Really Removing Macrovision
Greg Haas
Macrovision, but none of them really do the job. You can prove it yourself.
Find a television that has a manual control for the vertical hold. Adjust
the set so the black bar is in the middle of the screen. Then display a
source that has been passed through any particular device. Odds are you will
still see the tell-tale Macrovision pulses, though they will be clearly
attenuated. The source may be recordable, but it is far from a source that
has had the MV pulses removed.
The correct device is one that generates a completely new vertical blanking
interval, with no troublesome macrovision pulses. Of course, anything else
in the VBI would be lost as well, particularly the closed captioning. I have
seen such device, but not recently. Could anyone one post or email to me any
leads on where to find such a device.
Best Wishes,
Greg Haas
John S. Dyson
by passing the video through a DPS-290 TBC. The cool thing about that
TBC is that it handles (S-Video, Composite and Component) X (In, Out)
with full flexibility. The DPS TBC is effective with both the new
and older styles of macrovision, and is effective at cleaning up
DVD's just fine. The only minus that I have seen about the DPS TBC
is that the chroma resolution is less than about 1.5MHz. That is PLENTY
for S-Video and composite, but component sources (like my D9 equipment)
has more bandwidth than the TBC. I suspect that the DPS TBC is a
match in performance for DV and DVCAM, but have only investigated that
passingly. The difference between D9 (4:2:2) and the effective (4:1:1)
DPS TBC is measurable, but not extremely obvious without eagle-eyes.
I have found that the Sima device (I think that it is the professional SCC?)
has some interesting bandwidth limitations (probably comb filter related),
and doesn't always fully remove the macrovision. The Sima device also
appears to degrade video significantly enough to be obvious during
'normal' let alone 'super critical' videophile or professional review
or viewing (too much damage to video for my taste when displaying on
'good' video equipment.)
I don't normally make a habit of 'removing' macrovision, but once in a
very long while, it is useful to do so. I am keeping my eyes open for
a good 4:2:2 TBC that doesn't cost an arm and a leg -- but I haven't
really 'needed' one yet, because for any legit purpose for me, a
4:1:1 TBC is just good enough. (I bought the TBC because I wanted
a general purpose device to stabilize various random video sources
because my D9 stuff is fairly picky about the timing... Even the
laser disks that don't have full TBC's aren't always stable enough
because mechanical jarring appears to cause the timing to get bad enough
to cause the D9 recorders to loose sync.) The most common source where
I need something to correct the video would be old helical scan decks.
By going 'all the way' and getting a real TBC, I KNOW that the video
being produced is correct. I guess that I could have used a video
mixer for the purpose, but I didn't want to tie it up, and I wanted
a flexable, Swiss Army knife type device to create CORRECT timing.
BTW, when running tests on my D9 stuff, the video essentials DVD (whatever
it's name is today) is almost a perfect copy when bypassing the TBC. Frankly,
it is impossible (for me) except for dropouts (which never have happened for
me) to detect the difference between the original DVD and a D9 copy made
with a direct component connection. When I use the TBC for recording, there
are obvious differences during critical viewing (more critical than almost
any reasonable entertainment viewing) of a D9 copy. I cannot
athoritatively claim that the quality 'drops' to DV quality -- to check
it carefully, I'd have to run test recordings with several generations.
So, I guess that I am echoing the various anecdotal comments about the
fact that a real TBC can eliminate macrovision (even recent versions.)
IMO, there are few legit reasons for eliminating macrovision, but when
it is necessary, it is a pain unless you have the right tool. It is
good to have a tool that takes unstable video from almost any source
and corrects it. Macrovision is just one form of 'wierd' video that
a TBC can 'correct.'
John
Mike reverse the letters S.
In article <1fHq5.1458$BM2.1...@news.pacbell.net>,
Greg Haas <gfh...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>There are a number of devices (including the SIMA SCC) that claim to defeat
>Macrovision, but none of them really do the job. You can prove it yourself.
>Find a television that has a manual control for the vertical hold. Adjust
>the set so the black bar is in the middle of the screen. Then display a
>source that has been passed through any particular device. Odds are you will
>still see the tell-tale Macrovision pulses, though they will be clearly
>attenuated. The source may be recordable, but it is far from a source that
>has had the MV pulses removed.
>
>The correct device is one that generates a completely new vertical blanking
>interval, with no troublesome macrovision pulses. Of course, anything else
>in the VBI would be lost as well, particularly the closed captioning. I have
>seen such device, but not recently. Could anyone one post or email to me any
>leads on where to find such a device.
Run the signal through a cheap 4:2:2 time base converter, like the
Datavideo TBC-1000 (less than $300).
John S. Dyson
and S-Video In/Out, and doesn't appear to have component. Even though it
might solve the original user's problem, it can't really supply 4:2:2
performance
for me.
