Toronto - here we go again!
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
Well, all the Toronto apologists (like Richard) can ignore the
increasing number of stories, like this one, published in the Toronto
Star today, but Toronto has fallen hard from it's lofty heights of
"Safe city", "Clean city',... What a shame!
===============================================
Night of violence leaves four dead
By Don McHoull
Toronto Star Staff Reporter
Four men are dead after a wave of violence struck the city early this
morning.
Around 1 a.m., two men in a black Honda were attacked by two men with
handguns near Eglinton Ave. and Midland Ave. Witnesses described the
two attackers firing repeatedly at the car, with one man emptying his
gun and reloading it.
The suspects fled on foot, and the victims continued driving eastbound
on Eglinton, before colliding with three other cars at the
intersection of Eglinton Ave. and Kennedy Rd.
One of the man in the Honda died at the scene, and the other died in
hospital.
Around 1:30 a.m., two men opened fired at the La Casa banquet hall at
19 Sable St., near Keele St. and Lawrence Ave. Three people were
wounded, and one man later died.
Just before 2 a.m., two men were shot, one of them fatally, in the
Weston Rd. and Lawrence Ave. area.
One man was gunned down outside a restaurant at 2011 Lawrence Ave. W.
A second man was shot while driving away from the area, after he
refused to let a man with a gun take his car.
=============================================
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alohacyberian
<3dbbfa6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>
> ===============================================
> Night of violence leaves four dead
> gun and reloading it.
>
> 19 Sable St., near Keele St. and Lawrence Ave. Three people were
> wounded, and one man later died.
>
> Just before 2 a.m., two men were shot, one of them fatally, in the
> Weston Rd. and Lawrence Ave. area.
>
> One man was gunned down outside a restaurant at 2011 Lawrence Ave. W.
> A second man was shot while driving away from the area, after he
> refused to let a man with a gun take his car.
>
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
Paul Kittel
"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" wrote:
I'm on the west coast, so one of the last things I'd want to do is make
apologies for Toronto, however, for the sake of fairness, are there some
vital parts that are missing from this story?
One thing I've noticed about a good portion of similar shootings in and
around Vancouver is that the victims share a similar last name -
"Knowntopolice". Do some of them have relatives in Toronto?
Paul
BraveNewWhirl
> Well, all the Toronto apologists (like Richard) can ignore the
> increasing number of stories, like this one, published in the Toronto
> Star today, but Toronto has fallen hard from it's lofty heights of
> "Safe city", "Clean city',... What a shame!
>
>
Don't like Toronto eh? Well friend - an incident in Toronto does not a Detroit make.
Richard Lee
make it personal. It's also a self fulfilling prophecy. And you're right
about "here we go again". Why you keep doing this year after year puzzles
and annoys me. The audience should be aware the "Richard" he mentions is me.
We have been at odds for a little more than a year over activity such as
this which he's been engaged in for at least 4 years.
I ask the audience to consider what kind of kook would
a. post crime stories about one city in a newsgroup dedicated to traveller
resources, crimes that do not, never have, involved travellers
b. keep on doing so again and again and again for years and years
c. does an easy copy and paste job, post it specifically to
rec.travel.usa-canada (not to more applicable newsgroups such as
can.general, tor.general or soc.culture.canada) to initiate the thread while
not engaging in the ensuing arguments between Toronto boosters, bashers and
contemplative neutrals.
With regard to point c, it's unfortunate with this sort of thing is so easy
to do, he will be doing it again. He will unlikely stop until the audience
in this newsgroup do not take him seriously - this is just simple child
psychology. For the regular readers, I think I've already put forth sound
arguments to that effect already. For the sentiments of newcomers which he's
after, I am writing this to discredit his portrayal, not necessarily the
person but definately his activity. "Mike" (he apparently uses other handles
on the internet depending on the topic) claimed when I pressed him to state
his motive last year wrote he is out to counter the misinformation that
Toronto is a clean safe city. I am here to counter *his* misinformation of
portraying Toronto as some kind of war zone where certain death awaits
visitors. Toronto is not perfect; I think there are many areas of
improvement. But I am bothered by his attempts to make a warped impression.
If he were to ever bring up the topic of Toronto being an filthy garbage
strewn city *again* in his attempt to trash the city's image (pun intended),
I'm ready with counterarguments for that too.
Audience, there is a characteristic pattern to what happens in these
anti-Toronto threads. These threads appear on a regular basis and have done
so for several years although it took a break for a year following a major
confrontation between the troll(s) and the author last summer. The patten is
always the same: first a lurid account of crime followed by the appearence
supporters who work synergistically in a too well coordinated manner with
the original poster. By definition, these posts are initiated by trolls. In
the past, the first troll has not always been "Mike". Sometimes it is joined
by a naive poster, a Canadian resentful of Toronto being the superpower in
Canada, who becomes an unwitting accessory to the troll(s). Their portrayal
of Toronto is inaccurate.
Consider the big picture in the newspaper story that accompanied the
initiating post. That multi-homicide reported in story he copied and pasted
from The Toronto Star brings the total of murders in Toronto thus far in the
calendar year to 48. There was one a few weeks ago said to be #44. This is
right on schedule as homicide rates have been around the low to mid 50's per
year in a city of 2.5 million, and about 60 homicides year in a region of
just over 4 million. As tragic as those deaths are, there really is not a
lot in terms of per capita rate. Indeed, there are smaller cities in Canada
perceived to be safer that consistently exceed Toronto's rate. Furthermore,
Toronto homicide rate has been going down in the past 20 years since I was
old enough to keep a mental note. It peaked at just over 60 some time in the
80's but Toronto's population was under 2 million in the same boundary.
"Mike" called me a Toronto "apologist", hmmpf, I don't need to apologize,
Toronto does not need to apologize for being the safe city it is.
If "Mike" regularly attends Canadian media, he will of course be aware of
this. However, his editorial stance will not permit publication of the big
picture to keep things in perspective. His arguments rely soley on
sensationalism of infrequent events. He offers no analysis just as the
newspaper stories he cites don't (it's not the job of pure news reports to
do so). In doing so, he is making use of ignorance which is the tactic used
by any repressors, governments or otherwise, anywhere in the world. That
should be countered with enlightenment that I use to oppose him.
