difference between preamp-out and line-out?
nos...@voyager.net
What's the difference between pre-amp output, and line-level output?
I know on the pre-amp ouput the signal is not amplified and needs an
amplifier (either external or build-in on the speaker) to do the job.
But is it the same as a line level signal?
Ie, is there any difference between connecting powered (computer)
speakers to the tape-out or pre-out on the receiver?
Thanks.
Kalman Rubinson
>
>What's the difference between pre-amp output, and line-level output?
In general, none.
>I know on the pre-amp ouput the signal is not amplified and needs an
>amplifier (either external or build-in on the speaker) to do the job.
>But is it the same as a line level signal?
Yes.
>Ie, is there any difference between connecting powered (computer)
>speakers to the tape-out or pre-out on the receiver?
Aha! Pre-out and tape-out may both be at line-level but tape-out is
NOT volume-controlled. So, unless you intend to use the volume
controls on your speakers, I suggest using pre-out with the software
VC in the computer.
Kal
Robert Rowton
Hello,
Although both signals are considered to be line-level, the tape output
precedes the volume, balance, and tone controls in your receiver and
is therefore unaffected by their settings.
JBorg, Jr.
> Hello,
> Although both signals are considered to be line-level, the tape output
> precedes the volume, balance, and tone controls in your receiver and
> is therefore unaffected by their settings.
Thanks for the kind reply both from Robert and Kalman. I have this
same question also about my line-level Audio Reaserch preamp. What I did
in my case was to use the preamp output and use a Y connector for each
(L) and (R) output to hook up (in mono) my 15" down firing, powered
Velodyne Subw.
Hooking up the subw directly through the line-level tape output made the
front speakers to sound better and this is obviously from not braking
the signal path with Y connector betw preamp to pwr amp. But then, the
problem I have with this approach is lack of volume control over the
powered subw. And although this subw has its own volume knob, a very
slight twist, say from 12 to 1 o'clock, produces sound that is so
overly loud.
Neil
> Robert Rowton <nospam...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > Hello,
> > Although both signals are considered to be line-level, the tape output
> > precedes the volume, balance, and tone controls in your receiver and
> > is therefore unaffected by their settings.
>
> Thanks for the kind reply both from Robert and Kalman. I have this
> same question also about my line-level Audio Reaserch preamp. What I did
> in my case was to use the preamp output and use a Y connector for each
> (L) and (R) output to hook up (in mono) my 15" down firing, powered
> Velodyne Subw.
>
> Hooking up the subw directly through the line-level tape output made the
> front speakers to sound better and this is obviously from not braking
> the signal path with Y connector betw preamp to pwr amp.
I seriously doubt a Y connector would make any difference in the
sound, especially not compared to the big difference adding a
subwoofer will make.
Is it possible that when the L and R stereo signals reached the
Velodyne subwoofer, the L and R stereo signals were combined into a
mono signal throughout the system? Going from stereo to mono would
make a noticeable difference.
Another question: Are you following the directions in the Velodyne
manual?
Does the Velodyne have L and R stereo outputs that would go to your
stereo amp, something like the following?
Preamp -> Velodyne sub input -> Velodyne sub output -> stereo amp ->
speakers
> But then, the
> problem I have with this approach is lack of volume control over the
> powered subw.
Agree. If you use the line-level (tape) preamp output connected to the
Velodyne's input, you won't be able to control the sub's volume from
the preamp. That inconvenience might not bother you.
>And although this subw has its own volume knob, a very
> slight twist, say from 12 to 1 o'clock, produces sound that is so
> overly loud.
If you're having the problem you mention above, an inline attenuator
to lower the signal from the preamp might help. A car-stereo dealer
could probably help you find an inexpensive attenuator from Harrison
Labs or another maker, or you might be able to make your own. Adding
the attenuator might make the Velodyne's volume control less
sensitive.
Overall, if I were you I'd look at your manuals and for the preamp and
the sub and make sure everything is connected the way the manuals
recommend.
If you don't have the manuals, perhaps the makers offer those online,
so you could download and read through the manuals?
