattens or gin and tonics. Because alcohol is a veritable truth
serum. Real emotions can be really felt and heard.
>
> 2) Don't present yourself as a target for that small minority that prays
> on the foolish, neither in your hometown or anyone else's.
Thats also is true for usenet. Chris Schefler, your as big as a
target in Tijuana as your are in this newsgroup. You might as well be
wearing a big bullseye on your computer.
>
> 3) Travel lightly and don't assume that because you are an Amuuurrrican
> you will be free from harm.
travel lightly if you only expect gale force winds or you intend to
rent. You can't travel lightly if you are an avid windsurfer-but I
guess a boombox instead of the bose is what you mean, right?
>
> 4) If having a lap-dance is risky in the US, what can you expect in TJ's
> zona roja?
Do you actually mean "risque"?
I am not rich but I like to travel and have traveled a lot, and I have
been suckered in a foreign country but I certainly can't condemn a
whole nation for an isolated event that happened to me becuase I was
niave. Think of the German tourists who are randomly victimized
inFlorida a few summers ago. Y'all should stay out of Florida if you
look anywhere close to European.
Mike F
interfered with in one manner or another by state officials, sometimes
including the police, on every occasion. And by "there" I mean CALIFORNIA!
To boot, I was INNOCENT, I SWEAR. Given that, it's no wonder I don't do
Mexico any more often than I have.
What's your secret?
Mike \m/
"Scott" <ma...@halcyon.com> wrote
Mike F
scroll box. When it's under an inch long, I know it's time to scroll
automatically and just let my eyes catch whatever they can by the time the
scroll box hits the bottom of the scroll bar. Chances are the content will
repeat often enough so that I miss nothing even if my scroll speed is set on
SMOKIN'.
Mike \m/
"Benjamin Kaufman" <robome...@pobox.com> wrote
Mike F
this forum out of the blue. Is there any doubt your behavior then influenced
this dialogue?
If it doesn't matter how much money you have, and is none of our business
... why did you tell us last summer approximately how much money you sold
your business for? Let's see .. I think we concluded it was $100.00 ...
that's seven figures, isn't it? The first digit is open to correction, but
in that context it's not especially critical, is it?
Mike \m/
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote
> I fail to see exactly what I did that was so
> egregiously offensive and brought on the first round of
> hostile, rude, and insulting responses.
...
> I suppose that
> type of pack behavior makes you feel that you must be right
> because you outnumber me, and it empowers all of you to
> start hurling insults for no logical reason
...
> You really seem to be struggling to come up with any
> reasonable excuse for your insults to me.
...
> I don't expect to find the answer to the
> riddle of why all you miserable little punks attacked me
...
> I think I know why you all have insulted me, derided me, but can't
> seem to come up with any justification that holds up to logic
> You guys have NO idea how much money I have or don't
bsinclair
People respect wealth. They do not respect conspicuous over-consumption or
rampant materialism. Money and toys are tools, not ends in themselves. You
own a van you're afraid to take where you want to sail. Bad choice. Buy a
different van, or grin and bare it when it gets ripped. Either one's better
than hiding at home.
bs
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8v_V7.16752$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Would you care to, are you even able to, explain to me just what I said
> that has made you lash back at me so rudely, and insult me?
>
> I also request you read my post again more comfortably. I never said I
> was looking for drugs, and I am not. I did admit that years ago I got a
> lap dance. That is not why I want to go to Baja now. But yes I did get
> one and yes it was fun, and legal, and I tipped her generously. That may
> not be something you are interested in or free to try, but don't deride me
> for
> it. I was perfectly within the law and my rights to get a lap dance. You
> must
> be pretty uptight and puritanical if that makes your panties bunch up into
a
> wad!
>
> I'm sorry also that my "attitude" got your panties in a bunch. I admit I
> was very
> disappointed and frustrated when I finally concluded that it would not be
> wise
> to take my van to Baja, all things considered. If you have contrary
> experiences
> or wisdom to share, please do. But don't attack me. Just because I
believe
> Mexico is not up to par and suggest others join me in boycotting them as a
> proven effective strategy to achieve the change I'd like (if only enought
> people
> agree and collaborate), I don't see how from that you conclude I have bad
> attitude.
>
> I was careful to repeatedly emphasize my affection, admiration, and
respect
> for the Mexican people, my love of their country and my desire to return
> there for the 7th or 8th time with my van to explore the highly regarded
> windsurfing and kiteboarding sites and consistent winter winds I have
> read so much about.
>
> I don't have a problem. I am disappointed and frustrated and the
> comparatively
> uncivilized and risky state of Mexican society, and yearn for the day when
> the
> country becomes modern and safe. As I said I have travelled their
> frequently
> and would again without hesitation. It is my van, something I value very
> much
> (EXCUSE ME), that I fear would be at great risk of being burglarized or
> stolen.
> I've decided the risk is more than I'm willing to accept. I'm
disappointed
> and
> angry that a lack of civil society or more precisely a state of basic
> respect and
> non-violence, common-courtesy and humanistic empathhy, or lacking that a
> modern uncorrupted police force and criminal justice system to uphold
civil
> society and order, has persuaded me, personally, to abandon my plan
> and wish to drive my Van to the south of Baja. Is that a bad attitude?
> So be it.
>
> But from where I'm looking it seems it's you that has a bad attitude,
> it seems you have attacked and insulted me, instead of rebutted my
> opinions and offering your own alternative, and somehow decided that
> I am a drug user, even though I implicitly stated I am not. Something
> I have said has made you angry and you have responded with an
> immature, sarcastic, hateful, insulting attack on me, not my opinions.
>
> Do you envy me for having an expensive luxury windsurfing van and
> the freedom to windsurf the world full-time? If so, that is pathetic,
> but certainly not unusual. About one in 10 people who learn of
> my financial independence and full-time pursuit of travel and various
> sports shake my hand, congratulate me, and say "good for you!!!
>
> But most people react like you, with jealousy and derision.
> If it is not my fortunate situation that irritates you, what is it?
> Do you blame me for being upset when my van has a window
> smashed and I lose an expensive laptop computer full of
> personal and private data, and my whole suitcase? Do
> you blame me for concluding based on that experience
> and the advice of my friend that taking my van to Mexico
> would not be too wise?
