Use Sony HME or HMP 8mm tapes?
Doug Bradley
(Was pleased with Camera World of Oregon, they were straight with me even if
it took a while. Ordered it March 25 and got it May 1 with 2nd day shipping,
cost $950+shipping fyi).
Anyway, now I've got two simple questions for you videographers:
1) Any preference between Metal Particle or Metal Evaporated tapes for Hi8?
How about 60- vs 120-minute (i.e. is the base thinner in the 120?)
2) I'm going to want a second battery. Preference for a 1-hour or a larger
_rated_ battery? I believe a larger battery would give a better safety margin
but still don't want to hang a Diehard off this compact little unit. How about
Sony vs. aftermarket batteries?
Thanks in advance for any replies. Post or email and I'll summarize if interest.
Mark Goldberg
ago. Hope it helps.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have completed my survey of hi-8 tape usage and alleged dropout problems.
It is important tonote that I am not personaly a user of hi-8. The
findings here are strictly a result of my original query on the net
plus any postings I have come across. I have also posed hi-8 tape related
questions to local users and dealers.
BACKGROUND
There are two tape formulations - Hi-Metal-Particle and Hi-Metal-Evaporated
(HMP and HME). HME takes full advantage of hi-8 recording and gives
better color, resolution, and signal-to-noise (S/N) than HMP. But HMP
is far less prone to dropouts and particle shedding than HME. Due to
the high recording density in hi-8, the consequences of a droput are
far more serious than any other recording format. The dropout problem
can also be aggravated when a tape is subjected to repeated viewing
or editing. HME is much more epensive than HMP.
Regarding editing, hi-8 users are split as to approach. May dub it to
another format like SVHS or 3/4 for editing. Others edit directly from
the hi-8 original onto another format (SVHS,VHS, etc.) or create an
edit master also in high, as with the EVO-9700 editor.
PREFERENCE DEPENDS ON USER
HMP seems to be more popular. Those who haven't experienced the dropout
problems are afarid to find out. Some users lack the appropriate monitor
to see a clear advantage of HME. I received several accounts of how
the "dropout problems are very real with HME." There were also a few
that reported no problems at all. One user prefers HMP for shooting
and HME to make the edit master, since the master gets less shuttling
than the original. I also deduced that HME is very temperature and
condition sensitive; temperature swings and dust increased dropouts
greatly.
ONe grad student who shoots HME in her CCD-V5000 attested to the dropout
problems. "Image is great but I do two takes of everything."
BOTTOM LINES
My dealer made the following quantitative performance diagram:
|----------------------------------------------|-------------|
VHS Hi-8/HMP Hi-8/HME
and
SVHS
He claims that Sony is aware of the dropout problem with HME and therefore
does not recommend it for repeated use or editing.
Bottom line is that if you are editing from a hi-8 original, HMP is
the way to go. If you're planning to dub to another format for editing,
then the higher quality of HME may offset the generation loss.
If dropouts were a fact of life, I would rather have them on the camera
original than on the edit master. Think about it. You can always cavor
the problem with editing. But if the master has gliches, then how do
you cover THAT on your release tapes?
If I got into hi-8 today, I would use HMP no matter what production
path was involved. I would also continue to monitor the HME situation
very closely, because both Sony and Toshiba (possible others too) are
putting a lot of development money into hi-8 and its tape formutions.
According to an article in WEdding Videography Today, Toshiba plans
to release a barium oxide formulation that overcomes the dropout problems.
So here's a rolloup of net traffic, my original query, and the followup
responses. Enjoy the read!
------------------------------------
From: el...@bugs.gs.com
Subject: Hi-8 Sony HME tape impressions
Summary: problems
Keywords: dropouts
Date: 18 Dec 91 20:21:19 GMT
Sender: dae...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Just to add my $.02, my experience with Hi-8 format has been generally very
pleasant. I use a v101 & evs-900 for regular taping. Although I like to
use the Sony HME tapes, I noticed some problems with the formulation. In my
experience, the Sony brand in particular is better than maxell & other brands
both for the MP & the ME formulations. HMP is more reliable but noticably
lower in resolution, dynamic range etc. HME has a great picture but the
problem with dropouts are very real. I used the tapes under varying conditions,
temperature, humidity and pressure and found out that HME is very sensitive
to temperature. In cold weather, the HME dropout rate is VERY high, in fact
it simply made it unusable. This of course makes its use for outdoor shooting
questionable. It works best when the temperature is at or above 24 Celcius
(if there is any difference between storage & shooting temperature, make sure
the tape is temp stabilized - it takes about half an hour or more). When the
conditions are right, I've gotten near perfect recordings with almost no
dropouts whatsoever. The same is true with edits; editing @ low temp pretty
much destroys the tape.
