Newtek Abandons Flyer??!
Jeffrey Hoffman
Myron Achtman wrote:
> NewTek announced at their dealer meeting that all future
> Amiga development of NewTek products, including Flyer 5.0, is on hold.
>
> (snip)
>
> P.S. NewTek did announce that they will relook at the Amiga
> development issue once Gateway2000 has made commitments to the
> platform."
I suspect this last statement is the key issue here. Since the purchase
of Amiga, Gateway has produced nothing tangible for developers to cling
to. Once the first new Amiga rolls off the assembly line, things might
look different in the eyes of NewTek.
---------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey D. Hoffman, Safe Harbor Computers
"Your #1 source for DV, 3D, and graphics products."
webm...@sharbor.com -- http://www.sharbor.com
W226 N900 Eastmound Dr. Waukesha, WI 53186
Call us: 800-544-6599 -- fax: 414-548-8130
Glenn Saunders
The mortal Myron Achtman wrote:
: "I'm sure this would have been the "hot topic" for the list had it
: been up. NewTek announced at their dealer meeting that all future
: Amiga development of NewTek products, including Flyer 5.0, is on hold.
This is what Ray Cornise said at the Expo. I didn't know quite how to
interpret it at the time, but given that Newtek made a similar
announcement about Amiga Lightwave, I can only interpret "on hold" to mean
"it's dead, but we don't want to create a commotion".
After all, Newtek wants to sell a few Flyers and upgrade a few Amiga
Lightwave licenses to 5.0 before it's over and done with, and saying
support is dead is going to kill sales.
: P.S. NewTek did announce that they will relook at the Amiga
: development issue once Gateway2000 has made commitments to the
: platform."
Given that the Toaster/Flyer is dependent on ECS/AGA 68K amigas, I don't
see how GW2K is going to help things.
68K amigas are being manufactured in trickle-quantities and will meet
demands (albeit at an insane pricetag) as official Amiga clones.
Odds are a future PPC Amiga would NOT be backwards compatible with the
T/F, and would take over a year to debut, so I really don't see how GW2K
could do anything to make Newtek feel better about the T/F.
Lightwave is a different issue, since it is not hardware dependent on
existing Amiga technology. Newtek could recompile for Amiga PPC when the
time comes.
info...@globetrotter.qc.ca
Myron Achtman wrote:
> >Myron Achtman says Newtek has abondoned development on the Flyer!!
> Hello Kevin:
>
> Perhaps this information from Joe Tracy will convince you:
>
> "I'm sure this would have been the "hot topic" for the list had it
> been up. NewTek announced at their dealer meeting that all future
> Amiga development of NewTek products, including Flyer 5.0, is on hold.
> I must admit that this news came as quite a shock to me and I still
> don't know quite what to make of it. It APPEARS to have been a
> financial decision, but every time I add up the numbers in my mind
> (and on paper), NewTek profits from a 5.0 release conducted by 2-3
> full time programmers.
>
> I'm trying to get more information and will be addressing this in my
> January editorial in NewTekniques. The announcement was made on
> Sunday of the Expo which led a number of Flyer users over to DV Expo
> to look at the Trinity. If a PC Flyer is to exist, however, my money
> is that it will ship as a full non-linear editing system before the
> Trinity does. Time will tell. Trinity (the linear version) is now
> shipping in "December" according to sources who went to the DV Expo.
>
> Still trying to interpret everything,
>
> Joe Tracy
>
> P.S. NewTek did announce that they will relook at the Amiga
> development issue once Gateway2000 has made commitments to the
> platform."
Read between the line "relook at Amiga" it something that never happen with NewTek... So
all the things I was thinking about NewTek was true, and furthermore there is no more
VTML... looks not good, very not good.
Even my sales rep announced to me that LW 5.5 INTEL was in sales for 100.00 CDN less
than before... NewTek has some trouble with money ??? And will do the same as GVP has
done ???? Nothing from NewTek now can impress me now.
Look like a big nightmare.
> Myron Achtman--
Michel Pour/For Info Plus
We support, sell and repair:
NewTek: Toaster/Flyer, LightWave (All), AMIGA computer, Intel CPU for LW.
Come to:
http://web.idirect.com/~infoplus
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Glenn Saunders
One thing that is telling is that the current Toaster/Flyer full color
brochure, although new, features a large quote from Stan Shumlick
lionizing the Flyer. Stan is now fed up and is in the process of selling
his system off so he can go Avid (I don't know if he sold it yet).
Many of the Flyer's longstanding advocates are now bailing, and much of
this is due to Newtek's slow to nonexistent T/F development and marketing.
--
==========================================================================
== Glenn Saunders --3D Graphics / Videography / Web development-- ==
== kri...@poboxes.com homepage http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/1698 ==
== Stella@20 video page http://www.primenet.com/~krishna ==
== TV Commercials page http://www.lawguru.com/production/production.html==
==========================================================================
Dartek
>You guys are all over reacting! You're acting like they've just taken
>away your mother.
Well, imagine the surprise that Toaster/Flyer owners had when they found out
they had gotten the shaft? No HQ6, no V5 upgrade, no hope of Newtek coming
through on promises made YEARS ago as to the supposed quality of the system.
THAT'S the problem, not the fact that Newtek has decided to halt all Amiga
development. Newtek has lied, lied, lied, and misrepresented the product.
Bad form mate. Bad form.
Dartek
Ed Bennett
I understand your frustration. The specs were absurdly outrageous from the
start. I did my best to try to convince the faithful long before the fact. All
I got in return was a bunch of Ed bashing. Even Lee Stranahan got bashed this
last Summer for trying to shake some reality into them.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
chuck...@newtek.com
In article <345833...@primenet.com>,
The specs are fine. You were talking about how the Flyer compared to
other NLEs when in fact you had no experience with the Flyer, and
whenever someone who did have comparative experience with the Flyer and
other NLE systems reported that the Flyer produced better video, you told
them they were smoking crack. Of course they got upset with you. They
knew what they were talking about by direct experience, and you
discounted their experience in favor of your theory.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jeffery S. Jones
On 29 Oct 1997 14:08:00 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>You guys are all over reacting! You're acting like they've just taken
>away your mother.
>
>Put yourselves in NewTek's shoes for just a second. Sales of new
>Toaaster/Flyer systems have been tied closely with the manufacture
>of the old Amiga models (and the sale of used Amigas). With Gateway's
>announcement of the new Amigas, they implicitly announced the end of the
>old Amiga models. I'm sure that they won't have Amiga International
>trying to ramp up production on new models with all their resources
>still devoted to producing old units. So, NewTek has a choice:
>
>a. Continue to devote resources on a platform that is now definitely
>"dead end", condemning the future of the Toaster/Flyer to the sales of
>used Amigas.
>
>b. Abandon development on a platform with no future and devote all
>resources to getting the Toaster/Flyer to another platform (PC, new
>Amiga, whatever) so that it has some hope for a future.
>
>Any company with even half a brain cell at the top would choose option
>"b" (it does amaze me that it took them so long to realize the pending
>doom, the decision should have been made after the Amiga went through
>the first bankruptcy). You guys had to know (especially when this same
>fate fell to Lightwave) that eventually this would happen to the
>Toaster/Flyer. This should be no surprise to you at all. You had to
>know that it was coming someday.
Yes, but development stopping at, effectively, version 5.0 isn't
bad, since it will offer most of the requested features (including the
increased video bandwidth). Since Newtek has been using outside
programmers for much of the work already, the net impact for users of
the current equipment isn't that bad. Netwek's announcement did not
in any way preclude additional development on the machine -- it simply
said that it would no longer be Newtek's development. I feel that
Newtek's announcement could have been placed a bit better, to clear up
these issues, but it doesn't kill the Flyer for users -- it doesn't
eliminate support, nor wipe out all future development.
Newtek may resume development. They certainly are continuing to
sell and support the equipment they've sold. They are continuing to
expand 3rd party development, which could continue without that, but
works better with continued support.
It is way to early to panic, but even if Newtek never did further
development, as long as the other developers were licensed to do it,
upgrades would still be available.
The next generation machine may not offer a direct upgrade for the
current hardware, but TBCs and video hard drives remain useful.
Beyond that, even on a PC or Mac it is often hard to salvage anything
-- except for used equipment "fire sales".
>What you have to do now is hope that NewTek didn't waste so much money
>and resources on the old Amiga that they can't afford to pull out of the
>steep dive that they are in. It'll likely cost them several million to
>bring a new Toaster/Flyer to market on a different platform. And, start
>saving now. Can you say "UPGRADE"? You need to make the same business
>decision that NewTek just made. Do you continue to rely on a system
>with a definite "dead end" or do you switch to something with a future?
Newtek has been extremely quiet about its video technology
development. The Flyer is visible because it is out there. The
next-generation machine is not. Newtek has done very well with
Lightwave. Most of the engineering brainpower behind the
Toaster/Flyer is still at Newtek, and they've recruited new people.
There is reason to believe that this will result in some wonderful new
video editing technologies, on whatever platform fits the needs.
--
*-_________________________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
Jeff Jones <mailto:jef...@execpc.com> \\// Amiga: Born Again 1997
*Task Force Games* <http://www.task-force-games.com>
*Stafire Design Studio* <http://cd.murr.missouri.edu/sds/SF-main.html>
*Graphic Reflections and Websites* <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/>
Ed Bennett
chuck...@newtek.com wrote:
> The specs are fine.
Pardon me Chuck, but when did the Flyer (the product, not some lab bench
test) ever pass a 6 MHz video signal? When did the Flyer (the product, not
some lab bench test) ever produce any lossless D2 video with a practical
image? When did the Flyer (the product, not some lab bench test) ever
perform at an 8 MB/s data rate? And perhaps you'd like to tell everyone when
it will? Never? Thank you for your honesty.
What did customers actually get for spending $7500 on a Toaster/Flyer? A
composite video system that wouldn't pass a video signal beyond 4.2 MHz. The
only images that could be encoded by VTASC lossless were those that didn't
have content beyond 4.2 MHz and were so bland that they didn't exceed 4.8
MB/s with simple huffman encoding (ie, not from real video sources). And
while were on the topic of data rates, 4.8 MB/s was the limit. Beyond that,
the Flyer just starts throwing out data. In short, customers paid $7500 for
a composite only NLE system that can't preserve the quality of SVHS recorded
video.
> You were talking about how the Flyer compared to
> other NLEs when in fact you had no experience with the Flyer, and
> whenever someone who did have comparative experience with the Flyer and
> other NLE systems reported that the Flyer produced better video, you told
> them they were smoking crack. Of course they got upset with you. They
> knew what they were talking about by direct experience, and you
> discounted their experience in favor of your theory.
Pardon me again Chuck. When someone (Myron Achtman) really did comparitave
tests between the Flyer and other NLE systems he found the video quality of
the Flyer to be obviously inferior. I participated in some of that testing
and have the tapes to prove it. Unlike so many of the faithful (and NewTek),
Myron has enough integrity to honestly perform the tests and accurately
report the results.
