Panorama Head, or Leveling a Tripod
Gary Eickmeier
I could pan 360 degrees without the horizon tilting. Should be simple,
right? Well I'm here to tell ya that it ain't.
I bought a circular bubble level to place right on top of the camera, to
make certain I was using the flattest and most important reference point. I
carefully leveled the tripod. Then when I rotated 90 degrees, the level was
off again. I re-levelled at that position, and same result. No matter how
you do it, you can't get it to stay level through a full circle.
So, I reason that it must be that the vertical axis of the video head is not
vertical, and is following a conic path around, rather than a straight
vertical line. But what can I do about that? Perhaps the panorama still
photography people have special heads that are made for this purpose, and
can be leveled so that their axis is perfect. Not sure what to look up on
this, or if it would be suitable for video work.
Has anyone run into this problem before? Maybe my tilt of the pan/tilt head
is not right, and I am leveling a tilted camera. I thought I checked for
that, but perhaps there is a better technique or procedure to follow. One
problem is a lack of flat reference surfaces on a tripod head to begin
with.
Gary Eickmeier
David Ruether
"Gary Eickmeier" <geic...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4af6ed6b$0$1611$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
The only way I have been able to do this is to level the tripod
using the video camera image itself referenced to horizon lines,
building verticals, doorway verticals, etc. with rotation over the
desired angular range. A royal PITA to accomplish, but better
than trying to use inaccurate bubble levels (mounted on "iffy"
surfaces...). At least with the actual camera in place, all the
variables are taken care of (except for the possibility of a slightly
rotated viewfinder image relative to the camera output, but that
should have been checked upon purchase of the camera - and
an electronically-generated grid over the image does help
considerably). What you want to do *is* surprisingly difficult...:-(
--DR
Richard Crowley
> Here is an apparent anomoly for me. I just wanted to level my tripod so
> that I could pan 360 degrees without the horizon tilting. Should be
> simple, right? Well I'm here to tell ya that it ain't.
>
> I bought a circular bubble level to place right on top of the camera, to
> make certain I was using the flattest and most important reference point.
How do you know your selected location on the top of the camera
is level? I'm not sure I have ever seen a camera with a perfectly
flat and representatively level top surface.
> I carefully leveled the tripod.
How? With a ball between the head and tripod?
By adjusting the length of tripod leg(s)?
> Then when I rotated 90 degrees, the level was off again. I re-levelled at
> that position, and same result. No matter how you do it, you can't get it
> to stay level through a full circle.
Which says to me that you have not picked a proper
reference point for your bubble level.
If I didn't have a head with a built-in bubble level, I would clamp
a piece of sheet metal between the shoe and the bottom of the
camera and use THAT as the planar reference for leveling.
Gary Eickmeier
"Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:_p-dnZne0vyBOmrX...@posted.pcez...
> "Gary Eickmeier" wrote...
>> I bought a circular bubble level to place right on top of the camera, to
>> make certain I was using the flattest and most important reference point.
>
> How do you know your selected location on the top of the camera
> is level? I'm not sure I have ever seen a camera with a perfectly
> flat and representatively level top surface.
I found a level surface, placed the camera on it, and then placed the level
on top of the camera. Found a part of the top that was apparently level.
>
>> I carefully leveled the tripod.
>
> How? With a ball between the head and tripod?
> By adjusting the length of tripod leg(s)?
Yes, the legs.
>
>> Then when I rotated 90 degrees, the level was off again. I re-levelled at
>> that position, and same result. No matter how you do it, you can't get it
>> to stay level through a full circle.
>
> Which says to me that you have not picked a proper
> reference point for your bubble level.
Are you saying you have done this successfully?
>
> If I didn't have a head with a built-in bubble level, I would clamp
> a piece of sheet metal between the shoe and the bottom of the
> camera and use THAT as the planar reference for leveling.
I think most of us have a video head with a bubble level in it. But I don't
really trust that. Too many variables between the camera and the level to
assume that they are using a common plane. Hence, the portable bubble level.
This has fascinated me enough that I bought a Manfrotto ball head that
mounts between the tripod base and the video head, so that I might level the
camera without doing the leg thing. Haven't gotten to that part of the
experiment yet, but will report on that. It has its own bubble level
incorporated in it, so that might help level the video head before the
camera is mounted. Got to get that axis perfectly perpendicular.
Gary Eickmeier
Richard Crowley
> I found a level surface, placed the camera on it, and then placed the
> level on top of the camera. Found a part of the top that was apparently
> level.
