Sony's new DVC
Eric Andrew Geppner
months NAB in Las Vegas. This third version is incompatible with Panasonic's
DVCPRO but is fully compatible with consumer DV. The system will include
everything from $60,000 US non-linear editors with 2 and 3-D effects all
the way down to basic edit feeder for $7,500 US.
According to this week's (March, 22) TV Technology Sony plans on
introducing lots of interesting equipment for DVCAM:
ES-7 Edit Station-- Running on Windows NT. Features 4x uploading
Clip Link (everytine you hit the REC button on your camcorder the
timecode numbers are stored on a little chip built-in to the tape. Insert
the tape into the system and a storyboard is automaticaly generated with
a thumbnail of the first frame of the clip.) Variable and adaptive
compression, Disk-B roll (the system automaticaly copies the clips necessary
for A-B roll editing to a harddrive, realtime text and graphics. 2 and
optional 3-D effects SDI/SDDI capable FireWire optional.
Price between $25,000 and $60,000 depending on options.
Available in Fall '96.
ES-3 Edit Station-- Running of Windows 95 Includes most of the
features of the ES-7 no 4x uploads and no 3-D
Price between $9,000 and $25,000 depending on options
Available in Jan. '97
DSR-130 DVCAM dockable camcorder 10-bit digital head with 2/3"
Power HAD IT CCDs. DSP settings can be stored on the tape or PC. ClipLink.
Price $22,000
Available in Fall '96
DSR-200 one-piece DVCAM camcorder. Upgraded DXC-1000. Improved
chip block. Nine pounds. Can load large DVC tapes for a run time of 3 hours.
Price $9,000
Available in Jan. '97
4x DVCAM upload deck
Price $17,000
Available Fall '96
Basic Edit Feeder and Edit Recorder no 4x capability
Price $7,500 and $10,000 respectively
Available Spring '97
The article also mentions some of Panasonics DVCPRO offerings including
the Laptop editor, an $11,000 editing deck, a $9,000 rec/play deck, a
DVCPRO SMARTCART, as well as the camcorder and edit deck already on the
market.
I like the Sony ClipLink idea a lot. It will be very interesting
to see who wins this new format war. I'm rooting for Sony.
--
/------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Eric Geppner | egep...@oswego.edu |
| Chief Engineer | |
| WTOP-TV10 | Snow, Snow, Snow, Snow, Snow|
| SUNY Oswego, Oswego NY 13126 | Snow, Snow, Wonderful Snow |
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/
BAYCITVIDGRP
Bennett) writes:
>
>
>
>I think you are EXACTLY right! This is the SECOND time in just a few
>months that Sony's changed around this new format to meet THEIR needs.
>
>Bob
>
The importance of MARKET SHARE is at work here. That is what it's
all about...but with the others coming up with their versions of
dvc...what other standards will be set ? Did Sony apply to
Panasonic to get licensed for dvcpro and did Pan turn them down?
It follows that Sony will take their football and go to another
stadium to play.
Read the CamCorder Mag article just out....
One thing is clear: Each player "HAS THE BETTER ANSWER" for people
to buy into.....which keeps prices high.
In two years or less the standards may have been solidified due to
competition....who will follow Pan's lead or who will go for Sony
and their solution...seems to be the same old story played over
again....sort of an expected marketing strategy by both...then when
they settle on it, NEW and BETTER equipment Just Out for YOU...the
sucker.
Seems to work for Panasonic and Sony .... they keep inventing new
standards to fight over with our money and then "oh, we have made
everything all right" and here is our "settlement" for all to be
happy about.
Which helps Sony because people will not leave BETA CAM SP for
the interim .... what else can Money corrupt absolutely?
bill conduit
bay cities video group
David Bittner
: Sony will demo a new version of DVC, to be called DVCAM at next
: DVCPRO but is fully compatible with consumer DV. The system will include
: everything from $60,000 US non-linear editors with 2 and 3-D effects all
: the way down to basic edit feeder for $7,500 US.
: I like the Sony ClipLink idea a lot. It will be very interesting
: to see who wins this new format war. I'm rooting for Sony.