The people that protested these results were the faithfully brainwashed who
never actually did any comparison testing, they preferred to spout the same
mind numbing propaganda that NewTek continues to push. They got upset with
me because they wasted $10K on a system that never will match the video
quality of systems costing less than half that price. Some of them were bold
enough to say that output from the Flyer was indistinguishable from output
from a Beta SP deck. But when pushed for the details, they were forced to
admit that they were looking at the composite output of the Beta SP deck
using cheap Tee-Vee sets or old Commodore Amiga monitors.
Finally, since when is it just theory to say that component video is superior
to composite video? When is it just theory to say that a 5.5 MHz signal has
higher resolution than a 4.2 MHz signal? When you have a tape in your hand
demonstrating how the Flyer degraded a simple SVHS recording, you're no
longer talking theory. You're talking propaganda busting facts. Shame on
NewTek for leading these people along with false specifications for so many
years.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
PS: A year ago when I pointed out to you that the specs on the NewTek web
site did not represent the product that was actually being sold to customers,
you said that it was old data that had accidently been included during a
server change. You said it would be corrected but it hasn't been. That
makes a strong (read: air-tight) case for deliberate misrepresentation.
Ed Bennett
FX wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:02:40 -0600, chuck...@newtek.com wrote:
<snip my comments>
> >The specs are fine. You were talking about how the Flyer compared to
> >other NLEs when in fact you had no experience with the Flyer, and
> >whenever someone who did have comparative experience with the Flyer and
> >other NLE systems reported that the Flyer produced better video, you told
> >them they were smoking crack. Of course they got upset with you. They
> >knew what they were talking about by direct experience, and you
> >discounted their experience in favor of your theory.
>
> THANK YOU CHUCK.
>
> Now will he try to change the rules with you as he did when I brought this up.
"Change the rules?" I didn't know that there was any rules against exposing your
lies. What rules are you talking about? Rules about accuracy, honesty,
integrity? You seemed to dispense with those without a second thought. How
about rules against libel? You didn't seem to like those either. In fact, you
didn't want to talk about the Flyer and it's issues at all. You just wanted to
try to find some way to discredit me so that nobody would listen to the truth.
Well, now the truth has hit you in the face like a freight train. Tell me now
how viable the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer is now!
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Ed Bennett
Jeffery S. Jones wrote:
> The Flyer will pass -- in real life work -- 6 MHz directly from an
> outside source to output, with CG and effects added. Does this all
> the time, assuming that you don't need to digitize it to the hard
> drive. In a hybrid linear-NLE environment, this is quite good
> quality.
This is a bit misleading. The Flyer is the NLE component of the system.
It digitizes video, stores it on hard disks and controls it's playback
through the Toaster triggering transitions and effects in real time.
You are talking about the Toaster only, which is basicly a computer
controlled composite SEG/switcher. All video from the Flyer is limited
to 4.2 MHz, 4.8 MB/s. You can't do NLE without the Flyer.
Also, as I understand it, the Flyer doesn't have any machine control.
That wouldn't make for a very good hybrid solution if you had to
manually control your deck during editing. Is there some thrid party
app that adds machine control to the Flyer that would allow hybrid
editing? It might also look pretty awkward intermixing Flyer (4.2 MHz)
clips with tape clips at 5~6 MHz.
Sorry Jeff, I think this is quite a stretch.
> HQ6 has also been demonstrated, and achieves a higher bandwidth than
> HQ5, without the 4.2MHz limit. This falls into the realm of beta
> testing, but it certainly is outside of the area of lab bench tests.
The word here has been that v.5 of the Flyer, including HQ6 will never
come to pass. All the people that I know of that are likely candidates
for beta testing have voiced their disapapointment at the anouncement
saying there will be no v.5. Is development going to continue until v.5
is released or have they stopped altogether as we heard in the initial
report?
> On the other issues, regarding the delivery of the promised
> uncompressed D2 equivalent ability, I would also like to know if it
> can be delivered as promised. But I would find the 6MHz bandwidth
> that the linear portion of the machine supports to be sufficient.
Uncompressed D2 comes in at 14.3 MB/s. Lossless D2 (compressed using a
lossless algorithm) would likely come in at about 8 MB/s (as advertised
but not delivered).
> Specs should be qualified for working users. But other gear also
> quotes numbers that apply only in some situations. It is not as
> though users with test equipment and good quality decks cannot measure
> for themselves, and make valid complaints against Newtek if it doesn't
> measure up.
Specs should reflect what the product is capable of. The "Truth in
Advertising Act" is quite specific. The manufacturer must be able to
demonstrate how a typical user can reasonably expect to realize the
claims made for a product. Otherwise, the claims are false. The
typical Flyer user has no hope of using the product to record a 6 MHz
video signal with an 8 MB/s data rate. There are no situations or
configurations available to users that would enable them to realize the
claims made for the Flyer.
A lot of Toaster/Flyer advocates justify this by saying that other NLE
products don't measure up to their claims either (as you have done
here). I am not aware of any situations as grossly inaccurate as the
Flyer. In fact, I've extensivly tested the Plum and found it to live up
to all of it's specs and claims very well.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Ed Bennett
FX wrote:
>
> On 29 Oct 1997 14:08:00 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >You guys are all over reacting! You're acting like they've just taken
> >away your mother.
> >
> >Put yourselves in NewTek's shoes for just a second. Sales of new
> >Toaaster/Flyer systems have been tied closely with the manufacture
> >of the old Amiga models (and the sale of used Amigas). With Gateway's
> >announcement of the new Amigas, they implicitly announced the end of the
> >old Amiga models.
>
> old C= Techs / Engineers, at least as consultants, But they won't use these in
> the new model? How much did they pay? They will build a new computer, and not
> make it downward compatable? No improved Custom Chip Set, No Video Slot, (I
> know that a lot of IBM stuff is like that, but things don't have to be built
> that way) That means they will have to get all new 3rd party, Software /
> Hardware? Is this the way you manufacture stuff Ed? What will this new machine
> be an IBM with the Amiga name on the box?
You actually claim to run your own business and spout this nonsense? Gateway
purchased the rights to the patents and trademarks. They did it so that they could
make money with them, not to provide you and all the other existing Amiga fanatics
with faster versions of 1985 technology. According to Wall Street analysts,
Gateway is very weak in the corporate environment. My guess is that they bought
the Amiga intellectual property so that they could create a line targeted at home
users and differentiate their PC systems for the business segment. If you read the
reports, you 'll see that I'm not in bad company with that opinion. It's a smart
move so long as they can add the Amiga advantages without sacrificing PC
compatability (incompatability being the "kiss of death" in the mainstream market).
Do you think that they are concerned with your investment in a bunch of 10+ year
old software and hardware? They would be stupid to cater to such a niche (cult)
market. They want to make money with the Amiga name and it's patents. Therefore,
they must provide a product that appeals to new buyers that are accustomed to
competitive products with the latest technology. Yes, you're likely to see a PC
compatable product with the Amiga name on the box and a few extra features from the
Amiga patents. It's likely (extremely likely) that an investment in the old Amiga
platform will not translate to the new Amgia platform. Otherwise, you wouldn't see
companies like NewTek making anouncements about halting further development for the
old Amiga.
> > I'm sure that they won't have Amiga International
> >trying to ramp up production on new models with all their resources
> >still devoted to producing old units. So, NewTek has a choice:
>
> And how does someone start production of a new model, Do they just close up and
> not sell for how ever long it takes to rebuild the factory? You are in
> manufacturing, is this how you would do it?
I have participated in the start up of several high volume manufacturing lines
(1000+ units per day). My own manufacturing facility pales in comparison (I don't
have a separate line for each product). There are a lot of factors that influence
how it is done. In most of these cases, it wasn't a matter of restricted resources
or floor space so we could easily build a completely separate line for the new
products. Often the new line would be in full volume production for at least a
month before announcement so that inventory could be built up. Sufficient
inventory of the old product was always built up before intro of the new product to
facilitate what's called a "lighting roll". This inventory level was determined by
soliciting "lifetime buy" orders from the resellers. We could ship old product all
the way up to the announce date of the new product even though the line had been
shut down over a month before. On the day of announcement, we had inventory of the
new product to ship without delay. Very little (if any) inventory of the old
product remained. These units were saved for warranty replacement. In the case of
excess inventory of the old product, we would enlist the help of a "broker" to
"fire-sale" these units in some catalog or auction.
But, the Amiga situation is incredibly different. I suspect that resources are
extremely tight (Gateway not showing very good performance this year). The old
Amiga models will never satisfy the financial goals of Gateway. Instead, they are
likely a financial drain (serving such a small niche). So, it's not very likely
that Gateway is going to support a dual pipeline. But, they can't exactly perform
a "lightning roll" because they pre-announced the new Amigas. Pre-announcement is
a big clue that they plan to discontinue the old Amigas. Whenever you pre-announce
a new product, you automaticly sabotage sales volumes on the existing product. You
can try to avoid this by offering attractive upgrade options but you still condemn
the old product to declining sales volumes. It's also a way to bolster market
confidance (a short-term measure that can back-fire). I suspect that they will
build up sufficient inventory of the old models (they may have already done this)
so that they can tear down (or retrofit) the old line to build a new line. They
will likely begin shipping new Amigas when the old ones are almost gone. This is
the most economical way to do it. Dealers will likely know about a month in
advance because they will be solicited for "stocking" orders of the new models.
> >
> I'm sorry but IMHO this doesn't sound like it makes good business sence to me.
Maybe now it will make better business "sense" to you. Try thinking like a
businessman instead of a dejected Amiga cult member.
Of course, the NewTek situation is even more different still. They
pre-announced the introduction of a PC based product way too far in advance.
The announcement undoubtedly erroded sales of the Amiga based Toaster/Flyer. The
benefits of pre-announcement have long since passed. The announcement is
currently viewed as vapor-ware and has a big negative effect on market confidance
(it backfired). Now they have pre-announced the discontinuance of the current
product, canceling announcements of promised upgrades. This further erodes sales
of the current product (only an idiot would buy one now!) and completely destroys
market confidance. Can you spell B-L-U-N-D-E-R? It's hard to see any business
sense in any of this. If they have a follow-on product ready, they should have
announced it when they announced the discontinuance of the Amiga based product. If
it isn't ready, they should have held off on the discontinuance announcement. If
they pre-announce anything now, nobody will believe them. If they wait too long
to announce a new product, their current customer base (already feeling dejected)
will abandon them. At this point, the best they can hope for is to let the
Amiga/Toaster/Flyer die completely and re-enter the market sometime in the future
with a completely new product.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Ed Bennett
Jalon wrote:
>
> Exactly which NLE's are you referring to that have better quality than the
> flyer at half the price?
Specifically, the DPS PVR Perception and the Plum were tested. Both come in
at under $4000 complete. I suspect that the Targa 2000, and the Media 100 QX
systems would also outshine the Flyer but they weren't tested.
--
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Jalon
I love the way americans associate everything they dislike with the
ultimate evil. Everything is so easily black and white for them.
I am referring to a niche market being referred to as a cult. And we all
know a "cult" is a really, really bad thing. I guess all non linear editors
must be cultists since they are only a small group with a special interest.
So whats next. If I have an opinion that does not match every one else's
does that make me a "cultist".
What happened to reasonable discussions.
As to the rest of the crap you spouted, a news release came out saying that
someone in europe was going to be licensed to produce amigas. The same
release mentioned something about quikpack continuing with production of
amigas.