I don't buy his story about him being an angel warning would be visitors.
He's gone on record saying that he's a concerned citizen dismayed by
escalating crime and that by warning would be visitors, he hopes local
politicians will get the message to do a better job. Now, I really can't see
the logic in how transient visitors without voting powers could sway our
politicians. If he's trying to tell would be visitors to stay away, make the
tourism industry suffer and thereby get them to put pressure on the
politicians, then I know he's not concerned citizen because a such a person
would not try to endanger the jobs of thousands of fellow residents directly
and indirectly tied to tourism. That would result in more destitute people
prone to crime. If you really want to make the opinions of visitors count,
swell their numbers and economic influence, not make them irrelevent by
deterring them away. Oddly, "Mike" is a resident of Toronto but I doubt that
he's a native to the city. The majority of residents were neither born nor
raised here. Many are Canadians from other parts of the country who settled
here for economic reasons but vocally hold a grudge against the city in
which they reside, a uniquely Canadian situation. Even if "Mike" was a
native or long time resident, he's not helping to improve the situation as a
truly concerned citizen would.
To summarize, I discredit "Mike's" portrayal of Toronto as a dangerous city
by pointing out
a. the irrefutable numbers
b. his use of the misinformation and ignorance tactic
c. his outlandish story he's trying to decrease crime by warning would be
visitors.
Points a is factual in nature, the others are, admittedly, character attacks
that question his honesty, credibility and sanity.
I think it's important to keep in mind one kook's distorted view of crime is
not representative of reality. For example, if someone here coupled the
recent sniper attacks in the DC area to tourism for whatever ill reason, it
would not deter me from revisiting such a fine region. It's just that
unfortunately Toronto has, of all cities, got latched on to it someone with
hard feelings, an obsessive personality and likes to take out his feelings
on rec.travel.usa-canada. I ask the audience again to recognize his
fixation is inappropriate to this travel newsgroup. Aside from that,
TheNewsGuy(Mike) has on occasion been an adequate contributor here.
Whenever, he does this again, this FYI will not be far behind.
- Richard Lee
(That by the way is my real name. I do not hide behind anonymous news and
email servers like "Mike" and company. If you were to try to find me based
on my reply email, there will be growing evidence that I exist. This would
not be the case for trolls. For example, you could trace the involv.com
domain eventually to a telephone number of a company in a Toronto suburb,
calling that number would get a receptionist who will be happy to transfer
you to my extension. In summary, my views and facts presented are genuine as
am I. This is not the case for the other side of the debate. Basically, I'm
saying who's more credible based on willingness to take ownership and
responsibility of content.)
"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" <tnguym...@yaho.com> wrote in message
news:3dbbfa6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Alan Pollock
> Don't like Toronto eh? Well friend - an incident in Toronto does not a Detroit make.
But that's no guage. San Diego's no Detroit either. Lots of cities on both
sides of the border are not at all like the bad parts of Detroit.
So let's be real: when you start to compare a city to the bad parts of Detroit
you've given up.
Ergo: no excuse and no solace. Admit what's wrong (there's no shame in that)
and *solve* the problem. Identify and destroy. Fail to identify and you'll
never destroy. Nex
Richard Lee
"Alan Pollock" <n...@nopanix.com> wrote in message
news:api783$ops$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> BraveNewWhirl <braven...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
> So let's be real: when you start to compare a city to the bad parts of
Detroit
> you've given up.
Given southern Ontario is bordered by the rustbelt states, it was only
natural to compare apples to oranges. The more seasoned traveller will know
there is an adundance of great cities in the US sunbelt to where the
momentum has shifted after the American industrial revolution.
Alan, if you have any influence with Mike left, please please urge him to
stop doing this shit. He seems to be unable to refute my arguments as to why
he's wrong yet continues. So I can only guess he's not being driven by
rational, logical choices. He won't respond to me, maybe he will to you.
> Ergo: no excuse and no solace. Admit what's wrong (there's no shame in
that)
> and *solve* the problem. Identify and destroy. Fail to identify and you'll
> never destroy. Nex
- Richard Lee
Peter L
"alohacyberian" <alohac...@att.net> wrote in message
news:01c27dcb$e75d9c20$260b5f0c@KeithMartin...
> TheNewsGuy(Mike) <tnguym...@yaho.com> wrote in article
> <3dbbfa6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
> >
> > ===============================================
> > Night of violence leaves four dead
> > two attackers firing repeatedly at the car, with one man emptying his
> > gun and reloading it.
> >
> > Around 1:30 a.m., two men opened fired at the La Casa banquet hall at
> > 19 Sable St., near Keele St. and Lawrence Ave. Three people were
> > wounded, and one man later died.
> >
> > Just before 2 a.m., two men were shot, one of them fatally, in the
> > Weston Rd. and Lawrence Ave. area.
> >
> > One man was gunned down outside a restaurant at 2011 Lawrence Ave. W.
> > A second man was shot while driving away from the area, after he
> > refused to let a man with a gun take his car.
> >
> I thought guns were illegal in Toronto. KM
So is murder. But it never stops anyone.
alohacyberian
<apik7r$1stc5$1...@ID-110472.news.dfncis.de>...
> "alohacyberian" <alohac...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:01c27dcb$e75d9c20$260b5f0c@KeithMartin...
> > TheNewsGuy(Mike) <tnguym...@yaho.com> wrote in article
> > <3dbbfa6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
> > >
> > > A second man was shot while driving away from the area, after he
> > > refused to let a man with a gun take his car.
> > >
> > I thought guns were illegal in Toronto. KM
>
> So is murder. But it never stops anyone.
>
alohacyberian
probably suggest that he has a strong repressed desire to move to Toronto
to try to win her love back, but, consciously knows that even a mother
wouldn't love him. :-O KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
Richard Lee <REMOVE_...@involv.com> wrote in article
<ql0v9.94867$Q3S....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> Mike, when you start naming someone, like me, as being your nemesis, you
> make it personal. It's also a self fulfilling prophecy.