But why a format war at all? It seems crazy to me that Sony would
come up with their own version of DVC, when Panasonic has already
announced a Pro version. The whole point of DVC was to have a
high quality unified format. Now we've got three.
I really believe that Sony is doing this to weaken the whole DVC
format, thereby making their own Digital Beta SX look like a
stronger alternative.
Sony giveth, and Sony taketh away...
David Bittner - Pixel Workshop Inc. - (410) 715-9050
Video Production - Media 100 - Electric Image
BAYCITVIDGRP
attending NAB....fine info.
What this points up to is is that Sony did go ahead and make a
better upgrade of the dig 1000 model. That is what was suggested they
were doing and for that the groundwork is set down to make the dvc
format work...notice a dvc player/recorder....
For those who have the 1000 model...well, enjoy the prototype.
This model got them market share...sony that is.
The next model seems pricey...should retail for around 7000 or
less....but who knows, maybe sony will complete the sony dvc1000
model a bit more to same pricing...maybe not.
What this points to is that the format is not going to be cheap.
More than S-vhs and less than beta cam sp....so they settle for
mid-range. Good for buyers.
From this we can see that Sony is Serious about DVC....remember
they have a computer they are making in the backroom. Complete
with firewire connectors....if that rumor is right on still.
Now the Wait gets interesting....what will NAB unveil for all of
us that chose to wait ? By what Sony has here, it looks like
both Sony and Pan are going to be going full-steam ahead with the
the new format.
Supporting it that is. Notice how much faster both Companies came
out with their supporting equipment....notice how Ed Beta never
got this far...note how long it took for S-vhs to get this much
support lined up prior to "official unveiling" ....such as NAB.
Plus both linear and non-linear applications are being addressed
with vigor and dispatch.
Look forward to what the others are going to introduce....like JVC
and hopefully more VCR's for dvc....competition to help bring the
prices in line.
By the way....get this next issue of Camcorder: they ask if it's
not the best thing to Wait before buying dvc....they must read the
group here and saw "wait" posted....for dvc....read it. It's a good
point they make about the process and the problems this new format
is about.
bill conduit
bay cities video group
408 13th St. ste. 229
Oakland Ca 94612
In <Dov7A...@oswego.Oswego.EDU> egep...@news.oswego.edu (Eric Andrew
Geppner ) writes:
>
> Sony will demo a new version of DVC, to be called DVCAM at next
>months NAB in Las Vegas. This third version is incompatible with
Panasonic's
>DVCPRO but is fully compatible with consumer DV.>
>
> DSR-130 DVCAM dockable camcorder 10-bit digital head with 2/3"
>Power HAD IT CCDs. DSP settings can be stored on the tape or PC.
ClipLink.
>Price $22,000
>Available in Fall '96
>
> DSR-200 one-piece DVCAM camcorder. Upgraded DXC-1000. Improved
>chip block. Nine pounds. Can load large DVC tapes for a run time of 3
hours.
>Price $9,000
>Available in Jan. '97
>
> This gets ahead of the dxc-1000 by some bucks....but you are
pro's and this is the expected from the industry you support....
4000 or so for a prototype and now figure 7000 or so for the nine-
pound model....PROGRESS
Time to go sleep and wake up for NAB fest.....
Bob Bennett
writes:
>But why a format war at all? It seems crazy to me that Sony would
>come up with their own version of DVC, when Panasonic has already
>announced a Pro version. The whole point of DVC was to have a
>high quality unified format. Now we've got three.
>
>I really believe that Sony is doing this to weaken the whole DVC
>format, thereby making their own Digital Beta SX look like a
>stronger alternative.
>
>Sony giveth, and Sony taketh away...
>
>David Bittner - Pixel Workshop Inc. - (410) 715-9050
>Video Production - Media 100 - Electric Image
I think you are EXACTLY right! This is the SECOND time in just a few
months that Sony's changed around this new format to meet THEIR needs.
And their needs is to keep the old BETA line chugging on as long as
they can convince people they need it. And charge ridiculously high
dollars for it.
I used to have a goal of getting up to the BetaSP format and quality.
Now, I've passed it without touching it. Now I also realize that I
probably won't even miss it.
Bob
Doug Thompson
> The whole point of DVC was to have a high quality unified format.
