S-video VCR
LI...@concentric.net
We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba DSS
receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture, but
do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with TBC
circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over what we
can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which brands we should
avoid?
Please mailto:LI...@concentric.net. Thanks for any help or insight.
Cheers, Lubos
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Peter Corey
What price can you afford?
Panasonic makes (I believe) a recently introduced lowest priced model,
but the price your willing to pay might get you a better one from onr of
the mail order houses. I buy from "Computability"
Peter Corey<pc...@worldnet.att.net>
WB4LNM
I just bought the RCA VR730HF S-VHS VCR for about $460 and am very pleased
with its performance.
Michael Weber
LI...@concentric.net wrote:
>
> We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba
> DSS receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
>
> We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture,
> but do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with
> TBC circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over
> what we can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which
> brands we should avoid?
Are you looking for a S-VHS VCR with S-Video connetions or a Hi-Fi
VHS VCR with S-Video connections?
I'm not familiar with any VHS VCR's that use S-Video connections.
JVC makes two consumer grade S-VHS VCR's. I have a three year old
version of the less expensive model and it still works flawlessly.
Panasonic is marketing a low cost (about $400) S-VHS model but I don't
have any experience with this brand.
You won't find time base correction circuitry in a VCR unless you are
willing to purchase a pro model ($$$$.$$).
--
Michael Weber
m...@fast.net
M. Lerner
In article <8655330...@dejanews.com>, LI...@concentric.net wrote:
>We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba DSS
>receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
>
>We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture, but
>do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with TBC
>circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over what we
>can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which brands we should
>avoid?
>
and is a basic SVHS unit with flying erase head, Hi-Fi sound, etc. No really
advanced features but very nice for the money, plus One Call is a good company
with excellent prices and absolutely on time FedX deliveries.
Marc
Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
Well, I would recommend that you avoid JVC's S-VHS units; I own one, and
they have had (and continue to have) specific design defects. As for what
I would recommend, the RCA units seem to have a nice reputation as do the
Panasonics. If you want to look at a high-end unit ($1,100), then go look
at the Panasonic AG-1980, which is probably the best S-VHS VCR at the
pro-sumer level.
Good Luck, Lon
---------------------------
LI...@concentric.net wrote:
>
> We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba DSS
> receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
>
> We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture, but
> do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with TBC
> circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over what we
> can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which brands we should
> avoid?
>
> Please mailto:LI...@concentric.net Thanks for any help or insight.
>
> Cheers, Lubos
Matt Liggett
mle...@wco.com (M. Lerner) writes:
> I got an RCA 725HF from One Call in Spokane WA for $336. It's an
> older model and is a basic SVHS unit with flying erase head, Hi-Fi
> sound, etc. No really advanced features but very nice for the
> money, plus One Call is a good company with excellent prices and
> absolutely on time FedX deliveries.
Marc,
How is the standard VHS playback performance of this deck? I wouldn't
mind getting a single SVHS deck to replace our aging VHS decks, but
"rented movie playback" performance should beat out our
tennish-year-old Quasar 4-head (Stereo, non-HiFi).
Thanks,
--
Matt Liggett <mlig...@pobox.com> | Bloomington, IN, USA | '60 Mini
<URL:http://pobox.com/~mliggett/> | '89 SAAB 900t SPG | '70 MG Midget
The Great Cornholio
In article <3397F40A...@Microware.com>, "Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D."
<Go...@Microware.com> wrote:
> Well, I would recommend that you avoid JVC's S-VHS units; I own one, and
> they have had (and continue to have) specific design defects. As for what
> I would recommend, the RCA units seem to have a nice reputation as do the
> Panasonics. If you want to look at a high-end unit ($1,100), then go look
> at the Panasonic AG-1980, which is probably the best S-VHS VCR at the
> pro-sumer level.
RCA & Panasonic better than JVC? I don't know about Panasonic, but RCA?
Take a look at JVC models 5300 & 7300. You won't find many units better
at their prices.
Furry Pig
The low end panasonic does not have flying erase heads. And generally ...
VHS units do not have S-video inputs or outputs ... except for the Samsung
world vcr at $2000 and certain hi end Beta vcrs which you cannot get
anymore.
TBC is available I believe on the high end Panasonic vcr ... $1000 or so.
Toshiba dropped their domestic S model some time ago. They likely still
have one for their Japanese market.
Regards
Michael @ TLV Experience
Michael Weber <m...@fast.net> wrote in article <339750...@fast.net>...
> LI...@concentric.net wrote:
> >
> > We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba
> > DSS receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
> >
> > We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture,
> > but do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with
> > TBC circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over
> > what we can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which
> > brands we should avoid?
>
Michael
WB4LNM wrote in article <19970605225...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Well I just bought a Panasonic PV-S7670 S-VHS VCR for $380 and am very
pleased with it.
If anyones interested I may do a full review soon.
Lisa Menin
I bought a Panasonic 4670 S-VHS vcr (prior model to the 7670) for $385
about 5-6 months ago and am also very pleased with it. It has excellent
picture quality and is simple to use. Highly recommended.
J. Newark
I have Hitatchi S VHS VCR. It works great. Their products have lasted
the longest in
our household. (2) VCRs, 31 inch TV.
My .02 cents worth.
JIM
LI...@concentric.net wrote in article <8655330...@dejanews.com>...
> We plan to buy a reliable S-video VHS VCR to be used with our Toshiba DSS
> receiver. It seems that Toshiba does not make any S-video VCRs.
>
> We would like a flying erase head and high-quality sound and picture, but
> do not need sophisticated timers, editing features etc. A VCR with TBC
> circuitry would be great - but probably would push the price over what we
> can afford. Which specific VCR would you recommend? Which brands we
should
> avoid?