>
> With regard to point c, it's unfortunate with this sort of thing is so
easy
> to do, he will be doing it again. He will unlikely stop until the
audience
> in this newsgroup do not take him seriously - this is just simple child
> psychology.
> > "TheNewsGuy(Mike)" <tnguym...@yaho.com> wrote in message
> > news:3dbbfa6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Alan Pollock
> Alan, if you have any influence with Mike left, please please urge him to
> stop doing this shit. He seems to be unable to refute my arguments as to why
> he's wrong yet continues. So I can only guess he's not being driven by
> rational, logical choices. He won't respond to me, maybe he will to you.
I'm not that engaged in the 'debate', Richard, and I don't know 'Mike'. I've
always been on the sidelines in this interminable Toronto debate.
I can appreciate your points of course, but my take is that you both care
about and for Toronto, yet have two diametrically opposed ways of perceiving
its problems.
If Mike's stark heads-up posts grate, they still have their use. If your
mollifications smooth things out, there's a need for that too. Nex
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
<n...@nopanix.com> wrote:
>...my take is that you both care
>about and for Toronto, yet have two diametrically opposed ways of perceiving
>its problems.
>If Mike's stark heads-up posts grate, they still have their use. If your
>mollifications smooth things out, there's a need for that too. Nex
Thank you Alan; you are correct. I care a lot about my city and I am
disgusted with what is happening to it.
My posts, BTW, are not my own "troll" information; all I have done the
last three "Toronto posts" is quote a front page article from the
Toronto Star newspaper about the serious increase in gun crime, social
problems and infrastructure decay introduced in this city in the past
decade or so.
What bothers me is the lack of reality of our citizens not to stand up
and say "recognize it", "stop it", "fix it"... of course some just
bury their head under the sand and say... "detroit is worse." Sure,
but at one time we were not even close!
Richard
> increasing number of stories, like this one, published in the Toronto
> Star today, but Toronto has fallen hard from it's lofty heights of
> "Safe city", "Clean city',... What a shame!
<news report snipped>
I suspect you're referring to Richard Lee, but what the heck....
Um, so what? Do you think that was the first instance of violent crime
Toronto has ever seen? Do you think anyone actually ever thought it was
crime-free? Why do you bother posting stuff like that? Didn't it occur to
you that if someone wanted to keep up to date on crimes in Toronto, they'd
read the newspapers themselves rather than a travel newsgroup? Did you know
that other Canadian cities - ones that many people would actually think of
as being safer than Toronto - have more violent crime than Toronto?
Your post says I'm-a-shit-disturbing-troll all over it, so while I recognise
that people have the freedom to say what they will, I beseech you to stop
posting that type of stuff.
Richard
whit...@webtv.net
Richard Lee
> Thank you Alan; you are correct. I care a lot about my city and I am
> disgusted with what is happening to it.
Mike, I played a few angles before to see if you could be put up to your
word but I see those soft approaches will never work.
Bull fuckin' shit you care a lot. No sir, you are out to destroy this city
and you'd like to see nothing better. Can anyone figure out his logic: he
loves Toronto so much that he wants everyone in the world to hold a low
regard for it. Pretense, a cover story and a shoddy one at that.
> My posts, BTW, are not my own "troll" information; all I have done the
> last three "Toronto posts" is quote a front page article from the
The newspaper merely reports, the troll then posts. Just three you say? The
pattern is the same now as it was for years. It ain't just three, Mike. It's
three since you resumed your old ways possibly in retaliation to my Press
Release in this newsgroup last month. You know what I'm talking about.
Just as a dare, I'd like to see you doing what you're doing now for any
city, pick one, any one. Gawd help us, why did this one wacko happen to be a
Toronto basher too.
> What bothers me is the lack of reality of our citizens not to stand up
> and say "recognize it", "stop it", "fix it"... of course some just
Then stop nagging about it here and do something about it. I recall telling
you this time and time again with giving suggestions too how to go about it.
But NO, that was never your intent to fix problems. You wouldn't be able to
relish in this troll activity anymore if that was so.
> bury their head under the sand and say... "detroit is worse." Sure,
> but at one time we were not even close!
And it's still not!! Toronto is safer than it ever was population adjusted.
It's not getting worse like you'd want to mislead others.
Listen you %tre#$ijs* dickhead, you can continue to do this, you can even
bring on your assistants, fellow Toronto haters "Harry", "Ned", "Oscar
Gladstone", "Bill", "Bob Weiss", etc. just like before in that old scam, but
whenever you do this, I will not be far away. I hate fakes and liars, you
are the biggest fake and liar. So go ahead and sue me over this slander, I
want to see your face in court. Well folks, should I threaten him with
physical violence so that the cops can come arrest me? I'm not hard to
trace, never let it be. Of course, I'd be entitled to know all about "Mike"
at that point. And yes, it's gotten very personal.
- Richard Lee
GaryZ
That's not true. There is just more paperwork involved in registration
nowadays. That has to do with Canada nationwide, it's not specific to
Toronto.
Richard Lee
"Richard" <th...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:apk6rg$qp3$1...@dns3.cae.ca...
> Your post says I'm-a-shit-disturbing-troll all over it, so while I
recognise
> that people have the freedom to say what they will, I beseech you to stop
> posting that type of stuff.
Others including myself have tried to reason with him using similar rational
arguments you presented and more but to no avail even after years of effort.
It is not in the nature of trolls to do a self examination.
- Richard Lee
GaryZ
> It seems only the criminals are allowed to have guns in Canada. Its
> illegal to even have a can of mace in Canada to protect yourself. Every
> time I crossed the border into Canada by myself,, being a woman,, I was
> always asked.."Do you have any mace with you?"
> Makes no sense to me, why I can't protect myself with a can of mace,
> when all the criminals are running around with guns and knives.
Mace is a prohibited substance in Canada, not to be confused with
pepper spray.
Although, the use of pepper spray is generally illegal, unless you
happen to be using it against a dog attack.