But your experiment shows that apparently it isn't level.
>> Which says to me that you have not picked a proper
>> reference point for your bubble level.
>
> Are you saying you have done this successfully?
Not sure what the question is? I level the head every
time I set up the tripod. I expect that everyone here does.
> I think most of us have a video head with a bubble level in it. But I
> don't really trust that. Too many variables between the camera and the
> level to assume that they are using a common plane. Hence, the portable
> bubble level.
I've used several different heads with built-in bubble levels.
They have all worked perfectly in my experience. I never
found the need to use any other method.
Gene E. Bloch
> If I didn't have a head with a built-in bubble level, I would clamp
> a piece of sheet metal between the shoe and the bottom of the
> camera and use THAT as the planar reference for leveling.
Simple and effective, and I never would have thought of it by myself!
--
Gene E. Bloch letters0x40blochg0x2Ecom
Gary Eickmeier
Thanks Richard, but I don't think you understood the question. I said I want
to level the tripod so that I can pan 360 degrees and not have the horizon
tilt on me. I discovered that even if I leveled it in one position, by the
time I rotated the head thru 90 degrees, it was no longer level - and there
was no way to get it to stay level throughout the pan. It may be just that
my equipment is lying to me, and is not level when the bubble says it is.
And everyone please note that any idiot can level the picture by eye when
the camera is pointed in one direction only. But I need it to stay level
thru a wide pan.
I want this because with hi def, and widescreen, I want a perfect horizon,
and I want it to stay perfect if I have to pan around.
Gary Eickmeier
Richard Crowley
> Thanks Richard, but I don't think you understood the question. I said I
> want to level the tripod so that I can pan 360 degrees and not have the
> horizon tilt on me. I discovered that even if I leveled it in one
> position, by the time I rotated the head thru 90 degrees, it was no longer
> level - and there was no way to get it to stay level throughout the pan.
> It may be just that my equipment is lying to me, and is not level when the
> bubble says it is. And everyone please note that any idiot can level the
> picture by eye when the camera is pointed in one direction only. But I
> need it to stay level thru a wide pan.
>
> I want this because with hi def, and widescreen, I want a perfect horizon,
> and I want it to stay perfect if I have to pan around.
What about one of these?
3-axis, snaps into the accessory shoe...
http://dotlinecorp.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6555
Or if that isn't sensitive enough you could use the method I
suggested where you clamp a stiff piece of aluminum plate
between the head and the camera shoe. Then get one of
those oversize, very sensitive circular bubble levels like one
of these...
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=circular+bubble+level
J. Clarke
If your tripod head camera mounting plate is not exactly perpendicular to
the shaft about which the head rotates then you'll see the symptoms you are
describing, and trying to adjust the tripod with a level on the mounting
plate will be virtually impossible.
Try using a level on the center post to get the tripod level and then see
how much you have to adjust the head to get _it_ level. Once the whole mess
is level and you can rotate the head 360 degrees without shifting the
bubble, take an X-Acto knife and make a very thin cut mark across the
stationary and moving parts of the tilt adjustment on the head so that
you'll be able to get it back to that position again when you need to.
Gene E. Bloch
> "Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
> news:_NWdnW3aTdT-p2XX...@posted.pcez...
>> "Gary Eickmeier" wrote ...
>>> I found a level surface, placed the camera on it, and then placed the
>>> level on top of the camera. Found a part of the top that was apparently
>>> level.
>>
>> But your experiment shows that apparently it isn't level.
>>
>>>> Which says to me that you have not picked a proper
>>>> reference point for your bubble level.
>>>
>>> Are you saying you have done this successfully?
>>
>> Not sure what the question is? I level the head every
>> time I set up the tripod. I expect that everyone here does.
>>
>>> I think most of us have a video head with a bubble level in it. But I
>>> don't really trust that. Too many variables between the camera and the
>>> level to assume that they are using a common plane. Hence, the portable
>>> bubble level.
>>
>> I've used several different heads with built-in bubble levels.
>> They have all worked perfectly in my experience. I never
>> found the need to use any other method.
>
> Thanks Richard, but I don't think you understood the question.
Somehow I keep thinking that Richard understood the question very
precisely...And gave good answers.
Are you using a regular linear level (carpenter's level) or a circular
level (or equivalently two crossed linear levels)? Only the latter kind
could do the job.
