Best hi8 camcorder?
Christopher Kalevi Nuuja
John Rosen, in his answer to "which 8mm vcr should I buy", writes:
If you want excellence, get the Sony CCD-V5000.
Does everybody agree on this? What about the Canon L1?
A consumer reports article rated the Canon L1 tops in image quality, but I
don't think they rated the Sony CCD-V5000.
Chris Nuuja
Randal L. Schwartz
I have two A1 Digitals, which use the same backend as the L1. I've
compared image qualities to my friend's V5000, and prefer the A1. I
suspect it may be the "Fuji vs. Kodak" type of decision, though (or
emacs vs. vi).
The V5000 has to go to "colored snow" mode to pick up stuff in low
light, which is a lot of the stuff I shoot. The A1 never seems to
have any colored snow, so I suspect the chip is much more sensitive.
That figures, given that the V5000 is 2.5 years old now and the A1 is
essentially 1.5 years old.
I understand the V5000's are being "deep-discounted" now, and that
Sony is about to release a high-end replacement. Watch out.
If it's any reference, the TR81 that I just bought (for use with my
new Steadicam JR) is as good or better than the A1 for low-light
sensitivity. So maybe the V5000 replacement will use the TR81's chip.
Just another video producer,
--
/=Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 ==========\
| on contract to Intel's iWarp project, Beaverton, Oregon, USA, Sol III |
| mer...@iwarp.intel.com ...!any-MX-mailer-like-uunet!iwarp.intel.com!merlyn |
\=Cute Quote: "Intel: putting the 'backward' in 'backward compatible'..."====/
Mike Reilly
>>Does everybody agree on this? What about the Canon L1?
I own a Cannon L1 so I am biased. I bought the Cannon because it is easier
to handle than the Sony. In many cases the image on the Cannon is better
but the difference itn't a lot and you probably wouldn't notice unless you
did a side by side comparison. (Colors seem to be a bit brighter on the Canon.)
After owning the L1 for awhile I can say I would recommend it to anyone.
BTW - I have found the standard lens for the L1 is sometines a bit heavy.
Being able to replace it with a lighter one (with a shorter zoom range) is
a big win. I am saving up for the wide angle lens now. Playing with one
in a store has shown me how useful it can be.
I'd recommend you try both camcorders and buy the one which feels better to
you. Check all three Canon lenses on the L1.
If they both feel good, choose the one with the features you will really
use.
I think you won't be disappointed with either machine.
--
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Michael Reilly
DEC Network Systems Lab (NSL) <rei...@nsl.dec.com>
Palo Alto, California or <rei...@decwrl.dec.com>
Jay Keller
(Christopher Kalevi Nuuja) writes:
To greatly summarize Jon's excellent post, he said if you want smallness, get
the TR-81, if you want goodness, get the CCD-V801, if you want excellence, get
the CCD-V5000. Reading that made me want to have all three!
And I really do think they are all three excellent products, although suited
for different applications.
First of all, Consumer Reports, inmyhumbleopinion, has their collective head
up their collective ass when it comes to evaluating high-tech equipment. I
might trust them greatly regarding a washing machine or a toaster, even maybe
a car, but from what I've seen of their consumer electronics and photographic
equipment comparisons, I'd avoid using them as a "knowledgeable source". They
often fail to distinguish between important differences among various
products, and give a lot of weight to the particular features which they find
important. The problem is that the reviews are done by professional product
test engineers, who are not especially familiar with the specific category of
product that they are testing.
Secondly, there is absolutely no question that the Canon L1 and the Sony CCD-
V5000 are both excellent camcorders. Either one will no doubt bring its
owner great delight, but neither will be perfect for all situations. I can
speak from personal experience in the case of the V5000, I've owned one for
about a year.
Also, my distrust of CR notwithstanding, there's no doubt that they
are correct if they said that the L1 produces a superb picture, though I've
never done a side-by-side comparison between the 2 machines for picture
quality. When I bought mine the L1 was pretty hard to find, and there were
other reasons I preferred the Sony.
I am in no way criticizing the Canon, but I will state some of the reasons I
like the Sony.