Self-defense, while a right of every person in Canada, is generally
prosecuted by the authorities whenever possible. Even people who have
been attacked in their homes in the middle of the night, have been
charged by police for using weapons against the perpetrators.
GaryZ
> Night of violence leaves four dead
I'm surprised you didn't notice the shooting incidents from the
previous weekend. There were several, and at least a couple of murders
in the entertainment district.
GaryZ
> One thing I've noticed about a good portion of similar shootings in and
> around Vancouver is that the victims share a similar last name -
> "Knowntopolice". Do some of them have relatives in Toronto?
Toronto's gun problems are predominantly the same as in US cities:
young black males shooting other young black males. It's pretty
straightforward. Outside of that, Toronto streets are as safe as your
own backyard.
GaryZ
>
> Don't like Toronto eh? Well friend - an incident in Toronto does not a Detroit make.
Detroit, city proper, is basically one million black folks, surrounded
by another four million metro area white residents. I would bet that
taking the inner city out of the equation, Detroit Metro has a
substantially lower murder rate, approaching even that of Toronto.
GaryZ
>
> Thank you Alan; you are correct. I care a lot about my city and I am
> disgusted with what is happening to it.
It's already happened. Once you see this kind of stuff on a regular
basis, as we have been, the dam has already broke.
I can understand your frustration that people refused to listen when
there was still time to keep a good city good. It's exponentially
difficult, if not impossible, to get it back into shape once the weeds
take root.
>
> What bothers me is the lack of reality of our citizens not to stand up
> and say "recognize it", "stop it", "fix it"... of course some just
> bury their head under the sand and say... "detroit is worse." Sure,
> but at one time we were not even close!
The lack of reality would have been bad enough, but what is really bad
is the smugness and the silencing of anyone who would be gutsy enough
to voice a contrary opinion. (This of course is a general problem in
Canada, where other points of view are "tolerated" but seen as
"unhelpful" and "US-style rabble rousing". For those not aware of
Canadian culture and sensitivities, anything described as "US-style"
is supposed to be frowned upon.)
GaryZ
> his motive last year wrote he is out to counter the misinformation that
> Toronto is a clean safe city. I am here to counter *his* misinformation of
> portraying Toronto as some kind of war zone where certain death awaits
> visitors.
Maybe this is where the problem is: Were you puffing up Toronto with
it's older reputation as being incredibly clean and safe? Perhaps he
went to balance it out and then you got into a polarized
back-and-forth.
> by a naive poster, a Canadian resentful of Toronto being the superpower in
> Canada,
You've got to admit that this describes a lot of Canadians!
> Consider the big picture in the newspaper story that accompanied the
> initiating post. That multi-homicide reported in story he copied and pasted
> from The Toronto Star brings the total of murders in Toronto thus far in the
> calendar year to 48.
It seems kind of crazy to gauge the quality of life in a city simply
on the murder rate. There are many other issues that affect it. But as
for the murder rate, Toronto has consistently averaged about one
murder per week over the past ten years. (Talking about the current
city, which has a population of about two and a half million
residents.)
> His arguments rely soley on
> sensationalism of infrequent events. He offers no analysis
I don't think that's entirely true. Didn't he make the point that
these incidents are becoming a regular part of a changed city? This
was certainly supported by statements made by police chief Fantino in
today's news conference.
John Ramsay
"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:18:46 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
> <n...@nopanix.com> wrote:
>
> >...my take is that you both care
> >about and for Toronto, yet have two diametrically opposed ways of perceiving
> >its problems.
> >If Mike's stark heads-up posts grate, they still have their use. If your
> >mollifications smooth things out, there's a need for that too. Nex
>
> Thank you Alan; you are correct. I care a lot about my city and I am
> disgusted with what is happening to it.
>
> My posts, BTW, are not my own "troll" information; all I have done the
> last three "Toronto posts" is quote a front page article from the
> Toronto Star newspaper about the serious increase in gun crime, social
> problems and infrastructure decay introduced in this city in the past
> decade or so.
>
> What bothers me is the lack of reality of our citizens not to stand up
> and say "recognize it", "stop it", "fix it"... of course some just
> bury their head under the sand and say... "detroit is worse." Sure,
> but at one time we were not even close!
>
You started this troll by posting an articel from the Toronto Sun.
Why did you not post the article from yesterday's Toronto Sun that
contradicts you by saying Toronto murder rates have been stable
for some years. Not constantly escalating as you claim?
The article has all sorts of stats showing that Toronto and Canada
have a much lower homicide rate than the US.
Did you just kinda miss that article?
alohacyberian
<6bf5d08.02102...@posting.google.com>...
that the sun shines on Toronto - would your knee-jerk retort be that it
isn't specific to Toronto? And would you expect me to respond with, "Oh,
gollee, Jim-Bob, I never thought of that! You musta been ta colludge!" KM
alohacyberian
<apjkgm$8ju$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
> Richard Lee <REMOVE_...@involv.com> wrote:
>
> If Mike's stark heads-up posts grate, they still have their use.
>
Richard Lee
new assistant to TheNewsGuy(Mike), your support alters the apparent show of
numbers. Feel free to interpret this statement as you are so inclined.
Now let me respond to you since I am the lead on the opposite side of the
debate.
"GaryZ" <ga...@canada.com> wrote in message
news:6bf5d08.02102...@posting.google.com...
> Maybe this is where the problem is: Were you puffing up Toronto with
> it's older reputation as being incredibly clean and safe? Perhaps he
> went to balance it out and then you got into a polarized
> back-and-forth.
The cleanliness reputation is still valid even as (a) other cities have
caught up to the Toronto standard, (b) it will take time before the
newcomers become civic minded with regard to littering, not that it's any
dirtier than any other major city.
It is still safe, safer than it ever was. Read the stats. This reputation
too is not outdated.
> You've got to admit that this describes a lot of Canadians!
It's the Canadians who want to trash Toronto's image. That includes the huge
number of expats from other parts of the country living here. They ought to
be careful with their litter, like use the provided bins instead of having
the attitude this is not their city or enacting their resentment.