> I said I want
> to level the tripod so that I can pan 360 degrees and not have the horizon
> tilt on me. I discovered that even if I leveled it in one position, by the
> time I rotated the head thru 90 degrees, it was no longer level - and there
> was no way to get it to stay level throughout the pan. It may be just that
> my equipment is lying to me, and is not level when the bubble says it is.
> And everyone please note that any idiot can level the picture by eye when
> the camera is pointed in one direction only. But I need it to stay level
> thru a wide pan.
>
> I want this because with hi def, and widescreen, I want a perfect horizon,
> and I want it to stay perfect if I have to pan around.
>
> Gary Eickmeier
Gary Eickmeier
> What about one of these?
> 3-axis, snaps into the accessory shoe...
> http://dotlinecorp.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6555
Interesting product. I think I saw one of these in the store in Tampa for
$29.95. Didn't realize that it fits in the accessory shoe. But of course,
the accessory shoe isn't necessarily level either.
>
> Or if that isn't sensitive enough you could use the method I
> suggested where you clamp a stiff piece of aluminum plate
> between the head and the camera shoe. Then get one of
> those oversize, very sensitive circular bubble levels like one
> of these...
>
> http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=circular+bubble+level
Well, like J. Clarke says, that wouldn't help if the problem was a crooked
camera mounting quick-shoe. I am using the sextagonal Bogen-Manfrotto camera
plate
Will try my new ball head plate next and report back.
Gary Eickmeier
Gary Eickmeier
"Gene E. Bloch" <not...@other.invalid> wrote in message
news:tgh4parozlkb$.g2uud90syiae$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:59:50 -0500, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>> "Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
>> news:_NWdnW3aTdT-p2XX...@posted.pcez...
>>> Not sure what the question is? I level the head every
>>> time I set up the tripod. I expect that everyone here does.
>>>
>>>> I think most of us have a video head with a bubble level in it. But I
>>>> don't really trust that. Too many variables between the camera and the
>>>> level to assume that they are using a common plane. Hence, the portable
>>>> bubble level.
>>>
>>> I've used several different heads with built-in bubble levels.
>>> They have all worked perfectly in my experience. I never
>>> found the need to use any other method.
>>
>> Thanks Richard, but I don't think you understood the question.
>
>
> Somehow I keep thinking that Richard understood the question very
> precisely...And gave good answers.
Well, he SAID that he wasn't sure what the question was. He then said that
he levels his tripod every shot, which of course all of us do and is not
what I was asking.
>
> Are you using a regular linear level (carpenter's level) or a circular
> level (or equivalently two crossed linear levels)? Only the latter kind
> could do the job.
As I said, I am using a circular bubble level. It is not an expensive one,
but I presume it doesn't take rocket science to build a bubble level that
works.
Thanks,
Gary Eickmeier
Gene E. Bloch
> "Gene E. Bloch" <not...@other.invalid> wrote in message
> news:tgh4parozlkb$.g2uud90syiae$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:59:50 -0500, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>
>>> "Richard Crowley" <rcro...@xp7rt.net> wrote in message
>>> news:_NWdnW3aTdT-p2XX...@posted.pcez...
>
>>>> Not sure what the question is? I level the head every
>>>> time I set up the tripod. I expect that everyone here does.
>>>>
>>>>> I think most of us have a video head with a bubble level in it. But I
>>>>> don't really trust that. Too many variables between the camera and the
>>>>> level to assume that they are using a common plane. Hence, the portable
>>>>> bubble level.
>>>>
>>>> I've used several different heads with built-in bubble levels.
>>>> They have all worked perfectly in my experience. I never
>>>> found the need to use any other method.
>>>
>>> Thanks Richard, but I don't think you understood the question.
>>
>>
>> Somehow I keep thinking that Richard understood the question very
>> precisely...And gave good answers.
>
> Well, he SAID that he wasn't sure what the question was. He then said that
> he levels his tripod every shot, which of course all of us do and is not
> what I was asking.
OK. But his answers *were* good, IMO.
>> Are you using a regular linear level (carpenter's level) or a circular
>> level (or equivalently two crossed linear levels)? Only the latter kind
>> could do the job.
>
> As I said, I am using a circular bubble level.
Mea culpa - sorry.
> It is not an expensive one,
> but I presume it doesn't take rocket science to build a bubble level that
> works.
Actually, I've come to believe that it *does* take rocket science. But
maybe it's just that I've never spent a reasonable amount of money for one.