>
> Do you resnet me for griping that I have to go to Hawaii
> or Austrailia instead of Baja when most people of the
> world have much more difficult and serious things to
> struggle for and against and to feel bad about. If that
> is what provoked you, let me assure you that I feel
> very lucky, I count my blessings every day, I use
> my means to help others through charities and organizations
> I believe in, and I am fully aware of the pettiness of
> my complaint compared to so many harsher realities of
> the world.
>
> Still, this newsgroup is for discussing all things related to
> windsurfing. I don't believe I did or said anything at all
> wrong, inflammatory, or insulting. I think I have a right
> to post my complaint and call for a boycott, even though
> it is a petty concern in the grand scheme of thing.
>
> You, however, have no right to attack and insult me.
> You have every right to disagree with me and challenge
> my opinions and offer your own alternative opinions.
> But your mean, insulting attack is immature, uncalled for,
> and unjustified. I am embarassed for you, especially
> if I am correct in my assumption that your childish
> behavior notwithstanding, you are older than 10
> years old. Act your age. Allow people to air their
> opinions and learn how to respectfully disagree and
> debate. There is no call for your rude, mean,
> derisive, isulting attack.
>
> I don't know you and you don't know me so I am
> bewildered as to how I could say anything to make
> you react so disrespectfully. You should attack my ideas,
> not me.
>
> If your anger stems from envy at my affluence and extensive
> freedom to travel and windsurf, that is very common, but it's
> your problem, not mine. I do not boast about it, I don't
> feel superiour to anybody else because of my bank balance,
> I earned my money and my early retirement completely through
> my own efforts. EXCUSE ME for being successful.
>
> If none of my hypotheses about just what makes you deride
> me so are correct, perhaps you would care to explain.
>
> Your behavior is in my opinion uncalled for, petty, rude,
> mean-spirited. If I said something that makes me deserve to
> be insulted by you, you should at least have the common
> sense and common courtesy to explain just what that is.
>
> What makes you think I have a problem? Of course I am
> disappointed that I felt compelled and persuaded that my Baja
> trip with my van was too risky and had to call it off., Sure, I
> was disappointed and resented the risks resulting from Mexican
> lawlessness and police corruption spoiled my plans. It's not that
> big of a deal. Most people in this world have to worry about eating
> each day. But EXCUSE ME for being disappointed, registering
> my protest, and suggesting a strategy to improve the conditions
> in Mexico that limit my travels and modes of travel there.
>
> I actualy have a great attitude, but not towards the memory
> of having my van window smashed, my computer and suitcase
> stolen. Yes trouble can be found anywhere but you're rude
> and off base to imply that it is I who is finding trouble, especially
> without backing up that insulting accusation. Sure, trouble can
> be found anywhere, and trouble can find you anwyere, but the
> point I was trying to make is that from my own experiences and
> on the advice of an attorney friend with extensive experience of
> travel in Mexico, trouble is too likely to find me there. My cancellation
> of my trip is a perfect example of how I am not looking for trouble,
> but very interested in avoiding it.
>
> You have every right to attack my ideas and opinions and offer alternative
> ones, but your insults are uncalled for, immature, lacking in an
explanation
> of why you are treating me so contemptuously, and totally nonsensical,.
>
> yes, I asked about N. Dakota
> "my problem" is that Baja is in my opinion and in the opinion of a friend
I
> trust too risky,
> at least for my prized van.
> I did admit to getting a lap dance but that is legal and my prerogative,
but
> I was careful
> to explain that I had no interest in finding drugs and do not seek
them.
> Your claim
> that I in anyway implied that my trips involve drugs is totally based
on
> nothing but malice.
> My choices "up here", by which I assume you mean the US, are limited now
> because the
> wind season is over. A few places I know of that have wind now are
> Baja, the
> Caribbean, and Maui. Obviously it is wind I am seeking, not trouble,
not
> drugs, and
> not lap dances (ok sure, I wouldn't object to a lap dance if the
> opportunity presented itself).
> You accuse me of having an attitude that would cause trouble anywhere,
> another insult.
> In case you forgot to read my post my whole purpose of canceling my
plans
> to travel to
> Baja is to AVOID trouble. If I was looking for trouble I would be eager
> to go to Baja.
> Do you grasp that logic?
>
> I hope you will take the time to explain exactly what I said that provoked
> such an
> insulting and derisive response. But I get the feeling you're not the
type
> of person
> who is willing or able to think things through.
>
> I have been all over Baja and I shun the Gringo tourist traps and immerse
> myself
> in the hardcore local Mexican culture. As I emphasized repeatedly in my
> post
> I have much affection, respect, and admiration for the Mexican people and
> their
> culture But I and many of my friends have enough experience of Baja to
know
> where the risks are. EXCUSE ME for not wanting to take an expensive
vehicle
> down their. From what I know I think it is the right decision. I that is
a
> bad attitude
> then why don't you take a new car down to Baja, leave it parked unattended
> on
> the street in TJ or Ensenada with a laptop and a suitcase inside for a
> couple of hours,
> and see if you "good attitude" will protect it from theft. That is what
you
> seem to be
> implying.
>
> Actually little or nothing of your angry insulting response to my post
makes
> any sense
> to me. I doubt it does to you either. I don't know exactly what I said
> that provoked
> your insulting response, but I do know I said nothing to deserve it. You
> are out
> of line and your behavior is very immature. Attack and disagree with my
> opinions,
> and offer your alternative ones. But I hope you will learn that mature
> adults sharing
> opinions are able to disagree without insulting each other.
>
> I'm not saying anger or derision or insults are never justified, but in
this
> case they
> are. Who the hell pissed in your cheerios this morning anyway?
>
> rkuntz <rku...@ndak.net> wrote in message
news:3C277B88...@ndak.net...
> > And then this guy asks about North Dakota. I don't know what his problem
> is but
> > his trips seem to be involve of lap dancing, drugs and up here his
choices
> would
> > be fairly limited. I'm pretty sure however that with his attitude he
could
> find
> > trouble anywhere.
> > Ray
> >
> > Technobarbarian wrote:
> >
> > > "Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> goes on and on and on and on in
> message
> > > news:uIEV7.14214$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > I try not to respond to trolls and I usually remove all their
silly
> > > cross posting, but I'll make an exception in this case:
> > >
> > > > I know that most Mexcians are good people. But like you said don't
go
> > > down
> > > > there looking like a rich American. Unfortunately, I am. I have a
> very
> > > > luxurious
> > > > 4x4 Ford Van with every option and ridiculously high end sound
> system,
> > > > navigation
> > > > system, backup camera, etc. I was planning on spending January or
> maybe
> > > > longer
> > > > there but I talked to a friend who is an attorney in San Francisco
and
> an
> > > > old college
> > > > buddy who has spent quite a bit of time in Baja and also has lots of
> > > friends
> > > > who have
> > > > and he invoked the fears and anxieties I was trying to deny. If I
go
> down
> > > > there with my
> > > > luxury windsurfing Van with all the acccoutrements I will attract
alot
> of
> > > > attention and will
needed
> to
Mike
could you rip ME a new one? please please?
and tell me more about your thhspecial van. please please I'm so jealous!!