> It seems kind of crazy to gauge the quality of life in a city simply
> on the murder rate. There are many other issues that affect it. But as
> for the murder rate, Toronto has consistently averaged about one
> murder per week over the past ten years. (Talking about the current
> city, which has a population of about two and a half million
> residents.)
Yes it is crazy to guage quality of life that way. But that is what Mike is
doing with posts like this. Read his message. You support my point on this.
One murder a week average is 52/year. That's about right according to stats.
That makes it very safe in a city of 2½ million. It's not getting worse; the
rate has actually gotten better from 1980's.
> I don't think that's entirely true. Didn't he make the point that
> these incidents are becoming a regular part of a changed city? This
> was certainly supported by statements made by police chief Fantino in
> today's news conference.
Cops have their own agenda to portray the city requiring more police
services and more money thrown at them in competition with other municiple
departments given the tax budject is overstreched.
Homicide has always been a fabric of life. They already were a regular part
of an EVER changing city. It's regular but it's better than it ever was in
Toronto despite what Mike posts here. His argument is still not valid!
- Richard Lee
Richard Lee
> Toronto's gun problems are predominantly the same as in US cities:
> young black males shooting other young black males. It's pretty
> straightforward. Outside of that, Toronto streets are as safe as your
> own backyard.
I don't know where you get that idea. News don't deliberately report
ethnicity unless you could derive it from, say, the surname.
Decades ago the murder rate was higher and the city was less multicultural.
Does that say anything?
Homicide is most closely related to economic class.
- Richard Lee
Richard Lee
> Well, Mr. Z, a warm welcome to the usenet just in time for this thread.
Are you a zee or a zed? It appears to me a zed.
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
>
>"GaryZ" <ga...@canada.com> wrote in message
>news:6bf5d08.02102...@posting.google.com...
>> Toronto's gun problems are predominantly the same as in US cities:
>> young black males shooting other young black males....
No, I think you have a whole lot too many white people going around
shooting each other too.
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:12:09 GMT, "Richard Lee"
<REMOVE_...@involv.com> wrote:
>I don't know where you get that idea. News don't deliberately report
>ethnicity unless you could derive it from, say, the surname.
This is the kind of "burying one's head under the sand" political
correctness that is allowing this problem to fester.
Of course it is the young black males that have increasingly solved
their drug selling and other problems with guns in Toronto. Am I
racist for saying this - I suppose that will be the first reaction to
accuse me of it. It is the easiest way to discredit an argument. But
I am not. There IS a growing problem here and by saying, "well,
white people are safe so it's okay". Is NOT okay. Many innocent
black people have been injured and killed in these shootings too. If
we are to be a multiracial multicultural city then a problem in one
community is a problem for all of us and we should not turn a blind
eye to it. We have to face it, find the cause(s) and solve it.
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
<REMOVE_...@involv.com> wrote:
>I don't know where you get that idea. News don't deliberately report
>ethnicity ...
I'd say today's Star article does...
=========================
. . .
One man is white, 18 to 19 years, with light coloured hair, a stocky
build, with a black and white baseball cap with the letters NY on the
front, a dark gray sweater with a hood, black jeans, a black jacket,
black shoes and black gloves.
A second man is black with a medium complexion, between 24 to 25
years, around 5 feet, 6 inches tall, with a skinny build, short
cropped hair, blue jeans and a dark gray Nike sweater with a hood.
The third suspect is black with a muscular build, between 20 to 21
years, similar height to the second suspect, with hair in cornrows, a
white and blue tracksuit and boots. All the suspects were carrying
handguns.
. . .
(our police chief says...)
"Collectively all of us have to share the responsibility for what is
happening in our society and all of us share equally in solving these
problems that we are facing," Fantino said.
"We have a network of gunmen who are well armed and predisposed to
using firearms ... whenever there's a dispute or disagreement. I'm
very concerned about the safety of the public and I'm just as
concerned about the safety of our police officers."
================================================
Why do you think the chief used the word . . . "COLLECTIVELY"...
Because he is saying the same thing *I* am saying (that I said earlier
in another post) - that a problem in one of our "communities" is a
problem for all of us in Toronto if we are to be a united, inclusive
city. That there is a small but growing network of black males that
are solving their problems with guns on our streets and we all have to
work together to stop it . . . hat those in the black community with
information have a duty to come forward,...
Alan Pollock
> Alan Pollock <n...@nopanix.com> wrote in article
> <apjkgm$8ju$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
>> Richard Lee <REMOVE_...@involv.com> wrote:
>>
>> If Mike's stark heads-up posts grate, they still have their use.
>>
> Please explain their use. KM
It's the search and destroy thing. Grab it, raise it up in the air so everyone
can see, and do something about it. Just like we in the US did in the 90's
(it's changing again, going the other way), after an immense amount of
whining, harranging and self-absorbtion, solutions were finally put in place.
It was not done by saying that everything was fine. Downtown areas were not
cleaned-up (San Diego being a good example - in the 80's the Gaslamp was a
crime-ridden hellhole) by being all defensive and public-relations-ish.
Toronto should be just as crime-free as it was 15 years ago. Why isn't it?
It's a valid question.
Now let's get something else out of the way: homidice rates. Homicide rates
are generally higher in the US due to the availability of illegal guns,
unregistered guns - and the fact that there are so many of them. That's not
the case in Canada. Generally less murders per capita.
But how about violence rates? Rapes, muggings, stabbings, beatings, violent
thefts of all kinds. I don't see too many people coming in to talk about them
in a Canada/US way that's favorable to Canada. There's a reason for that. But
it's another subject.
For a problem to be addressed it needs to be clearly perceived first, because
those who can do something are elected by the people, who can either hide
their heads under the sand, or elect folks who do something about it.
Now as for the appropriateness of those Mike posts in this particular group, I
side with Richard Lee on that. It's not the appropriate group at all. Oh, a
couple of times perhaps. But these interminable posts over years? No. I don't
see it.