>
> Please mailto:LI...@concentric.net. Thanks for any help or insight.
>
> Cheers, Lubos
>
Joseph Lee
The Great Cornholio (no....@prism.gatech.edu) wrote:
: RCA & Panasonic better than JVC? I don't know about Panasonic, but RCA?
: at their prices.
The RCAs are really Panasonics but repackaged. JVCs have had a record of
having lemons in a noticeable percentage of the vcrs purchased (from the
reports in this newsgroup). Problems of white-streaking, static audio pops,
reliability, etc. For about the same price, other brands provide equivalent
quality without the betting.
--
Joseph nugu...@netcom.com /===\=IIGS=/===\=Playstation=/===\=Civic HX=/===\
# Anime Expo 1997 @ Los Angeles >> www.anime-expo.org/ >
# Cal-Animage Epsilon >> www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/lbolante/cae.html >
# Kronos Digital Entertainment >> www.kronosdigital.com/ /
Trevor T and the Wilters
no....@prism.gatech.edu (The Great Cornholio) wrote:
>In article <3397F40A...@Microware.com>, "Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D."
><Go...@Microware.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, I would recommend that you avoid JVC's S-VHS units; I own one, and
>> they have had (and continue to have) specific design defects. As for what
>> I would recommend, the RCA units seem to have a nice reputation as do the
>> Panasonics. If you want to look at a high-end unit ($1,100), then go look
>> at the Panasonic AG-1980, which is probably the best S-VHS VCR at the
>> pro-sumer level.
>
>RCA & Panasonic better than JVC? I don't know about Panasonic, but RCA?
>Take a look at JVC models 5300 & 7300. You won't find many units better
>at their prices.
I've got a JVC, the 6900, and I'd have to say "stay away from them."
Both of my 6900's can not play hi-fi recording made on other brands of
hi-fi vcrs. This is VERY annoying. I've heard of other owners
complaining of this problem. have also heard that this is due to a
quirky deign feature of JVC, something about the head alignment, but
don't quote me on that.
Trevor
***tr...@tiac.net***
Denny J. Basham
Trevor T and the Wilters <tr...@see.sig.for.address> wrote in article
<339b3bad...@news.tiac.net>...
I also own a 7300 and I have nothing but GOOD things to say about it so
far. As long as you keep the heads clean there should be no problems. The
video and audio on rental tapes is great and recording on SVHS even off of
cable is very good even at EP speeds. I have not noticed any problems with
the heads so I guess I got one of the "GOOD" units. I also think that both
the 7300 and 5300 are great values ($599 for the 7300 at Computability)
esp. if you plan to do video editing. The backlit remote and jog/shuttle
are cool also.
BTW, I have had my player for over 2 months and still haven't seen any
streaks. Oh, it also plays hi-fi just fine unless your heads are
misaligned or something (you might want to get that checked Trev). The
"reported" problem on this news group (which seems to have been corrected)
had to do with the way the wires going to the heads were grounded I think.
This was supposedly a design flaw that introduced electrical noise during
playback.
--Denny
bob...@worldnet.att.net
Nope- it hasn't been corrected.
I just dumped a JVC HR-S9400, their new high-end model because it
developed a nasty case of the infamous JVC "white streaks" (or
"sparkles" if you prefer) after a few weeks use.
I'd seen the same problem in 4 HR-S6900s, but the 9400 was much worse,
so I guess you could say they've "improved" it <g>.
On the other hand, I had used a 7100 for about a year with no problems,
so apparently some have it and others don't.
In my expereience, it always started within the first month, so you're
probably safe - unless you haven't put enough hrs on it.
Jim Davidson
In article <01bc742a$e4cb2be0$a101...@dbasham-ppp.clark.net> "Denny
J. Basham" <**d**basham@cl**ark.net**> writes:
> I also own a 7300 and I have nothing but GOOD things to say about it so
> far. As long as you keep the heads clean there should be no problems. The
> video and audio on rental tapes is great and recording on SVHS even off of
> cable is very good even at EP speeds. I have not noticed any problems with
> the heads so I guess I got one of the "GOOD" units. I also think that both
> the 7300 and 5300 are great values ($599 for the 7300 at Computability)
> esp. if you plan to do video editing. The backlit remote and jog/shuttle
> are cool also.
>
> BTW, I have had my player for over 2 months and still haven't seen any
> streaks. Oh, it also plays hi-fi just fine unless your heads are
> misaligned or something (you might want to get that checked Trev). The
> "reported" problem on this news group (which seems to have been corrected)
> had to do with the way the wires going to the heads were grounded I think.
> This was supposedly a design flaw that introduced electrical noise during
> playback.
I also have a 7300, and like the above poster I've been very happy with it.
I've had it about 8 months, with no problems. Picture quality is excellent,
especially for the money.
There have been reports of problems, but so far mine has performed flawlessly.
Note that I never rent tapes (I rent LD's instead), so the 7300 is used
exclusively to play back tapes that have been recorded on it.
-Jim
Lubos&Irene Palounek
Michael,
thanks to you (and all others) for interesting and valuable input. You
write:
> Are you looking for a S-VHS VCR with S-Video connetions or a Hi-Fi
> VHS VCR with S-Video connections?
I do not fully understand the question. An S-VHS VCR by definition hes
S-video connection, correct? And it also has the Hi-Fi capability. An
Hi-Fi VCR which has S-video connections (for both input and output) is
also an S-Video VCR, isn't it?
In my understanding, the S-video designation is related to video (the Y
= luminance and C = chrominance are separated), while the HiFi
designation is related to audio. You could theoretically design an
S-video machine with only the linear audio track, couldn't you? Nobody
would probably buy it -- but it could be built.
To answer your question: we are looking for an S-video VHS machine with
the "HiFi" audio. (We already have an S-video 8mm VCR (or Hi8 VCR), but
that is used strictly for editing.)