Brand loyalty - I have owned a lot of Sony consumer audio and video gear, with
very happy results. I very rarely get the thought "I would have designed
that feature a little differently" from Sony gear, which I very often get
with many of the products I use. Sony does some dumb things too, once in
a while, but the V5000 is definitely not one of them.
Picture quality - The V5000 has many picture-enhancing features, some of them
unique. It's the only consumer camcorder with a digital time-base corrector
which is a great enhancement to the stability of the output video signal.
The picture quality on my system (Sony 27" XBR) stands up extremely well to
that which comes out of my laserdisc player (Pioneer 3080).
Low light capability - I can shoot the baby on the living room floor with no
additional lighting, and still get a great picture with saturated colors.
This is important when I want to start shooting "right now" and don't have
time to get a light out (when I do have time, I just point a 300W tungsten
lamp in a clip-on reflector housing at the ceiling, and it gives me all the
light I need for maximum quality).
Digital audio - This is also unique to the Sony, and I like it. It sounds
better. There is also a built-in narration microphone (right near where
the operator's mouth is). The sound features, in general, are very flexible
and unmatched by any other machine (I have an article on this I wrote some
time ago which I could send you if you're interested).
Plus many other features. It takes me 45 minutes to describe them all, so I
won't try to write them all here. A few are basically useless (like digital
solarization), most are useful (like the built-in loudspeaker), and some are
just wonderful (like dual-speed edit search in record-pause mode or the 3-speed
power zoom).
It's very hard for me to find anything to complain about, but I'll nitpick:
only 4 of the approximately 9 or 10 digital picture features are controllable
from the remote. And, of course, I'd love to have the RC time-code and the
Data Code recording like the CCD-V801, which came out a year after mine. The
RC codes can be added to my tapes later, should I ever get an editing setup
that supports it. And I always record the date before the first shoot of a
day, so I can live without the Data Code feature, although I think it also is
great.
Sony also has a wider range of video accessories than anyone else (the carry-
ing case for the V5000 is a real beauty, and can easily stand up to just about
any abuse), and a great service network.
Regards,
Jay Keller
Santa Clara, California, USA
Internet: bad...@netcom.com
Jon Rosen
>In article <cdPSAki00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, cn09+@andrew (Christopher Kalevi Nuuja) writes:
>|
>| John Rosen, in his answer to "which 8mm vcr should I buy", writes:
>| If you want excellence, get the Sony CCD-V5000.
>|
>| Does everybody agree on this? What about the Canon L1?
>| A consumer reports article rated the Canon L1 tops in image quality, but I
>| don't think they rated the Sony CCD-V5000.
>
>I have two A1 Digitals, which use the same backend as the L1. I've
>compared image qualities to my friend's V5000, and prefer the A1. I
>suspect it may be the "Fuji vs. Kodak" type of decision, though (or
>emacs vs. vi).
net discussion last year and it took several months for everyone
to finally agree that the other side didn't know what it was
talking about :-)
As for the A1/L1, I agree that both are excellent camcorders. In
fact, I believe I broke the news on the L1 last year here on the
net and distributed the Canon address where people could buy it
at a discount. My bias towards Sony is principally for one
simple (and pragmatic) reason: I have a slew of NP55/77-type
batteries from my early Sony F40 days and I would NOT want to
start buygin new batteries from scratch for a Canon. Other than
that, it would truly be a toss-up on the L1/V5000 decision. Each
has some excellent features that surpass the other. The V5000
has a built-in TBC, the L1 has a 15x zoom. The V5000 has digital
stereo PCM audio, the L1 has gain-up and more digital video features.
The quality of both is top of the line and some people prefer the
Canon's slightly cooler colors, other prefer Sony's slightly
warmer colors.
>The V5000 has to go to "colored snow" mode to pick up stuff in low
>light, which is a lot of the stuff I shoot. The A1 never seems to
>have any colored snow, so I suspect the chip is much more sensitive.
>That figures, given that the V5000 is 2.5 years old now and the A1 is
>essentially 1.5 years old.
This is true, the V5000 desperately needs a chip upgrade to
keep it competitive but I expect to see it sometime early this
year.
>I understand the V5000's are being "deep-discounted" now, and that
>Sony is about to release a high-end replacement. Watch out.