Of course that works both ways. It's not as if Toronto is the only place
gratuitously slammed in this newsgroup. Mike's posts are factual and
self-serving. Many of the slams against other places are vague (often
factually wrong) and self-serving. Which is worse? Nex
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
...
>For a problem to be addressed it needs to be clearly perceived first, because
>those who can do something are elected by the people, who can either hide
>their heads under the sand, or elect folks who do something about it.
Yes, and for the fear of being labelled (incorrectly) racist, people
are pussy footing around the problem here.
BTW even though our homicide rate is low compared to a lot of American
cities . . .our Gun Related murders have doubled in the past year...
And that is the growing problem.
GaryZ
> > "alohacyberian" <alohac...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:<01c27dcb$e75d9c20$260b5f0c@KeithMartin>...
> > > I thought guns were illegal in Toronto. KM
then, soon after,
"he wrote in message news:<01c27f2c$6c6bfc20$42085f0c@KeithMartin>...
> Uh, no one suggested they were specific to Toronto.
My "knee-jerk" reaction was actually an attempt to point out to those
who may not be aware, that firearm legislation a Canada-wide, federal
jurisdiction.
If you travel in the US, you'll find that even though there are
federal US laws, gun legislation is also state-specific, and there are
many municipal regulations as well.
GaryZ
> "GaryZ" <ga...@canada.com> wrote in message
> news:6bf5d08.02102...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Toronto's gun problems are predominantly the same as in US cities:
> > young black males shooting other young black males. It's pretty
> > straightforward. Outside of that, Toronto streets are as safe as your
> > own backyard.
>
> I don't know where you get that idea. News don't deliberately report
> ethnicity unless you could derive it from, say, the surname.
Of course they do. Haven't you seen the pictures of victims? Have you
missed the descriptions of the shooters?
>
> Decades ago the murder rate was higher and the city was less multicultural.
> Does that say anything?
Again, I think you're mistaken. The murder rate in Toronto has always
been very low. In it's worst years, the absolute numbers were not of
much significance (70 or 80 compared to 60 presently). It's not like
saying New York today has 400 annually compared to 1200 in it's bad
times.
And remember too, we're talking here about guns, specifically
handguns. The
use of these weapons was extremely rare in Toronto until now. Chief
Fantino is right to draw attention to this significant and dangerous
trend. A lot of bystanders are now being injured as the bullets begin
to fly around crowded nightclubs. (It's not the same as someone taking
a pipe or a knife or a fist to a victim. The public safety is much
more at risk.)
La
> Homicide is most closely related to economic class.
I don't see how this comment is relevant to any of this. I don't think
there is any correlation to this in Toronto's case. But like I said,
the increased handgun violence in Toronto is predominantly young black
males vs. other young black males. I am under the impression that many
of them are middle class, but if you have any information about that,
you should mention it.
GaryZ
> This is the kind of "burying one's head under the sand" political
> correctness that is allowing this problem to fester.
Exactly. The worst form of prejudice is cultivated by the liberal type
political correctness we find everywhere nowadays.
It allows the very people they presume to help, to languish in
ever-worsening situations.
You can see what happened in the United States. The good people who
lived in high-crime and/or ghetto areas were confined to be victimized
by the predators in their own neighborhoods because the
politically-correct liberals didn't have the will to take action
against the violent criminals on account of their ethnicity.
When an inner city resident of an ethnically segregated housing
project calls 911 in an emergency, they wonder how come it takes the
police twice as long to attend. Because they are forced to wait for
backups, required by the policies implemented for various reasons by
the politically-correct liberals who now control everything. Does a
police officer even dare to rush in to help, lest he be summoned by
the SIU and made an example of?
alohacyberian
<3dbebf1...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
> cities . . .our Gun Related murders have doubled in the past year...
>
alohacyberian
<WWvv9.97632$mxk1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
remember vut he zed. KM
Richard Lee
> > Are you a zee or a zed? It appears to me a zed.
> >
> Zee kvetchtion is a good one: I talked to him about it, but I don't
> remember vut he zed. KM
Listen you hula dancing, pineapple chomping Hawaii lover :) hehe, it is
pronounced Zee in America and Zed in Canada incase you weren't aware of that
trivia.
Your website will be quite useful in planning my first visit to HI and the
other pages of links were quite interesting too. But, man, couldn't you
select some colours (colors to the Yanks) that are easier on the eyes?
Thanks.
- Richard Lee
Richard Lee
> > Homicide is most closely related to economic class.
>
> I don't see how this comment is relevant to any of this. I don't think
> there is any correlation to this in Toronto's case. But like I said,
> the increased handgun violence in Toronto is predominantly young black
You don't get my most important point?! It isn't a problem among negroes per
se like you and "Mike" think.
- Richard Lee
Richard Lee
"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" <tnguym...@yaho.com> wrote in message
news:3dbebf1...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> BTW even though our homicide rate is low compared to a lot of American
> cities . . .our Gun Related murders have doubled in the past year...
>
> And that is the growing problem.
Ah, back to the topic of guns in Toronto. Maybe you ought to get Tony
Embarcadaro in here, wink wink nudge nudge. He exists to handle that
department wink wink nudge nudge. But oh! He's ALREADY here isn't he!
So what if gun related muders have doubled, tripled, quadrupled. A murder is
a murder is a murder. The method is irrelevent. How dare you segregate one
cause over another. As the saying goes, guns don't kill people....
Even if all the guns were magically removed, there would still be homicides.
The fact is, there has been a slight trend down in homicide rate with or
without more guns and negroes on the scene.
You keep bringing up the gun thing. It appears to be central to your
thinking and of personal relevence. So whatever that chip on your should is
about, guns and negroes have something to do with it.
- Richard Lee
Richard Lee
shoulder has got something to do with gun toting negroes.
Well, Mike, you're fixated on something for sure. It must be eating away at
the back of your mind every day. So you therefore must have dreamed up with
some solutions. I'm going to put you up to your own words. You claim to love
the city so much and is saddened by its deterioration. Tell us those
solutions. Tell us what YOU are going to do to help. I asked you this again
and again before but you never gave an answer. I'd be surprised if you did
this time. I'd like the audience to see that you have no intent of seeing
any improvements for that would be contrary to your ulterior motives.
