DVD Recorder vs. Digital Camcorder Pass Through for Converting VHS and Camcorder Tapes
powr...@aol.com
Converting analog camcorder tapes to DVD.
Converting VHS tapes to DVD.
Publishing digitized conversions to web
Problem:
Getting analog signals converted to digital signals then getting those
signals into my computer for editing.
Possible solutions:
Analog to digital conversion input devices via USB port. (ex. Dazzle
DVC90)
Analog to digital conversion input PCI card. (ex. Pinnacle Studio PCI
500)
External Analog to digital conversion box (ex. Canopus ADV100)
Pass through a Digital camcorder into firewire card and onto hard
drive.
Standalone DVD recorder--record onto DVD, then grab from DVD onto hard
drive.
I've been reading this group for the past week, surfing web sites and
reading product reviews. From what I've gathered the computer input
capture devices, USB and PCI card, are fraught with problems and
produce a low quality image. For every person that said the products
worked as advertised there seemed to be two that said they couldn't get
the thing to work or there were so many problems they quit trying to
get it to work. A very common comment was "I wish I had never bought
the thing."
The Canopus box is intriguing but the cost is prohibitive for such a
specialized product, IMO.
That leaves the digital camcorder pass-through or the DVD recorder.
While I like the simplicity of the camcorder solution, especially if I
could pop my analog 8mm tapes in there, hit the play button and have
digitized output. Seems fairly simple. The cost appears to be around
$160 to $200 to get one on e-bay, plus I would need a $15 firewire
card.
So, I'm leaning toward the DVD recorder. For one thing, I can get one
with a TV tuner built into it, effectively replacing my old VHS
recorder. Second, I can easily tape my prerecorded VHS tapes to DVD
without having to go through my computer. Should greatly simplify that
process. Third, I can hook up my analog camcorder to it and record to
DVD unattended. All for around $175.
Correct me if I'm wrong but then I can pop the DVD into my computer DVD
drive and grab the parts I want to my hard drive, in effect pre-editing
content. I presume this process would be easier to perform compared to
the digital camcorder pass-through solution which I imagine would be
continually pressing play and stop on the analog player and capture and
stop with the video capture software.
Am I right in assuming I can easily dump video content from the DVD
drive to the hard drive?
I'm looking at something like this:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Panasonic-Diga-DVD-Recorder-DMR-ES15S-/sem/rpsm/oid/146237/catOid/-12872/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
What are the pros and cons of the DVD recorder solution vs. the
camcorder pass through?
Rôgêr
DVD recorder pros = dead easy to make DVDs. The cons are that you are
recording in MPEG2 format which presents many problems when editing. If
editing isn't an issue, go with the DVD recorder.
Camera pass-through pros = dead easy to capture to computer. Normally
it's in .avi format and much easier to edit and keep the quality up to
snuff. After editing, you can use authoring software to make a DVD, if
that's your goal. Cons = considerably more work/time involved, but more
professional looking end product.
Footnote: I have an ATI analog capture card and it is so fussy to get it
working right that I use the camera pass-through every time for getting
analog on to the hard drive.
xmradio
"Rôgęr" <ab...@your.isp.com> wrote in message
news:0_SdnebuXucuohLZ...@pghconnect.com...
I got the avi capture working okay on my 9600aiw and 1900xt aiw.
I don't recommend these cards for the average user. Use a happauge card.
xman
Michael Booth
http://www.newcyberian.com/howto/dvdauthoring.html
MB
"xmradio" <fre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1_2dnbVgmp0xxBLZ...@comcast.com...
>
> "Rôgêr" <ab...@your.isp.com> wrote in message
PTravel
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1150235527.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Correct me if I'm wrong but then I can pop the DVD into my computer DVD
> drive and grab the parts I want to my hard drive, in effect pre-editing
> content. I presume this process would be easier to perform compared to
> the digital camcorder pass-through solution which I imagine would be
> continually pressing play and stop on the analog player and capture and
> stop with the video capture software.
Well, sorry, but you're wrong. DVDs use a specific form of mpeg encoding
that results in VOB files. For maximum compatibility, VOB files are
usually 1 gig in size, with the last VOB file whatever size is necessary to
complete the video. Frequently, you can simply copy over a VOB file, rename
the extention to mpg and treat it as an mpeg (though this will not work with
commercialy DVDs that are encrypted).
>
> Am I right in assuming I can easily dump video content from the DVD
> drive to the hard drive?
Yes, it's easy to dump the content of DVDs to a hard drive. It is not,
however, very easy to do anything with it once it's there. There are some
programs around that can edit mpeg, but if you want to do more than simple
cuts-only editing, you're better off working in a non-temporally compressed
video format.
Scubajam
> What are the pros and cons of the DVD recorder solution vs. the
> camcorder pass through?
The DVD you make will have a VOB file, as mentioned before. I have
successfully renamed the xxxxx.vob file to xxxxx.mpg and put it into
my timeline for editing. However, there are programs that rip the vob
file better.