> Now we've got three.
> I really believe that Sony is doing this to weaken the whole DVC
> format, thereby making their own Digital Beta SX look like a
> stronger alternative.
In their official announcement, which was posted a few weeks ago in
rec.video.professional, they claimed that the noncompatiblility was
decided upon (not exact quote): in order to facilitate full interchange
with the non-professional (i.e. consumer) format.
The point is, if enough people hassle them about this, they might
modify their thinking. After all, nothing is being shipped for a long
time yet. I don't think that being able to play my pro-DVC format
tapes on a consumer's deck is *that* important. I might be interested
in using consumer format footage in acquisition, though.
Give 'em hell at NAB; I plan to.
-------------
Doug Thompson
Operations Manager, IMC
Worcester Polytechnic Institute (MA)
d...@wpi.edu
Steven Bradford
>I really believe that Sony is doing this to weaken the whole DVC
>format, thereby making their own Digital Beta SX look like a
>stronger alternative.
>
You may be right. I think they're just trying to hedge their bets. Maybe
they've finally realized that the Beta SX format is a loser from the
start.
Steven Bradford
Electronic Cinematography
Seattle WA
http://www.seanet.com/Users/bradford/bluscrn.html
Steven Bradford
(snip)
I don't think that being able to play my pro-DVC format
>tapes on a consumer's deck is *that* important. I might be interested
>in using consumer format footage in acquisition, though.
>
>Give 'em hell at NAB; I plan to.
>-------------
>Doug Thompson
>Operations Manager, IMC
>Worcester Polytechnic Institute (MA)
>d...@wpi.edu
As you are probably aware, Panasonics DVC-Pro will play the consumer
format tapes. Which is good since the consumer 3 chip is also part of
the broadcast product line. I agree, this is the crucial compatiblity
path. Is downward compatiblity essential. Nice. But essential? I don't
know.
Tom Pendergast
>What really annoys me is that these two "giants" could not compromise on the
>format. Another bloody format war. Just what the buying public needs.
>What a bunch of morons...!
Round 1 - The JVC/Panasonic crowd wins the consumer market VHS/Betamax
war (although those of us who opted for better pictures over
6 hour tape capacity might not agree)
Round 2 - Sony Betacam leaves the pro market saying "MII, who??"
Round 3 - As soon as I figure out exactly what market is being fought
over here, I'll give y'all my prediction on a winner ...
>Larry Jandro - Owner
>* LJ Video Engineering * WARNING...!!! *
>* lar...@ljvideo.com * Keyboard Not Attached *
>* http://www.ljvideo.com/larryj * Press F10 To Continue. *
--
Tom Pendergast, proudly representing ...
Sharpshooters Video || http://www.3rivers.com/svid.htm
& 3 Rivers mini-mall, Pgh, PA || http://www.3rivers.com/
MediaPulse
Information please.
Benjamin Shapiro
I am confused...Panasonic has DVCPRO and Sony DV, but then what is the mini-
DV format in relation to their bigger cousins? Are all the mini-DV cameras
the same format, i.e. Sony and Panasonic et al? Will mini-DV tapes play back
in both DVCPRO and Sony DV decks?
Thanks for the info.
BAYCITVIDGRP
Sony and Pan have their own spec's now.....stay tuned for major
ways to make major buyers angry with all these standards which
the companies have for us to choose from.
go to: http://www.elitevideo.com.....
look for the menus for sony and panasonic and jvc...there
the answers are to be found.....
this www source has all three search engines here...greast idea
for those who don't want to keep on looking for www's all the
time....it's in one address....tell the author how well you like his
idea....
all the specs are there plus comments....from the author
bill
bay cities video group
Steven Bradford
>
>I am confused...Panasonic has DVCPRO and Sony DV, but then what is the mini-
>DV format in relation to their bigger cousins? Are all the mini-DV cameras
>the same format, i.e. Sony and Panasonic et al? Will mini-DV tapes play back
>in both DVCPRO and Sony DV decks?
>
>Thanks for the info.
Yes. No. Yes. er maybe?
The confusion is intentional. Generally when people are confused in the professional world, they just throw up their hands and buy =
anything that has Sony stamped on it.