- Richard Lee
David Gibson
"Thou zed,
Thou unnecessary letter!"
(William Shakespeare)
Dave Smith
> > > Are you a zee or a zed? It appears to me a zed.
> > >
> > Zee kvetchtion is a good one: I talked to him about it, but I don't
> > remember vut he zed. KM
>
> Listen you hula dancing, pineapple chomping Hawaii lover :) hehe, it is
> pronounced Zee in America and Zed in Canada incase you weren't aware of that
> trivia.
It is zed in English. Only is Merkin is it zee.
Dave Smith
> > I don't see how this comment is relevant to any of this. I don't think
> > there is any correlation to this in Toronto's case. But like I said,
> > the increased handgun violence in Toronto is predominantly young black
>
> You don't get my most important point?! It isn't a problem among negroes per
> se like you and "Mike" think.
Per se? Almost all of the suspects in these hand gun incidents have been young
black males. ALmost all of the victims have been young black mails. Most of the
incidents have happened at after hours clubs attended almost exclusively by
young blacks. Where does the per se come into the equation?
Richard Lee
"assistants" - the kind that magically appear out of the blue and
synergistically engage in supporting Mike's contentions. That has been the
recurring pattern of these anti-Toronto topics since I started monitoring
them. It's the same story now. Look at the writings of this new guy GaryZ.
They support, reinforce and reiterate Mike's. There's nothing wrong with
this per se *but* because these imposters have acted accordingly in the
past, I am wary. So I investigated and came to writing this report.
The use of imposter news posters frustrates me because the other side of the
debate, the trolls, have no hesitation of using them. Out of principle, I am
curtailed in employing the same sleazy technique, one of the oldest of troll
tactics. The problem is the puffed up numbers of them suggest consensus
which sways unwary readers. I want readers to take these anti-Toronto posts
with a grain of salt. I'm not asking to automatically dismiss them as works
of trolls to favour my arguments mind you but certainly try reading between
the lines.
If the imposters have been around before, they are here now and will be back
again.
Summary of the details:
1. GaryZ ga...@canada.com is an imposter.
2. TheNewsGuy(Mike) and GaryZ are different persons. But
3. TheNewsGuy(Mike) has stooped to using imposters.
I know this is a long post as many of mine are but if you read the whole
thing, you'll gain an insight into what is going on in these recursive
anti-Toronto topics.
The audience may be wondering why I do this. Well, simply because I find it
amusing and mentally stimulating. At the same time, I find it satisfying to
expose corruption, deceit and lies. I want the audience to know what sleazes
these two trolls are and that their stories about being saddened by supposed
deterioration is a cover only to portray Toronto as a worthless city. They
have a chip on their shoulders the size of a boulder. They're just immature
to take it out on an entire city.
- Richard Lee
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. GaryZ ga...@canada.com is an imposter.
He was Tony Embarcadaro tonyemb...@buffalo.com in the previous
anti-Toronto thread, "Toronto, (It used to be SO clean)" which was a topic
initiated who else but by Mike only a couple weeks ago.
How do I know? First, they both focus on guns and Toronto. Not unusual in
itself but consider the other similarities.
Compare their writing styles. They are identical. The average sentence and
paragraph lengths are the same. The prose is exceptionally well written
indicating education and intelligence, not to get carried away with
compliments. Sentences are fragmented. There is an excess of commas used.
Numbers are spelled out. There is very frequent use of sentences enclosed in
brackets at the end of paragraphs - this is a very unique style. I have not
yet looked for stock phrases, tenses, and tonalities but the preceding is
already a plethora of matches. This is how I link GaryZ to Tony Embarcadaro.
Everyone has a writing style. It's like a fingerprint. A better analogy
would handwriting analysis. If you look at my writing, you'll note a lot of
run on sentences and sentences that start with But and So. I also tend to
write near essay length posts such as this very one. *I* like to use first
person words "I", "me" and "mine".
Now I link Tony Embarcadaro to another character. I didn't do a full
comparative analysis on this one but I bet he's also played Even Berman last
year, a guy in western New York just like Tony who is said to have been
living there for a couple of years after having lived in other parts of the
US. Thus implying broad knowledge. Both said to often visit Toronto on work
related meetings with customers, both in biomedical instruments field. How
nice that they they live close enough to provide knowledgable commentary and
offer a supposedly impartial outsider's opinion which of course later turned
out to be very opinionated, especially about guns and Torontonians.
The problem is, both Tony and Evan knew just *too* much about Toronto.
That's another strong indication they are not who they claim they are. In my
personal correspondences with *both* of them (I knew what they were leading
up to but used their own confidence game so that they reveal things about
themselves to me), their knowledge of Toronto events is quite extensive
dating back to the 1970's. There's no frikken way somebody who lives in a
nearby city in another country let alone only 2 years there could know
*that* much. They were not knowledgeable about western New York except to
from a Toronto perspective, eg. it was a place Torontonians used to go for
fun. Why wouldn't they know more about Buffalo if they were only occasional
visitors to Toronto? This time, GaryZ makes no pretenses that he's in
Toronto.
Their methodology was the same. They all took a few weeks and several posts
to *establish* their identity in this newsgroup and gain trust initally with
harmless requests for help. These are related to Toronto because that is
eventually what they were going to focus on, in other words let everyone get
comfortable with that. For example, Even Berman started with a question
about the best route between Buffalo and Toronto as if you couldn't see that
plainly on a map, Tony Embarcadaro with gun ranges in Toronto (the first one
I noticed but he had a presence bit before), and now this GaryZ puts out a
rash of inquires about parking in Toronto, distance from USA and Canadian vs
US fuel. For the benefit of usenet readers, the discussions they create may
be useful but understand they exist for an ulterior motive. After that
initial confidence building period, they engage in what those identities
were specifically created for - guns and Toronto.