The problems are:
1) mpg is a lossy codec. Meaning there is always loss because it
compresses, then decompresses for viewing. Your VHS or analog files
aren't high quality anyway, do you want to lose more?
2) mpg separately compresses the video and audio. You'll find several
threads about synch problems. There are some programs that handle mpg
better and do good editing. I don't know which ones because I most
always use avi files. One solution is just to cut the timeline every
30 seconds. Just make a cut, don't delete anything. This creates a
timeline of several 30 second clips so the audio synch can't go bad.
Some say you can do this every 2 minutes, but I've had problems
stretching it that far.
3) the camcorder passthrough method creates an avi file, which you can
edit and not have synch or loss problems. There will be minimal loss
when it's finally rendered into an mpg file for DVD recording.
Different programs use different methods (codec) and some are much
better than others. At least you should capture with a DV avi file.
Make sure your capture setting are set that way.
Too bad you can't just borrow a camcorder. Or quickly call some pawn
shops in the area and see if they have one for $100 or so. Check the
manual for that model online to see if it supports passthrough. Don't
forget to remove the tape! Just passthrough on some models won't work
right if there's a tape in the camcorder. Then remember to return the
camcorder to normal setting.
Bottom line, DVD recorder will work, but will have somewhat lower
quality and may frustrate you with audio synch problems. Used
camcorder solution is better quality, no synch problems, but might be a
bit more expensive. I think you can find a pass-through camcorder for
less if you look hard.
Jim McG
Washington State
powr...@aol.com
> Scubajam wrote:
> > What are the pros and cons of the DVD recorder solution vs. the
> > camcorder pass through?
>
> 3) the camcorder passthrough method creates an avi file, which you can
> edit and not have synch or loss problems. There will be minimal loss
> when it's finally rendered into an mpg file for DVD recording.
> Different programs use different methods (codec) and some are much
> better than others. At least you should capture with a DV avi file.
> Make sure your capture setting are set that way.
Answers breed questions.
OK, which programs have the better codecs?
> Too bad you can't just borrow a camcorder. Or quickly call some pawn
> shops in the area and see if they have one for $100 or so. Check the
> manual for that model online to see if it supports passthrough. Don't
> forget to remove the tape! Just passthrough on some models won't work
> right if there's a tape in the camcorder. Then remember to return the
> camcorder to normal setting.
I sure wish I could borrow a camcorder, but I simply have too much
material to convert that I'd need it for months. The pawn shop idea is
a good one.
Thanks to everybody for their input. Thanks Mr. Booth for the DVD
authoring link, most helpful. I'll be lurking.
powr...@aol.com
There is a Sony TRV250 with a cracked LCD screen for $34.00 on e-bay
right now. Expires in an hour. Wish I had more time to research this,
it might be just the ticket..
J. Clarke
Nope. 250 doesn't have pass-through.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
powr...@aol.com
> J. Clarke wrote:
> powr...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > There is a Sony TRV250 with a cracked LCD screen for $34.00 on e-bay
> > right now. Expires in an hour. Wish I had more time to research this,
> > it might be just the ticket..
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Handycam-DCR-TRV250-Digital-8-Digital-Camcorder-NR_W0QQitemZ7627495182QQihZ017QQcategoryZ48512QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> Nope. 250 doesn't have pass-through.
http://esupport.sony.com/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=DCRTRV250
See page 208 of Operating Instructions (primary manual)
"Capturing Images From an Analog Video Unit on Your Computer--Signal
Convert Function"
Scubajam
> > Different programs use different methods (codec) and some are much
> > better than others. At least you should capture with a DV avi file.
> > Make sure your capture setting are set that way.
>
>
> Answers breed questions.
> OK, which programs have the better codecs?
I use the Ulead family of programs. Media Studio Pro 8 is their
several hundred $$ pro version, which is what I mostly use. Video
Studio 10 is about $100 I think, and it's very adequate for what you
do. There are just DVD burning programs which give you better menu
choices for setting up DVD burning. There are many other, more popular
programs. Most others have less intuitive interfaces, i.e. steep
learning curve. Pinnacle and Premiere come to mind. Each company has
it's pro and its consumer versions. Most of the latest versions will
have good avi to mpg for DVD burning codecs, but be careful of older
versions. Often cheaper, but lower quality. There are several reviews
of the different programs for quality, but I haven't read any in months
- Google DVD burn or something. You can't get better than the
original, well sometimes you actually can get a little better quality
because of interpolation, but still, the original is the limiting fact.
Older analog original just is not high quality.
One thing, you can edit then render to an avi file to sent to the DVD
authoring program, or you can render to mpg format, which is what is
burned to the DVD (changed to vob format). If you use the editing
software to create the mpg file, then when changing to the DVD
authoring program make sure to check the box for "smart render" or do
not convert compliant files, etc. That means you don't want the DVD
program to take a mpg file, and render it again to another mpg file to
burn on disc. Such double rendering is where a lot of programs lose
quality. For a beginner, use edit software to render to an avi file,
then let the DVD software create the mpg file. I usually render to
mpg in the editing program because I have more control over parameters,
like bitrate, audio encoding, etc. Gotta be careful though, some try
to use higher bit rates thinking it will result in better quality,
which is often not the case and results in files too large for many DVD
players to handle. This could go on for hours. The more you know, the
more questions you'll have. First decide how to convert your analog
and get started.