If that doesn't fix things, see your dealer and ask for help. You
might need to make an appointment to bring in all your gear, or ask
the dealer to come to your home. I have a feeling that somebody
looking at your gear in person might be able to get everything running
properly from the preamp to the sub and be able to straighten out
everything in a few minutes.
JBorg, Jr.
> (Neil) wrote
> > (JBorg, Jr.) wrote
> > > Robert Rowton wrote
>
> > > Hello,
> > > Although both signals are considered to be line-level, the tape output
> > > precedes the volume, balance, and tone controls in your receiver and
> > > is therefore unaffected by their settings.
> >
> > Thanks for the kind reply both from Robert and Kalman. I have this
> > same question also about my line-level Audio Reaserch preamp. What I did
> > in my case was to use the preamp output and use a Y connector for each
> > (L) and (R) output to hook up (in mono) my 15" down firing, powered
> > Velodyne Subw.
> >
> > Hooking up the subw directly through the line-level tape output made the
> > front speakers to sound better and this is obviously from not braking
> > the signal path with Y connector betw preamp to pwr amp.
>
> I seriously doubt a Y connector would make any difference in the
> sound, especially not compared to the big difference adding a
> subwoofer will make.
>
I'm just gonna have to disagree here Neil. Having the Y connector
betw preamp and pwr amp, which is my current set-up, has its disadvantages.
Without the Y connectors, images are sharper and much more palpable.
There are many more but these are the first things that I would notice-
as I have switch back n forth with n without the Y's many times before.
Adding a subw of course, help me forget about it (for a while).
> Is it possible that when the L and R stereo signals reached the
> Velodyne subwoofer, the L and R stereo signals were combined into a
> mono signal throughout the system? Going from stereo to mono would
> make a noticeable difference.
>
What I meant by mono is that the subw is rec'ving both L and R signal
from each channel. Here's the sig. path:
preamp----> Y connectors -----> subw amp ----> subw speaker
|
|-----> pwr amp ----> speakers (electrostatic)
So, I don't think the subw sys is capable of turning the rest into
mono.
> Another question: Are you following the directions in the Velodyne
> manual?
>
No, I decided not to follow their manual early on. Velodyne Co. think
highly of their subw amp but I tried it before and I was not happy.
> Does the Velodyne have L and R stereo outputs that would go to your
> stereo amp, something like the following?
>
> Preamp -> Velodyne sub input -> Velodyne sub output -> stereo amp ->
> speakers
>
Yes, that's correct Neil and I tried that too. After that, I decided
against it. Those whirling circuitries in their subw amp was adding so
much impurities to the signal flow, it's unbearable.
> > But then, the
> > problem I have with this approach is lack of volume control over the
> > powered subw.
>
> Agree. If you use the line-level (tape) preamp output connected to the
> Velodyne's input, you won't be able to control the sub's volume from
> the preamp. That inconvenience might not bother you.
>
It really does bother me and that's why I decided to use the Y's.
> > And although this subw has its own volume knob, a very
> > slight twist, say from 12 to 1 o'clock, produces sound that is so
> > overly loud.
>
> If you're having the problem you mention above, an inline attenuator
> to lower the signal from the preamp might help. A car-stereo dealer
> could probably help you find an inexpensive attenuator from Harrison
> Labs or another maker, or you might be able to make your own. Adding
> the attenuator might make the Velodyne's volume control less
> sensitive.
Thanks for the idea. Your suggesting to put an attenuator on the signal
wires betw preamp to subw amp. My only question is how much would that
putrefy the subw sound ?
> If that doesn't fix things, see your dealer and ask for help.
Well, I'm only 10 miles away from Velodyne's headquarters and I've been
inside their mfr. site. It was so funny to see hundreds of those
colossal baffles marching up and down the assembly lines... Anyway,
I ask them about alternative ways for set-ups, but they just told me
to use their amp as the signal hub. So, that was that.
> I have a feeling that somebody
> looking at your gear in person might be able to get everything running
> properly from the preamp to the sub and be able to straighten out
> everything in a few minutes.
I hope your not thinkin about Howie or Arnii, are you not? ...
'cause that's not funny, you know?