Pomponio Magnus, Gobernador Constitucional del Estado Libre y Soberano de Tejas de Santa Anna
> > How in the hell did you come up with such an innacurate tanslation.
> > Show me where I expected specila treatment.
>
> Start with the part where you state that you are affluant, then move on to
> the part about your out of the world super costly stereo system and the
> description of the wheels.
>
You know, in some parts of Monterrey he would be just laughed at as an
upstart peasant with poor taste. Some of those folks have real money.
David Eduardo
"Pomponio Magnus, Gobernador Constitucional del Estado Libre y Soberano de
Tejas de Santa Anna" <pomp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:84dc9988.0112...@posting.google.com...
In fact, they have popularized a whole new trend in style: nouveaux gauche.
Mike LaRonde
those pics are AWESOME.
Stunning clarity and contrast. I'm having a hard time believing a digital camera
took them. did you scan them? if not what kind of camera?
Mike
Ernie Gorrie
>A whole bunch of stuff about terrible things happening in Mexico.
While I'm sure your friends of friends have interesting stories, I prefer to
consider the direct comments of well-known individuals who have much
experience in Mexico. One of the best is Mexico Mike Nelson
(www.mexicomike.com) who writes:
"On the road, your chances of encountering problems from banditos are slim.
Most people never see one, and I, in my nearly a million miles of driving,
have never seen one."
Troulbe is everywhere for those who are looking for it, or not looking out
for it. I've only driven about 8-10,000 km in Mexico without incident.
I'll probably never get to Mexico Mike's level of driving, but I watch out
for possible danger in Mexico, as much as I watch out for it in Canada or
the US.
Thieves everywhere look for foreign plated vehicles. They know that the
drivers are less likely to be able to return for court dates to give
evidence. That hasn't stopped me from driving from Canada to Guerrero twice
and it won't stop me in the future.
--
Ernie Gorrie, The Tropical Dream Maker
Mike F
it. I sometimes respect the way a few people EARNED it ... with huge talent
and well-focused labor.
But why is an expensive toy "conspicuous over-consumption" or "rampant
materialism"? Anyone who has honestly earned lots of money has every right
to buy all the toys he wants, just as the average guy has the right to his
fine hunting rifle or a new car once he has taken care of his family. The
fact that Chris happens to be able to afford a ritzy van -- or a
skyscraper -- doesn't make him an over-consumer IMO. It'd be nice if he gave
a big chunk to charity -- or me -- but there's no reason he should just hide
it for his heirs.
Maybe he's right; maybe too many of us ARE envious of his money. But look at
how much many of us have spent on windsurfing; vans, expensive vacations,
new boards and sails every year or two, changing or uprooting or downright
abandoning careers, etc. As you said, money is a tool; if Chris wants to
spend some of his on a shiny van with a huge stereo system and GPS, who's to
say that's a more valid purchase than the next guy's bigger-than-necessary
home or newer-than-necessary car or a school-teacher's 5-year-old basic
Chevy? Why, there are actually people who live in areas where homes cost 3-4
TIMES what they cost where I live; is that over-consumption?
I'm afraid to park even my 14-year-old van many places I can think of, and
that's just way inside the "States"; how old and crappy does it have to get
before I have a right to expect it to remain intact until I get out of a
movie or restaurant? (Of course, I wouldn't park it outside a border town
bar even if it had spent 30 years in the Florida Keys.)
I still think Chris's basic message is valid, his basic ideal a valid one,
his method -- trying to apply the only leverage we have to our neighboring
country -- worth suggesting. If he'd express it in a paragraph or even one
page, and just once, I'd actually read the whole thing.
And could I appeal to you guys to stop leaving his 10-15-page quotes
appended to your replies? It takes too long to scroll down and delete it
each time.
Mike \m/
"bsinclair" <bsin...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
tra...@netaxs.com
Stay the hell home. You have no business venturing into the third
world and expect that your wealth and privilege will protect you.
Travel has its risks as well as its rewards. You, however are an
archetypal "ugly american" who deserves the worst.
Traveling in Easter Island, I met a German traveler who spoke in
almost glowing terms about how he was held up at gunpoint in the
hallway leading to his room in an upscale hotel in Buenos Aires. His
attitude was that if less than half of what you planned gets fouled
up, then the trip was not worth it.
He may have been overstating his case, but I think that the point is
that when you venture abroad you no longer have the protections of
home. You seem to expect the US Marines to be airlifted in if someone
overcharges you for a taco. Either grow up or stay the hell home.
Mike F
Both make almost equal sense to me. The primary difference it that it could
just as easily been Des Moines, Iowa as Buenos Aires, so boycotting Buenos
Aires isn't likely to help.
Mike \m/
<tra...@netaxs.com> wrote
> I met a German traveler who spoke in
> almost glowing terms about how he was held up at gunpoint in the
> hallway leading to his room in an upscale hotel in Buenos Aires. His
> attitude was that if less than half of what you planned gets fouled
> up, then the trip was ... worth it.
bsinclair
> materialism"?
Anything else is window dressing. If you tux out your van so much you are
afraid to use it, it no longer is a windsurfing van, only a status symbol.
That is conspicuous over-consumption. If you care more about your
windsurfing van than windsurfing, that is rampant materialism.
Chris can buy all the ostentatious toys his heart desires, fine by me as
long as he uses them. If he's affluent, as he claims in his original post,
he can just buy new ones when he gets ripped. Yes he should be able to park
any vehicle anywhere. And everyone in the US, let alone the third world,
should have a roof over their heads and food on their plates. How's the
sailing in Fantasyland?
> And could I appeal to you guys to stop leaving his 10-15-page quotes
> appended to your replies? It takes too long to scroll down and delete it
> each time.
I try not to double quote, but there's a lot of "I never said that" in this
thread.
bs
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:29AW7.35512$rM5....@news.webusenet.com...