Ah, yup, as noted.
>If it's any reference, the TR81 that I just bought (for use with my
>new Steadicam JR) is as good or better than the A1 for low-light
>sensitivity. So maybe the V5000 replacement will use the TR81's chip.
Hope so. And I hope it can autofocus down to the lens like the
TR81. That is an incredible feature, especially on the Steadicam.
You can run up to someone from, lets say, 30 feet, and go right
into their face and the picture stays in constant focus all the
way down to the "whites of their eyes". The Steadicam keeps the
camera rock-solid the whole time. It really has to be seen to
be believed.
Jon Rosen
Randal L. Schwartz
| >If it's any reference, the TR81 that I just bought (for use with my
| >new Steadicam JR) is as good or better than the A1 for low-light
| >sensitivity. So maybe the V5000 replacement will use the TR81's chip.
|
| Hope so. And I hope it can autofocus down to the lens like the
| TR81. That is an incredible feature, especially on the Steadicam.
| You can run up to someone from, lets say, 30 feet, and go right
| into their face and the picture stays in constant focus all the
| way down to the "whites of their eyes". The Steadicam keeps the
| camera rock-solid the whole time. It really has to be seen to
| be believed.
I second this. I have seen many many autofocus mechanisms in action.
The TR81's autofocus is the first that I'm actually happy with,
rivaling a good Infrared focus, but working down to zero. Infinity to
zero, rock solid, and *durn* fast at refocusing when you zip off into
a new subject all of a sudden.
The TR81 is the perfect camera for the Steadicam JR, even if you
*must* use it with a heavy battery to get it heavy enough to balance. :-)
(OK, so it's missing the shoe for the Obie light, but that can be
remedied with an adaptor, and the TR81 rarely needs additional light
anyway.)
Renu Raman
>compared image qualities to my friend's V5000, and prefer the A1. I
>suspect it may be the "Fuji vs. Kodak" type of decision, though (or
>emacs vs. vi).
>
>The V5000 has to go to "colored snow" mode to pick up stuff in low
>light, which is a lot of the stuff I shoot. The A1 never seems to
>have any colored snow, so I suspect the chip is much more sensitive.
>That figures, given that the V5000 is 2.5 years old now and the A1 is
>essentially 1.5 years old.
>
>I understand the V5000's are being "deep-discounted" now, and that
>Sony is about to release a high-end replacement. Watch out.
>
>If it's any reference, the TR81 that I just bought (for use with my
>new Steadicam JR) is as good or better than the A1 for low-light
>sensitivity. So maybe the V5000 replacement will use the TR81's chip.
>
>Just another video producer,
>--
>/=Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 ==========\
About 2 months back, before I went on a long vacation to India,
I bought a Canon A-1 (2 days before I left) - thanks for
recomendation from folks here in rec.video (Randall's recommendation
came thru). I would say - it stood the test very well - in terms
of picture quality (color + resolution), rough handling (dusty and
moisture laden environment - somewhat tropical kind). Glad I
bought this piece.
Got to get back and start editing 20hrs of recording.....
Wish we see more Hi8 decks (and affordable at that) and hopefully
Hi8 does not end up being like betamax...
renu raman
--
--------------------------------
Renukanthan Raman ARPA:r...@sun.com
M/S 16-11, 2500 Garcia Avenue, TEL :415-336-1813
Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, CA 94043
Craig Gruneberg
>In article <1992Jan13.02...@locus.com>, jfr@locus (Jon Rosen) writes:
>| >If it's any reference, the TR81 that I just bought (for use with my
>| >new Steadicam JR) is as good or better than the A1 for low-light
>| >sensitivity. So maybe the V5000 replacement will use the TR81's chip.
>|
>| Hope so. And I hope it can autofocus down to the lens like the
>| TR81. That is an incredible feature, especially on the Steadicam.
>| You can run up to someone from, lets say, 30 feet, and go right
>| into their face and the picture stays in constant focus all the
>| way down to the "whites of their eyes". The Steadicam keeps the
>| camera rock-solid the whole time. It really has to be seen to
>| be believed.
>
>I second this. I have seen many many autofocus mechanisms in action.