Regards, Lubos
Paul Gibson
Lubos&Irene Palounek <LI...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Michael,
>
>thanks to you (and all others) for interesting and valuable input. You
>write:
>
>> Are you looking for a S-VHS VCR with S-Video connetions or a Hi-Fi
>> VHS VCR with S-Video connections?
>
>I do not fully understand the question. An S-VHS VCR by definition hes
>S-video connection, correct? And it also has the Hi-Fi capability. An
>Hi-Fi VCR which has S-video connections (for both input and output) is
>also an S-Video VCR, isn't it?
I don't think an S-VHS VCR has S-video and Hi-Fi "by definition", but
it'd be pretty stupid for a company to sell a VCR with S-Video and
Hi-Fi (kind of like selling a car with no tires); nobody would buy
one. And although it would be possible to build a non-S-VHS VCR with
S-Video, I'm not sure any company does. Normal VHS can't take as much
advantage of the higher quality of S-Video as S-VHS can. For people
who want the higher quality of S-video, they probably also want S-VHS
(I certainly did). If you want an S-Video jack on your VCR, why not
buy an S-VHS VCR? You'll get all of the benefits of a VHS VCR, but you
can record at higher quality if you want to, and even normal VHS tapes
will probably look better. And of course, it will have an S-Video
jack.
>To answer your question: we are looking for an S-video VHS machine with
>the "HiFi" audio. (We already have an S-video 8mm VCR (or Hi8 VCR), but
>that is used strictly for editing.)
I wouldn't even try to find a VHS machine with S-Video--go straight to
S-VHS. BTW, 8mm and Hi8 are not the same; it's like the difference
between VHS and S-VHS. I believe there are 8mm VCR's with S-Video.
>
>Regards, Lubos
----------
Paul Gibson
Paul....@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~pgibson/peru
-----
Our cause is a secret within a secret, a secret that
only another secret can explain; it is a secret about
a secret that is veiled by a secret.
--Ja `far as-Sadiq, sixth Imam
Marc42
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:06:08 GMT, pgi...@mindspring.com (Paul Gibson)
wrote:
>Lubos&Irene Palounek <LI...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>
>I don't think an S-VHS VCR has S-video and Hi-Fi "by definition"
Uh, yes it does. They are both part of the format. S-Video was NAMED
for Super-VHS...other formats picked it up later.
> And although it would be possible to build a non-S-VHS VCR with
>S-Video, I'm not sure any company does.
That's because it's NOT possible. Well, it's possible, but it would
have to include a converter to turn the S-vid signal back into a
composite signal- which would result in a worse picture than plugging
composite video straight across.
S-VHS (and Hi-8) are COMPLETELY different from VHS (and 8mm). They
record the luma and chroma separately- which is why you want to use
the s-vid jack whenever possible.
In fact, even laserdisc players don't actually take advantage of
s-video connectors, even though they are usually included. They
convert the composite signal into a separated s-video signal- which is
what your TV does anyway. If you have a top of the line TV and a cheap
LD player, you can actually get a WORSE picture using the s-video
jack. (I can back this up with some quotes if anyone's interested.)
>
>>To answer your question: we are looking for an S-video VHS machine with
>>the "HiFi" audio. (We already have an S-video 8mm VCR (or Hi8 VCR), but
>>that is used strictly for editing.)
Look above- you will never find one because it's pointless. To repeat-
VHS doesn't know what to do with an S-video signal. You will only find
S-video on S-VHS machines. BTW...these machines WILL record in regular
VHS format too, if that's what you are concerned about. But the s-vid
jack will do little, if anything, to improve a standard VHS picture.
>
>I wouldn't even try to find a VHS machine with S-Video--go straight to
>S-VHS. BTW, 8mm and Hi8 are not the same; it's like the difference
>between VHS and S-VHS. I believe there are 8mm VCR's with S-Video.
>
That's all correct, except for the last sentence. 8mm VCRs are just
like VHS- they can't use a s-video signal.
Note that soon, we will have Componant Video jacks, which breaks the
color signal down to 2 separate signals. Supposedly, DSS is a native
Componant Video format, but jacks haven't been included because the
first Componant Video TV just hit the streets.
So...here's a list of products and their native formats. (That is to
say, the format they use best.)
VHS- Composite (single RCA jack)
8mm- Composite
SVHS- S-Video (4 pin plug)
Hi8- S-Video
DVD- Componant (3 separate RCA jacks)
DSS- Componant (but for now we have to use S-Video)
Laser Disc- Composite (but most people should use S-Video anyway. Test
both to see which works best for you.)
;p
Marc
The keys to Marc42's Gate are here again
http://www.azaccess.com/~marc42
-----------------------------------------
"Let's face it...there's nothing more fun than
shaving...and there's nothing more ironic than
shaving a baby...and if there's one thing kids
love, it's irony!"
- Johnny Bluejeans & The former Mrs Laupan
-----------------------------------------
E-Mail: mar...@azaccess.com
Jim St. John
Lubos&Irene Palounek wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> thanks to you (and all others) for interesting and valuable input. You
> write:
>
> > Are you looking for a S-VHS VCR with S-Video connetions or a Hi-Fi
> > VHS VCR with S-Video connections?
>
> I do not fully understand the question. An S-VHS VCR by definition hes
> S-video connection, correct? And it also has the Hi-Fi capability. An
> Hi-Fi VCR which has S-video connections (for both input and output) is
> also an S-Video VCR, isn't it?
S-VHS refers to the bandwidth of the system. S-video refers to the
video input/output signal format and connector type.
So yes, you could have a non S-VHS vcr that did have s-video in and out.
And at least in theory you could have an S-VHS machine that did not have
S-video in and out.
The benefit of using the S-video connection is primarily apparent with
relatively high bandwidth sources and even then it really only makes
sense when the component in question is internally dealing with separate
chrominance and luminance signals.