Mike F
options -- whether it's trucks, WS gear, cars, shoes, pencils, popsicles, or
cinnamon rolls -- are functionally often worth the extra cost. I agree
Chris's mistakes included naiveté, parking in a rough 'hood, and expecting
the 'hood to contain nothing but honest people --especially in a country
where many of the political leaders and police set a criminal example -- but
disagree that he shouldn't aspire to the right to actually drive a nice
truck ... waxed and rust-free, even, and with any stereo system he desires.
The next time some crime or local attitude makes me afraid, or even just
very careful, to windsurf somewhere, as it has at Clatskanie, WA, this forum
will hear about it loud and clear unless I believe it was a truly isolated
incident with no bearing on WS travel. For example, I strongly advise anyone
sailing at Jones Beach outside Clatskanie, WA/USA be very careful, do so
only with a large number of other sailors, park in a spot from which you can
drive straight onto the main road, carry a significant weapon and a cell
phone, NEVER camp there with fewer than several other WINDSURFING vehicles,
and never sleep in a tent accessible to 4X4s. That may not require a
boycott, but it does warrant extensive personal safety measures. If your
30-year-old rustbucket has any indication it is associated with windsurfing,
you are fair game for life-threatening terrorism. That is not any
exaggeration at all unless something has dramatically improved since I
stopped going there. Too bad; it was an idyllic windsurfing spot for several
reasons.
Would Chris have gotten a better reception if he had presented his tale
much, much, MUCH more briefly and much less arrogantly? We may never know
unless he sobers up. Maybe he should move to New Mexico, where citizens are
allowed to carry guns and have the expressed right to shoot felons and where
reaching into a motor vehicle -- even an open convertible -- is a felony ...
and where drunk driving is okeydokey.
Sailing in my local Fantasyland just went belly up, probably until spring
for me, when the air and river temps plummeted a week ago.
Mike \m/
"bsinclair" <bsin...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> > But why is an expensive toy "conspicuous over-consumption" or "rampant
> > materialism"?
> The purpose of a windsurfing van is to get you and your stuff to the
beach.
> Anything else is window dressing. If you tux out your van so much you are
> afraid to use it, it no longer is a windsurfing van, only a status symbol.
> That is conspicuous over-consumption. If you care more about your
> windsurfing van than windsurfing, that is rampant materialism.
> ...
Chris Schefler
say so, I believe you. I cannot deny that I do from time to time
(especially
this time of year with all the parties and what not) tip a few. And
anybody
with any experience drinking knows that if you have one to many you risk
being extremely open and blunt about your opinions and are at greater risk
of using insufficent caution about your choice of words which may result
in diminished accuracy in translation your opinion into words, or increased
risk of being ambiguous or iinsufficiently cautious about political
correctness
and other potential risks of causing unintended offense by virtue failing
to
spend sufficient, if any, time scrutinizing and analyzing your words to
reduce
the possibility of inadvertantly writing something that could be
misconstrued
or cause uintended offense or controversy.
I don't remember the incident you refer to where I may have previously
been guilty of PUI (postiing under the influence).
I cannot deny that I do at times indulge in imbibation. I must now wonder
if that increases my risk of unintentionally causing offense due to impaired
accuracy of articulation.
But in my defense I can say this. My bartenders and other stafff at the
nightclubs I do visit when I elect to imbibe love me. For no other reason
that I take extra care to make sure that they receive at least an adequate
tip,
more often a unusually generous tip, and at times, like now in the holidays
I tip so generously that some of my bartendenders are taken aback and
feel compelled to inform me that my tip is unnecessarily excessive (but as
you might imagine, it is not all that diifcult to persuade them to take the
tip).
I also tip doormant abnd boouncers and the like reasonbably
generously, to the extent that they are unconfortabe and feel oblivation
to cut me some slack
bUT MYY BIEGGEST SUCCESS CMA
Mike F <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:PdcW7.18809$rM5....@news.webusenet.com...
> I don't think you need to worry about that ... people reading all the way
> through it, that is. The last time you went on like that, a year ago or
so,
> you also admitted to being drunk. Those of us who remember that spotted
the
> symptoms right away and went into RAPID SCAN mode ... or straight to
DELETE
> ... right away.
I don't remember what you're referring to but I can assure you while I may
ramble and
make more typos after a few drinks (and please I said I was a LITTLE drunk,
not
"drunk") I am also less sensitive and more jovial and generous after
drinking so though
I don't suffer fools gladly and absolutely will take offense and respond
accordingly
when I am attacked and insulted, alcohol is not the issue. I don't care if
I've had
acouple beers or am stone sober if somebody accuses me of being "selfish"
for
complaining about being burglarized and about the state of crime and
corruption
in Mexico making the type of trip I wanted to make unreasonably risky, you
better
believe I'm going to tear them a new one.
One of the reasons I spend less and less time in Usenet with each passing
year
is because of the rude idiots who pass insults they would never do in
person.
I was on Usenet back in '93 when very, very few people had ever heard the
word "Internet". It was very different back then. People were friendly and
mature and you could state reasonable opinions without having a bunch of
idiots
start insulting you.
Call me arrogant but I do miss those days before the Internet became a
household
name and Usenet was not infested with idiots, cowards, and fools who are so
intolerant of a opinion they disagree with and so quick to jump to false
conclusions
based on their own petty and narrow ways of thinking.
You go to a party or a bar and discuss the same opinions and can have
friendly
civilized debate with people who disagree without being insulted or derided.
For
some reason on Usenet people are much less inhibited about insulting people
and
being rude. That reason is cowardice. I do not fight but if anybody who
has insulted
me here, especially the punk who thought he was cool and tough to warn me to
"never jibe in front of him", lives near Santa Cruz or sails in the Gorge
where I will
be all this summer thinks they are man enough to meet me in person and say
the
same things to me, I would love that opportunity. As I said, not to fight,
but to
prove my point that these cowards would never DARE to say such things to my
face. That's why I invite them to meet me in person if they do think they
are man
enough to say the same things in person that they do when hiding behind
their
screen....I know they'd never take me up on the offer. Their like people
whose
personality changes when they get behind the wheel of a car, from Dr. Jekkyl
to Mr. Hyde. They get behind a keyboard and act like fools and say things
they'd
never dare say in person.
I can't believe this thread keeps going on. I assure you I haven't read
even half
the posts in here.
I do suggest that you all get a life and find something better to read and
write
about. I don't intend to continue any more in this thread but it has been
facscinating
and amusing to see such extremes of immature, cowardly, rude behavior an
remarkable lack of reasoning abilities and intelligence.
