Transfer of 8mm movie to video (jitters problem)
Hans Gelton
video. The sound track is magnetic and the movie needs to be run at 24 fps
for the sound to be normal.
I do own a Eumig S712 Super 8 sound projector and when I project the movie I
get good sound and picture. However, when I try to capture this footage, I
get constant cycles of picture jitter - impossible to correct. This jitter
is not apparent to the eye until video capture. (By the way, it is not
possible to change projector speed).
As the movie has to run at 24 fps, and we are on the Pal system here (25
fps) is this an impossible situation to fix, or is there a work-around?
Any suggestions gratefully received.
Hans Gelton.
Mattias Sandstrom
be a certain exact speed to sound "normal". from what i know, super 8
cameras aren't very precise in speed to begin with, so it shouldn't
matter with a few percent up or down during playback either?
anyway: you should run the movie at 25 fps if at all possible. this is
how even the major features are transfered. if your projector can't
handle that, get a new one.
of course, you can also try and tweak shutter speed and stuff on your
camera to try and minimize the "jitter", but i wouldn't really recommend
it.
/mattias
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John Carswell
Hans Gelton wrote in message <7r2dft$7h05j$1...@titan.xtra.co.nz>...
>I have an assignment from a client to transfer an Super 8 sound movie to
>video. The sound track is magnetic and the movie needs to be run at 24 fps
>for the sound to be normal.
>
>I do own a Eumig S712 Super 8 sound projector and when I project the movie
I
>get good sound and picture. However, when I try to capture this footage,
I
>get constant cycles of picture jitter - impossible to correct. This jitter
>is not apparent to the eye until video capture. (By the way, it is not
>possible to change projector speed).
>
shutter to minimize jitter. A standard film projector has only 3 blades. I
don't know what you'd need for PAL, but if this is a one-off project, you
would be better off to find a business that does transfers with a proper
telecine projector.
Some people use a rheostat or dimmer to adjust the speed of their projectors
(and minimize jitter), but in your case this would likely alter the pitch of
the audio to an unacceptable level.
Hans Gelton
The sound in Super 8 works magnetically - very similar to an audio cassette
player. Now if we run an audio cassette player at anything but the correct
speed we get either a very drawling or Donald Duck type sound coming out.
The original footage was shot commercially with a 16mm camera and this was
copied onto Super 8 stock.
It is not possible to go up to 25 fps as there is no provision for this on
the projector. Whilst an obvious solution would be to get a "new
projector", it is doubtful that manufacturers still make 8mm movie
projectors. It took weeks of searching to find the projector I eventually
purchased second hand. In actual fact I ended up buying 3 projectors, but
could only find 1 which had sound.
Hans Gelton.
Mattias Sandstrom wrote in message <7r2nri$76f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>i don't know how the sound in super 8 works, but why does it have to
>be a certain exact speed to sound "normal". from what i know, super 8
>cameras aren't very precise in speed to begin with, so it shouldn't
>matter with a few percent up or down during playback either?
>
>anyway: you should run the movie at 25 fps if at all possible. this is
>how even the major features are transfered. if your projector can't
>handle that, get a new one.
>
>of course, you can also try and tweak shutter speed and stuff on your
>camera to try and minimize the "jitter", but i wouldn't really recommend
>it.
>
you don't.
Charlie Diaz
Have you tried lowering the shutter speed on your camera?
I wonder if you'd have better luck with an NTSC camera
and then transfer that to PAL.
When I shot Super8 with my TRV-900 it came out fine.
You could also try the rhostat trick and then run the
audio through a harmonizer to bring it back to pitch.
Or put the audio to cassette tape on a machine that has
variable pitch (fairly common) and then sync them in an
NLE and output to tape.
Best of luck and please post your ultimate solution,
Charlie
In a previous article, ha...@timaru.com ("Hans Gelton") says:
>I have an assignment from a client to transfer an Super 8 sound movie to
>video. The sound track is magnetic and the movie needs to be run at 24 fps
>for the sound to be normal.
>
>I do own a Eumig S712 Super 8 sound projector and when I project the movie I
>get good sound and picture. However, when I try to capture this footage, I
>get constant cycles of picture jitter - impossible to correct. This jitter
>is not apparent to the eye until video capture. (By the way, it is not
>possible to change projector speed).
>
daniel...@my-deja.com
do you mean you shot a Super8 film simlpy putting the TRV900 in front of
the screen ? What quality did you attain ? I was thinking of finding a
specific commercial service to do that, but your post hints I should try
the simpler method first.
Daniele
In article <1999Sep8.0...@lafn.org>,
Chazdoyl
7 @ 50' rolls done a few years ago for around $28-$30. Barely worth trying to
find a convoluted method to obtain good results by yourself.
chaz
Charlie Diaz
In a previous article, daniel...@my-deja.com () says:
>Charlie,
>do you mean you shot a Super8 film simlpy putting the TRV900 in front of
>the screen ? What quality did you attain ? I was thinking of finding a
>specific commercial service to do that, but your post hints I should try
>the simpler method first.
>Daniele
Yes. Before I'd heard anything about sync problems I did this for a
friend and everything came out just fine. I tried to set the camera
up directly in front of the screen.
I know the camera better now, so might want to experiment some more
but I didn't have any jitters problems.
In another post Chaz mentions that professional transferring is
cheaper than you might think. Here's some prices from a place in
Burbank CA.
Subject: Re: Super8 to Mini DV?