For panoramic shots, I guess saving money isn't the best idea :-)
It *could* be the excuse you and I have been waiting for to buy an iPhone
3GS and some level software for it.
> Thanks,
ushere
try your new ball head with bubble and get back to us. meanwhile this
thread and your questions are pretty pointless till you've use
professional equipment.
this is NOT a flame, just practical common sense.
Richard Crowley
> Well, like J. Clarke says, that wouldn't help if the problem was a crooked
> camera mounting quick-shoe.
In that case you have a broken equipment poblem, not
a leveling poblem. Should be trivial to check and either
eliminate or replace.
> I am using the sextagonal Bogen-Manfrotto camera plate
If you are using the hex head plate, of course you are
plugging it in with the lens facing forward. Else all bets
are off.
Gary Eickmeier
On that one, there is only one way you can mount the camera - with the
anti-rotation pin in its hole. Then the camera goes onto the head with the
lens facing the opposite direction of the pan/tilt handle.
As I said, some of this may have to do with the tilt setting upon initial
tripod leveling. So I need to address the absolute level of the tripod
first, with the axis hopefully perpendicular to gravity.
Gary Eickmeier
Gary Eickmeier
"ushere" <removethis....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5eqKm.53874$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Is there something not professional about Bogen/Manfrotto?
Gary Eickmeier
Richard Crowley
> As I said, some of this may have to do with the tilt setting upon initial
> tripod leveling. So I need to address the absolute level of the tripod
> first, with the axis hopefully perpendicular to gravity.
<forehead slap> Dunno why I didn't think of this before!
You cannot set level based on anything *above* the
pan-tilt head. Any variation of tilt will throw off the
leveling effort. You must put the bubble level between
the ball and the BOTTOM of the pan/tilt head. THAT
is where the level must be established.
The pan/tilt heads that have built-in bubble levels are
on the non-tilting part of the head. Doesn't make any
sense to try to level above the tilt axis.
Once THAT plane is level, tilting merely sets the height
of the horizon in the frame.
Steve King
Depends on what model Bogen/Manfrotto you are talking about. Depends on
whether you think the next increment of precision that one gets, when
spending X times the cost of a Bogen 501 on a Sachtler, for instance, is
important. As far as your problem is concerned, Crowley and Gene have
nailed it.
Steve King
mpp
<steveSPAMBL...@stevekingSPAMBLOCK.net> wrote:
> "Gary Eickmeier" <geick...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4afab14b$0$1591$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> || "ushere" <removethis.leslie.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> |news:5eqKm.53874$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> | > garry,
> | >
> | > try your new ball head with bubble and get back to us. meanwhile this
> | > thread and your questions are pretty pointless till you've use
> | > professional equipment.
> | >
> | > this is NOT a flame, just practical common sense.
> |
> | Is there something not professional about Bogen/Manfrotto?
> |
> | Gary Eickmeier
>
> Depends on what model Bogen/Manfrotto you are talking about. Depends on
> whether you think the next increment of precision that one gets, when
> spending X times the cost of a Bogen 501 on a Sachtler, for instance, is
> important. As far as your problem is concerned, Crowley and Gene have
> nailed it.
>
> Steve King
I create many 360 degree panoramas with my DV camcorders' still-photo
capabilities. Early on I discovered the difficulty in maintaining a
level horizon line during the 360 degree pan.
I solved the problem with a Manfrotto 3416 tripod leveling head. If
you Google Manfrotto 3416, you will see an image that will explain the
device easier than I could.
The 3416 is mounted directly on the tripod centerpost. The tripod
camera head is mounted on the 3416 without the camcorder. The tripod
is rough-leveled with leg adjustments. Then the 3416 leveling screws
are used to fine-level the head with the built-in bullseye bubble.
Next, raise the pan bar until the camcorder mounting plate is rough
level and set a small torpedo level on the camcorder mounting plate.
Adjust the mounting plate "tilt" angle to horizontal and lock the tilt
angle. Then, rotate the tripod head thru a full 360 degrees while
watching the torpedo level to make sure it remains level. If so, the
camcorder can be mounted and all the overlapping photos will have the
same horizon line.
Once the head is level, the tilt angle can be raise or lowered and all
photos on that new horizon line will again have the same horizon line
throughout.
Most, if not all Panorama creation software can compensate very well
for any slight variations in the horzon line.