Yeah, I miss the good ol' days of Usenet before all the cowards and white
trash
moved in and ruined the neighborhood.
> It has always amazed me how easily some people are offended ... just as
they
> are sometimes surprised how offended I can get from THEIR offhand
> As for recanting your call for a boycott .... heck, what other means does
> any individual HAVE to try to change something like this? If I thought a
> boycott ... or toilet paper in the trees ... or letting the air out of
their
> tires ... would improve the situation at Clatskanie/Jones Beach, I'd do it
> immediately. But since they have been informed of the problems there many
> times, yet deny it or will not and/or can not solve it, and have seen a
> downturn in tourism as a result, any economic impact is self-inflicted.
The
> place isn't THAT great a sailing spot that I'm going to escalate the
problem
> to the state. But it IS a loss, considering its many good points. I'll get
> there again, if for no other reason than that I have a bigger gun now. ;-)
Of course. I intended neither to be taje nesjreseveky.d
Mike F
Mike \m/
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h3QW7.1933$yi.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
RadE
--
RadE
Life's a beach
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uIEV7.14214$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > Rent your vehicle and your gear.
> > > Better yet, join me in boycotting Mexico until they >become a
civilized
> > country where one
> > > can travel and bring valuable without fear of being >vicitiimized,
> robbed,
> > extorted, etc.
> >
> > Boy, I can hear all the Baja sailors cheering, more beachfront property
> > available for them, and fewer people on the water.
> >
> > I have so many friends who travel in Baja, and we have also gone a
number
> of
> > times without incident. But you do have to have a different mind set.
> Don't
> > go down there looking like the rich American, or acting like the ugly
> > American. You are just setting yourself up as a target.
> >
> > Mexico is a wonderful place to visit, and the Mexicans are really warm
> > lovely people. And the sailing is great. Looks like there will be wind
> > later this week in San Felipe, I think I'll go pack the van.
>
> I know that most Mexcians are good people. But like you said don't go
down
> there looking like a rich American. Unfortunately, I am. I have a very
> luxurious
> 4x4 Ford Van with every option and ridiculously high end sound system,
> navigation
> system, backup camera, etc. I was planning on spending January or maybe
> longer
> there but I talked to a friend who is an attorney in San Francisco and an
> old college
> buddy who has spent quite a bit of time in Baja and also has lots of
friends
> who have
> and he invoked the fears and anxieties I was trying to deny. If I go down
> there with my
> luxury windsurfing Van with all the acccoutrements I will attract alot of
> attention and will
> be a target.
>
> I am not saying that Mexicans in general are bad. I am not a racist. I
do
> not believe there is
> any signifiicant difference between the various ethnicities of the human
> population. But there
> are significant variations in culture and civility among the various
regions
> and nations off the
> Earth. To take an extreme example it would be foolhardy to travel at this
> time to Afghanistan.
> By that I do not mean I believe the Afghan people are by virture of their
> ethnicity evil or in any
> other way fundamentally different from any other human being. What I do
> mean is that their
> current cultural and societal reality, not their ethnicity, presents
> unacceptable dangers.
>
> Ditto for Mexico. Several years ago I planned a road trip to explore the
> Baja Penninsula.
> I only got as far as Tiajuanna. I was driving a brand new VW Camper Van.
I
> stopped in
> TJ for lunch and a couple cervesas, and, if I must be perfectly honest, a
> couple of lap dances.
> I made the foolish mistake of parking my van on the street in downtown TJ.
> I was gone for
> maybe 2-3 hours but when I returned to my van I found that in spite of my
> state of the art
> alarm system somebody had smashed a window, and stolen my suitcase, laptop
> computer, and
> portable TV. I was so upset that I aborted my Baja trip and returned
> immediately to the US.
>
> I have friends who have told me even worse horror stories. If you go down
> with a low profile
> and avoid all of the vices such as bars, strippers, drugs, etc., and stick
> strictly to the straight and
> narrow, don't bring, drive, or carry anything valuable or luxurious, and
do
> not make any attempt
> of any kind to interact or experience the indigenous culture but stick to
> your luxury hotel and
> windsurfing resort, you can safely enjoy Mexico.
>
> But if you prefer to adventure into the authentic indigenous culture, and
> enjoy partying and
> mingling in the local culture, that too is an acceptable risk if you in no
> way display any sign
> of affluence.
>
> If you do for any reason cross the police department, the usual way out is
> to bribe them.
> For example a few years ago I was in Puerto Vallarta for 10 days and I
> rented a scooter
> to buzz around and explore the city and country side. Nobody told me I
had
> to wear a
> helmet, as I recall, althogh I think one was made available to me. On the
> third day or so
> I was riding the coastal road south of town and was pulled over by a
mexican
> policeman.
> He told me I was in violation of the law for riding without a helment. He
> wrote up a citation
> and confiscated my California drivers license. He told me I would need to
> go to some municipal
> office and pay a fine to resolve the infraction and recover my drivers
> license. I was cooperative
> and listened carefully to his insturctions on the procedures I needed to
> follow to resolve the
> infraction. I seemed a little taken aback that I was actually carefully
> noting his instructions and
> intending to fully cooperate with the proper procedures to pay my debt.
> When he realized I
> actually intended to follow his instructions to recover my license and pay
> my fine at city hall,
> he abandoned the charade and cut to the chase. He told me to give him 20
> pesos (or something,
> I can't remember the exact amount). I happily gave him 20 pesos and he
> returned my license
> and allowed me to continue on my way sans helmet.
>
> Later I related the incident to the vendor who rented me the scooter and
he
> became indignant.
> He retorted "If that happens again, don't pay any more than 10 pesos!"
>
> The point being that law enforcement in Mexico is a farce. In a way it is
> very convenient that
> you don't have to go to court or anything.. Rather, you pay the necessary
> bribe to the police
> officer that is required to be allowed to continue upon your way.
>
> That is fine and dandy but that is not a horror story. I have had friends
> who have told me of
> much worse abuses by Mexican law enforcement.
>
> A friend of mine just last night, an attorney in San Francisco, told me on
> the phone of a friend
> who went to a strip bar in Baja. He was getting lap dances from a
beautiful
> young chica. She
> invited him to a motel room for a more private and intimate experience.
In
> his excited and aroused
> state of mind he accepted the invitation and went to a motel room with
her.
> Once in the room a
> group of young Mexicans burst in impersonating Mexica police. They
> confiscated his wallet
> and attempted to coerce him into proiding him with the PIN for his ATM
card.