<back to lurking mode>
Neuman - Ruether
(JBorg, Jr.) wrote:
>> I seriously doubt a Y connector would make any difference in the
>> sound, especially not compared to the big difference adding a
>> subwoofer will make.
[Y at tape out]
>I'm just gonna have to disagree here Neil. Having the Y connector
>betw preamp and pwr amp, which is my current set-up, has its disadvantages.
>Without the Y connectors, images are sharper and much more palpable.
>There are many more but these are the first things that I would notice-
>as I have switch back n forth with n without the Y's many times before.
[...........]
I used to design, build, and sell LARGE subwoofers
(ones that really did what the others only promised ;-).
See: http://www.ferrario.com/ruether/Audio.html.
Some comments:
- If you "Y" off either the tape out (no volume/tone
control) or off the preamp line out and directly
combine one set of outputs to feed a mono subwoofer,
you will force the preamp channels to mono (and this
can damage the preamp, depending on its design).
- If there is a series resistor before the outputs
of the preamp, and/or at the sub (stereo) inputs,
the size of the resistor will determine the amount
of stereo lost with the connections (but even fairly
small values may protect the preamp).
- You can add resistors to the legs of the "Y" adapters
that go to the subwoofer (try 5k on each to start).
- If there are ANY electronics within the sub box in
series with the preamp-amp connectors (even a single
high-quality capacitor in series with the power
amp), the sound of the main speakers with the sub
turned off will change - generally for the worse
(even with a big enough cap to start cutting response
well below the speakers lower limit, even if the cap
is paralleled with small high-quality caps to improve
their high-end response...), so with very detailed
speakers (many electrostatics are), you can easily
hear the effect of the series electronics and may want
to avoid them.
- Sub placement is critical, though good sub output is
omnidirectional. Poor placement can result in very
uneven response and can also spoil directional info of
well-placed high-quality main speakers.
- With my sub designs, I used two methods of crossing
over between the sub and the main speakers: the common
one of building a high-quality 12db/octave low-cut
pair for the main speakers, combined with a soft-edged
24db/octave summing/EQing/level-control crossover for
the sub (works well for most systems); or, a direct
connection of the preamp line out with the main-speaker
amps inputs (no crossover for these - they roll off
by themselves, which is why the sub is desired...;-),
with an adjustable angle 36db-ultimate, soft-corner-
start EQ/response-rotate/level-adjust "crossover" for
the bass, which permits blending of the sub into the
main speaker output without electronically disturbing
them.
- Even with this arrangement, subtle shifts in the sub
output-level/response-shape can effect the audio balance
all the way to the highest frequencies of the main
speakers (I never came up with a good explanation for
this...), so the adjustment must be done with great
care (this can take several days to get it right - but
when you do, the original excellent sound has the
benefits of the addition of the lower frequencies).
- Done right, a sub adds subjectively higher sound
levels to the same levels previously used, adds
"solidity" and "excitement" without "boom" or
"bluddle-luddle" effects, and even the background
"air" of recordings with little real bass sounds
better-balanced. And, a good sub set-up NEVER makes
you aware of the sub as a sound source...
- Done wrong, adding a sub is worse than not...
David Ruether
rp...@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
Hey, check out www.visitithaca.com too...!
Neil
> (I sent this yesterday and got lost)
>
>
> > (Neil) wrote
> > > (JBorg, Jr.) wrote
> > > > Robert Rowton wrote
(snip)
> > Is it possible that when the L and R stereo signals reached the
> > Velodyne subwoofer, the L and R stereo signals were combined into a
> > mono signal throughout the system? Going from stereo to mono would
> > make a noticeable difference.
> >
>
> What I meant by mono is that the subw is rec'ving both L and R signal
> from each channel. Here's the sig. path:
>
> preamp----> Y connectors -----> subw amp ----> subw speaker
> |
> |-----> pwr amp ----> speakers (electrostatic)
>
> So, I don't think the subw sys is capable of turning the rest into
> mono.
OK. Just wanted to make sure you hadn't accidentally connected the Y
connectors in some way that would've accidentally bridged the L and R
channels.
> > Another question: Are you following the directions in the Velodyne
> > manual?