HTH,
Mike
David Ruether
"mpp" <sandy...@harbornet.com> wrote in message news:5f41d356-bf91-4078-a7bc-
I create many 360 degree panoramas with my DV camcorders' still-photo
capabilities. Early on I discovered the difficulty in maintaining a
level horizon line during the 360 degree pan.
I solved the problem with a Manfrotto 3416 tripod leveling head. If
you Google Manfrotto 3416, you will see an image that will explain the
device easier than I could.
The 3416 is mounted directly on the tripod centerpost. The tripod
camera head is mounted on the 3416 without the camcorder. The tripod
is rough-leveled with leg adjustments. Then the 3416 leveling screws
are used to fine-level the head with the built-in bullseye bubble.
Next, raise the pan bar until the camcorder mounting plate is rough
level and set a small torpedo level on the camcorder mounting plate.
Adjust the mounting plate "tilt" angle to horizontal and lock the tilt
angle. Then, rotate the tripod head thru a full 360 degrees while
watching the torpedo level to make sure it remains level. If so, the
camcorder can be mounted and all the overlapping photos will have the
same horizon line.
Once the head is level, the tilt angle can be raise or lowered and all
photos on that new horizon line will again have the same horizon line
throughout.
Most, if not all Panorama creation software can compensate very well
for any slight variations in the horzon line.
HTH,
Mike
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also found this device very helpful, even with its rather
considerable weight and noticeable price...
--DR
Gary Eickmeier
OK Richard you are mostly correct here. I bought the Bogen 438 leveling head
and mounted it between my tripod and the video head. Then I carefully
leveled with reference to the bubble on the video head - which is below the
pan/tilt mechanism - and it stayed level thru 360 degrees. Then, of course,
you can tilt to any dip angle you want and the horizon will maintain that
level throughout the pan. But the basic video head must be level and
perpendicular to gravity first.
This whole thing may be simpler than I thought, because I was trying to put
the level on top of the camera, and that complicated matters - like you
said.
Thanks to all contributors, and hope this helped someone else.
Gary Eickmeier
Gary Eickmeier
"David Ruether" <d_ru...@thotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hdh601$pn7$1...@ruby.cit.cornell.edu...
As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I got the 438 leveling head
Which is similar to the 3416, just a different mechanism. There is but a
single lever that is loosened or tightened to level or lock down the tilt
setting. What I am not sure of at this point is whether I needed it at all!
Should be no difference in levelling with the tripod legs or the leveling
head. All you need do is level the video head. My video head has a bubble
level in it, and that has proved to be the most reliable reference. The
spirit level I bought to put on top of the camera just did not work out.
Caused all this confusion. I have since ordered a 2-axis spirit level that
mounts in the camera hot shoe, but I have no idea if the hot shoe is level
in the first place.
Anyway, I think I have it solved now. Thanks to all.
Gary Eickmeier
David Ruether
> As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I got the 438 leveling head
>
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554093-REG/Manfrotto_by_Bogen_Imaging_438_438_Compact_Levelling_Head.html
>
> Which is similar to the 3416, just a different mechanism. There is but a single lever that is loosened or tightened to level or
> lock down the tilt setting. What I am not sure of at this point is whether I needed it at all! Should be no difference in
> levelling with the tripod legs or the leveling head. All you need do is level the video head. My video head has a bubble level in
> it, and that has proved to be the most reliable reference. The spirit level I bought to put on top of the camera just did not work
> out. Caused all this confusion. I have since ordered a 2-axis spirit level that mounts in the camera hot shoe, but I have no idea
> if the hot shoe is level in the first place.
>
> Anyway, I think I have it solved now. Thanks to all.
>
> Gary Eickmeier
G - o - o - d luck! ;-) The problem I see with this solution is that
it is hard to get it adjusted just right in two directions at once (using
what is essentially a ball head), and unless your tripod legs release at
their top ends, getting them to agree while not being able to see the
level as you adjust them is a "pain" - and a single bubble-level isn't
very accurate viewed from the side even if you can both see the level
and adjust the legs at the same time. For a bit more money, the
3-screw device (Manfrotto 3416) is far easier to set up accurately.
--DR
Paul Furman
That should work. I have a huge old Bogen video tripod with bubble
levels below the pan/tilt head but as you noticed, that's a lot of work
adjusting the legs. If people already have a ballhead, there are
rotating pano plates available for what seems an awful lot of money so
that this could be done with a bubble level on the hot shoe but no way
to tilt up or down, just straight horizon in the center shots.
--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com
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