> As the story
> was told to me, he pretended to be insane as a defense. Nobody knows what
> happened after
> that but he managed to walk across the border at some point back into the
> US. He had no
> memory of how he escaped his captors or of crossing the border. He
suffered
> from amnesia
> an post traumatic stress syndrome. Within a short period of time he
dropped
> out of law school.
> My friend has not heard from him sense.
>
> I myself had planned to spend January in Baja windsurfing and Kiteboarding
> and had not interest
> or intention of pursuing strippers, drugs, or other seedier aspects of the
> indiginous culture. But my
> attorney friend whos friend was victimized and severely traumatized
warned
> me that travelling in
> Baja with an expensive custom 4x4 brand new windsurfing van would attract
> alot of attention and
> therefore risk..
>
> He told me that I should expect road blocks of young armed banditos who
> wouldd demand who
> knows what for my passage.
>
> I emphasize that this is an attorney in whom I have the utmost respect and
> trust and who himself
> has travelled frequently to Baja and has had many friends who have done so
> as well. His point
> was don't take an expensive vehicle or anything else expensive, keep a low
> profile, stick to the
> straight and narrow, and in general masquerade as a poor traveler with
> minimal means and to
> drive or carry nothing of value and minimal cash.
>
> Baja can be safe if you stick to the high end resorts and do not venture
> into indiginous culture.
> Do not appear affluent or bring anything of value. Fly, don't drive. Do
> not bring your own gear.
> Do not walk around town at night, especially if you're not sure where
you're
> going.
>
> I have very regrettably aborted my plans to drive my brand new luxurious
> windsurfing van
> down to the southern tip of Baja based on my own past sketchy experiences
in
> Baja and
> the cautions of my attorney friend who himself has had substantial
> experience in Mexico and
> also has many friends who have travelled extensively in Mexico, at least
in
> one case with
> tragic results.
>
> Mexico is an anarchic, lawless, fitlthy, dirty shithole. Everytime I go
> there I swear I'll never
> return. I emphasize and reiterate that I am not criticize the average
> Mexican. On the contrary
> I find the typical Mexican to be very warm, friendly, and trustworthy.
But
> there is an inadequate
> law ennforcement infrastructure, and too much poverty, which makes travel
in
> Mexico far
> different than say, travelling to Canada or Western Europe. There are
> serious risks. The trick
> is not to appear affluent, confine yourself to upscale resorts, fly, don't
> drive, and bring nothing of
> value. Stick to rich gringo sactuaries. Venture beyond the high class
> gringo resorts at your own
> risk.
>
> I emphasize that the Mexcian people themselves are honorable and warm
> people. But as in
> any society there are rouge elements and Mexico lacks an uncorrupted
> criminal justice and law
> enforcement infrastructure necessary to protect us from the rogue bandits,
> and its poverty creates
> a level of desparation that makes any prosperous tourist an object of
envy
> and a target.
>
> The Caribbean offers a more safe, secure and civilized Northern
Hemisphere
> winter windsurfing
> destination with far fewer risks than Mexico. Baja Mexico is a
paradisical
> winter windsurfing
> destination, affordable, exotic, with luxurious conditions. The risks are
> acceptable if you keep
> a low profile, fly to your destination and do not drive, unless you drive
a
> low-end, used rental
> vehicle, and at all times pose as a poor tourist on a shoestring budget,
> bring nothing of exceptional
> value and carry not too much cash but enough to bribe your way out of any
> confrontation with the
> corrupt police.
>
> I don't mean to be chicken little or an alarmist. A fly-in package with
> Vela Windsurf is perfectly
> safe. But in my case, my plans to drive the length of the Baja Peninnsula
> in my luxury custom windsurfing
> van equipped with a ridiculously expensive sound and navigation system, my
> nervousness based on my
> own experience of the risks involved, and my discussion of my plans with
my
> attorney friend with
> his wealth of experience in Mexican travel, as forced me to abort my plan.
> And that makes me mad.
> It is my loss, and a loss to the innocent and ethical Mexcians who I would
> have spent my money with.
>
> Maybe I will still fly down there but if I must get on a plane I will
> probably just go to the Carribbean
> or Austrailia both of which are more civilized and in order to boycott a
> country that limits my freedom
> to travel in because of it's uncivilized and relatively lawless, dangerous
> environment. That is their loss.
> When they elect an ethical, honorable government and correct their corrupt
> and unethical criminal
> justice and law enforcement institutions, they will enjoy great benefits
of
> increased tourism to their
> wonderful country, and the attendent economic largesse. Every Mexcian
will
> benefit from an
> advance of their country into the 21st century and civilized, just
society.
>
> As long as they want to run their country like the mafia and behave like
> animals and maintain
> a state of dangerous anarchy, I call for a boycott of tourism. I have
> been to Mexico at least
> 6 times or more but I am fed up with their backwards, barbaric, anarchic
> society an their dirty,
> chaotic, shithole cities. I yearn for the day when they clean up their
act
> and I can feel safe and
> secure in driving my luxury van throughout Baja, and can contribute to
> their economy by vacationing
> there, and can trust that as long as I behave civily and lawfully I will
not
> face unreasonable risks
> of being targeted by banits or corrupt policement who see my affluence as
> an opportunity to
> abuse their power and parasitically suck me dry. Let alone the horror
> stories I have heard of
> people being kidnapped, coerced into relinquishing their ATM card and PIN,
> and showing up
> days later in the US with amnesia and post traumatic stress disorder.
>
> Mexico: please join us in the 21st century so that I can participate in
> your wonderful water sports
> opportunities and contribute to your economy. But as long as you have
> armed 16 year olds manning
> road blocks along the Baja Penninsula, who have no disincentive and every
> incentive to victimize
> and exploit me, I will take my tourist budget elsewhere. It is your loss.
>
> Mexico. You are good people. There is much I admire and respect about
you.
> But your government
> and criminal justice system is corrupt, backwards, and out of control.
This
> hurts all of you and all of
> us who would like to travel more freely and comfortably in your country,
and
> contribute to your economy.
> I am outraged and furious that the relatively anarchic nature of your
> society denies me the opportunity
> to travel to your beautiful country, interact with your warm and friendly
> populace, and contribute to
> your economy. But I and enough of my friends have too many horror stories
> to tell about travelling
> in your country. I am fed up. I would love to spend a lot of time and
> money windsurfing and kiteboarding
> in Baja this winter but your government and corrupt criminal justice and
law
> enforcement institutions,
> which I have borne the brunt of both first hand as well as from
second-hand
> anecdotes, leaves me with
> no choice but to boycott your third world, chaotic, dangerous shithole.