S-video makes sense on VCRs, even standard VHS, especially when dubbing
tapes, because VCRs record chrominance and luminance as separate
signals.
S-video does not make sense, at least in terms of yielding a 'better'
picture, on devices such as LD players or non-digital satellite
receivers, since these devices deal only with composite (combined chroma
and luminance) video signals.
S video may be handy on those devices, but it won't produce a 'better'
picture, unless the Y/C separator in the device is better than the one
in your TV.
> In my understanding, the S-video designation is related to video (the Y
> = luminance and C = chrominance are separated), while the HiFi
> designation is related to audio. You could theoretically design an
> S-video machine with only the linear audio track, couldn't you? Nobody
> would probably buy it -- but it could be built.
Correct re the audio, but again, ALL VCRs record and playback Y and C
separately, but those without S-video outputs recombine the output
signal, and separate the input signal. S-VHS (or it's counterpart Hi-8)
are the methods for increasing bandwidth, or lines of resolution.
-jim-
David Vlack
<snip> About s-vhs and s-video
Jim St. John <j...@su1.in.net> wrote in article
<339E1B...@su1.in.net>...
> Lubos&Irene Palounek wrote:
> >
> signal, and separate the input signal. S-VHS (or it's counterpart Hi-8)
> are the methods for increasing bandwidth, or lines of resolution.
>
> -jim-
Why is it that on some (all) S-VHS machines, the chroma is displaced one
line down on each field on playback? This can get really noticeable when
several generations of recording are involved.
Dave
ul...@lnt.lv
Long long ago, in a galaxy far far away, in one of those
Video magazines was an article describing the problem well-
it said that S-video has nothing to do with recording itself, but
it's better to read this as "Separate video", describing how the signal
is delivered, and S-VHS, VHS, 8, Hi8, Beta etc. etc. stands
for format of signal on tape and tape itself.
BTW I've seen a lot of VCR's with S-video outputs, incl.
Betacam SP, DVC-Pro, and none ordinary VHS machine with such connectors.
>
>I wouldn't even try to find a VHS machine with S-Video--go straight to
>S-VHS. BTW, 8mm and Hi8 are not the same; it's like the difference
>between VHS and S-VHS. I believe there are 8mm VCR's with S-Video.
--
|------Uldis Lavrinovics-----|
|--------------------------------|
|------...@lnt.lv----------------|
|----------------------------------------|
|-Master in Self-defense against Fresh Fruit-|
Gray Jones
look.in.m...@if.you.have.something.to.say (Marc42) writes:
> Uh, yes it does. They are both part of the format. S-Video was NAMED
> for Super-VHS...other formats picked it up later.
Bzzzt! Thank you for playing.
S-Video means "separated video." The light and color information are
separated.
S-VHS does not mean separated VHS.
Regular VHS tapes are recorded with the color and light information
separate, but at a lower resolution than S-VHS.
Mitsubishi makes a VHS VCR with an S-Video out, but it is more
expensive than many S-VHS VCRs.
> > And although it would be possible to build a non-S-VHS VCR with
> >S-Video, I'm not sure any company does.
>
Marketing. That's why they don't include S-Video on VHS VCRs or
include good comb filters on 20" TVs. If that hardware is important
to you, you must upgrade.
> That's because it's NOT possible. Well, it's possible, but it would
> have to include a converter to turn the S-vid signal back into a
> composite signal-
That's exactly what a normal VHS player does. I'm not sure you are
saying what you meant to be saying.
> which would result in a worse picture than plugging
> composite video straight across.
Ok, you've lost me here.
>
> S-VHS (and Hi-8) are COMPLETELY different from VHS (and 8mm). They
> record the luma and chroma separately- which is why you want to use
> the s-vid jack whenever possible.
>
They are better, but not really that different.
> In fact, even laserdisc players don't actually take advantage of
> s-video connectors, even though they are usually included. They
> convert the composite signal into a separated s-video signal- which is
> what your TV does anyway. If you have a top of the line TV and a cheap
> LD player, you can actually get a WORSE picture using the s-video
> jack. (I can back this up with some quotes if anyone's interested.)
>
At least he is right about this. Laser Discs are recorded with
composite video. If your LD player has a better comb filter than your
TV, use the S-Video jack on your LD. If your TV has a better comb
filter than your LD, use the composite jack.
> Look above- you will never find one because it's pointless. To repeat-
> VHS doesn't know what to do with an S-video signal. You will only find
> S-video on S-VHS machines. BTW...these machines WILL record in regular
> VHS format too, if that's what you are concerned about. But the s-vid
> jack will do little, if anything, to improve a standard VHS picture.
Maybe if you say it over and over, it will some how come true.
> That's all correct, except for the last sentence. 8mm VCRs are just
> like VHS- they can't use a s-video signal.
Bzzt!
>
> Note that soon, we will have Componant Video jacks, which breaks the
> color signal down to 2 separate signals. Supposedly, DSS is a native
> Componant Video format, but jacks haven't been included because the
> first Componant Video TV just hit the streets.
>
> So...here's a list of products and their native formats. (That is to
> say, the format they use best.)
>
> VHS- Composite (single RCA jack)
> 8mm- Composite
These tapes are recorded with the video separated. However, only the
very high end players offer separated video. The best solution is to
move up to the better format, if you have the extra money to spend.
> SVHS- S-Video (4 pin plug)
> Hi8- S-Video
Hey look! He got something right.
> DVD- Componant (3 separate RCA jacks)
> DSS- Componant (but for now we have to use S-Video)
That's spelled componEnt.
> Laser Disc- Composite (but most people should use S-Video anyway. Test
> both to see which works best for you.)