So you might want to rethink you support of newteks decision based on the
reasons you provided
Jalon
Exactly which NLE's are you referring to that have better quality than the
flyer at half the price?
> The people that protested these results were the faithfully > me because
Dartek
> There are people that feel the need to lie, slander and defame others to
>protect and promote their beloved Amiga/Toaster/Flyer.
>
>Ed Bennett
>e...@primenet.com
>
>
Hey Ed, give it a rest.
Dar
Jeffery S. Jones
On 31 Oct 1997 21:50:01 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jeffery S. Jones wrote:
>
>> The Flyer will pass -- in real life work -- 6 MHz directly from an
>> outside source to output, with CG and effects added. Does this all
>> the time, assuming that you don't need to digitize it to the hard
>> drive. In a hybrid linear-NLE environment, this is quite good
>> quality.
>
>This is a bit misleading. The Flyer is the NLE component of the system.
> It digitizes video, stores it on hard disks and controls it's playback
>through the Toaster triggering transitions and effects in real time.
>You are talking about the Toaster only, which is basicly a computer
>controlled composite SEG/switcher. All video from the Flyer is limited
>to 4.2 MHz, 4.8 MB/s. You can't do NLE without the Flyer.
But you can do video work without having to use the Flyer component,
and the Toaster can do 6Mhz bandwidth.
It is misleading only if you misunderstood what I said.
>Also, as I understand it, the Flyer doesn't have any machine control.
>That wouldn't make for a very good hybrid solution if you had to
>manually control your deck during editing. Is there some thrid party
>app that adds machine control to the Flyer that would allow hybrid
>editing? It might also look pretty awkward intermixing Flyer (4.2 MHz)
>clips with tape clips at 5~6 MHz.
>
>Sorry Jeff, I think this is quite a stretch.
Well, the Flyer has had 3rd party machine control for quite some
time -- two years at least. And I don't feel that mixing clips is an
awkward solution; in fact, this is a fairly common solution for hybrid
NLE systems. Other than a very few uncompressed systems, no NLE is
completely lossless. But it can be quite good enough, especially
since it applies during switching transitions and layering effects
only.
And for a lot of work, especially in an SVHS environment, even
4.2MHz bandwidth is good enough (compared to multi-geneneration linear
work).
>> HQ6 has also been demonstrated, and achieves a higher bandwidth than
>> HQ5, without the 4.2MHz limit. This falls into the realm of beta
>> testing, but it certainly is outside of the area of lab bench tests.
>
>The word here has been that v.5 of the Flyer, including HQ6 will never
>come to pass. All the people that I know of that are likely candidates
>for beta testing have voiced their disapapointment at the anouncement
>saying there will be no v.5. Is development going to continue until v.5
>is released or have they stopped altogether as we heard in the initial
>report?
What word is that? Nothing from Newtek has indicated that it will
never happen, and they have affirmed their intent to ensure that
version 5 will be released in some form. And also, that development
may resume.
And I haven't seen that many likely beta testers and developers post
on this as yet, certainly nothing definitive.
Why would you wish to claim, outside your own knowledge, what Newtek
does not?
>> On the other issues, regarding the delivery of the promised
>> uncompressed D2 equivalent ability, I would also like to know if it
>> can be delivered as promised. But I would find the 6MHz bandwidth
>> that the linear portion of the machine supports to be sufficient.
>
>Uncompressed D2 comes in at 14.3 MB/s. Lossless D2 (compressed using a
>lossless algorithm) would likely come in at about 8 MB/s (as advertised
>but not delivered).
Oops, yes, lossless is what I meant, and it would be quite good.
>> Specs should be qualified for working users. But other gear also
>> quotes numbers that apply only in some situations. It is not as
>> though users with test equipment and good quality decks cannot measure
>> for themselves, and make valid complaints against Newtek if it doesn't
>> measure up.
>
>Specs should reflect what the product is capable of. The "Truth in
>Advertising Act" is quite specific. The manufacturer must be able to
>demonstrate how a typical user can reasonably expect to realize the
>claims made for a product. Otherwise, the claims are false. The
>typical Flyer user has no hope of using the product to record a 6 MHz
>video signal with an 8 MB/s data rate. There are no situations or
>configurations available to users that would enable them to realize the
>claims made for the Flyer.
This issue is a different matter. The printed Flyer promotional
material does not have specifications quoted which are not delivered;
the term "D2 quality" is not a specification as such. D2 datarates,
or bandwidth, would be, but quality is more subjective.
>A lot of Toaster/Flyer advocates justify this by saying that other NLE
>products don't measure up to their claims either (as you have done
>here). I am not aware of any situations as grossly inaccurate as the
>Flyer. In fact, I've extensivly tested the Plum and found it to live up
>to all of it's specs and claims very well.
The claims made to users, from the print advertising, and manuals,
have been kept. The promises made in person at times, (and the
material put on the website) are another matter.
Other than the website material (which I haven't checked lately),
have you seen any other printed, published specifications from Newtek
regarding the Flyer which are not met by its delivered capabilities?
Note: the statement that the Flyer is physically capable of
delivering its promised eventual D2 lossless specs, based on its
hardware capabilities, is probably true. But since this ability is
nearly useless without the use of this level of quality in a
controlled editing environment, it is erroneous only if this is never
delivered.
As a productive user, the only relevance that this improvement may
have to me now is the effect on resale value of our equipment -- or
the value of keeping it longer. There are other choices on the market
now, whereas when the Toaster/Flyer came out, there were not (at
least, nowhere near the same cost).
I am willing to be patient for a while, waiting for word one way or
the other from Newtek and other developers. If good news arrives, it
can only mean good things for Newtek and its supporters -- and on its
future products. If not, the negative comments made so far in panic
may be mild compared to the eventual reaction.
Again, this has no effect whatsoever on what they have already
achieved, nor does it affect what the equipment is being used for now.
I can wait a little while for the future to arrive, and bring clearer
answers.
Myron Achtman
Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jalon wrote:
>>
>> Exactly which NLE's are you referring to that have better quality than the
>> flyer at half the price?
>Specifically, the DPS PVR Perception and the Plum were tested. Both come in
>at under $4000 complete. I suspect that the Targa 2000, and the Media 100 QX
>systems would also outshine the Flyer but they weren't tested.
>Ed Bennett
========================================================
YES, I can concur. Both the DPS PVR and the Plum from Interactive
Images produce significantly better video quality than the Flyer in
its HQ5 mode.
Best regards,
Myron Achtman
ADITA Video Inc.
Visit us at http://www.adita.com
Ed Bennett
FX <pj...@stlnet.com> wrote:
: THANK YOU CHUCK.
: Now will he try to change the rules with you as he did when I brought this up.
What rules are those Paul? You accuse me of changing the "rules" on you?
Since when did you actually discuss the issues about the Toaster/Flyer?
Is this how you explain being trounced? "he changed the rules!" How old
are you?
----------
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
Ed Bennett
FX wrote:
>
> Well I happen to think that the word Cult applies well to any group that goes
> beyond reason to admire and promote a product (like the IBM family of machines)
> to the exclusion of all others, opposing all contrary viewpoints and denying any
> real and tangible shortcomings. I call it "cult marketing" when a company
> strives to develop a group of users that irrationally admire and promote their
> product. Advocating ignorant Amiga bashing is a good example of a "cult
> marketing" technique. Unfortunately, cult marketing is prone to dishonesty
> (propaganda) because no product really deserves the kind of irrational
> veneration that the cult marketer seeks to develop.
Yes, if there were people running around irrationally promoting PCs then
they would fit the definition as well. However, I've never been to any
PC users group meetings, or tradeshows, or seminars where there was Amiga
bashing going on. In fact, the vast majority of people there have never
even heard of the Amiga. The ones that have couldn't give a damn about it.
It's old and outdated and nobody who is busy working on current technology
has time to waste with the Amiga. They would rather make money working on
things that people want to buy.
Basicly, I'm not aware of any PC based cult. Nobody is so attached to any
particular model or architecture or processor or operating system that they
run around putting down the new advances and using lies and deciet to
promote the old stuff.
> Yea you know who I am, You know my machine, and if you are smart, you know
> where 90% of the words above came from. If we are truely guilty of what you
> accuse us of, you have to wonder just exactly where we learned it from, it
> wasn't NewTek, and C= died years ago.
You are an Amiga/Toaster/Flyer fanatic, that's who you are. 90% of your
quote above came from me. You perverted it beyond reason to try to make
your own point. That's a fine example of the dishonesty practiced by
you fanatics. The problem is that you can't even stretch the truth to make
it fit. There is an Amiga community, there is not a PC community.
Questions for you to answer:
1. Who (other than IBM itself) is promoting IBM computers to the exclusion
of all others, opposing all contrary viewpoints and denying any real and
tangible short comings?
2. What company has developed a devoted group of users to irrationally
admire and promote their computers and is advocating ignorant Amiga
bashing?
3. You tell me, do you and your fellow fanatic friends ever participate
in PC or Wintel bashing?
4. When you go to an Amiga/Toaster/Flyer gathering, is there any PC or
Wintel bashing? Do the organizers of the event, and representatives of
the companies that manufacture Amiga products ever participate in this
PC bashing?
5. Did anybody start threads in this newsgroup irrationally promoting
the Amiga? For example: "Buy an Amiga it's the best tool for the job"?
6. Did anyone ever start any threads in this NG irrationally promoting
the PC?
7. Did anybody ever *start* any threads in this NG bashing the Amiga or
the Toaster/Flyer?
Before you answer these with a stupid pack of lies, I want to remind you
that I already know the answers. Any answers that you supply that are
contrary will require evidence. As I've done many times before, I'm
challenging you to do something that will help you realize the difference
between what you have said and the truth. Answer the questions.
> You act as though a few Amigans could possibly tople the IBM/Micro$oft empire.
> This is like the Iatola followers prosicuteing people for Crimes agains god. If
> your god isn't strong enough to defend itself, you don't understand the problem.
I simply answer the threads that you and your fellow fanatics start
(or rudely interrupt). YOU are the ones that are acting like
"IBM/Micro$oft empire" needs to prosecuted for crimes against your
god (Amiga/Toaster/Flyer). You are the one that's upset because I
answered your irrational promotion with the truth: it's a bunch of
old outdated junk. The world of computers and NLE has nothing at all
to fear from the Amiga or the Toaster/Flyer.
> Let He who is without fault cast the first stone.
If the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer fanatics took this to heart, then they wouldn't
start any more of these self serving threads. Let me just list a few examples
for your edification:
Use an Amiga its the best tool for the job
The Best Tool For The Job Part 1
The Best Tool For The Job Part 2
Most Popular NLE - The Video Toaster Flyer
More Info on Video Toaster Flyer Popularity
PLUM - Plump and Pricey - $16,000.00
The Best NLE for $12,000.00 to $15,000.00
Targa 2000 Pro Disappointing
Worthiness and STAYING POWER
Amiga's are easy to use
Why you should buy an Amiga 4000/Flyer for Non Linear Editing
The truth about Amiga
Amiga 97 Show
Amiga's the best? You mean the FLYER so shuttup
Toasters: Protect Your Future- MSNBC Slights Amiga
New Products for the DEAD AMIGA Toaster/Flyer
Amiga vs PC in home video editing
Flyer=Beta
Why Would I Buy a Flyer?