>
> I will probably visit your country again someday in any case, but with a
> very low profile, minimal funds
> and other valuables, and for a very brief time in only the few relatively
> secure upscale destinations.
>
> I have invested a significant amount of money in my dream windsurfing van
> and after careful consideration
> and discussion with friends who have had experience in your country, I
> regrettably have concluded that it
> would be foolhardy to bring such a modern, prized possesion into your land
> of anarchy, poverty, and
> lawlessness. Instead I am forced to abandon, indeed boycott your country,
> my preferred destination
> in many other respects, in favor of the carribbean, Hawaii, or elsewhere.
> But never again, as I have
> told myself so many times before, will I set foot in your lawless den of
> criminal chaos.
>
> Get your shit together Mexico! We want to come and spend money and visit
> and enjoy all the wonderful
> things you have to offer, but first you have to make the effort and do the
> work to transform your country
> into a safe, civilized, modern, civil society. Until then you are forcing
> us, not just Americans but the
> world at large, to take our considerable tourism spending to other, safer,
> more civilized destinations.
> >
> > Lois
> >
>
>
Alan White
Alan
--
Windsurfing Club: http://www.ibscc.org
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:SztW7.30979$rM5....@news.webusenet.com...
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
cowardly, rude,
illogical, stupid, butt on down to S.A and do some WINDSURFING. I shall stop
reading
your comments as you advise below. See you on the water sometime, (suuuuuurrrre
I will).
(8^})
-Craig
Chris Schefler wrote:
> [limited value snippage]
>
> I do suggest that you all get a life and find something better to read and
> write
> about. I don't intend to continue any more in this thread but it has been
> facscinating
> and amusing to see such extremes of immature, cowardly, rude behavior an
> remarkable lack of reasoning abilities and intelligence.
[Piker troll snippage]
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
Peter B
"RadE" <Erwin_F...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c2c442d$0$33507$ba62...@news.skynet.be...
> What the fuck you need a laptop and a PC for if you go surfing???
>
>
> --
> RadE
To do what you and me are doing on this NG? Seeking entertainment between
sessions.
Believe me I'd sooner be windsurfing :-)
Pete.
Mike F
Jeez! Did somebody put Hillary in charge of our vacations?
Mike \m/
"RadE" <Erwin_F...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote
Lois Stufflebeam
even if you don't find wind!
Lois
"Mike LaRonde" <mi...@jplot.com> wrote in message
news:3C2AB531...@jplot.com...
Baja Mark
> Get your shit together Mexico! We want to come and spend money and visit
> and enjoy all the wonderful
> things you have to offer, but first you have to make the effort and do the
> work to transform your country
> into a safe, civilized, modern, civil society.
Gosh, just go to Disneyland ..... or I'm sure you could windsurf on Mission
Bay in San Diego.
It's a third world nation, are you comparing it to a nation that provides
for it's citizens like none other in the world? That's a pretty lofty
standard to hold them to. That is not going to happen in our lifetime for
sure.
Sure Mexico is a bit rough around the edges, but I sure don't want it
looking like Orange County either.
Tell me, (not that I necessarily agree) where in the US can you run a red
light pay $20 bucks and be on your way? I have never heard one case of
extortion from the military check points..... those kids are looking for
drugs and guns only. That is the least corrupt faction of the government,
they don't accept bribes.
I've lived and worked in TJ for the past 6 years......... the charm of
Mexico lies in the way that it is.
Common sense, and being aware of your surroundings is always a good idea no
matter where you are.
Mexico has a big job ahead and it always moves at a snail's pace..... stop
the greed at the top, and provide quality education for the masses! There
you have it.
In the meantime, enjoy Mexico and what it has to offer!
Mark
WellTraveledTraveler
If you looking for security & satisfaction only then stay in where you
currently you are.
And pleeeease! Do not travel ever! There is discomfort! Trust me!
Well ... you'll be close mind person then ... but do you care ?
Do you care what outside (of USA) there ?
You'll never know the 3/4 of the earth .. if you'll think same way you
think now then Stay home! Let those who looking to explore other
cultures ...and adventures travel! You stay where you are and do not
move! LOL
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Baja Mark" <baja...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<oTlX7.6078$Pi4.111...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>...
Richard
(a) Mexicans themselves are friendly, hospitable, warm, personable people,
you've nothing but good things to say about them
(b) the country itself is in a word - your word - a shithole.
so therefore THEY should change the way things work down there so YOU can go
vacation there and make use of their beaches and coastline instead of going
all the way to Australia?
Give me a break! The only place the word "shit" should be used in describing
what's going on here is to describe the post I'm replying to.
Perhaps a little bit of research would be in order before you head down to
Mexico. Baja California and Tijuana (not Tijauanna) are not necessarily the
safest of places. But then again if the US is so much better why not go park
your precious little 4x4 in the middle of a poor neighbourhood in LA,
Chicago or NYC for a while and see what happens. I'm not sure what you were
doing with a laptop a TV, etc in your car if you were there to go sailing.
But either way, plan your route a bit better next time, there are certain
highways that are notoriously dangerous, especially at night - avoid them.
If you like to run with the rich/elite crowd on your vacations check around,
see how rich Mexicans handle all their ultra-expensive toys! There are those
who have the money to flee to the US or where ever else in the world they
might desire, but they haven't, so obviously there must be some way to cope.
I spent seven weeks there this summer, only flights I took were to get into
and out of the country. I didn't set foot in any "rich gringo sactuaries."
granted my budget for the whole trip was probably along the lines of what
you'd spend in a weekend but nobody robbed or mugged me, no one pretended to
be the police to get my wallet. Heck, one girl invited me to go to a country
club for a day, another guy bought me shots of tequila at a bar one night,
in the bus terminal at Zacatecas a guy bought me breakfast one morning after
we'd taken a night bus in from Guadalajara, another girl offered me a room
in her house for a couple nights and another guy shared some weed with me.
Worst thing that happened was that the cops pulled our car over in Mexico
City after we had uh... broken a couple rule of the road, but we were on our
way in less than five minutes and the "propina" we gave the cop was a whole
lot less than what the corresponding fine would have been up here.