Most all the major programs have trial versions. Some are crippled. I
know Ulead trials are not crippled, but you don't get any updates or
support (naturally). You could try several and go on for months for
free.
Jim McG
powr...@aol.com
> Scubajam wrote:
<snip good info>
> One thing, you can edit then render to an avi file to sent to the DVD
> authoring program, or you can render to mpg format, which is what is
> burned to the DVD (changed to vob format). If you use the editing
> software to create the mpg file, then when changing to the DVD
> authoring program make sure to check the box for "smart render" or do
> not convert compliant files, etc. That means you don't want the DVD
> program to take a mpg file, and render it again to another mpg file to
> burn on disc. Such double rendering is where a lot of programs lose
> quality. For a beginner, use edit software to render to an avi file,
> then let the DVD software create the mpg file.
I shall heed your advice for beginners and use DVD authoring software
to burn. I have Sonic MyDVD, it came pre-installed on my Dell. At first
I will probably use MS Movie Maker as my video capture program, just
for my learning experience. Then I might try some of the free trial
versions you mentioned and go from there.
BTW, I've pretty much decided to go with a used Sony TRV240 (or
similar) to convert analog to digital and rejected the standalone DVD
recorder option.
I appreciate all your help, Scubajam.
J. Clarke
Now just what do you think that those little outlines of a camera at the top
of that page that have the numbers "350" and "351" in them might mean?
powr...@aol.com
> J. Clarke wrote:
> Now just what do you think that those little outlines of a camera at the top
> of that page that have the numbers "350" and "351" in them might mean?
It means that the 1024 X 768 resolution on my monitor can't resolve
the numbers in those outlines at the top of the page at the default
setting on the .pdf viewer. It means that you are correct and I am in
error. (I see that the TRV240 has the capability, though)
sid
a program from VCR to mpeg2 on PC and then burned it. Towards the end
of one hour program there was visible lipsynch problems. Also it was
just a hassle to connect several equipments and use software. I am now
leaning towards a standalone DVD recorder , esp the panasonic model
mentioned in this thread. (I can't believe how much they overcharge for
a model with VCR built-in - almost $100 more!) Oh well. I will just
stack my old vcr on top of this.
SS
PTravel
"sid" <srid...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1150776137....@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I have a SONY TRV33 which has digital passthrough. I used it to record
> a program from VCR to mpeg2 on PC and then burned it. Towards the end
> of one hour program there was visible lipsynch problems.
Clearly, you did something wrong. If you used digital passthrough, you
would have connected the TRV33 to your computer using a 1394/Firewire port,
and your capture software would have saved the resulting transfer as a
DV-codec-encoded AVI file. If you got mpeg, you were using some software
that was doing on-the-fly transcoding, which would result in a poor quality
transfer and, probably, your sync problems.
> Also it was
> just a hassle to connect several equipments and use software.
A hassle? VCR out to camcorder in. Camcorder digital out to 1394 on the
computer. That's a hassle?
Scubajam
> >I have a SONY TRV33 which has digital passthrough. I used it to record
> > a program from VCR to mpeg2 on PC and then burned it. Towards the end
> > of one hour program there was visible lipsynch problems.
>
> Clearly, you did something wrong. If you used digital passthrough, you
> would have connected the TRV33 to your computer using a 1394/Firewire port,
> and your capture software would have saved the resulting transfer as a
> DV-codec-encoded AVI file. If you got mpeg, you were using some software
> that was doing on-the-fly transcoding, which would result in a poor quality
> transfer and, probably, your sync problems.
See my message above in this thread. ALWAYS capture with DV codec to
an avi file via Firewire. ALWAYS!! If you don't, and don't know what
you're doing, you'll get audio synch problems!!! It can be done if you
know what to do, like chop the file into 30 sec segments. But it's
dumb. Remember mpg is a lossy codec. That means you always lose
quality. NEVER edit in mpg. There are exceptions to that rule, again,
if you know what you're doing. So, capture to an avi file. Edit and
make any changes, titles, audio tracks, etc and render to an avi file.
Let your DVD burning program take the avi file and burn the DVD. In
the process it will render to an mpg file, but it knows how to do it
and keep the audio synched. If you don't make any changes, just go
directly to your DVD burning software, load the avi file, and let it do
its magic!
Jim
David Chien
mode and you'll have nice enough video to use online.
DVD recorder deck is the easiest way.
---
Otherwise, DV/Digital8 camcorder that has IEEE 1394 output + analog
passthrough so you can convert old tapes to DV video for the PC.
Both work fine, I've done both. Simply depends on what you've got at
hand, and how much equipment you'll want to buy.
IE, do you want a digital camcorder more, or a DVD recorder for the TV more?