Ed Bennet -- Mr. Myopic
EJB Couldn't answer this. was 704x480 vs 640x480
Plum card overrated?
Oh, and we shouldn't forget to mention the infamous "CHALENGE CHALENGE
CHALENGE" started by none other than yourself. I didn't even begin to
mention the threads that were rudely interrupted by fanatics. I'm not the
one picking up the stones to throw at you, I'm just catching the ones you
have thrown at others and throwing them back.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
FX
On 7 Nov 1997 14:20:00 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>FX <pj...@stlnet.com> wrote:
>
>: THANK YOU CHUCK.
>
>: Now will he try to change the rules with you as he did when I brought this up.
>
>What rules are those Paul? You accuse me of changing the "rules" on you?
>Since when did you actually discuss the issues about the Toaster/Flyer?
>Is this how you explain being trounced? "he changed the rules!" How old
>are you?
Actually I trounced you, I answered you questions to me. I was on topic, and
you posted a message that was completely off topic for that particular point in
the thread.
>
>----------
>Ed Bennett
>e...@primenet.com
Let's see.
You asked me to prove some statements I had been makeing. And I answered on
topic, and answered your questions. Specifically -
In a thread, you asked me to please proove that you are a "Self Proclained
Expert"
I pointed out that outisde of the Toaster group,you post more
Amiga/Toaster/Flyer related messages than Any Amiga Poster.
You also asked me to proove you had either never seen an A/T/F system, or that
when you did you were not paying attention.
I pointed out that you did not know how our system Scrubs video. That your
silly questions about Color Frames, and the fact that you had never metioned it
in the 3 years you have been bashing us, prooved this, and that I had, had to
point out to you that the System monitor is Interlaced.
There were other things that made me ROTFL in thay particular posting, and your
answer was the list of rules listed below.
(paraphrased) Do Not post the following.
1. Reasons why you don't like me.
2. Reasons why you think I'm not qualified to discuss the Toaster/Flyer
3. Reasons why I have no right to have an opinion about the Toaster/Flyer
4. Accusations that I'm a self proclaimed expert
5. Statements that I've never used a Toaster/Flyer
6. Accusations of my calling you an idiot
7. My opinions about your knowledge of video
8. Claims about things that were never said
9. Claims about never saying things that actually were said
10. Posturing about how you are better than me for whatever reason
11. Complaints that you are not being treated fairly
12. Stories of opression, discrimination, and segragation
13. Differences between what you think my opinion is vs. what I said here
14. Wintel bashing
15. Analogies concerning racism, fascism or any other bad-ism.
16. Comparisons between myself and infamously evil characters of history
17. Any other "Ed bashing" topics that you've been using to distract from
the issues
Followed by a completely different posting, that was off topic for that
particular point in the thread, designed to change the subject to something else
entirely, and away from the big goofes you had made.
I found 14 interesting. You can bash the Amiga when you don't own one, and have
not evern seen one for 3 years. But I can't bash the machine that I am typing
this message on, and that I own, and have been using regularly for about 2
years.
Having made a list of Dos and Don'ts for us, can we make one for you?
Actually since you asked me the question, I think It would be on topic to post
the entire Posting from the " VT Flyer. Opinions? " Thread posted on 10/24/97 at
12:44PM Copied from my Agent Reader. Feel free to look it up on Dejanews, and
the posting that followed it in the thread.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 23 Oct 1997 16:18:00 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
IMO & IMHO
In My Opinion, & In My Humble Opinion. Everyone has an opinion. That is all
that we can offer here on the NGs. Opinions are like Buts everyone has one and
a lot of them stink. Ed has problems with the concept of Opinions. Having used
IMO or IMHO you can't argue. I mean are you going to argue that someone can't
have an opinion. Are you going to argue that someone can't have that specific
opinion. Are you going to argue that his statement is not his opinion. If you
are looking for a fight, it's realy hard to fight with opinions. You can point
out that an opinion stinks, but all you have done is express your own opinion.
>FX wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:43:17 -0600, Ed Bennett <nos...@hostname.com> wrote:
>>
>> >FX wrote:
>> >
>> >> I wasn't trounced, I just have a higher opinion of the rest of the groups overal
>> >> intelligences than you do.
>> >
>> >Oh, at first you said that you were going to bail out because of your
>> >pride.
>>
>> Yep I didn't feel your statements deserved a reply. They were so stupid, they
>> were beneath me, I didn't want to waste the NGs time and bandwidth. Anyone who
>> takes your replies to an Amigan at face value, should start reading exactly what
>> the original post said. What Ed doesn't answer, and what parts of what we say
>> that he does answer are sometimes more interesting that the answer. Read on for
>> examples.
>
>Basicly, you don't feel that statements showing your own contradictory quotes
>as evidence that you are a liar deserve a reply?
Ed you have stated your opinion that I am a liar. Once again you have mistaken
me for someone with a high IGAS factor in this reguard. ( I Give A S***)
You don't have to prove anything to me, just to the rest of the group.
>
>I would applaud anyone who would compare my responses with what was originally
>written. I'd also like them to compare what you say from one day to the next and see
>how much you lie. You claim to provide examples in this message of how I twist
>things? Geez, I read this lame slober and didn't see any.
Your opinion again.
>Why don't we dredge up
>what you choose not to reply to? How do you answer to all the pointed questions and
>challenges that I've issued to you? How do you answer to the charge of being a liar?
> How do you dismiss the direct quotes proving that you are a liar? You don't. You
>just ignore them as if they never happened.
I don't waste the Groups time with useless Flame Wars.
>
>I continue to maintain that you are the ultimate expression of what you accuse me of.
What am I acuseing you of being. I have stated on what 3 or 4 occations that
IMO you are very knowledgeable in the IBM and it's workings. And that you put a
negative spin on things Amiga. I don't have to document this, it is self
evident to anyone who has read your work.
>
>> > Now you're saying that you're bailing out because you have a
>> >higher "opinion" of this group's "overall" "intelligence" (whatever the
>> >hell that means).
I didn't bail out, I answered the posting.
>>
>> Yep you would have problems with that.
>
>Not unless you want to argue about being called a stupid liar.
You still think IGAS about your opinion of me. I don't try to change peoples
Opinions. I give my opinion, free, to do with as you choose. I will not call
you any names if you do not agree with me.
>
>> >Got any more excuses? I called you a liar and
>> >compared your statements to the truth. How do you answer? Can you
>> >answer?
>>
>> I did in the other Flyer Opinions thread, the one that this conversation is on
>> topic in.
>
>You didn't answer at all. Just because you say you answered doesn't mean that you
>did. I called you a liar and provided exact quotes to prove it. Unless you can show
>those quotes to be false then you haven't answered the charges.
Opinion.
>
>> >
>> >> Ed based on these statements, I can say that based on my experience with word
>> >> pad, and the fact that I know my Klone has a Pentium in it, therefore I know
>> >> everything, in fact everyone in the group knows all there is to know about the
>> >> operation of their IBM based computers. QED We can now close down this and all
>> >> the other IBM based NGs, Ed says so. Well this will certainly clear up a lot of
>> >> band width on the net, and I can now throw away all those manuals, journals, and
>> >> actually walk to the other side of the room now. This will change everything.
>> >
>> >Forgive me for not being able to follow your trane of thought (or lack
>> >thereof).
>>
>> Maybe if you had left the rest of the posting you would be able to follow it.
>> This is a prime example of your lack of understanding of the intelligence of the
>> rest of the group. Do you really think they didn't read my post, and see what
>> it was I was trying to say. You didn't even put in a "<snip>"
>
>OK Genius,
Thank you. (I'll take what ever I can get. Can I quote you in future postings?
I forgot you don't like people to treat you as you treat them.)
> explain what the hell you were trying to prove. As far as I could see, you
>were trying to show the folly of my claiming to be an expert on the
>Amiga/Toaster/Flyer. But I never claimed to be an expert. I never said that what I
>did made me an expert. This is a stupid fabrication that you invented to try to
>discredit me. You think that I'll fall for this nonsense because you think I'm as
>stupid as you are.
IMO the others in the group understood exactly what I was saying.
>
>> > Tony said that I had "NEVER" used an Amiga.
How exactly do you define USED an Amiga. If I state I saw a CREY computer at
the Science Center, and I pushed the buttons on the back, and I leaned on it
while I conversed with my son, Can I say I used the CREY, and am now quailifed
to make sweeping statements abou it?
And by prefacing the above statement with "If I state" haven't I put in a
qualifer which means that I may not have seen a CREY or leaned against it, and
that I might not even have been in a Science Center, makeing it only a
hypothetical statement.
>> >I gave him an
>> >example of a situation that would prove his statement wrong.
But you put so many qualifiers in it, it became a non statement. You didn't say
I used a Word processor, or it's equivalent, on the Amiga, you didn't even say
that a salesman sat you down and led you through editing on the amiga,
And No IMHO If you had done the above It would not make you the expert your
shear volume of postings about the A/T/F implies you think you are.
>> > I didn't
>> >claim that using an Amiga made me an expert, knowing everything about
>> >the Amiga. Tony claimed that I knew nothing about the operation of the
>> >Amiga. I responded with an example of knowledge that proves this
>> >statement wrong as well.
You didn't even claim to haveing the knowledge, you prefaced everything with "If
I said"
>> >Again, no claim was made about expertise or
>> >exhaustive knowledge.
>>
>> I'll prove your claim to expertise later.
And IMHO I did.
>
>What a bunch of stupid bullshit. Geez, you don't have the slightest clue of what
>proof is. You blabber a bunch of nonsense, most of which has no discernable logic.
Your opinion.
>You provide no evidence for your claims.
No you provided the evidence. You can't refute it, so now it contains no logic.
I'm sure there are others in the Group who see the logic of my statements.
>Then you call it proof. Geez you're really
>very pathetic. You calim to respect the intelligence of the NG and you pull this sort
>of crap? You say you don't want to waste bandwidth and you spout this nonsense?
>Pretty damn lame!
You are entitled to your opinions.
>
>> >
>> >Once again, you have lied. This time, it's a lie of exaggeration.
>>
>> Binary thinking again. Good Bad, no in between. Either he said it in DejeNews,
>> or he didn't, We can read between the lines Ed.
>
>Oh, is this how you answer an accusation that you are a liar? Why don't you prove me
>wrong? Why don't you show how you didn't exaggerate? You just dismiss it without any
>answer. Just this stupid "Binary thinking" nonsense.
>
>> <SNIP more of the same>
>
>You can't comprehend it so you dismiss it. Just snip it out because it's far beyond
>your mental abilities.
>
>> >> >and you'd be a liar again.
>> >> > And, if
Well did they are didn't they?
You see you didn't say anything here. You didn't proove anything. because the
"And if" makes it a non statement.
>> >> >someone, while giving me a demonstration
>> >> >of the Flyer, told me to sit down and follow his directions to accomplish
>> >> >something then your point #3 would be wrong and you'd be a liar three
>> >> >times over.