I would love to hear other experiences with Sony 120HME.
Reha Elci
=======================
Email: el...@bugs.gs.com
=======================
From: gold...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg)
Subject: Hi-8: How serious is the tape dropout problem?
Date: 22 Jan 92 14:07:51 GMT
Organization: David Taylor Research Center, Annapolis, MD
I am considering the use of hi-8 for stuff at work as well as home.
I have concerns about the tape dropout problem - and I expect other
engineers will confront me with their concerns. So, if you are a hi-8
user, please take a moment to answer the questions below. I have divided
the query into shooting and editing, hi-metal-P (particle) and hi-metal-E
(evaporated) tape.
What do you shoot with? __P __E Brand?_____________________
Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) ___
Do you edit your material? (y/n) ___
Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)_ ___ Which?____
What is the format of your edit master? __hi-8 __SVHS __3/4 Other______
If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __P __E Brand?
Dropout problems?
Other relevant comments (optional):
=========David Taylor Research Center (a US Navy lab) - Annapolis, MD=========
/|/| /||)|/ /~_/\| |\|)[~|)/~_ | Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
/ | |/~||\|\ \_/\/|_|/|)[_|\\_/ | gold...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======
Date: 22 Jan 1992 12:34:25 CST
From: <KA...@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu>
What do you shoot with? P Brand? Sony
Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) yes, but minor
Do you edit your material? (y/n) yes
Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n) no
What is the format of your edit master? 3/-SP
If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __P __E Brand?
Dropout problems?
Minor dropout problems . . . perhaps a handful on a 60-minute
tape
Other relevant comments (optional):
We've been using the format since last summer, producing training
videotapes for the U.S. Army. Having used 3/ as an acquition
format for many years, I am VERY happy with the way Hi8 has been
working out for us.
Mitch Kazel
Department of Journalism
University of Illinois
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 14:55:06 -0500
From: heme...@ll.mit.edu ( Roe Hemenway)
>What do you shoot with? __P _X_E Brand?____sony_________________
>Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) _y_
>Do you edit your material? (y/n) _y_
>Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)_y___ Which?_VHS__
>What is the format of your edit master? _X_hi-8 __SVHS __3/4 Other_VHS_
>If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __P _X_E Brand? ___Sony___
>Dropout problems? Dropouts about as often as 1 per 5 minutes on brand
new master tape, during playback of master just after shooting.
Used in a clean household envirnment.
>
>Other relevant comments (optional):
Camera is brand new Sony TR81. Dropouts seriously annoying even though
they last less than 1/4 sec.
I see more dropouts in Hi-8 than 8 mm playback.
Please post results of your poll. Thanks.
Roe Hemenway <heme...@ll.mit.edu>
Return-Path: <heme...@ll.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 16:20:22 -0500
hi again:
>Have you tried the metal-P tape?
I use the metal-P tape (Sony also) in 8mm mode only.
I've noticed no dropouts with it.
BTW: I haven't spent _that_ much time in Hi8 mode
(less than 5 hours total taping time, I'd guess).
The drop outs I've seen represent one tape only.
Have you recieved many responses?
-Roe Hemenway. MIT Lincoln Laboratory
-------- _O 244 Wood St.
----- /_\, Lexington, Mass. 02173
_____________________--___O|/O__________________________________________
tel: 617/981-0109
fax: 617/981-0109 (CID = "*3")
e-mail: heme...@ll.mit.edu
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 16:35:34 -0500
From: mar...@monster.saic.com (Martin Hobson)
Organization: SAIC, McLean, VA
>What do you shoot with? Sony Hi8 "ME" formulation
>Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) yes, but only on the "MP" tapes
>Do you edit your material? (y/n) yes
>Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n) no
>What is the format of your edit master? I edit onto S-VHS with a Sony SLV-R5
>If editing to hi-8, what formulation?