>The TR81's autofocus is the first that I'm actually happy with,
>rivaling a good Infrared focus, but working down to zero. Infinity to
>zero, rock solid, and *durn* fast at refocusing when you zip off into
>a new subject all of a sudden.
>
Which gets me to wondering...
Neither the 701 or the 801 appear to focus in the same manner as the
TR81. Now, is the TTL focusing on the 801 as piss poor as it has
proven to be on other Sony camcorders using the same system???
If so, even though the 701 doesn't have the TR81's focusing, it
should have better focus performance than the top of the line 801.
Geesh, why does Sony do this- they regress in technology as their
line improves!! I am currently seeing a similar thing while comparing
their EVS550 to the EVS800. One has some features I like and not others
and vice versa. No indexing on the 550 is a major bite in the ____ .
No real time counter on the 800- ditto! Neither one gives me what
I want!!
Wait for their new models??- No! I am too impatient!!
Signed-
A somewhat happy Sony user,
Craig
--
Craig Gruneberg***[c...@cs.psu.edu]***PennState University
Michae...@cs.cmu.edu
> Kel...@netcom.COM (4868)
> In article <cdPSAki00...@andrew.cmu.edu> cn...@andrew.cmu.edu
> (Christopher Kalevi Nuuja) writes:
> > John Rosen, in his answer to "which 8mm vcr should I buy", writes:
> >If you want excellence, get the Sony CCD-V5000.
> >Does everybody agree on this? What about the Canon L1?
> >A consumer reports article rated the Canon L1 tops in image quality,
> but I
> >don't think they rated the Sony CCD-V5000.
> To greatly summarize Jon's excellent post, he said if you want
> smallness, get
> the TR-81, if you want goodness, get the CCD-V801, if you want
> excellence, get
> the CCD-V5000. Reading that made me want to have all three!
> [... stuff about CU deleted ...]
> [...stuff about Sony CCD V5000 deleted...]
> Regards,
> Jay Keller
Now what about the new CANON UC-S1 ? Has anyone
aquired any experience with it ? It's strange that I have not seen
anything on the net concerning that one yet...
I had an opportunity to take a look at the UC-1. I didn't
really like it: the power zoom is much too slow, the menu system is
akward and the removal/insertion of a cassette just lasts forever.
If the UC-S1 behaves the same, I don't expect it to survive in
this ever-changing market.
Regards,
Michael Hemy.
Jon Rosen
>In article <1992Jan13....@iWarp.intel.com> mer...@iWarp.intel.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:
>>In article <1992Jan13.02...@locus.com>, jfr@locus (Jon Rosen) writes:
>Geesh, why does Sony do this- they regress in technology as their
>line improves!! I am currently seeing a similar thing while comparing
>their EVS550 to the EVS800. One has some features I like and not others
>and vice versa. No indexing on the 550 is a major bite in the ____ .
>No real time counter on the 800- ditto! Neither one gives me what
>I want!!
the infrared focusing of the 701 is still better than the 801 (although
some disagree) and that the 801 is better than the old V99/V101 series
(Sony has improved its regular TTL focusing quite a bit) but it still
tends to hunt and seek and takes awhile. The TR81 back lens focusing
system is unique and is very fast because the amount of movement and
the weight of the element being moved is very low. Whether Sony will
adapt this on other camcorders remains to be seen.
As to the second questions (mixed bag of features on various levels
of camcorders in the Sony line) at the editing class on Sony EVO9700
I took last summer, the Sony trainer (who was NOT employed by Sony
BTW but was under contract and so seemed more willing to divulge his
opinions even if they were not totally pro-Sony) Murray Wilson told
us that this is typical of all Japanese electronic companies. The
technologists and engineers come up with lots of features but the
marketing critters who decide what products and what features
get to market and at what price, use manufacturing and profit margin
justifications to pick a mix of features that doesn't always seem
logical. The most obvious one is that the 701 has the better infrared
focusing but no timecode vs. the 801 (TTL focusing with timecode).
His feeling was that the marketing critters don't really understand
what people NEED, but rather make the decisions based on assumptions
that don't hold up in practice. Unfortunately, this is very difficult
to change from the outside.
Jon Rosen