--gray
--
Gray Jones 11440 Commerce Park Drive
Software Engineer Reston, VA 22091
Visix Software (703) 758-8230 (voice)
gr...@visix.com (703) 758-0233 (fax)
Ben Rogall
Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
> That's not true. Normal VHS VCR records the croma and luma
> separately same way as S-VHS and Hi-8. Luma is recorded
> using FM modulation and croma is recorded using "color under"
> techique (the color subcarrier frequency is modulated down
> and stored below FM subcarrier frequency range on the tape).
> Take almost any VCR technology book and you can read this fact
> from it.
>
> Some links to VCR technology:
> http://www.magnavox.com/electreference/videohandbook/vcrs.html
> http://www.servtech.com/public/lionlamb/theory.html
>
Yep. There are also some nice reviews of Y/C and composite signals and comb filters at
www.cybertheater.com.
Ben
kanaris
In article <01bc7663$971aff20$0100...@cptvdeo.inil.com>,
David Vlack <cpt...@inil.com> wrote:
>
>Why is it that on some (all) S-VHS machines, the chroma is displaced one
>line down on each field on playback?
Because they have been designed this way.
>This can get really noticeable when
>several generations of recording are involved.
>
>Dave
It will not be noticeable if you turn "EDIT MODE" ON.
Assuming your VCR has such a feature of course.
<<alex kanaris>>
==============================================================================
Alexander Kanaris ___ ___ kan...@bode.usc.edu
Electrical Engineering --- Systems / / /__ / kan...@thales.usc.edu
University of Southern California /__/ ___/ /__ kan...@aludra.usc.edu
Los Angeles, California 90089-2562 kan...@alumni.caltech.edu
==============================================================================
ric...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: What is all of this slamming of certain vcr manufacturers about?
: Fact of the matter is...ALL manufacturers are now producing
: inferior models for the consumer. In consumer vcr manufacturing, I'm
: sure that any reasonably well informed videophile will tell you that the
: vcrs these days are not designed to last...and that is an absolute fact!
: The emphasis is not on quality anymore. It is on providing the consumer
: with a machine that works satisfactorily right up to the expiry date of
: the warranty. It's unfortunate, but this order seems to be the unwritten
: rule that applys to just about everything.
: The mid 80's to the very early 90's were the bestof times to buy a high
: end vcr. All manufacturers made decent, durable, reliable machines that
: were built to last! Such examples were:
: JVC HRS-10000
: MITSUBISHI U-80 and the U-82
: NEC DS 8000
: PANASONIC PV-S4990 and the AG-1950
: RCA VR695
: TOSHIBA SV-F990 and the SV-F970
: SONY'S SLHF-750,900,1000 and the entire ED beta line.
: Your best bet is to find any of these (if the owners are
: willing to part with them).
:* One note on t.v's.*
: Panasonic is now producing their high end Gaoos in Mexico.
: According to my resources, ie: (Future Shops of Canada) Matsushita no
: longer assembles their televisions in Canada as of 2 years ago. Word in
: the insurance department has it that the quality of these sets has since
: deteriorated and warranty claims are on the rise.
: I think that we as consumers should boycott the whole damn industry in
: an effort to maintain the standards that once were. Somebody is cutting
: corners and laughing all the way to the bank...and that is a shame.
: (My $0.02 worth)
David DeYoung
S-video makes sense on VCRs, even standard VHS, especially when dubbing
tapes, because VCRs record chrominance and luminance as separate
signals.
S-video does not make sense, at least in terms of yielding a 'better'
picture, on devices such as LD players or non-digital satellite
receivers, since these devices deal only with composite (combined
chroma
and luminance) video signals.
S video may be handy on those devices, but it won't produce a 'better'
picture, unless the Y/C separator in the device is better than the one
in your TV.
Are you sure about this? My CBand satellite receiver has both
composite and SVideo output, and the SVideo gives a better picture! It
isn't blow-your-socks-off, but it's definitely better.
>
Josh M. Osborne
In article <339db30a...@baygull.rtd.com>,
Marc42 <look.in.m...@if.you.have.something.to.say> wrote:
[...]
>Note that soon, we will have Componant Video jacks, which breaks the
>color signal down to 2 separate signals. Supposedly, DSS is a native
>Componant Video format, but jacks haven't been included because the
>first Componant Video TV just hit the streets.
I'm not sure DSS mandates that the data being sent from the
satalites is MPEG2. As far as I know that is what all the
DSS componies use (but in thery they could switch to some
other compresion system that isn't "Componant Video").
MPEG does operate on the Y, Cb, and Cr componants seperatly. The
Cb and Cr components are subsamples (3 out of every four pixel
values are thrown away -- or I would assume more commonaly every
four pixels are avraged into a single value), and the Y is operated
on "full size". Then a whole bunch of other stuff is done that
requires math symbols that one can't type on Usenet. :-)
(the "other stuff" includes many opertunities for encoder-time/space
tradeoffs, as well as the stright quality/space tradeoffs; I don't
beleve that the decoded really has any choices that effect the
quality of the video (unless you count doing things that are
non-complient, like dropping P frames))
>So...here's a list of products and their native formats. (That is to
>say, the format they use best.)
[...]
>DVD- Componant (3 separate RCA jacks)
>DSS- Componant (but for now we have to use S-Video)
[...]
Well I would say they use a nice digial output "best", but that is
just because I'm obsessed with getting video images into computers
with as little loss as possable. For recording DVD or DSS originated
video having a stright digital output would definitly be the best
choice (one less set of analog steps to distort the signal, and
the data would be much lower rate -- asuming you just feed out the
MPEG2 stream). Unfortunitly that is why I susspect a digital output
will be a long time in coming. At least a useful one.