>Dropout problems?
>
>Other relevant comments (optional):
The picture quality is noticeably different on the MP tapes. I'll never
buy another one. I haven't had any trouble with the ME tapes, despite
what people have been saying on the net (and elsewhere).
--
Martin Hobson - Special Projects Group, SAIC McLean
EMail: mar...@monster.saic.com
USnail: SAIC MS 1-8-1, 1710 Goodridge Dr, McLean, VA, 22102
Voice: (703)821-4358 FAX: (703)821-3884
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 16:01:54 -0600
From: cazabon@hercules (Chuck Cazabon...Amiga fan extraordinaire=)
Organization: U. of R. Film and Video Department=
:What do you shoot with? Yes __P Yes __E Brand? Sony
:Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) Yes, on both types
:Do you edit your material? (y/n) __Yes_
:Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)_ No Which?____
:What is the format of your edit master? hi-8
:If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __E Brand? Sony
:Dropout problems?
Well, you have to keep the tapes CLEAN, really clean. The smallest dust or
dirt particle on the tapes can cause a dropout. Also, with the Metal E
tapes, static electricity will really due a number on them. Causes more
dropouts. Recent changes in the composition of the tape shell seem to
alleviate this problem.
:Other relevant comments (optional):
The best thing you can do is put the tape in your camcorder, close it,
and then seal the hatch with electrical tape or similar. Most camcorder
doors don't fit quite right and let dust and dirt in. Keep your heads
clean, and don't ever let the cassettes out of their storage boxes (except
to put them in a camcorder/home deck).
--Chuck Cazabon, caz...@hercules.uregina.ca
* alternate address: caz...@meena.uregina.ca
* In the immortal words of JFK..."I am a jelly donut!"
Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 92 23:16:51 -0800
From: lar...@w6yx.Stanford.EDU (Alan Larson)
Organization: none
>What do you shoot with? __P __E Brand?_____________________
Sony and TDK HMP, and some Sony HME.
For 8mm, I use Somy MP-120.
>Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) ___
Yes. However, I also suspect that transport problems are more
obvious causes of dropouts.
>Do you edit your material? (y/n) ___
Sometimes, but not too often.
>Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)_ ___ Which?____
The main stuff that I have edited was transferred to Umatic,
through a TBC.
>What is the format of your edit master? __hi-8 __SVHS __3/4 Other______
Huh? Isn't this the same as the previous question? Or is this
"what do you edit to"? The 3/4 was to 3/4, and the direct is to
VHS.
>If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __P __E Brand?
Never to Hi8.
Seriously, most of what I do has not been serious enough to be
a real test. I would suggest running some of the stuff through
a good video test system, instead of this speculation. The last
time a friend and I did, we decided that Hi8 looked real good,
given that it measured out at 240 lines resolution!
Alan
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 92 12:23:40 EST
From: ro...@galaxy.Prime.COM (Joe Polcari)
Organization: Prime Computervision, Bedford MA
>What do you shoot with? X_P __E Brand?_Sony P6-120MP punched to Hi8
>Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) _N_
>Do you edit your material? (y/n) _Y_
>Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)_N___ Which?____
>What is the format of your edit master? X_hi-8 __SVHS __3/4 Other______
>If editing to hi-8, what formulation? __P __E Brand? Same as above
>Dropout problems? nope.
From: bad...@netcom.COM (Jay Keller)
Date: 23 Jan 92 03:53:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
What do you shoot with? --- Both MP and ME (mostly MP by far). Only Sony.
Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) Yes, slight. Mostly with ME.
Do you edit your material? (y/n) Yes, sometimes.
Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n) No.
Dropout problems?
Using ME tape, I have seen a few dropouts. But I have seen some dropouts that
are really severe (rarely), so I am basically afraid to use ME tape.
>
>Other relevant comments (optional):
MP dropouts have been rare enough to not cause me a problem. My stuff is
not for professional use however, but I do shoot a lot.
From: dhu...@esprit.prime.com (Dave Hukill x4056 5-1)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Date: 24 Jan 92 17:32:07 GMT
>
> What do you shoot with? ME Brand? Sony
> Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) Very few when first using the tape,
more when the tape is re-used. Note: Sony just release their new ME HI8 tape,
which supposedly has 'anti-static' packaging, which is supposed to reduce
dropout problems. I just bought a couple, so I can't comment on this claim.