By using either composite I/O or S-Video I/O, the chroma response is
really limited to about 1.2MHz. It is *possible* for S-Video to work
a little better than that, but that almost never happens. What I have
been looking for is *better* than 1.5MHz, and would like to see 2MHz
or better.
I wonder if the device is *really* 4:2:2 internally, since 4:2:2 performance
I/O looks improbable. (This is regarding my parallel reply regarding the
DPS-290.)
Does anyone know of any 4:2:2 TBC's that have I/O capable of supporting
the 4:2:2 quality? I don't want to spend over $2K or $3K.
Thanks to anyone who has info!!!
John
Norm Strong
>Run the signal through a cheap 4:2:2 time base converter, like the
>Datavideo TBC-1000 (less than $300).
>
The idea of paying $300 to eliminate a manmade problem purposely created in a
$200 piece of equipment to make my life miserable, leaves such a bad taste in
my mouth, I can't emphasize too much how angry that would make me.
I would not buy such a piece of equipment--or the device to fix it.
Fortunately, Apex came along. Otherwise I would not have a DVD player today.
Nor would I buy a tape on which Macrovision has done their evil work. And I
never will.
Norm Strong (nh...@aol.com)
2528 31st South, Seattle WA 98l44
J. Pratt
noticed that through the Sima SCC, DVD->VHS is fine, but DVD->miniDV
doesn't work, I get the copy inhibit message.
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On 29 Aug 2000 14:56:55 GMT, rets...@xinap.moc (Mike "reverse the
letters" S.) wrote:
>
>In article <1fHq5.1458$BM2.1...@news.pacbell.net>,
>Greg Haas <gfh...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>There are a number of devices (including the SIMA SCC) that claim to defeat
>>Macrovision, but none of them really do the job. You can prove it yourself.
>>Find a television that has a manual control for the vertical hold. Adjust
>>the set so the black bar is in the middle of the screen. Then display a
>>source that has been passed through any particular device. Odds are you will
>>still see the tell-tale Macrovision pulses, though they will be clearly
>>attenuated. The source may be recordable, but it is far from a source that
>>has had the MV pulses removed.
>>
>>The correct device is one that generates a completely new vertical blanking
>>interval, with no troublesome macrovision pulses. Of course, anything else
>>in the VBI would be lost as well, particularly the closed captioning. I have
>>seen such device, but not recently. Could anyone one post or email to me any
>>leads on where to find such a device.
>
>Run the signal through a cheap 4:2:2 time base converter, like the
>Datavideo TBC-1000 (less than $300).
>
John S. Dyson
s...@hotmail.com (J. Pratt) writes:
> Will this correct the inability of duping from DVD -> miniDV? I have
> noticed that through the Sima SCC, DVD->VHS is fine, but DVD->miniDV
> doesn't work, I get the copy inhibit message.
>
record DVD's to my DHR-1000 Sony DV deck. My JVC 750 D9 deck just doesn't
like the raw Macrovision signal, or the output of the Sima SCC. (The
D9 deck is very finiky about the video input, and doesn't like non
TBC'ed VHS or even non-TBC'ed laser-disk... The laser-disk rotational
stability is influenced enough by physical jarring the the D9 doesn't
like it when the LD player is jarred at all. Even some disks aren't
stable enough by themselves for the D9 deck.) Frankly, I don't
remember trying to test-record a copy protected DVD onto my JVC 9600 SVHS
deck.
By using my TBC, the junk in the video is totally removed, and both
decks can record a DVD now. Of course, since it works for me now,
I don't really have a use for it... I just don't like not being
able to do something that I want to do, and the reason for not being
able to do it is so silly.
On my DHR1000, I got the copy inhibit message. On the D9 deck, I got
wierd sync errors, and it seems that the deck doesn't sync correctly
to both fields (it seems that one field is black or distorted.) I
cannot imagine that the D9 deck has special copy inhibit circuitry
(but maybe it does, since it supposedly uses a derivative of DV stuff.)
My TBC nukes the Macrovision entirely. As I had mentioned before, my
TBC seems to limit the chroma to below about 1.5MHz or so... That isn't
a significant limitation for DV, Betacam-SP, Hi8, 3/4" or SVHS. It *is* a
limitation for the 50Mbps digital formats or better though.
John
J. Pratt
number of copy protection systems on them:
Analog -> Analog: Macrovision Level 1 and 2.
Analog -> Digital: CGMS/A. This system puts additional codes on NTSC
line 21. Most (but not all) miniDV camcorders will look for this
signal, and display the "copy prohibit" message.
Digital -> Digital: CCMS/D. I don't believe this has been finalized
yet.
Does anyone know which miniDV camcorders do not recognize CGMS/A? I
am sure I can buy something in Asia that has this feature, but that's
going to a lot of trouble just to get around a consumer-hostile
feature.
Alternately, can I use an editor/corrector to strip out the info in
CGMS/A?
Thanks.
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