Richard
"Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XnEV7.14176$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Lois Stufflebeam <lasb...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:8NpV7.1797$dG.13...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> >
> > "Chris Schefler" <an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > Rent your vehicle and your gear.
> > > Better yet, join me in boycotting Mexico until they >become a
civilized
> > country where one
> > > can travel and bring valuable without fear of being >vicitiimized,
> robbed,
> > extorted, etc.
> >
> > Boy, I can hear all the Baja sailors cheering, more beachfront property
> > available for them, and fewer people on the water.
> >
> > I have so many friends who travel in Baja, and we have also gone a
number
> of
> > times without incident. But you do have to have a different mind set.
> Don't
> > go down there looking like the rich American, or acting like the ugly
> > American. You are just setting yourself up as a target.
> >
> > Mexico is a wonderful place to visit, and the Mexicans are really warm
> > lovely people. And the sailing is great. Looks like there will be wind
> > later this week in San Felipe, I think I'll go pack the van.
>
> I know that most Mexcians are good people. But like you said don't go
down
> Get your shit together Mexico! We want to come and spend money and visit
> and enjoy all the wonderful
> things you have to offer, but first you have to make the effort and do the
> work to transform your country
MorrisC
windrider
I go to Baja and stay away from the 2 border towns. Most of the people in these areas don't make much money. I drive an
older motor home "1983", but I imagine it is worth more than a most Mexicans make in a year not encluding the contents.
I would not dare to park this motor home and spend the night in the wrong part of LA. Shouldn't I use the same common
sence in Mexico.
A fool and there money is easily departed.
Mike F
expecting a bribe? How many of you would offer a U.S. cop a bribe with no
expectation of being arrested?
Mike \m/
"MorrisC" <trav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:962120d.02010...@posting.google.com...
mikel51
under your drivers license when pulled over for a traffic violation. When
one of my friends was arrested your for pot, the cops handed him a business
card of a lawyer who could fix it the problem. And one of my roomates
parents, who was connected with the machine, didn't like the fact that she
lived with us--had our apartment searched for drugs one evening when she
went to visit her sister. Of course clean cut people like my roomates and I
had nothing to worry about since they didn't go so far as to plant any drugs
in our house.
Perhaps Chicago in the 70's didn't count as part of the U.S.
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:ist_7.100722$_k4.2...@news.webusenet.com...
jfe...@ix.netcom.com
corruption in the usa, and that in mexico.
what those who love mexico (and i count myself among them) need to
remember is that it is the mexicans themselves who suffer the most
under this corruption, not north american tourists.
denying the extent of this corruption does not help mexicans
in any way that i can see. it is possible to love mexico and
mexicans, while at the same time abhoring the corruption
that seems endemic to their government.
as far as a boycott goes, i don't think it will help. i don't
support the embargo on cuba, and i didn't support the sanctions
against south africa - because i don't think they work and may
actually do harm.
jeff
The Dog
>
> When I drove a cab in Chicago,
Perhaps driving for a living is different than driving as an average
citizen... I have limited CDL experience (farm semi's in north
central plains states), but I think handing a $20 to the troopers
and inspection station agents would have been a very bad idea.
But you're right... Chicago is in Canada. ;-)
Dog
--
Brian "The Dog" Cunningham
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning
Some days you're the dog,
and some days you're the hydrant.
M Tools
rkuntz
Weed Fin
support the embargo on cuba, and i didn't support the sanctions
against south africa - because i don't think they work and may
actually do harm.>>
Boycott!, what boycott? You're not taking this dude serious are you? Just
because some trust fund brat is afraid to take his shinny new windsurfing van
to Mexico on the advice of some lawyer friend is no reason for everybody else
to boycott Mexico.
WARDOG's been going down there for years and never mentioned anything about
being robbed, extorted, etc.. Corruption, danger exists everywhere, obviously
not enough to keep WARDOG from doing his yearly pilgrimage to Mexico. I'll take
WARDOG's advice any day over someone who depends on a lawyer to plan his
windsurfing agenda.
Inarchetype
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:ist_7.100722$_k4.2...@news.webusenet.com...
>
No, but I did have an experience with an officer my last year of college
(Tempe, AZ, if you must know), who hauled me in one night on utterly trumped
up charges and outright lied on his police report (luckily for me the
trumped up charge was for an almost trivial offence). Even my lawyer
couldn't believe the law in question was being applied to such a case (never
mind that the entire scenario was fabricated), and said that the charge was
completely outside of the intent of the law in question. He advised me to
take advantage of a first-offender program that would get the charge
dismissed nonetheless simply to avoid the risk of a conviction at such a
tender point in my carreer if by some accident of fate my case was not
thrown out of court as he expected it would be.
As a credibility point, this is to date my only arrest (I'm 31).
My point:
At least in Mexico when corrupt police officers trump up complaints against
you, it is in hope of material gain and a problem easily solved.
In Tempe, when a corrupt police officer trumped up a complaint against me,
it was out of pure spite (or sheer boredom- I'll never know) and was
insoluable.
I don't have to think very long to decide which situation I would prefer.
Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that most police officers in either the
US or in Mexico are corrupt. I believe that most are earnest public
servants. Bitter experiece, however, has taught me that a few bad eggs can
be found in every dairy.
>
jfe...@ix.netcom.com
a few weeks driving around mexico without any problem - it
was a long time ago though. so, in spite of the fact that wardog
has had no trouble, and the fact that i have had no trouble,
it is undeniable that there is a lot of corruption in mexico.
it is also undeniable that the main victims of this corruption
are ordinary mexicans - and i'd like to see them get a better
lot in life.
jeff
The Dog
> WARDOG's been going down there for years and never mentioned anything about
> being robbed, extorted, etc..
Yeah... But we've seen pictures of his ugly truck. And I believe
we've even seen pictures of his ugly mug. That alone should be
enough to scare off most bandits. ;-)
(for the humor-impaired, that was e-humor.)
Though I also seem to remember seeing some really nice vehicles
in a few of his on-line photos. Could it be karma?
Weed Fin
<<Yeah... But we've seen pictures of his ugly truck. And I believe
we've even seen pictures of his ugly mug. That alone should be
enough to scare off most bandits. ;-)
(for the humor-impaired, that was e-humor.)>>
LOL... that was e-funny dog. WARDOG's been gone for quite a while, you don't
think he's being held ransom? I'll throw in a set of 1988 Plymouth Voyager
hubcaps for his release. Another attempt of e-humor. ;)
serendipity
Perhaps this is an urban legend???