> Do you edit your material? (y/n) Always
> Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n) Yes Which? VHS
> What is the format of your edit master? __hi-8 __SVHS __3/4 Other VHS,
although I would like to upgrade to HI8 or SVHS eventually, but $$$ keeps
getting in the way. I'm also not sure which would be the better choice in
the long run. SVHS is the obvious way to go right now, but I'm waiting to
see some HI8 decks soon with more editing capabilities, at reasonable prices.
From: t...@mvuxb.att.com (Thomas L Du Breuil)
To: goldberg
>
>What do you shoot with? Evap. Brand? Mostly Sony ME120, a few Canon(which
appear identical in all ways but the name labels. I've also shot a few MetalP.
>Have you had dropout problems? (y/n) no
>Do you edit your material? (y/n) no
>Do you transfer to another format first? (y/n)yes Which? VHS
>What is the format of your edit master? hi-8
>If editing to hi-8, what formulation? not applicable
>Dropout problems? I've had minimal dropout problems but I haven't done
serious editing work and I've only played back material a few times on
average (2-5 normal playbacks; I rarely use still frame/frame advance-type
features on playback, but I always use the Canon A1 "cueing" feature that
allows the new recording to start right you want, either on top of old stuff,
or seamlessly at the end of the old stuff).
>
>Other relevant comments (optional): I pressed a Canon rep. at a trade show
a couple years ago about the durability and he tried hard to not say anything.
He finally said that he thought MetalP survived editing better than MetalE
but that MetalE delivered the best image if not used for lots of editing.
He also said that he expected MetalP to survive storage in the presence of
humidity better than MetalE. He didn't instill confidence that he was
really knowledgable in this area, though, so I don't know how credible this
info is/was.
At a recent trade show/sale I was at, the Fuji MetalP 120 cassettes were
significantly cheaper than the Sony or other brands present. I didn't buy
any, though, because I didn't know anything abouts it quality and it was
sold in case lots only.
/|/| /||)|/ /~_/\| |\|)[~|)/~_ | Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
/ | |/~||\|\ \_/\/|_|/|)[_|\\_/ | gold...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======
Path: oasys!dtix!relay.nswc.navy.mil!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!tardis!jms
From: j...@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.video
Subject: Re: TR-81 questions
Summary: HME has more dropouts than HMP
Message-ID: <28...@tardis.Tymnet.COM>
Date: 20 Apr 92 06:11:25 GMT
References: <jackh.703726858@taffy>
Organization: BT North America (Tymnet)
Lines: 21
In article <jackh.703726858@taffy> ja...@rice.edu (Jack W. Howarth) writes:
> I have noticed that the recordings on the tape provided with my TR-81
>occasionally exhibit artifacts like bands of distortion or lines very
>briefly during play back. The tape is the Sony Evaporated Metal and
>I am curious whether this is normal, bad tape or a maladjusted TR-81.
> It occurs only infrequently.
I borrowed a TR-81 one weekend, and recorded the festivities on two HME
(Hi8 Metal Evaporated) and two HMP (Hi8 Metal Particle) tapes. On playback,
I noticed that the HME tapes had a slightly better picture than the HMP
tapes, but they had a lot more dropouts. The dropouts on that HME tapes
last about 1/2 second, create a noticable glitch in the video, and cause
the audio to shut off for almost a full second.
Others have posted about this; it's a trade-off - do you want a better picture
or do you want fewer dropouts. I think I'll stay with the particle tapes.
--
Joe Smith (408)922-6220 | SMTP: j...@tardis.tymnet.com DIALCOM: J.SMITH
BTNA Tech Services TYMNET| CA license plate: "POPJ P," PDP-10, 36 bits forever
PO Box 49019, MS-C51 | Married to the LB, Quantum Leap's #1 net.fan
San Jose, CA 95161-9019 | humorous disclaimer: "My Amiga 3000 speaks for me."
/|/| /||)|/ /~_/\| |\|)[~|)/~_ | Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
/ | |/~||\|\ \_/\/|_|/|)[_|\\_/ | gold...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======