>> >>
>> >> Well actually if you had paid attention, this statement would mean a whole lot
>> >> more, but our discussion about color frames proved you weren't paying attention
>> >> here.
>> >
>> >Here's a point that you continually refuse to answer. I've seen the
>> >Flyer demonstrated and didn't need to be educated in the concept of
>> >color frames to understand what was going on. Myron says that he
>> >teaches people to use the Flyer all the time and that they don't have to
>> >concern themselves with concepts of color frames. You think that since
>> >I didn't understand the idea of color frames that I've never seen or
>> >used a Flyer. Why don't you explain why you think it's impossible to
>> >use a Flyer without a full understanding of the concept of color
>> >frames. It doesn't matter what bad things you can claim about me to try
>> >to discredit me if you cannot answer the point. Quit ignoring the issue
>> >and answer this point.
>>
>> You don't need understanding of Color Frames to use a Flyer, an I never said you
>> do,
>
>Another stupid lie. Don't you ever get tired of this? I certainly do.
>
>>> Subject: EJB Couldn't answer this. was 704x480 vs 640x480
>>> From: pjn...@stlnet.com (FX)
>>> Date: 1997/08/04
>>> Message-ID: <33e729a5...@snews.zippo.com>
>>> Newsgroups: rec.video.desktop.toaster,rec.video.desktop...
>>> In the thread this started in, we learned that Eddy doesn't understand Color
>>> Frames, thus proving that he had never seen an A/T/F system actually edit video,
>>> so he never could have actually seen the video output first hand.
All your questions prooved to me that you have never experienced Color Frame
Flicker.
>
>You'd pretty much have to see a Toaster/Flyer to use it, right Paul? According to you
>here, if you don't understand color frames then you can't have seen an A/T/F system
>edit video. Why do you lie so much Paul? This is pathetic.
You don't understand what I said, or refuse to understand what I said, but
either way it becomes a Lie.
But you haven't said you actually saw one. You have only given me "WHAT IF"s
What if I said Ed's a SOB? Now I didn't actually question Ed's parentage here,
I just said What if. (And I am not calling Ed a SOB here, just makeing a point)
>
>> but lack of understanding does proove something else. In another thread
>> AFTER I informed you that the amiga uses an interlaced computer display, you
>> described it as a "crappy display" Later it took several postinges to finally
>> get you to understand how we edit video on Color Frames boundaries, and I still
>> don't think you know what I see on my Program output screen when I scrub video.
>> I see a Color Frame, I see 4 FIELDS CYCLING. If you had ever seen this, the
>> above concept of editing to Color Frame boundaries would not have taken so long
>> to explain to you.
>
>Huh? Are you saying that seeing a cheap, crappy, lame interlaced monitor flickering
>is going to automaticly help me (or anyone else) understand that it's because of color
>framing and "4 FIELDS CYCLING"?
It is UNIQUE, no other system does this. Now you claim to a constant search for
Knowledge, Why didn't you ask someone just exactly what this is? No by your own
admission, with out knowing what is going on, you just labled it "cheap, crappy
and lame" Does anyone else see an inconcistacy here. And by Ed's above
discription doesn't this quailify for the L lable?
>You don't think that someone might just look at it
>and say "geez, what a crappy display. How can they want $7500 for this piece of
>shit".
>
>>
>> IF you had actually seen an Amiga, I would not have had to explain the
>> interlaced computer monitor (or are you now going to say it looked pretty good
>> and had no flicker) , and IF you had seen and PAID ATTENTION to the
>> demonstration of the Flyer, you would have seen the Color Frame on the Program
>> monitor.
>
>In an attempt to educate your feeble mind, not all flicker is due to interlacing.
>When I have seen an Amiga display, I just assumed (correctly I might add) that it's
>just old junk.
Opinion
> It just has low resolution and a low refresh rate. Seeing a
>flickering screen doesn't automaticly mean that it's interlaced. If someone doesn't
>automaticly guess that the flicker is due to interlacing it doesn't make them a moron
>or a liar.
>
>> AND, if in your opinion, straight Interlace flicker is "Crappy" WHAT is a 4
>> field flicker???
>
>Hey, I've seen plenty of analog composite linear systems that didn't suffer from this
>sort of crap.
> When I pause my VCR and use the jog/shuttle to scan through frames, I
>don't see such pathetic flickering on my NTSC monitor. Why? Does my $4000 SVHS vcr
>handle the display of color frames better than your $10K Amiga/Toaster/Flyer? Yes, it
>probably does.
And probably just like my $300 VHS machine.
Pausing a VCR ONLY DISPLAYS ONE FIELD. I'm ROTFL Come on friend this is basic
stuff. Internally the one field is changed into a Frame by displaying the
single field twice, and if you want to talk about resolution, it only has 240
lines of Vertical resolution.
>
>> Now you have made it perfectly clear what you think of the Amiga "Junk" and it's
>> users "fools" So why haven't you pointed this 4 field flicker out to potential
>> buyers of the system before now?
>
>Because, seeing a low rez, low refresh rate monitor
Are you talking about my Program Out Monitor here. If so you are mistaken, It
is a Hight res monitor, showing twice the Vertical resolution of your Anilog
Linear system you discribed above.
>doesn't automaticly lead one to conclude that it's due to a "4 field flicker".
>It just leads me to believe that it's
>junk. Overpriced, stupid, outdated junk.
Opinion.
But you still haven't answered the original question. "why haven't you pointed
this 4 field flicker out to potential buyers of the system before now?"
>
>People aren't fools just because they use an Amiga. A fool is a person that can't
>learn, even from experience.
>
>> I think this proves that IF you did see our system, you weren't paying
>> attention.
>
>So, if i were "paying attention" then I would have automaticly known that the flicker
>was from interlacing? I would have automaticly known that the flicker on the "program
>monitor" was from the "4 field flicker"?
I still can't figure out why you didn't ask someone. But since you had to have
Color Frames explained to you well after you aledgidly saw it, Then you
couldn't have known that it was Color Frames. But If you had seen it, you
wouldn't have had to ask me how we handle it. It would have been self evident,
you would have said to yourseld, Oh that's why the program monitor was
flickering. Well that explains a lot.
I can only assume from your responces that you didn't see it, or you weren't
paying attention.
>This is "proof"? I don't think so.
I think it is proof enough, and I'm sure others agree with me. If nothing else
it's reasonable doubt.
> Here's what any normal person would conclude:
There you go again, trying to define normal, so that it would include yourself.
>"it's old computer junk". And, after seeing
>the price tag and comparing it to modern computers and editing systems, the normal
>person would conclude: "it's expensive and over-priced old computer junk". If you
>think that this is "proof" or even the slightest bit of evidence that I haven't seen
>the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer you're hopeless. How do you think I developed such a poor
>opinion of the thing to begin with?
Poor upbringing, specifically you were trained by IBM. I would guess that it is
very IBMcentric. The computer training I recieved was like that. But I'm only
trying to give you an out. It's not realy your fault Ed, IBM did it.
>
>> >
>> >> Note he did not say he actually ever did any of the above, but there is a
>> >> pattern here of Black and White, Right and Wrong, Ed appears to be binary in his
>> >> thinking. Hope fully at some point he will grown up and learn that there are a
>> >> lot of shades of gray in the world.
>> >
>> >Your understanding of what you read is extremely infantile. I didn't
>> >make the "black and white" statements, I just demonstrated their folly.
>> >Tony made the black and white statements.
All your statements about liars are very black and white. But it realy comes
down to Win and Loose. You don't recognize Win Win situations of Loose Loose
situations.
>>
>> Which I have just proven.
>
>Huh? You didn't prove anything.
More Opinions.
>
>> <SNIP discussion of logic, and more insults>
>
>Of course, you don't want to address any of the issues. They exceed your mental
>capacity. Just snip them out. Call them "insults" because they question your ability
>to follow the simplest deductive reasoning.
More Opinions. (aren't clipboards neat?)
>
>> >> >
>> >> >> So here you have this self-proclaimed know-it-all telling everyone about
>> >> >> how it is not worth buying.
>> >> >
>> >> >Ahhh, here we go with another lie. If I proclaimed myself as a
>> >> >"know-it-all" about the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer, then you'd be able to produce
>> >> >evidence of such.
>>
>> I will
>
>Where? I don't see it.--
I understand there is a video tape set out called "hooked on phonics", you might
want to look into this.
>
>> >>
>> >> Friend there isn't enough bandwidth on the NG to prove this statement, suffice to
>> >> say anyone who has read your post for any length of time sees the truth of this
>> >> statement. You have even started posting in threads where no one says Superior,
>> >> or Best with reguard to the A/T/F system.
>> >
>> >There isn't a byte of evidence in all of Usenet to prove the statement.
>> >I didn't even pretend to be an "expert" on the Toaster/Flyer or the
>> >Amiga. Why don't you want to address what I did say about the Flyer
>> >rather than harp on me about things I didn't ever say? Why can't you
>> >point out what's wrong with my statements instead of making up false
>> >statements and attributing them to me? And what does your last sentance
>> >have to do with my alleged proclaimation of expertise?
>>
>> It has everything to do with it, and the evidence is all over DejeNews.
>>
>> It used to be that if the words Superior or Best were in the same posting with
>> the words Amiga or Toaster or Flyer, then there's Ed, Champion of the other
>> NLEs. Now all we have to do is talk in the Non Toaster NG and there you are.
>> It's your shear volume that proves me right. Except for the Toaster NG You have
>> more postings in Amiga/Toaster/Flyer threads than any single Amiga User out
>> here. If this doesn't make you a self proclaimed expert, I don't know what
>> does.
>
>This is a proof?
Yep
>
>> <SNIP discussion about lies>
>
>Of course you snip these, you can't stand them. You must snip them and ignore them
>because they are true and you don't want to face them.
More Opinions.
>
>> >
>> >> Finally we hear a lot about Brainless Absolute Statements here. Ed I wish you
>> >> would stop using that Brainless Absolute Statement, that everyone who disagrees
>> >> with you, or catches you in a mistake is a liar. That is the B.A.S to end all
>> >> B.A.S., and it is a sure sign of Binary Thinking.
>> >
>> >Excuse me. I never ever said that "everyone who disagrees with me or
>> >catches me in a mistake is a liar." Here's yet another example of a
>> >false statement that you have dreamed up and attributed to me in an
>> >effort to make me look bad. The truth is that there are plenty of
>> >examples to the contrary, even in this thread.
>> >
>> >When I call you a liar, it's always accompanied by proof that what
>> >you've said is not true.
>>
>> And if the whole posting is read, the statement means something entirely
>> different.
>
>
>You just wish it did. Saying so doesn't make it so. Unless you actually show how I
>mis quoted you or took your words out of context, they stand as they are: LIES.
Opinion
>
>
>> >The problem is that you're so anxious to try
>> >to make me look bad,
>>
>> <SNIP Ed's paranoiac ramblings about me trying to discredit him
>
>
>Oh, snip again is it? Don't want to admit that you don't have a shread of evidence to
>back up all your claims against me? Don't want to see anyone exposing your stupid
>lies for what they are: SLANDER?
>
>
>> Ed this is not a compliment. It is a statement of fact.