Andy Cuffe
I couldn't agree more! I own a JVC HR-S5000U (soon to be two), 2 SONY
SL-HF750s, an NEC DX-5000U, and several other good VCR from the same
generation. Every year VCRs get more flimsy and have less features. My
newest VCR is a JVC HR-S5000U from 1988 which uses JVC's last good tape
transport. I just made a deal to buy an other used HR-S5000U which will
cost me less than half what a new one would cost; it has more features
than any new VCR and will long outlive a new one. For not much more
money they could easily produce VCRs as good as the old ones, but they
would rather you have to replace them every few years. I repair VCRs as
a hobby and I always sell the newer VCRs and keep the older ones because
they are so much better. I have heard rumors that the new Sony VCRs use
Funai tape transports (Funai makes such prestigious brands an Symphonic,
XR-1000, and Shintom). Can anyone tell me if this is true? Do
professional VCRs use better tape transports than consumer VCRs?
I also agree about the quality of TVs going down. On
sci.electronics.repair I see loads of questions about recent Sonys but
very few about the old ones. Zenith TVs made since about 1990 have CRTs
that only last about 2 or 3 years. I also don't like needing the remote
to do everything on new TVs and VCRs. My 1985 Sony KV-1981R has a
control for everything right on the front of the TV, what an idea. I
have noticed that new TVs are very susceptible to power surges. More
than half the TVs made after 1990 I see have significant damage (read
totally destroyed) caused by power surges, but I rarely see ones made
before about 1987 with more than minor damage.
I dread the day when I have to replae all my good electronics with
garbage when HDTV comes out. I want HDTV, but I don't want junk, which
is all you can get without spending thousands of dollars on professional
equipment.
--
Andy Cuffe
balt...@psu.edu
pol...@hg.uleth.ca
In article <lajiuzl...@tinasolttu.cs.hut.fi>, Tomi Holger Engdahl <then@ti
nasolttu.cs.hut.fi> writes:
>Normal VHS could use S-video connectors and implementing them to
>it would not be technically too complicated. Putting them to it
>has no sense bacuse they would not provide any benefit in picture
>quality because luma and croma frequencies in the signal from VHS
>tape do not overlap.
The problem with this statement is that there is even *more* "space"
between chroma and luma on S-VHS tape than there is on VHS, both in PAL and
NTSC. Indeed, there is often some marginal overlap between luma and chroma
in the recorded frequency spectra of both PAL and NTSC VHS.
SKI333
Don't blame the manufacturers entirely. I own a vcr and camcorder repair
shop and have been in the repair business for thirty years. Many
customers who bring in very good vcrs mostly made in the late 1980's and
early 90's warn me right up front "you know I can buy a brand new vcr
for $130". Meaning do it cheap or else. this is the kind of mentallity
that causes manufacturers to make JUNK. However,I am thankful for the
many customers I have done service for over the years, people such as
the ones on this newsgroup, that know the difference between a good vcr
and a CHEAP vcr. Thanks to all, I had to get that off my chest!
Bill Schackart CET. A Video Service Co. Santa Maria Ca.
Paul W. Henne
ric...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (ric...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) wrote:
|:* One note on t.v's.*
|: Panasonic is now producing their high end Gaoos in Mexico.
|: According to my resources, ie: (Future Shops of Canada) Matsushita no
|: longer assembles their televisions in Canada as of 2 years ago. Word in
|: the insurance department has it that the quality of these sets has since
|: deteriorated and warranty claims are on the rise.
I can vouch for this. I had to return one 1996 model GAOO (convergence
problems) before I got a good one. This 2nd set is still ok, but the
remote control has now started to malfunction, and it's barely a year old.
I mainly use a universal, but I'm tempted to have the Panasonic remote
replaced under warranty to try to send a message. I've also seen an
uncomfortably high number of posts in rec.video about out of box defects
(mainly geometry and convergence) with the Panasonics. I have come down
hard on Sony for this very same problem in the past, and now I'm no longer
comfortable recommending Panasonics for the same reason.
|: I think that we as consumers should boycott the whole damn industry in
|: an effort to maintain the standards that once were. Somebody is cutting
|: corners and laughing all the way to the bank...and that is a shame.
IMO, the best way to fight this is not to give up. If you buy a problem
set, return it as many times as you need to until you get a good sample
(just make sure your retailer sees the problems so they are on your side).
Sure, you can give up and try a different manufacturer, but that doesn't
solve the problem. Besides, you may just end up with a different set of
problems. I get the feeling all of the manufacturers are having problems
like this.
Manufacturers are counting on consumers to give up. However if they have
to pay enough warranty claims their insurance will go up, and they will no
longer be saving any money by cheaping out. They will eventually have to
do something about it.
Just my 2 cents.
Paul
--
------- Paul W. Henne <p...@clark.net-no.soliciting> -------
"Good judgement comes from experience; and experience, well,
that comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous
--> E-mail replies: Remove "-no.soliciting" from my address
------------------------------------------------------------
Marc42
On Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:02:43 GMT, kro...@ecf.toronto.edu (Andy
Kromkamp) wrote:
>Youve got it backwards - it would turn a composite signal to s-video.
>Such a device is called a Comb Filter. Its not inconceivable that a
>company could built a VHS vcr with a stellar 3d digital comb filter on
>it and then provide s-video jacks, just not very cost effective :-)
>
Yeah...I know I'm an idiot...we already went over that :)
>
>Nowadays I think its safe to say (at least with Pioneer) that the Comb
>Filters in the players are better than your TV's comb filter.
>
In most cases,yes. But when Video magazine ran some head to head
comparisons between DVD and LD, they found that the picture was better
with the composite jack...even on a top of the line Pioneer. Of
course, they were using a brand new Toshiba widescreen with componant
inputs. For the other 99.8% of us, the s-video jack on an LD is going
to be better.