> >
>
> No, I decided not to follow their manual early on. Velodyne Co. think
> highly of their subw amp but I tried it before and I was not happy.
Maybe the sub and speakers just aren't a good match? If you bought
either recently, maybe you can work with your dealer and find gear
that does match better?
If the speaker maker makes or can recommend a sub, that might be a
good option.
> > Does the Velodyne have L and R stereo outputs that would go to your
> > stereo amp, something like the following?
> >
> > Preamp -> Velodyne sub input -> Velodyne sub output -> stereo amp ->
> > speakers
> >
>
> Yes, that's correct Neil and I tried that too. After that, I decided
> against it. Those whirling circuitries in their subw amp was adding so
> much impurities to the signal flow, it's unbearable.
I haven't heard your gear, so I'll assume you're correct here. I'm
surprised that other than losing some low frequencies in the main
speakers (which assuming the Velodyne is designed to eliminate those
from the line-level outputs, is normal), you would be able to hear any
difference. If the change is really "unbearable," then something must
really be wrong.
Maybe this whole subwoofer thing just isn't for you and you should get
rid of the sub and forget about it? I've owned some speaker/sub
combinations of gear and found that while it sure seems like they'd
sound good together, somehow no matter how much adjustment I do, it
never sounds too good, and it's hard to say why. Then I've stumbled
onto some combos that somehow really worked well together. (No
technical measurements, just talking about what sounds good
subjectively to me.) Maybe you've got a combination of gear that just
doesn't and isn't ever going to work for your needs/taste?
> > > But then, the
> > > problem I have with this approach is lack of volume control over the
> > > powered subw.
> >
> > Agree. If you use the line-level (tape) preamp output connected to the
> > Velodyne's input, you won't be able to control the sub's volume from
> > the preamp. That inconvenience might not bother you.
> >
>
> It really does bother me and that's why I decided to use the Y's.
I guess I might sound a bit spoiled, but having to adjust the
subwoofer's volume separately also strikes me as too much hassle.
> > > And although this subw has its own volume knob, a very
> > > slight twist, say from 12 to 1 o'clock, produces sound that is so
> > > overly loud.
> >
> > If you're having the problem you mention above, an inline attenuator
> > to lower the signal from the preamp might help. A car-stereo dealer
> > could probably help you find an inexpensive attenuator from Harrison
> > Labs or another maker, or you might be able to make your own. Adding
> > the attenuator might make the Velodyne's volume control less
> > sensitive.
>
> Thanks for the idea. Your suggesting to put an attenuator on the signal
> wires betw preamp to subw amp. My only question is how much would that
> putrefy the subw sound ?
I don't think that would harm the sub's sound at all. Even if it
somehow introduced some distortion, I doubt it would be audible in the
frequencies where a sub works. Anyway, I suggested the above because
having the attenuator might help reduce the sensitivity of your
subwoofer's volume control.
> > If that doesn't fix things, see your dealer and ask for help.
>
> Well, I'm only 10 miles away from Velodyne's headquarters and I've been
> inside their mfr. site. It was so funny to see hundreds of those
> colossal baffles marching up and down the assembly lines... Anyway,
> I ask them about alternative ways for set-ups, but they just told me
> to use their amp as the signal hub. So, that was that.
Hmmm...just what I suggested!
> > I have a feeling that somebody
> > looking at your gear in person might be able to get everything running
> > properly from the preamp to the sub and be able to straighten out
> > everything in a few minutes.
(snip)
Sometimes a fresh set of eyes can make a lot of difference, and
somebody else who is knowledgeable about audio might be able to take a
look at your setup and see something that's obvious to them, but not
to you, or to somebody like me, who's never seen or heard your gear.
I'm not knocking your knowledge and experience, it's just that a fresh
set of eyes and an outsider's opinion can make a worthwhile difference
and might bring some fresh thinking and new interpretation to any
situation.
JBorg, Jr.
> >(JBorg, Jr.) wrote:
>
> >> I seriously doubt a Y connector would make any difference in the
> >> sound, especially not compared to the big difference adding a
> >> subwoofer will make.
> [Y at tape out]
No, the Y is at preamp output to split the sig. betw pwr amp and subw amp.