>>
>> In things related to the IBM I feel you are very intelligent. You have the
>> answers. Share this knowledge. BUT unlike you I feel the NGs are big enough
>> for all of us, Amiga and IBM users alike. I don't want you to go away. In
>> things Amiga you have a lot to learn, as I have proven above. IMHO we don't
>> need your help, we don't want your help. We're sick of hearing from you. And
>> if you went out and bought an Amiga today, we still wouldn't want to hear from
>> you.
>
>So what? I'm not offering you any help. I don't want to be part of your stupid
>pathetic cult of obsolete and lame computers.
You're right you don't try to help, you just troll for arguements.
>
>> If you truly want to help people, find some IBM crappy NLEs (don't tell me they
>> don't exist ) and start a crusade against them. Treat them the same as you
>> treat us, But let them know whether you have actually used one before you start,
>> and if you haven't, pay close attention to how they treat you.
You missed the point of the very last sentence
>
>As soon as they make stupid claims of superiority I will. However, this isn't likely
>to happen as most people using modern PC and Mac based NLE systems aren't self deluded
>into thinking that it's the best. They also didn't waste a life's savings on it and
>feel obligated to justify such a stupid purchase.
This is a reference to the fact that I spent $20K on my system. This took 4
years, and dates back to when 9Gig Video HDs were $2.5K, and there was no
comparable system in either IBM or MAC that cost 20K or less. The Flyer and
it's HDs and Drive In cabinet cost me Aprox $10K, which I got back in the first
5 weeks of use. Of course, like your system, you can duplicate mine for about
$13K now. The price of everyting goes down.
>
>> But I am a realist, and not an idiot. You won't do the above. So at least
>> preface any statements to NewBees with something like
>>
>> "I have very little actual experience with an Amiga, and I am biased because I
>> am an IBM trained engineer, but my opinion on the Amiga is. . . . ."
>>
>> This is not a hard statement to make, I do it all the time when dealing with
>> someone who doesn't know me and gets into a computer discussion with me. And I
>> suspect that you can say it better than the amigan following you in the thread,
>> and who will tell the NewBe the same thing, but with different words. All this
>> assumes that you really wan to discuss things, and are not looking for an
>> arguments, and not trying to piss people off.
>
>I have included disclaimers in my statements.
But not nearly enough, or to the right people. Eg the PC NLE vs Flyer thread
going on right now.
> Still, you and your fanatical friends don't take issue with the facts that I raise.
I did in the above mentioned thread.
>You insist on trying to discredit me personally.
I ,personally, have not tried to discredit you personally, just in things Amiga
related.
>I've been compared to Hitler,
Not me.
>called a racist,
Not me.
>a facist,
Not me.
>an idiot,
I gave my opinion that it is idiotic to think I am going to spend money to prove
something I already believe in.
>and many other things.
That cover a lot. I'll pass on that.
>But you and your gang don't address the actual points that I raise.
As I said I did.
>
>> Acting like an idiot : Telling me to go out and rent Beta/test equipment, spend
>> my hard earned money, to prove a point that you want to make, that I happen to
>> agree with, so you can say "Paul says so". Thinking that I would actually do
>> the above, and then continually telling everyone I have no integrity because I
>> wouldn't do it. That's Acting like an idiot.
>
>"Agree with"? You really have to be kidding. You were accusing the video equipment
>manufacturers of conspiring with the magazines to convince the industry that component
>was better than composite just so that they could charge more for the equipment.
>Here's exactly what you said:
>
>>> Subject: Re: 704x480 vs 640x480
>>> From: pjn...@stlnet.com (FX)
>>> Date: 1997/07/25
>>> Message-ID: <33da0f14...@snews.zippo.com>...
>>> "If it cost more it must be better" You have just defined the bigest problem
>>> with Component. And it's not just our customers, we the video editors have
>>> fallen for this propaganda too. How much can it cost to drill a hole and put
>>> another connector on the equipment? Add to this customers who are too stupid
>>> to tell the difference. Other customers who look at the make of the monitor,
>>> and judge the quaility of your work based on that name....
>>> There are just so many CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX jobs out there. The majority of the jobs
>>> just don't call for component. IMHO the price of all the component items does
^^^^^^^^
>>> not justify the increase in cost I will have to pass on to my customers, for
>>> something that most of them can not see. IMHO the idea that I can not give just
^^^^^^^
>>> as good a finished product to the customer with composite is the bigest
>>> propoganda ploy out there.
I belive I was expressing my opinion. What is the arguement?
But I believe this was after a discussion in which you said you too couldn't
justify the high cost of component equipment.
I don't remember which of us actually pointed out that in a Composite Camera or
Monitor, that somewhere in the encoding/decoding process, there were available
RGB signals, Component signals, and finally SVideo signals.
>
> - and -
>
>>> Subject: Re: 704x480 vs 640x480
>>> From: pjn...@stlnet.com (FX)
>>> Date: 1997/07/31
>>> Message-ID: <33e8b5d5...@snews.zippo.com>
33da0f14...@snews.zippo.com
>>> Newsgroups: rec.video.desktop...
>>> I am not telling anyone to change their monitors, or editing system I have not
>>> said anything is better. I am justifying my system here, just as you are
>>> justifying yours. I am using logic. Consider where you get your information.
>>> Propaganda written in Video magazines, sponsored by Video manufacturers who have
>>> a big investment in old technology, and keeping customers paying big bucks for
>>> something that is in all monitors and cameras as you point out in the next
>>> paragraph.
Yep you said it in the next paragraph.
>
>> Being an idiot:- If I actually went out and spend my hard earned money and did
>> your test for you.
>>
>> Yea, I know the difference.
>
>Of course you do Paul. That's why you said the things that I quoted above. You have
>no argument about the quality of component video, right?
I don't believe I was argueing the quality of component, just that it was not
necessary in every editing situation.
>thought you could just drill another hole and put in another connector and call it
>component without charging any extra.
I know that at some point in discussions with you, You said you could not
justify the high cost of component equipment, and if you don't think they have
the same chasis inside a lot of the boxes, with different hook ups, but charge
more because we can call this one a component system, and this one an SVideo
system, you are the one who needs a reality check. If you as an engineer had a
good design on a monitor, and some one asked for a hookup that you didn't have
are you going to redesign a whole new monitor just so you can put a new hook up
on the outside.
>That guy is a damn liar. Now, don't forget to
>take your Thorazine today, it will help control these lapses from reality.
>
More Opinion.
>>
>> OPINION I have stated that IMHO I feel the Amiga OS is superior to Win 95. (I
>> can say this, because I own and use both regularly) Ed has quoted me on this.
>> Saying I can no longer use my disclaimer that I am not claiming any system is
>> superior. What he failed to mention is that I followed this statement with
>> statements to the effect that I was not telling anyone to get another system,
>> nor calling others fools for owning them, and that I understand that it is
>> very hard to change OS or Computers, something akin to changing Religions or
>> Political parties. This is another example of Ed's Editing.
>
>Oh, pardon me for taking what you say seriously. Excuse me for thinking you mean what
>you say. From now on, we will all just assume that you babble random nonsense. That
>will be easier on everyone.
Ed are you giving us your opinion, or are you admitting to be the self
proclaimed knowitall I have been accusing you of being. NO ONE has all the
answers. All any of us can give is our opinion. And there is nothing wrong
with this.
The other thread with the PC vs Amiga in a school. We don't know if he already
has an Amiga, or an IBM. Is he going to have to deal with some IBMcentric bean
counter? These are all things are pertinent to what system he buys. He is
looking for opinions, so he can make a dicission.
>
>> Polite people don't discuss religion or politics in public, unless they are
>> looking for a fight. And I learned a long time ago not to put down other
>> peoples OS or computers, and I did not do this in the above statement or the
>> earlier post. I will state my opinions, but I won't call you a fool for not
>> following them. All any of us can give here are our opinions. And no ones
>> opinions are any better or worst than any one else. We all look at the source
>> and make our decisions. That's life. You know me, you have read my work, you
>> know I am not calling anyone a fool, or their equipment junk, You also know Ed,
>> and have read his work. If you believe Ed's opinion that I have no integrity,
>> and am constantly lieing, well there's not much more I can do about it, and I
>> refuse to worry about it or waste any more time or band width on it. I only ask
>> that you plese consider the source.
>
>What a bunch of nonsense. Nobody has to believe or disbelieve what I say based on my
>reputation. I provide the proof with my statements.
Like when you failed to point out to the gentilman refered to above, that
overlaying Text is an effect, and has to be rendered.
> You, on the other hand, just
>make things up as you go, believing that if you say it, it must be true in spite of
>the facts. Yes, consider the source and also consider the evidence. Paul lies, I
>expose the lies with proof, and Paul ignores the proof in favor of stupid nonsense
>like the paragraph above.
Paul experesses his opinion. Paul does not knowingly lie. Ed has been caught
in a few mistakes by Paul, and Ed doesn't like this, so lets get Paul to shut
up, and discredit everything he says.
>
>> One more thing Ed. My friends call me Paul. You can call me FX.
>
>Sorry Paul, I can call you any damn thing I want to.
But I can't call you an Idiot?
>You should feel lucky that I use
>your name. It's better than being called an idiot,
I experessed my opinion that it would have been idiotic to follow your course of
action.
>a racist, a facist,
Never called you that.
> a bigiot,
I have also expressed the opinion that some of your statements are
bigioted/IBMcentric
>a fool,
I don't think I have ever used that to refere to you in print, but considering
how many times you have called us Fools It wouldn't surprised me if some one
else called you one. But of course we can't give you the same treatment you
give us.
>or any of the other names you and your fellow fanatics have
>called me over the last few weeks. Obviously, you don't deserve the respect that
>comes with someone calling you by your own name, Paul.
And you don't deserive the familiarity that goes with it.
>The only thing I add to it is
>"liar" because you refuse to tell or admit the truth. A fact, by the way, that I have
>proven many times with evidence that you cannot refute.
>
Opinion
FX
>--
>Ed Bennett
>e...@primenet.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FX
Ed Bennett
So, you think that I didn't answer your pathetic message because I couldn't? You thought that I was trounced? Well
then, why not just sit back and relax while I compare your little fantasy here with reality.
FX wrote:
> On 7 Nov 1997 14:20:00 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >FX <pj...@stlnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >: THANK YOU CHUCK.
> >
> >: Now will he try to change the rules with you as he did when I brought this up.
> >
> >What rules are those Paul? You accuse me of changing the "rules" on you?
> >Since when did you actually discuss the issues about the Toaster/Flyer?
> >Is this how you explain being trounced? "he changed the rules!" How old
> >are you?
>
> Actually I trounced you, I answered you questions to me. I was on topic, and
> you posted a message that was completely off topic for that particular point in
> the thread.
If you want to know the topic of a thread Paul, then read the subject line. According to my news reader, and
everyone else's, the subject didn't read: "Ed's qualifications to make comments on the Toaster/Flyer". It also
didn't read: "Ed's claims about his own expertise when it comes to the Toaster/Flyer". Nor did it read "Ed's lack
of experience when it comes to using the Toaster/Flyer." Where did all these topics come from? They came from you.