Marc42
On 11 Jun 1997 21:20:53 -0700, kan...@aludra.usc.edu (kanaris) wrote:
>In article <01bc7663$971aff20$0100...@cptvdeo.inil.com>,
>David Vlack <cpt...@inil.com> wrote:
>>
>>Why is it that on some (all) S-VHS machines, the chroma is displaced one
>>line down on each field on playback?
>
>Because they have been designed this way.
>
>>This can get really noticeable when
>>several generations of recording are involved.
>>
>>Dave
>
>It will not be noticeable if you turn "EDIT MODE" ON.
>Assuming your VCR has such a feature of course.
>
Hey...my VCR has a "edit mode on" setting! (It's a Mitsubishi from
'92) I always wondered what it did. I can't tell the difference
myself.
MICHAEL NEIDICH
I heard that by turning composite into component, there is one more
conversion that does more harm than good.
Mike
nos...@ix.netcom.com
Paul W. Henne wrote:
>
> IMO, the best way to fight this is not to give up. If you buy a problem
> set, return it as many times as you need to until you get a good sample
> (just make sure your retailer sees the problems so they are on your side).
> Sure, you can give up and try a different manufacturer, but that doesn't
> solve the problem. Besides, you may just end up with a different set of
> problems. I get the feeling all of the manufacturers are having problems
> like this.
>
> Manufacturers are counting on consumers to give up. However if they have
> to pay enough warranty claims their insurance will go up, and they will no
> longer be saving any money by cheaping out. They will eventually have to
> do something about it.
Yeah, right. These manufacturers are selling to millions of people.
Though I would immediately be for something like this, how do you
suppose you (or anyone else) are/is going to get enough people to
join in on this cause? Ask the majority of people what they think
about their video equipment and they'll tell you they are satisfied.
Point out any of the defects you and others who care about video
quality are concerned about, and they'll tell you that they either
don't care, that it's "not that bad", or won't even notice it to
begin with. I'm not trying to be a defeatist here, but when only
1 out of 100 people care about the quality of what they're watching,
there isn't one thing you can do about changing the non-stop quality
drop in video equipment. It's just going to keep getting worse and
worse until it's finally so bad the average tubejockey protests. But
by that time, no one in "our category" will still be watching the TV,
and still, the manufacturers might only respond by raising the quality
one notch above what caused a noticeable reaction from buyers. Then
it'll stay there, of course, until people get dumber and they can
lower it even more! ;-)
Anyway, my point is, all the "good stuff" we used to have was part of
the past, and it isn't going to come back. Most people don't care
about quality. They care about what they're told is quality (i.e.
everyone buying DSS over BUD because they hear "digital over analog';
yet with MPEG, it's so bad that you might as well try picking up the
C-band transponders with a pair of butter knives.)
Marc42
On 14 Jun 1997 04:45:16 GMT, "MICHAEL NEIDICH"
<NEI...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
You've got it backwards. When you plug a composite cable (like from a
regular VCR) into your TV, the TV breaks it down into separated video
(like an s-video jack), then breaks that color signal into a color
difference signal (which is what componant video is), and then down
into RGB- which is what the picture tube understands.
DVD and DSS start out with a componant signal. (DSS doesn't offer a
way to use it yet, though.) When you use the composite jack, the
reciever or player builds the signal back up into a composite signal,
sends it to the TV, and then the TV breaks it back down. That's where
the harm comes in.
THE MORE SEPARATED THE SIGNAL IS TO START...THE BETTER! The only
exception, as several of us have mentioned, is Laser Disc. However,
that exception only applies to 1% of us, and those people know who
they are.
Videone
I have used JVC's and the quality seems to have gone down hill in a
hurry. White streaks (sparkles) and problems with the Hi-Fi sound. I now
use Panasonic 1980's and have not found a problem to date (I do wish they
would lose the tuner and lower the price).
SYSTEM MANAGER
> >In article <01bc7663$971aff20$0100...@cptvdeo.inil.com>,
> >David Vlack <cpt...@inil.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>Why is it that on some (all) S-VHS machines, the chroma is displaced one
> >>line down on each field on playback?
> >
> >Because they have been designed this way.
Is it true that S-VHS also shifts chroma down a line? (I knew that this was
the case with ordinary VHS, but thought that S-VHS handled color encoding
differently so that this was not a problem.)
Can anyone confirm or deny the 1-line-shift in S-VHS? I was thinking of
jumping from Beta to S-VHS, but didn't know that the shift existed in S-VHS as
well as regular VHS.
Also - my "HQ" VHS machine tends to show dark shadows/streaks next to bright
objects in the picture (such as credits, streetlights, headlights, etc.). This
machine is fairly old. Do newer machines (S-VHS in particular) still do this?
I'm cosidering Sony 960 or R1000.
Dave Kelley
kel...@uhavax.hartford.edu
Jarrod Smith
SYSTEM MANAGER wrote:
>
> Also - my "HQ" VHS machine tends to show dark shadows/streaks next to bright
> objects in the picture (such as credits, streetlights, headlights, etc.). This
> machine is fairly old. Do newer machines (S-VHS in particular) still do this?
> I'm cosidering Sony 960 or R1000.
I have a one year old Mitsubishi HSU-510 Hi-Fi VHS and it does this. My
7 year old RCA model 565 Hi-Fi VHS never did, and neither does my dad's
new Toshiba 782. Go figure.
> Dave Kelley
> kel...@uhavax.hartford.edu
--
Jarrod Smith <jsm...@scripps.edu>
The Scripps Research Institute
http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith
Brent Best
grainier and grainier. A own an AG1980, to, but I bought it because it was the
best SVHS machine available that can still be used as a "home" VCR - the
tuner and multievent timer are neccessities for time shifting. (Of course,
you could still record broadcast TV signals on a tunerless VCR - just use
the tuner section of another VCR, maybe an old one with junked mechanicals.)