But to answer your question:
The mini DV cassette is currently only a DV consumer format. It is used in Panasonic AG series camera that is sold thryough the broa=
dcast division, but that camera is Identical to the consumer division camera.
The DVC pro studio decks can play back the mini DV cassette, but not record to it in the consumer format.
There is no difference between the Sony and Panasonic or JVC versions of the consumer DV format. Sony cassettes have a memory chip t=
hat is utilized by their cameras. But cassettes can go between all brands of cameras.
The recently announced DVCam from Sony is different from Consumer DV, but not enough to prevent compatiblity for both recording and =
playback.
This is roughly comparable to the difference between SP and EP speeds in VHS. DVCam will supposedly use all the different planned s=
izes of cassetes.
DVC Pro adds a cue audio track which will be very useful in editing. Currently Panasonic hasn't shown any DVC Pro products using the=
mini cassette, but it is possible. Recording time would be an hour.
I would not be surprised to see panasonic add the capability to record standard consumer DV to their Studio Decks.
I doubt this has been helpful, I got confused while writing it!!!
Hal S.
>I am confused...Panasonic has DVCPRO and Sony DV, but then what is the mini-
>DV format in relation to their bigger cousins? Are all the mini-DV cameras
>the same format, i.e. Sony and Panasonic et al? Will mini-DV tapes play back
>in both DVCPRO and Sony DV decks?
There are now three DV formats. The electronic signal in all three is
the same but they are recorded differently on the tape.
DV from Sony and Panasonic.
DVCpro from Panasonic
DVCam from Sony
Both DVCpro and DVcam are derived the consumer DV format and offer
downward compatibility.
DVCPRO and DVCCAM are totally incompatible. Each format uses a
different track width and tape speed . DV 10 microns, DVCPRO 18
microns and DVCam 15 microns.
There is a special tape for DVcam but the standard DV tape will work.
Someday equipment manufactures may actually agree on something, but it
looks like DV isn't it.
Hal
Bent Hagemark
While the shape of the tape cartridge and on-tape recording techniques differ,
the bits representing video images are identical on all.
Bent
Bob Bennett
<brad...@bradford.seanet.com> writes:
>The recently announced DVCam from Sony is different from Consumer DV,
but not enough to prevent compatiblity for both recording and playback.
This is roughly comparable to the difference between SP and EP speeds
in VHS. DVCam will supposedly use all the different planned sizes of
cassetes.
From what I understand, there's no difference in data and therefore
picture and sound quality between the standard DV format and the
"fatter" DV formats Panasonic and Sony have produced. The differences
are supposedly in functionality: tape durability during editing and
re-use (although I've not seen any degradation in four or five passes
of standard miniDV tape). Interesting concept, since one of the main
ideas of the new DV format is to go into NLE systems and not be edited
on anyway!!!!????
But there is a tremendous difference betweeen SP and EP speeds in VHS.
Quality in SP is poor, LP is very poor and EP is extremely poor. :)
Bob
JKreines
Quality in SP is poor, LP is very poor and EP is extremely poor. :)((
But digital recording (as long as all the bits fit) doesn't suffer from
speed related problems like analog does.
Jeff Kreines
DeMott/Kreines Films
Bob Bennett
Right. But DV has only one speed. The post I replied to compared DVCpro/DVCam to VHS-SP quality and miniDV
to VHS-EP, and what I was saying was that it wasn't so. DV is the SAME, whether on Panasonic's DVCpro,
Sony's DVCam, or anyone's miniDV tape case.
In <4jrfag$n...@caesar.ultra.net> h...@ultranet.com (Hal S.) writes:
>
>bsha...@well.sf.ca.us (Benjamin Shapiro) wrote:
>
>>>Will mini-DV tapes play back
>>in both DVCPRO and Sony DV decks?
Both Sony and Panasonic say "YES"
>There are now three DV formats. The electronic signal in all three is
>the same but they are recorded differently on the tape.
True.
>DVCPRO and DVCCAM are totally incompatible. Each format uses a
>different track width and tape speed . DV 10 microns, DVCPRO 18
>microns and DVCam 15 microns.