It was you dragging the discussion off topic, just like you are doing here. As I look at the subject of this thread,
I don't see anything remotely resembling "How Ed changes the subject to save himself from topics that he can't
discuss". It's about how NewTek has postponed development on the Amiga based Flyer. So, unless you are talking
about NewTek, the Flyer, or their development thereof, then YOU ARE OFF TOPIC.
Now, Paul, lest you think that this is a personal attack, let me assure you that I have complete confidence in your
ability to read the above paragraph and eventually understand what it says. However, just in case you fail to
succeed at this task, I'll provide a quick and easy summary for you:
You are the one that drags conversations off topic. The Toaster/Flyer opinion thread is a good example and your
message right here is another good example.
As for you having answered my questions, I don't think so. I'd prefer to call it ramblings and lame protests with
indications of ignorance and juvenile reasoning.
> >
> >----------
> >Ed Bennett
> >e...@primenet.com
Did you ever stop to think that quoting signatures is pretty damn stupid? Just a suggestion...
> Let's see.
>
> You asked me to prove some statements I had been makeing. And I answered on
> topic, and answered your questions. Specifically -
>
> In a thread, you asked me to please proove that you are a "Self Proclained
> Expert"
>
> I pointed out that outisde of the Toaster group,you post more
> Amiga/Toaster/Flyer related messages than Any Amiga Poster.
As I said in an earlier reply, this isn't proof. Proof requires evidence that leads to a singular conclusion. Your
evidence has no definite conclusion. You simply point out that I post a lot of messages on the topic of the
Amiga/Toaster/Flyer. Perhaps even you can figure out how to draw more than one conclusion from this evidence. Let
me help you.
* Maybe I enjoy talking about the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer
* Maybe I get a charge out of seeing you and your fanatic friends upset
* Maybe I just hate seeing people make claims about something that aren't true
* Maybe I don't like seeing people get fooled into buying an expensive piece of junk
* Maybe I just like to keep my debate skills sharp
* Maybe it's all of the above!
* Maybe there are even more possible reasons!
Now, could it be that I post a lot of messages about the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer because I think I'm an expert on the
topic? Yes, that possibility does exist. However, what I think and what I say are two different things (i.e., not
the same). You accused me of being a "self proclaimed expert" on the Amiga/Toaster/Flyer. In order for this to be
true three things must also be true:
* I must have made a proclamation
* The proclamation must have been about myself
* The content had to include an attribution of expertise
If your evidence doesn't contain all three of these elements, then it cannot lead to the singular conclusion that I'm
a self proclaimed expert. In fact, if your evidence doesn't contain even one of these then it's completely
irrelevant. Perhaps you can say that you think I'm a "know it all" but there is no evidence for my being a "self
proclaimed expert".
Perhaps if you read it over and over again, the above might begin to make some sense to you. Let me summarize it in
a simpler way for you:
The fact that I post a lot of messages on a particular topic doesn't prove that I have made any particular
statement. Specifically, it doesn't prove that I have proclaimed myself an expert on the
Amiga/Toaster/Flyer.
> You also asked me to proove you had either never seen an A/T/F system, or that
> when you did you were not paying attention.
I never said anything about proving whether I was paying attention or not. You claimed that I had never seen one. I
claim that you are lying. Whether I was paying attention or knew what I was looking at is an irrelevant piece of
information that you have inserted to try to make such an absurd assertion more reasonable. Having "seen one"
doesn't carry any implications of knowledge or expertise or understanding. Perhaps if you had been thinking at the
time, you wouldn't have made such a stupid claim.
> I pointed out that you did not know how our system Scrubs video. That your
> silly questions about Color Frames, and the fact that you had never metioned it
> in the 3 years you have been bashing us, prooved this, and that I had, had to
> point out to you that the System monitor is Interlaced
Again, a proof has to contain evidence that leads to a singular conclusion. You do not know how D2 video works but
that hasn't ever stopped you from seeing a Toaster/Flyer much less using one. You don't know how 4:2:2 video is
encoded but that doesn't say anything about which NLE systems you have seen and which ones you haven't. You have
claimed over and over again that MJPEG is blocky and full of artifacts but does that prove that you have never seen
it? No, of course not. In fact, you have no idea how MJPEG works at all and it doesn't mean a damn thing about your
experience with any NLE system. So it is with the concept of color frames. You can still look at a Toaster/Flyer
even though you have no idea what a color frame is.
Just think how absurd your "proof" is: In order for your proof to be true, there would need to be some way to
restrain people from seeing a Toaster/Flyer unless they understood how it scrubs video and how color frames work.
By the way, since when did little more than a year suddenly become "three years" of bashing? More stupid ignorant
lies Paul?
> There were other things that made me ROTFL in thay particular posting, and your
> answer was the list of rules listed below.
>
> (paraphrased) Do Not post the following.
>
> 1. Reasons why you don't like me.
> 2. Reasons why you think I'm not qualified to discuss the Toaster/Flyer
> 3. Reasons why I have no right to have an opinion about the Toaster/Flyer
> 4. Accusations that I'm a self proclaimed expert
> 5. Statements that I've never used a Toaster/Flyer
> 6. Accusations of my calling you an idiot
> 7. My opinions about your knowledge of video
> 8. Claims about things that were never said
> 9. Claims about never saying things that actually were said
> 10. Posturing about how you are better than me for whatever reason
> 11. Complaints that you are not being treated fairly
> 12. Stories of opression, discrimination, and segragation
> 13. Differences between what you think my opinion is vs. what I said here
> 14. Wintel bashing
> 15. Analogies concerning racism, fascism or any other bad-ism.
> 16. Comparisons between myself and infamously evil characters of history
> 17. Any other "Ed bashing" topics that you've been using to distract from
> the issues
>
> Followed by a completely different posting, that was off topic for that
> particular point in the thread, designed to change the subject to something else
> entirely, and away from the big goofes you had made
I'm sorry that you seem to have completely misunderstood what I had said. Perhaps next time you can have a child
read it to you and explain it in such a way that you can understand it. Maybe if you try real hard you can get this
explanation:
I was trying to get the discussion back on the original topic. All 17 points above are topics that you and your
fanatic friends have used to drag the conversation away from the Toaster/Flyer and onto my credibility. Again,
my credibility was not the topic of the thread. I was just sick and tired of your stupid idiocy and wanted to
put an end to it. I mistakenly thought that when you saw a long list of ridiculous topics that you'd realize
that you had been carrying on like a bunch of stupid idiots.
Does that help? Again, if you need to, find yourself a child that can explain this to you.
> I found 14 interesting. You can bash the Amiga when you don't own one, and have
> not evern seen one for 3 years. But I can't bash the machine that I am typing
> this message on, and that I own, and have been using regularly for about 2
> years.
I realize now that I wasted my time trying to reason with you on an adult level. I didn't say that you weren't
allowed to bash any computer you wanted to. I said that it was off topic for the thread. I'm sorry that I confused
you with a plain and simple description but I'm not used to communicating with people of such low understanding.
Also, congrats on managing to figure out how to use a PC. I know that it was probably very taxing on your mind.
After all, the Amiga is so simple to use with real "plug and play" configuration ease. Hey, just ask Glenn how easy
it is to configure an Amiga/Toaster/Flyer system! From his mile long rant in r.v.d.t I can see that it's far easier
and superior to a PC.
> Having made a list of Dos and Don'ts for us, can we make one for you?
You can do whatever you want. Go ahead and make a list if it makes you happy.
> Actually since you asked me the question, I think It would be on topic to post
> the entire Posting from the " VT Flyer. Opinions? " Thread posted on 10/24/97 at
> 12:44PM Copied from my Agent Reader. Feel free to look it up on Dejanews, and
> the posting that followed it in the thread.
I'll leave the rest of this stupid nonsense to another message.
<big snip of childish whinings>
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
chuck...@newtek.com
In article <345A3C...@primenet.com>,
Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> chuck...@newtek.com wrote:
>
> > The specs are fine.
>
> Pardon me Chuck, but when did the Flyer (the product, not some lab bench
> test) ever pass a 6 MHz video signal? When did the Flyer (the product, not
> some lab bench test) ever produce any lossless D2 video with a practical
> image? When did the Flyer (the product, not some lab bench test) ever
> perform at an 8 MB/s data rate? And perhaps you'd like to tell everyone when
> it will? Never? Thank you for your honesty.
>
> What did customers actually get for spending $7500 on a Toaster/Flyer? A
> composite video system that wouldn't pass a video signal beyond 4.2 MHz. The
> only images that could be encoded by VTASC lossless were those that didn't
> have content beyond 4.2 MHz and were so bland that they didn't exceed 4.8
> MB/s with simple huffman encoding (ie, not from real video sources). And
> while were on the topic of data rates, 4.8 MB/s was the limit. Beyond that,
> the Flyer just starts throwing out data. In short, customers paid $7500 for
> a composite only NLE system that can't preserve the quality of SVHS recorded
> video.
>
> > other NLEs when in fact you had no experience with the Flyer, and
> > whenever someone who did have comparative experience with the Flyer and
> > other NLE systems reported that the Flyer produced better video, you told
> > them they were smoking crack. Of course they got upset with you. They
> > knew what they were talking about by direct experience, and you
> > discounted their experience in favor of your theory.
>
> tests between the Flyer and other NLE systems he found the video quality of
> the Flyer to be obviously inferior. I participated in some of that testing
> and have the tapes to prove it. Unlike so many of the faithful (and NewTek),
> Myron has enough integrity to honestly perform the tests and accurately
> report the results.
I looked at the tape, saw some artifacting that indicated possible
problems, and emailed Myron some comments on some things to look into
that might be affecting his Flyer's output quality. I received no answer
to that email. I had no interest in making any further fuss and feathers
about the matter, and certainly had customers to assist, which time spent
debating over in rec.desktop.video was not accomplishing. In the two
years before last year's debate, DV did tests in which experts compared
the video of several systems, without knowing which system had been used
to create the video (i.e., they really judged the quality, not their
biases for or against a particular system), and, if I remember correctly,
the Flyer placed second one year (when only Standard mode was available),
and second or third the next.
The Flyer was the first dual stream card, and still produces a
high-quality FCC legal broadcast signal, and has thousands of users doing
profitable business. Since the Flyer is now three years old in release,
I'd be shocked if there aren't cards that can produce better quality
video by now. If that gives you a warm feeling in your heart, I'm happy
for you.
> The people that protested these results were the faithfully brainwashed who
> never actually did any comparison testing, they preferred to spout the same
> mind numbing propaganda that NewTek continues to push. They got upset with
> me because they wasted $10K on a system that never will match the video
> quality of systems costing less than half that price. Some of them were bold
> enough to say that output from the Flyer was indistinguishable from output
> from a Beta SP deck. But when pushed for the details, they were forced to
> admit that they were looking at the composite output of the Beta SP deck
> using cheap Tee-Vee sets or old Commodore Amiga monitors.
> Finally, since when is it just theory to say that component video is superior
> to composite video? When is it just theory to say that a 5.5 MHz signal has
> higher resolution than a 4.2 MHz signal? When you have a tape in your hand
> demonstrating how the Flyer degraded a simple SVHS recording, you're no
> longer talking theory. You're talking propaganda busting facts. Shame on
> NewTek for leading these people along with false specifications for so many
> years.