> >I'm just gonna have to disagree here Neil. Having the Y connector
> >betw preamp and pwr amp, which is my current set-up, has its disadvantages.
> >Without the Y connectors, images are sharper and much more palpable.
> >There are many more but these are the first things that I would notice-
> >as I have switch back n forth with n without the Y's many times before.
> [...........]
>
> I used to design, build, and sell LARGE subwoofers
> (ones that really did what the others only promised ;-).
> See: http://www.ferrario.com/ruether/Audio.html.
> Some comments:
> - If you "Y" off either the tape out (no volume/tone
> control) or off the preamp line out and directly
> combine one set of outputs to feed a mono subwoofer,
> you will force the preamp channels to mono (and this
> can damage the preamp, depending on its design).
Wow! good info. Yes, I think the output sig. from preamp
is never really meant to be split with Y to connect to
a single subw system. I just took those Y splitters just
now and plugged the subw to the preamp's tape out. I
notice a better stereo separations on the main speakers
right away.
> - If there is a series resistor before the outputs
> of the preamp, and/or at the sub (stereo) inputs,
> the size of the resistor will determine the amount
> of stereo lost with the connections (but even fairly
> small values may protect the preamp).
Ok.
> - You can add resistors to the legs of the "Y" adapters
> that go to the subwoofer (try 5k on each to start).
> - If there are ANY electronics within the sub box in
> series with the preamp-amp connectors (even a single
> high-quality capacitor in series with the power
> amp), the sound of the main speakers with the sub
> turned off will change - generally for the worse
> (even with a big enough cap to start cutting response
> well below the speakers lower limit, even if the cap
> is paralleled with small high-quality caps to improve
> their high-end response...), so with very detailed
> speakers (many electrostatics are), you can easily
> hear the effect of the series electronics and may want
> to avoid them.
Thanks, I really do not wanna go this route anyway.
I would probably just replace the preamp with one having
(2) subw output. I heard it's better to use two identical
subw.
> - Sub placement is critical, though good sub output is
> omnidirectional. Poor placement can result in very
> uneven response and can also spoil directional info of
> well-placed high-quality main speakers.
> - With my sub designs, I used two methods of crossing
> over between the sub and the main speakers: the common
> one of building a high-quality 12db/octave low-cut
> pair for the main speakers, combined with a soft-edged
> 24db/octave summing/EQing/level-control crossover for
> the sub (works well for most systems); or, a direct
> connection of the preamp line out with the main-speaker
> amps inputs (no crossover for these - they roll off
> by themselves, which is why the sub is desired...;-),
> with an adjustable angle 36db-ultimate, soft-corner-
> start EQ/response-rotate/level-adjust "crossover" for
> the bass, which permits blending of the sub into the
> main speaker output without electronically disturbing
> them.
Sounds interesting. A subw outputs from pwr amps!
> - Even with this arrangement, subtle shifts in the sub
> output-level/response-shape can effect the audio balance
> all the way to the highest frequencies of the main
> speakers (I never came up with a good explanation for
> this...), so the adjustment must be done with great
> care (this can take several days to get it right - but
> when you do, the original excellent sound has the
> benefits of the addition of the lower frequencies).
> - Done right, a sub adds subjectively higher sound
> levels to the same levels previously used, adds
> "solidity" and "excitement" without "boom" or
> "bluddle-luddle" effects, and even the background
> "air" of recordings with little real bass sounds
> better-balanced. And, a good sub set-up NEVER makes
> you aware of the sub as a sound source...
> - Done wrong, adding a sub is worse than not...
>
Thanks for the infos. and the website.
JBorg, Jr.
snip
>
> I haven't heard your gear, so I'll assume you're correct here. I'm
> surprised that other than losing some low frequencies in the main
> speakers (which assuming the Velodyne is designed to eliminate those
> from the line-level outputs, is normal), you would be able to hear any
> difference. If the change is really "unbearable," then something must
> really be wrong.
I emphatically use the word -unbearable- to discribe my experience using
the Velodyne's amp as signal hub. This set-up produces sound that is
just so disenchanting.