There was at least one more time that this sort of thing happened from
recollection off the top of my head. Someone claiming to be moving from
Toronto to the US wanted to compare gun useage and laws. He spoke
condescendingly about Toronto. This was sometime in the December 2000
timeframe. I'd have to go a huge database file of saved usenet messages
sitting on the D drive to research that and other similar occurences. I'm
pretty sure it's the same guy though. In any caes for the time being, this
"Toronto gun" character is as recursive as these types of crime-in-Toronto
posts in rec.travel.usa-canada. This has going on for several years. So some
things never change even if the pen names of trolls do.
The sole purpose of all of these temporary identities is to talk about guns
and Toronto, exhaust their arguments, take a short break and then come back
again under a new name and repeat the same old arguments. This is so that
readers do not get tired of them and make it appear many people are of the
same opinion. It is human nature to be susceptable to peer pressure and the
trolls try to exploit that.
So I hope this report offers insights. Unfortunately, like germs getting
tolerant of antibiotics, continuously getting exposed as fraud makes him
ever better about covering his tracks. Not impossible to detect mind you in
the future, but more challenging. I have to reveal the evidence otherwise my
arguments are worth squat. He may get more clever and there will no doubt be
anti-Toronto troll activity again.
I want the audience to take further anti-Torontoism in this newsgroup with a
grain of salt. In all my years working in hospitality as a youth, I never
heard a complaint from visitors outside of Canada about Toronto. The one
exception was very difficult lady from Brooklyn regarding the hotel room
rate but that wasn't about Toronto the city. The anti-Torontoism appears to
be coming from other Canadians resentful of Toronto being the superpower in
Canada even among the ones who have relocated to this city.
I also want the audience to take the *number* of anti-Toronto voices in the
newsroup with a grain of salt. It's the same guy doing this thing over and
over again for years and years with different internet handles. Actually,
there are 2.
2. TheNewsGuy(Mike) and GaryZ are different persons.
Insofar as this amateur psycholinguistic analysis of their postings go, I
think we are dealing with 2 different persons. However, both are residents
of Toronto whose aim is to put down Toronto. I don't think they are native
Torontonians but they appear to have been here a long time from their
knowledge.
For those in the audience who have witnessed these anti-Toronto posts for
years, let it be known all those countless number of identities that came
and went in this "interminable" Toronto debate came from only 2 wackos.
3. TheNewsGuy(Mike) has stooped to using imposters.
Mike has had scores of other dubious "assistants" before.
Mike is now using Bell Sympatico DSL. But his ISP used to be primus.ca. So
was that of Harry, Oscar Gladstone, Bill, Bob Weiss, etc. Nearly a dozen
short term usenet posters specific to this group, all vehemently against
Toronto that came and went one by one. *I have been monitoring these
anti-Toronto threads for quite some time.* "Their" worst in my opinion was
the topic called "Toronto is 1st in bad things" around the March 2001
timeframe.
What is the probability all, including Mike himself, would use an obscure
ISP, among dozens available, and be Toronto bashers? How fishy is it when
they all write about the same topics in the same manner, often replying to
themselves. Again, please take an appearence of a large number of
anti-Toronto types in this newsgroup with a grain of salt.
Mike will not doubt label me paranoid as his only defence. Mike, what I did
was no different than what detectives at any law enforcement agency do on a
regular basis. They in fact would use even slimmer leads to solve cases.
Stephen Farrow
>
> Chief Fantino is right
Yes he is. He's far right.
Stephen
--
"First of all, you're going to need a live chicken and a working
knowledge of Latin..."
Alan Pollock
You mean in British English versus American English. The English Language has
both forms under it. Snobs notwithstanding. Nex
GaryZ
> You don't get my most important point?! It isn't a problem among negroes per
> se like you and "Mike" think.
Let's be sure we're talking about the same thing. What I think, and
what I said was, that the violent use of firearms, specifically
handguns, in Toronto has been escalating rapidly. And that
predominantly, the people shooting the weapons, as well as the
victims, are young black males.
Let me add, of course, that there are likely no more than a few
hundred of these characters in our midst. Enough to cause a commotion,
for sure, but I am in no way trying to label the other quarter of a
million law-abiding black people in Toronto with this. I understand
that we have to be aware of bigots ready to hijack these discussions,
etc. but Mike has a point when he says that burying our heads and
trying to suppress valid information is wrong.
alohacyberian
in England for a while and have good friends in Canada and visit them often
and we talk about everything from A to Z. I hope you find my website
useful in planning your trip and other things. *sigh* The old color
controversy again. I have some friends who raved about the colors while
others panned them by such remarks as "they hurt my eyes" [my retort: you
spend too much time in front of a monitor and/or need to go to the eye
doctor] to: "Gee, you sure picked some obnoxious colors, didn't you?"
What to do? I've taken all this under advisement, but the jury is still
out.... Bon voyage! KM
alohacyberian
~ Simon Le Bon
Dave Smith
> > It is zed in English. Only is Merkin is it zee.
>
> You mean in British English versus American English. The English Language has
> both forms under it. Snobs notwithstanding. Nex
British English? English is the language spoken in the UK and in many other
countries around the world. It is just plain "English".
Ed Lenarcic
Having had the entertainment of watching a small-town Scotsman trying to
communicate with an outback Australian - with very little success - I'm
convinced that there is no such thing as "just plain English".
Alan Pollock
So there's English and 'Merkin'? Because if that's what you think, please
state it clearly. Nex
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
wrote:
...
>Having had the entertainment of watching a small-town Scotsman trying to
>communicate with an outback Australian - with very little success - I'm
>convinced that there is no such thing as "just plain English".
Ever been to an outport in Newfoundland? Nicest people but I couldn't
understand a word they were saying.
Ed Lenarcic
>
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:53:16 -0500, Ed Lenarcic <e...@interinterlog.com>
> wrote:
>
> ...
> >Having had the entertainment of watching a small-town Scotsman trying to
> >communicate with an outback Australian - with very little success - I'm
> >convinced that there is no such thing as "just plain English".
>
> Ever been to an outport in Newfoundland? Nicest people but I couldn't
> understand a word they were saying.
Yes I have, just a year ago. I agree with your statement 100%.