>
> --
> Ed Bennett
> e...@primenet.com
>
> PS: A year ago when I pointed out to you that the specs on the NewTek web
> site did not represent the product that was actually being sold to customers,
> you said that it was old data that had accidently been included during a
> server change. You said it would be corrected but it hasn't been. That
> makes a strong (read: air-tight) case for deliberate misrepresentation.
You've edited your memory on several points, Ed. Not only did we change
the information on the site, but I asked you to review the changes, which
you did. At the time we had not documented the implemented performance of
VTASC, and we did so by adding the table on recording modes, as well as
the discussion concerning the lowpass filter. Further, you had commented
on the section describing drive configuration, and what was required for
animation recording. I completely rewrote that section as well. You were
satisfied with the changes at the time. I've been reviewing the message
exchanges in rvd, and given the personal nature of the exchanges on both
sides, I can see why you are in such a state of aggravation. Since the
parties involved will never convince each other of anything, maybe you
and they should just consider giving it a rest.
Ed Bennett
Hey SpamBots! Over Here! Look what I got!
e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com
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e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com e...@primenet.com
Ed Bennett
Here's what Paul sent me after seeing my reply to his message:
>To: e...@primenet.com
>Subject: Re: Newtek Abandons Flyer??!
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:35:46 GMT
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by primenet.com id RAA14845
>
>On 9 Nov 1997 15:28:00 -0700, in rec.video.desktop you wrote:>
>> So, you think that I didn't answer your pathetic message because I
>> couldn't? You thought that I was trounced? Well then, why not just sit
>> back and relax while I compare your little fantasy here with reality.
>
> <SNIP a bunch of stuff I WILL answer on the NGs, you can bet on it>
>
>> I'll leave the rest of this stupid nonsense to another message.
>>
>> <big snip of childish whinings>
>
> You better answer it, or it will be all over the Video.* NGs
>
>>
>> Ed Bennett
>> e...@primenet.com
>>
>
> FX
Here we observe a basic difference between myself and Paul. I'll wait a
week for someone to respond and then post a gentle reminder letting them
know that I still expect a response. I also let them know what sort of
conclusions can be drawn from a non-response. Paul, on the other hand,
threatens me with some sort of slanderous smear campaign across all the
video.* newsgroups if I don't respond to his message. I know that this
isn't an idle threat because he's never hesitated to do it in the past.
Well Paul, I hate to burst your bubble but the answer is all typed up and
ready to post. So I'm giving you absolutely no excuse to launch a smear
campaign (not that you ever needed an excuse).
Now, as for you response to my message (the one that prompted you to send
me the above threatening email), I'm patiently waiting. It ought to be a
good one! I definitely look forward to a good, hard, long laugh! It
ought to be jam packed with classic Paul Nordmann nonsense and lies.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
W6SFG
Ed,
((Before I go further, I want to say that you sound like an intelligent person
and my following comments are in no an attack upon your character, or
integrity. )))
Please stop beating a dead horse!
Your continual bad mouthing of the Newtek Flyer is like trying to tell a guy
that owns a red corvett that the color really doesn't make it go any faster!
He doesn't care.
My question to you is what in the world are you attempting to accomplish?
Those that invested in the system, I am one, do have some dissappointments, but
frankly in my case, and many other I suspect, they are far outweighted by the
satisfaction of having purchased a system that has made me a lot of MONEY!
I am a broadcast professional with nearly 30 years in the business (5 years
engineering for ABC & NBC TV Hollywood and the rest producing tv for ABC, NBC,
CBS, CNN, FOX, ESPN, Discovery and a host of other independents) but when I
purchased my Flyer I couldn,t justify paying $$$$$$$$ for an Avid or Turbo
Cube. Now I can thanks to the Flyer! Funny thing, I now edit on AVID 8000,
Turbo Cube, Media 100, Plum, and guess what Flyer.
You're right on many points. I won't go into them but what good does anyone for
you to pursue this rhetoric?
Do you have a system that works and you use to make money and do you like it?
If so Great! If I then tell you you were sold a bill of goods and it is sub
standard and that it doesn't hold a candle to a
XXXX system, what would your reaction be?
I hope the answer is obvious anyway.
Thanks for considering this post.
I purpose is solely constructive criticism.
Sincerely,
Bruce Braun
President: Creative Teleproductions, Inc.
Web site:http://members.aol.com/w6sfg/bbraun.html
FX
On 11 Nov 1997 18:20:01 -0700, Ed Bennett <e...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Here's what Paul sent me after seeing my reply to his message:
>
>>To: e...@primenet.com
>>Subject: Re: Newtek Abandons Flyer??!
>>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:35:46 GMT
>>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by primenet.com id RAA14845
>>
>>On 9 Nov 1997 15:28:00 -0700, in rec.video.desktop you wrote:>
>>> So, you think that I didn't answer your pathetic message because I
>>> couldn't? You thought that I was trounced? Well then, why not just sit
>>> back and relax while I compare your little fantasy here with reality.
>>
>> <SNIP a bunch of stuff I WILL answer on the NGs, you can bet on it>
>>
>>> I'll leave the rest of this stupid nonsense to another message.
>>>
>>> <big snip of childish whinings>
>>
>> You better answer it, or it will be all over the Video.* NGs
>>
>>>
>>> Ed Bennett
>>> e...@primenet.com
>>>
>>
>> FX
>
>Here we observe a basic difference between myself and Paul. I'll wait a
>week for someone to respond and then post a gentle reminder letting them
>know that I still expect a response. I also let them know what sort of
>conclusions can be drawn from a non-response. Paul, on the other hand,
>threatens me with some sort of slanderous smear campaign across all the
>video.* newsgroups if I don't respond to his message. I know that this
>isn't an idle threat because he's never hesitated to do it in the past.
Considering the answer I am looking for is to a posting made over 2 weeks ago, I
feel I have been very nice.
>
>Well Paul, I hate to burst your bubble but the answer is all typed up and
>ready to post. So I'm giving you absolutely no excuse to launch a smear
>campaign (not that you ever needed an excuse).
Well Why did you waste our time with this posting?
Why didn't you just post it?
>
>Now, as for you response to my message (the one that prompted you to send
>me the above threatening email), I'm patiently waiting. It ought to be a
>good one! I definitely look forward to a good, hard, long laugh! It
>ought to be jam packed with classic Paul Nordmann nonsense and lies.
Oh now I understand, you wanted to threaten me, in public instead of via EMail.
>
>Ed Bennett
>e...@primenet.com
>
Ed Bennett
Hi Bruce,
I appreciate your efforts here. Believe me I'm extremely frustrated as well. I am
not in any way offended by your comments and am impressed by your experience.
Unfortunately, I am not in complete control of how things tend to progress. I'll
comment in-line on your message.
W6SFG wrote:
> Ed,
> ((Before I go further, I want to say that you sound like an intelligent person
> and my following comments are in no an attack upon your character, or
> integrity. )))
>
> Please stop beating a dead horse!
> Your continual bad mouthing of the Newtek Flyer is like trying to tell a guy
> that owns a red corvett that the color really doesn't make it go any faster!
> He doesn't care.
I think if you read my initial responses to some of these threads you'd find pretty
fair and unbiased opinions. In fact, I've received email and have seen postings
from several Toaster/Flyer users (and former users) that have said as much.
> My question to you is what in the world are you attempting to accomplish?
> Those that invested in the system, I am one, do have some dissappointments, but
> frankly in my case, and many other I suspect, they are far outweighted by the
> satisfaction of having purchased a system that has made me a lot of MONEY!
I am simply answering questions and claims.
> I am a broadcast professional with nearly 30 years in the business (5 years
> engineering for ABC & NBC TV Hollywood and the rest producing tv for ABC, NBC,
> CBS, CNN, FOX, ESPN, Discovery and a host of other independents) but when I
> purchased my Flyer I couldn,t justify paying $$$$$$$$ for an Avid or Turbo
> Cube. Now I can thanks to the Flyer! Funny thing, I now edit on AVID 8000,
> Turbo Cube, Media 100, Plum, and guess what Flyer.
Very good.
> You're right on many points. I won't go into them but what good does anyone for
> you to pursue this rhetoric?
You probably haven't been around long enough to have seen all the messages from
Toaster/Flyer advocates putting down other products in favor of promoting their
own. Here's a short list of the titles of threads that were STARTED by
Toaster/Flyer advocates:
Why Would I Buy a Flyer?
Flyer is a viable alternative
Targa 2000 Pro Disappointing
Toasters: Protect Your Future- MSNBC Slights Amiga
Flyer = Beta
Amiga's the best? You mean the FLYER so shuttup
CHALLENGE TO ED AND FRIENDS
CHALENGE CHALENGE CHALENGE
Why you should buy an Amiga 4000/Flyer for Non Linear Editing
Plum/NLE comments...
PLUM NLE - Very Interesting Facts
Explinations CHALLENGE TO ED AND FRIENDS
The BEST Tool For The Job
Most Popular NLE - The Video Toaster Flyer
More Info on Video Toaster Flyer Popularity
Platforms that "work"
The Best Tool For The Job - Part 2
Newtek is a great company!
The Best NLE for $12,000.00 to $15,000.00
PLUM - Plump and Pricey - $16,000.00
New Products for the DEAD AMIGA Toaster/Flyer
Worthiness and STAYING POWER
Amiga's are easy to use
This doesn't even begin to mention all the threads that have been rudely
interrupted by self serving promotion of the Toaster/Flyer and shameless criticism
of other products. I haven't started any anti-Toaster/Flyer threads. I've only
answered threads like the above and made comments where I thought lies and
propaganda needed to be corrected.
Perhaps you've noticed that one of these people has started a new thread ("On/Off
Topic??????"). He's asking the group if it's all right to attack someone with
negative personal remarks if they say something negative about his Toaster/Flyer
(without regard to whether it's true or not). In other words, is it OK to try to
destroy someone's reputation if they don't agree with your opinions? That's what I
have to deal with.
> Do you have a system that works and you use to make money and do you like it?
> If so Great! If I then tell you you were sold a bill of goods and it is sub
> standard and that it doesn't hold a candle to a
> XXXX system, what would your reaction be?
> I hope the answer is obvious anyway.
Actually, I would want to know why someone didn't like my system. When I first
purchased a Plum, I was told by someone in the group that it had problems. I was
very interested to find out exactly what he meant. He said that it had to to with
accurate color reproduction. So, that led me to check it out. I'm glad that this
person told me what he thought. I've never had any false delusions about the Plum
being the best and claiming that it's superior to high end Avid and Media 100
systems. But the Toaster/Flyer advocates have.
> Thanks for considering this post.
> I purpose is solely constructive criticism.
Thanks for offering it. It was constructive. Sorry it took so long to reply. I
hope you learned something as well.
Ed Bennett
e...@primenet.com
synthuser
Ed Bennett wrote:
> Did you take your Thorazine today?
That made me chuckle
--
Almost called it today.
Turned to face "The Void"
numb with suffering
and the question,
Why am I...?"
Promised Land / Queensryche
Brian Salisbury
Please stay on the topic of the Subject. If you must use our bandwidth
on pointless arguing, then start a new subject like: "Why I dislike
Paul" or "Why I dislike Ed".
Thank You,
Brian