>
> Maybe this whole subwoofer thing just isn't for you and you should get
> rid of the sub and forget about it? I've owned some speaker/sub
> combinations of gear and found that while it sure seems like they'd
> sound good together, somehow no matter how much adjustment I do, it
> never sounds too good, and it's hard to say why. Then I've stumbled
> onto some combos that somehow really worked well together. (No
> technical measurements, just talking about what sounds good
> subjectively to me.) Maybe you've got a combination of gear that just
> doesn't and isn't ever going to work for your needs/taste?
>
Well, I'm still in the stage of looking for better ways to connect these
gear together.
> > > > But then, the
> > > > problem I have with this approach is lack of volume control over the
> > > > powered subw.
> > >
> > > Agree. If you use the line-level (tape) preamp output connected to the
> > > Velodyne's input, you won't be able to control the sub's volume from
> > > the preamp. That inconvenience might not bother you.
> > >
> >
> > It really does bother me and that's why I decided to use the Y's.
>
> I guess I might sound a bit spoiled, but having to adjust the
> subwoofer's volume separately also strikes me as too much hassle.
No, I don't mind walking back n forth adjusting their knobs separately.
I dislike the fact that the subw vol. control is so insensitive.
> > > > And although this subw has its own volume knob, a very
> > > > slight twist, say from 12 to 1 o'clock, produces sound that is so
> > > > overly loud.
> > >
> > > If you're having the problem you mention above, an inline attenuator
> > > to lower the signal from the preamp might help. A car-stereo dealer
> > > could probably help you find an inexpensive attenuator from Harrison
> > > Labs or another maker, or you might be able to make your own. Adding
> > > the attenuator might make the Velodyne's volume control less
> > > sensitive.
> >
> > Thanks for the idea. Your suggesting to put an attenuator on the signal
> > wires betw preamp to subw amp. My only question is how much would that
> > putrefy the subw sound ?
>
> I don't think that would harm the sub's sound at all. Even if it
> somehow introduced some distortion, I doubt it would be audible in the
> frequencies where a sub works. Anyway, I suggested the above because
> having the attenuator might help reduce the sensitivity of your
> subwoofer's volume control.
>
Yes ok. It's just that I had bad experience using signal attenuator in my
car audio before.
>
> Sometimes a fresh set of eyes can make a lot of difference, and
> somebody else who is knowledgeable about audio might be able to take a
> look at your setup and see something that's obvious to them, but not
> to you, or to somebody like me, who's never seen or heard your gear.
>
> I'm not knocking your knowledge and experience,
Oh no! you've been courteous and receptive to my predicament.
I enjoy reading your post and I take note to suggestions you've
given me.
> it's just that a fresh
> set of eyes and an outsider's opinion can make a worthwhile difference
> and might bring some fresh thinking and new interpretation to any
> situation.
Agreed.
Neuman - Ruether
[...]
>> >I'm just gonna have to disagree here Neil. Having the Y connector
>> >betw preamp and pwr amp, which is my current set-up, has its disadvantages.
>> >Without the Y connectors, images are sharper and much more palpable.
>> >There are many more but these are the first things that I would notice-
>> >as I have switch back n forth with n without the Y's many times before.
>> [...........]
>> I used to design, build, and sell LARGE subwoofers
>> (ones that really did what the others only promised ;-).
>> See: http://www.ferrario.com/ruether/Audio.html.
>> Some comments:
[....]
>> - If you "Y" off either the tape out (no volume/tone
>> control) or off the preamp line out and directly
>> combine one set of outputs to feed a mono subwoofer,
>> you will force the preamp channels to mono (and this
>> can damage the preamp, depending on its design).
>Wow! good info. Yes, I think the output sig. from preamp
>is never really meant to be split with Y to connect to
>a single subw system. I just took those Y splitters just
>now and plugged the subw to the preamp's tape out. I
>notice a better stereo separations on the main speakers
>right away.
Then the tape-outs must have larger protective resistors in
series than the line-level output does - but tying the
channels together without suitable series resistors on
each channel will likely reduce stereo separation
noticeably. These are easy to add...