"Film & Video Transfer, Inc." <flmv...@pacbell.net>
I can go to Panasonic DVC Pro, Sony DV and Digital Betacam -- the price
does vary though, to DVC Pro and Sony Dv it is $1.25/minute minimum charge
of $30.00 pl;us the cost of the tape and Digital Betacam is $180.00/hour
plus the cost of the tape -
Susan
But the following post on the subject of doing it yourself I thought
thorough enough to warrant saving.
In a previous article, bilm...@home.com (Bill) says:
>I9ve got a Canon ES-5000 and have had good results using a 3 ft. wide x 2
>ft. tall flat white poster board, which is available from an art supply
>store.
>I run an RCA video line out of the camcorder and into a monitor during the
>transfer so I can see exactly what I9m getting.
>Place the camcorder as close to the projector lens as possible. Then zoom
>in slowly until you9ve filled the monitor9s screen, even though you will
>lose a little image on the vertical sides because of the different ratio
>of 8mm and Super 8mm film.
>After you get an acceptable picture on your monitor, set the camcorder to
>manual exposure, otherwise auto exposure control on the camcorder will try
>to adjust the exposure every time the light value of your projected image
>changes.
>Also go to manual focus after you9ve got a sharp monitor picture because
>Canon9s auto focus mechanism can be fooled by varying degrees of
>brightness on the screen (poster board). When it does, you9re going to
>wind up with that hunt-and-search annoyance of the picture going from
>sharp to fuzzy to sharp to fuzzy...
>If you have an 8mm/Super 8mm projector with variable speed, play with the
>speed control and you should be able find a speed that significantly
>reduces the flicker that results from the difference in the speed of film
>and video (18 or 24 fps for film vs. 30 frames per second for video).
>I also insert a jack (jack only; it9s not hooked to anything) to the
>mike-input on the camcorder. This ensures that no sound (e.g. projector
>noise) is recorded on the video tape while I9m taping the projected image.
>(After I9m through, I go back and add narration and/or background music.
>If you don9t have a Hi-8 VCR with audio dubbing capabilities, then dub the
>Hi-8 footage over to a VHS VCR or another Hi-8/8mm camcorder (whatever)
>and add your narration and/or background music at that time. The addition
>of music and/or narration to old 8mm/Super 8mm footage adds a great deal
>and may very well be the difference between a snoring audience and one
>which has its eyes open, even if it is only family.)
>Darken the room as much as possible. If at night, turn the lights off.
>Make sure your monitor or TV is facing away from the poster board. If
>you9re doing the transfer in the day time, try to make the room as dark as
>possible by covering the windows with foil or a heavy blanket. Once the
>transfer starts, I use a little flashlight if I need to check things such
>as tape remaining in the camcorder. The idea is to keep extraneous light
>off the projected image.
>After everything is a 3go,2 sit back and watch the monitor. What you see
>will be what you get!
>This all works for me. Hope it helps you.
>Bill in Fremont, CA
Clyst
record the projected movie with my video camera (Sony TR917) It keeps
fading in and out.. bright to dark.
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:58:19 +1200, "Hans Gelton" <ha...@timaru.com>
wrotc:
>I have an assignment from a client to transfer an Super 8 sound movie to
>video. The sound track is magnetic and the movie needs to be run at 24 fps
>for the sound to be normal.
>
>I do own a Eumig S712 Super 8 sound projector and when I project the movie I
>get good sound and picture. However, when I try to capture this footage, I
Peter Feiler
You may need to set the exposure and possibly focus manually (if your
camera allows you to do that). My camcorder also allows you to manually
set the shutter speed which can help with the image quality.
Also if you set up your camcorder right next to the projector you may
pick up a reflection of the projector bulb from the screen.
I use non-glossy white 8*10 photo paper as "screen".
Peter
Clyst
I have manually adjusted the exposure and focus.. didn't help.. but
when I turned a light on (behind camera and projector) the pulsating
(bright to dark) went away, not completely.. but the picture didn't
look as good obviously. I cant change the shutter speed of my camera
(Sony TR917)
On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:28:39 -0400, Peter Feiler <p...@sei.cmu.edu>
wrotc:
Karri Kaksonen
You know these screens were used for graphics workstations in the
late 70's.
Project the film on the video-screen and tape it from there.
The colors are much better than on any glossy paper. And the slow
phosphor will remember the previous picture while the projector goes
black between the frames.
Regards,
Karri
-- Been there, done that, got the T-shirt lost the hat.
Hans Gelton
I think I have almost got the jitter problem solved, but not completely
fixed. It has a lot to do with the age of the projector and does not
appear too have much to do with incompatibility of frames per second.
On my movie projector there is a spring loaded gate that holds the movie in
place between frames. Even at 24fps. there is a short interval when the
film is meant to be stationary. This is where the spring loaded gate comes
in. In my case I have discovered that the gate has lost some of it's
"spring" and may now not hold the frames steady enough to prevent jittering.
I have since cleaned and lubricated this gate which has lessened the jitter
quite a bit. There are 2 small springs in this gate but they are in such a
place that they cannot be renewed.
So there we are ........ one possible answer to jitter problems.
Hans Gelton.
Mattias Sandstrom
> OK. To clarify a few points raised by Mattias:
>
> The sound in Super 8 works magnetically - very similar to an audio cassette
> player. Now if we run an audio cassette player at anything but the correct
> speed we get either a very drawling or Donald Duck type sound coming out.
well, a 4% change in speed is hardly "donald duck". had your projector
been able to run at 25 fps, you could just use that speed. nobody would
notice the difference in sound pitch.
/mattias