However, myself and a few other AG1980 owners on the net have reported the
"F3" problem. Very occasionally, I've come home after the VCR has time-shifted
a program to see the characters "F3" on the front panel. Either turning the
power off and on again, or sometimes unplugging the unit, clears this error
message. The VCR can also shut down and display F3 if the jog shuttle is used
too agressively.
Marc42
On 11 Jun 1997 17:14:59 +0300, Tomi Holger Engdahl
<th...@tinasolttu.cs.hut.fi> wrote:
>Converting S-video to composite video only involves summing
>the Y and C components together.
-buncha tech stuff snipped-
Can we stop explaining this over and over? The matter has been cleared
up, and I already admited that I'm an idiot. Stop rubbing it in :)
Pixellator
One solution which was once out of the question is the extended warranty.
I bought a five year warranty on my JVC 7100, and sure enough, after two
years of limited use it's eating tapes. The $69 spent on the warranty from
New West electronics may be the best $69 I ever spent, especially if this
thing has more problems! Of course, some less than reputable companies
charge $200 for the same warranty.
Pixellator @ AOL.COM
Stephen M. Smith
On 11 Jun 1997 10:53:38 -0400, Gray Jones <gr...@visix.com> wrote:
>look.in.m...@if.you.have.something.to.say (Marc42) writes:
>At least he is right about this. Laser Discs are recorded with
>composite video. If your LD player has a better comb filter than your
>TV, use the S-Video jack on your LD. If your TV has a better comb
>filter than your LD, use the composite jack.
>
>--gray
>
>--
>Gray Jones 11440 Commerce Park Drive
>Software Engineer Reston, VA 22091
>Visix Software (703) 758-8230 (voice)
>gr...@visix.com (703) 758-0233 (fax)
OK, you sound like you can answer this question for me...
I just added a S-VHS VCR to my setup which includes a LD player and a
TV with only one S-Video input. The LD player has a better comb
filter than my TV so it was connected via the S-Video input. And if
the all JVC marketing propaganda is to be believed, then the S-VHS VCR
most likely has a better comb filter than the LD.
Now the VCR has to have that S-Video input. I want to record LD's on
S-VHS so I have to connect the LD to the VCR. Given that LD video is
stored in composite format, should I use a composite or S-Video cable
from it to the VCR? If I use a composite cable, am I effectively
using the VCR's comb filter for the LD's output?
Thanks,
Steve
Louis A. Carliner
smi...@sprynet.com (Stephen M. Smith) wrote:
>On 11 Jun 1997 10:53:38 -0400, Gray Jones <gr...@visix.com> wrote:
>
>>look.in.m...@if.you.have.something.to.say (Marc42) writes:
>>At least he is right about this. Laser Discs are recorded with
>>composite video. If your LD player has a better comb filter than your
>>TV, use the S-Video jack on your LD. If your TV has a better comb
>>filter than your LD, use the composite jack.
>>
>>--gray
>>
>>--
>>Gray Jones 11440 Commerce Park Drive
>>Software Engineer Reston, VA 22091
>>Visix Software (703) 758-8230 (voice)
>>gr...@visix.com (703) 758-0233 (fax)
>
>OK, you sound like you can answer this question for me...
>
>I just added a S-VHS VCR to my setup which includes a LD player and a
>TV with only one S-Video input. The LD player has a better comb
>filter than my TV so it was connected via the S-Video input. And if
>the all JVC marketing propaganda is to be believed, then the S-VHS VCR
>most likely has a better comb filter than the LD.
Then you want to use the composite output from your laser disk player
into the VCR. If your laser disk has y/c ouputs, it will depend on the
model which has a better comb filter, the JVC or the player. You will
have to make some test comparative recordings to see if which has the
better comb filter. Unless your player is a Pioneer 604 or better, it
is likely that the JVC will have the better comb filter, especially if
the one in the JVC is a true digital comb filter. It is very unlikely
that you will be able to use the comb filter in the TV itself as part
of the recording loop. Most TV's these days provide only composite
turner output for the A/V setup, if at all. Back in 1991, the SONY's
used to provide y/c tuner outputs, but not any more. However, SONY did
not begin to offer digital comb filters until their 1995-1996 models!
A very quick and definitve way of assessing comb filter qulity is to
make recordings from the test material on Video Essentials laser disk.
In particular, pay attention to the rendition of the color bar patter
(NOT IN STILL STOP!) and the Snell-Wilcox zone plate bouncing ball
test material. Use the y/c output from the VCR to the set for
playback. First, make your recordings via the composite output from
the L/D player. Then record another segment via the y/c output. Then
playback the tape and view. You will quickly see which is better! An
anlog comb filter will be rife with annoying dot crawl. A
three-line/2d type will have some sawtooth pattern but little dot
crawl. The digital comb filter will have some color fringing on the
s-w pattern, but will be less. With the top of the line adaptive-3d
comb filter (which only the Pioneer Elite Pro 99 laser disk player and
the Panasonic AG-1980 VCR will have), the demarcations on the color
bar will be absolutely clean, and with the s-w pattern, no rainbowing
will be seen except at four spots on the ball when it is moving.
>
>Now the VCR has to have that S-Video input. I want to record LD's on
>S-VHS so I have to connect the LD to the VCR. Given that LD video is
>stored in composite format, should I use a composite or S-Video cable
>from it to the VCR? If I use a composite cable, am I effectively
>using the VCR's comb filter for the LD's output?
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
>
>
Louis A. Carliner
Your source for video calibration expertise for
Washington, D.C., Maryland, Virginia and West Virgina
as well as Southern Delaware UNTIL LATE 1997
in transistion to West Central Florida
by an ISF/Joe Kane trained specialist equipped with both
the Philips color analyser and ISF optical comparator.
WILL TRAVEL ELSEWHERE! JUST PAY MY WAY!!
Phone: (301) 340-6120
email: lcar...@idsonline.com