I think Panasonic says that their system will also play back SONY's
DVCam tapes.
Bob
Blackout
: ))But there is a tremendous difference betweeen SP and EP speeds in VHS.
: But digital recording (as long as all the bits fit) doesn't suffer from
: speed related problems like analog does.
: Jeff Kreines
: DeMott/Kreines Films
Right, so basically, the DVCPRO format is a load of bullshit, because
if the REGULAR DVC was shitty, than people would not buy it to begin
with. And DVCPro has to better picture or sound quality at all, but it
costs a hell of a lot more. Maybe if you store your tape on DVCPro it
will last a few years longer, but I plan to dummp the footage to a non
linear editor and edit it.
Blackout
JKreines
Jeff Kreines
DeMott/Kreines Films
BAYCITVIDGRP
>
>Right, so basically, the DVCPRO format is a load of bullshit, because
>if the REGULAR DVC was shitty, than people would not buy it to begin
>with. And DVCPro has to better picture or sound quality at all, but
it
>costs a hell of a lot more. Maybe if you store your tape on DVCPro it
>will last a few years longer, but I plan to dummp the footage to a non
>linear editor and edit it.
>
>Blackout
>
From what I read and get info about dvcpro this format designation
refers to ENG/EFP style cameras with buyable for big bucks editing
machines....I was under the impression that the DVCPRO indicates the
level of sophistication necessary for that use of....dvc cameras as
I have held in my palms and pretended to put on my shoulder, are
consumer-like units...designed to "fondle" as you think about what
video you will get.
Whereas the DVCPRO you don't fondle...you tripod it. Or you get to
put on shoulder and actually press "start" and you look like a pro
doing video at some desired location.
DVCPRO costs are high, because you are getting into ENG/EFP app's.
What else is new?
IF YOU HAVE 5000 TO SPEND, you choose dvc. If you have $30k to
spend you choose dvcpro. If you have $30K to spend you have more
to spend on the editing gear when that comes out. If you have 30K
to spend you know that it don't stop at that figure with dvcpro.
My thinking is that anything with PRO on the end means a continual
plethora of "new PRO" machinery updates to keep you spending more
and more for that "perfect video presentation"....
DVCPRO means the ability in our lifetime to transmit images over
the phone lines to a receptor...after being editing in the field
prior to submission.
DVC don't do that.
bill conduit
bay cities video group
BAY AREA
Mika Iisakkila
>Right, so basically, the DVCPRO format is a load of bullshit, because
>if the REGULAR DVC was shitty, than people would not buy it to begin
>with. And DVCPro has to better picture or sound quality at all, but it
>costs a hell of a lot more. Maybe if you store your tape on DVCPro it
>will last a few years longer, but I plan to dummp the footage to a non
>linear editor and edit it.
That (recording robustness) isn't the whole point in DVCPRO. In
exchange for the agreeably much saltier price, you get these features
that regular DVC lacks:
- 4x playback into a non-linear editor (great for ENG)
- A real camera (read: something you mount on your shoulder), with
all the usual benefits: clear recoding level meters, better placing
for controls, more stable picture when off the tripod (great for ENG)
- Choice of decent optics (great for ENG)
- Better audio
- Real SMPTE time code instead of some cheap plastic prosumer imitation
Whether all that makes up for the price difference is up to the
buyer. I believe that those who can afford DVCPRO will think it does.
--
angst
gra...@delphi.com
>exchange for the agreeably much saltier price, you get these features
>that regular DVC lacks:
>
>- 4x playback into a non-linear editor (great for ENG)
>- A real camera (read: something you mount on your shoulder), with
> all the usual benefits: clear recoding level meters, better placing
> for controls, more stable picture when off the tripod (great for ENG)
>- Choice of decent optics (great for ENG)
>- Better audio
>- Real SMPTE time code instead of some cheap plastic prosumer imitation
style DVC---wider track makes available "real SMPTE" as well as other features l
like user-writeable bits. It also means you can play a DVC tape in a DVC-Pro
deck but not vice-versa (Kinda sounds like S-VHS and VHS).
Also DVC tape formulation is more abrasive than DVC-Pro and will eat those heads
up a lot quicker.