>> - If there is a series resistor before the outputs
>> of the preamp, and/or at the sub (stereo) inputs,
>> the size of the resistor will determine the amount
>> of stereo lost with the connections (but even fairly
>> small values may protect the preamp).
>Ok.
>> - You can add resistors to the legs of the "Y" adapters
>> that go to the subwoofer (try 5k on each to start).
>> - If there are ANY electronics within the sub box in
>> series with the preamp-amp connectors (even a single
>> high-quality capacitor in series with the power
>> amp), the sound of the main speakers with the sub
>> turned off will change - generally for the worse
>> (even with a big enough cap to start cutting response
>> well below the speakers lower limit, even if the cap
>> is paralleled with small high-quality caps to improve
>> their high-end response...), so with very detailed
>> speakers (many electrostatics are), you can easily
>> hear the effect of the series electronics and may want
>> to avoid them.
>Thanks, I really do not wanna go this route anyway.
>I would probably just replace the preamp with one having
>(2) subw output. I heard it's better to use two identical
>subw.
Yes, this is true - but you can make a simple dual-mono
output with the needed series resistors very easily, and
still use a mono subwoofer...
>> - Sub placement is critical, though good sub output is
>> omnidirectional. Poor placement can result in very
>> uneven response and can also spoil directional info of
>> well-placed high-quality main speakers.
[...]
>> - With my sub designs, I used two methods of crossing
>> over between the sub and the main speakers: the common
>> one of building a high-quality 12db/octave low-cut
>> pair for the main speakers, combined with a soft-edged
>> 24db/octave summing/EQing/level-control crossover for
>> the sub (works well for most systems); or, a direct
>> connection of the preamp line out with the main-speaker
>> amps inputs (no crossover for these - they roll off
>> by themselves, which is why the sub is desired...;-),
>> with an adjustable angle 36db-ultimate, soft-corner-
>> start EQ/response-rotate/level-adjust "crossover" for
>> the bass, which permits blending of the sub into the
>> main speaker output without electronically disturbing
>> them.
>Sounds interesting. A subw outputs from pwr amps!
??????
No - the outputs are at line level and they parallel
the outputs to the main amps. These feed the EQing
device that feeds the subwoofer amp (and speaker),
matching up their response to blend in with the
already LF-rolled-off-on-their-own main speakers...
>> - Even with this arrangement, subtle shifts in the sub
>> output-level/response-shape can effect the audio balance
>> all the way to the highest frequencies of the main
>> speakers (I never came up with a good explanation for
>> this...), so the adjustment must be done with great
>> care (this can take several days to get it right - but
>> when you do, the original excellent sound has the
>> benefits of the addition of the lower frequencies).
>> - Done right, a sub adds subjectively higher sound
>> levels to the same levels previously used, adds
>> "solidity" and "excitement" without "boom" or
>> "bluddle-luddle" effects, and even the background
>> "air" of recordings with little real bass sounds
>> better-balanced. And, a good sub set-up NEVER makes
>> you aware of the sub as a sound source...
>> - Done wrong, adding a sub is worse than not...
>> David Ruether
>Thanks for the infos. and the website.
REAL bass can be FUN!!! ;-)
Neil
> neilk...@hotmail.com (Neil) wrote in message
> > genetica...@hotmail.com (JBorg, Jr.) wrote in message
(snip)
> > I'm not knocking your knowledge and experience,
>
> Oh no! you've been courteous and receptive to my predicament.
> I enjoy reading your post and I take note to suggestions you've
> given me.
Glad you took it that way. I know how frustrating it is when you buy a
lot of gear that's all supposed to be good, you hook it all up, and
somehow it just doesn't seem to gel, although it seems for every
possible reason it should work perfectly!
OTOH, I've also had the experience of putting together a system with
gear that no one ever thought of using together, and somehow it all
sounds terrific. I hate to use high-end terms like "system synergy,"
but sometimes, and probably for technical reasons I don't understand,
that synergy really is there, at least to my ear.
Anyway, hope you get all this sorted out. As I get older, I'm coming
to appreciate the idea of companies like Linn, who make a pretty full
range of products, all designed to work together, and I have less
interest in mixing and matching gear.
(snip)