St Petersburg
Eddy le Couvreur
arrange our trips ourselves. The flights seem easy to arrange, but we're not
sure yet about where to stay. We get different reports about Sovetskaya,
Moskva and Oktiabrskaya hotels. Some say they're grim and dirty others say
they've cleaned up their act. What should we believe? Are there other
mid-range alternatives (max $100/night/room).
Regards,
--
-------
Eddy
www.couvreur.demon.nl
devil
> We want to spend 5 days in St Petersburg (Russia) this autumn. We always
> arrange our trips ourselves. The flights seem easy to arrange, but we're not
> sure yet about where to stay. We get different reports about Sovetskaya,
> Moskva and Oktiabrskaya hotels. Some say they're grim and dirty others say
> they've cleaned up their act. What should we believe? Are there other
> mid-range alternatives (max $100/night/room).
When we stayed at Sovietskaya (I think in 1998), the water was real brown.
And I came back with giardia. I can't tell whether I accidentally ended
up in contact with water or whether it was from the fod.
This is one of the worst hotels I ever stayed at.
Oh, and my wife and I each got a bill for half of the total...
Helmut Uttenthaler
"Eddy le Couvreur" <eddy...@xs4all.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:vjauu1c...@corp.supernews.com...
> We want to spend 5 days in St Petersburg (Russia) this autumn. We always
> arrange our trips ourselves. The flights seem easy to arrange, but we're
not
> sure yet about where to stay. We get different reports about Sovetskaya,
> Moskva and Oktiabrskaya hotels.
I stayed at Hotel Moskva two years ago. It was not dirty at all, breakfast
was fine too.
The only thing I missed was an air condition, because my room was on the
southern side...
--
Regards,
Helmut Uttenthaler,
Graz
Casey
> real brown.
I stayed at the Pulkovskaya and Pribaltiskaya and both had water
with some color, though it wasn't quite brown. Keep your mouth
shut in the shower.
> And I came back with giardia. I can't tell whether I accidentally
> ended up in contact with water or whether it was from the fod.
Giardia is rampant in the city water supply system. I only drank
bottled water there, even brushing my teeth and rinsing my tooth-
brush with it, and I never got sick, but other people I knew got
sick.
Casey
devil
I thought I had taken the same precautions. I still got sick.
Øystein
> We want to spend 5 days in St Petersburg (Russia) this autumn. We always
> arrange our trips ourselves. The flights seem easy to arrange, but we're not
> sure yet about where to stay. We get different reports about Sovetskaya,
> Moskva and Oktiabrskaya hotels.
I don't know how much you know about Russia / St. Petersburg so
forgive me if I get you info that you already know.
Be aware of the visa rules. To get a tourist visum you need to book
all hotels ahead and get your hotels included in your visum. Changes
during your stay means lots of red tape. With a business visum you
don't need to book ahead, but you need an invitation. You don't have
to be in Russia on business or know any contacts in order to get a the
invitation required, but you have to pay in order to get an
invitation. Generally visums are more expencive the shorter time
notice you need it on. I am a Norwegian citizen, so check out the
rules for citizens from you own country. Americans are among the
contries paying most to get a visum. I is probably a good idea to let
a travel agency book for you in front if this is your fist stay.
I have stayed at Hotel Sovjetskaja and visited Hotel Moskva.
Sovjetskaja is cheaper than Moskva. Moskva is closer to the city
center and has a higher standard. Try to get a room on one of the
highest floors, where the city view is best. The breakfast was ok, not
better not worse. There are guards on every floor around the clock,
nice beds, a solid lock, bathrooms and televition on the room.
Sovjetskaja is 10 minutes walk from Baltiskaja metro station though
and I if I remember right there is 10-15 miunutes to the main street
Nevsky Prospekt. The St. Petersburg metro is very cheap and
efficient, with a new train every 3 minutes from about 5 am to a
little after midnight. By a multiride ticket. 25 trips (as long as you
want to go with as many trains you want at one time) costs about 20 or
30 rubles.
No matter what hotel you use (perhaps the absolute top class ones have
their own water supply), don't drink the water. St. Petersburg is
situated on swamps, that is why the water from time to time turn
brown. Vacsination against hepatitis A diphentery, thetanuss and
diphtery can be a good idea, though it is very very very unlikely for
you to experience any health problems than diareha for the most.
If you use a taxi be aware that "every vehicle on 4 weels are taxis"
and generelly speaking pirate taxis are quite safe and normal to use.
Also be aware that neither pirat taxis or official taxis uses a meter.
You negotiatre a price when you get in. I recommend you to get a
Russian to negotiate a price for you if that is possible. For a taxi
from Nevsky Prospect to Sovjetskaja as a foreigner you will pay
150-200 rubles. A russian will get you a price around 100 rubles for
the same trip.
Be aware of the two price system on the major tourist attractions.
Foreigners pay from 3-10 times more than Russian citizens. Don't even
try to get a native Russian ticket, unless you speak a very good
Russian!
Stay away from all branches of police officers and always carry your
passport and visum on you. Normally it will not mean anything more
than waste of time when they stop you, but if you have lost your
papers it is not unusual that you have to pay in order for them to let
you go. Some of them are not very polite. It is no need for paranoia
about the police, but stay away from them if you can. Show them your
papers, instead of hading them ower to them whenever possible. Don't
look directly at them, stop or speak in a foreign language in front of
them. Leave a copy of your papers on your hotel room and home before
you leave.
St Petersburg times is published in English for free, and has listings
of what is on in St. Petersburg (www.sptimes.ru on web). Afisha in
good option if you read Russian (www.afisha.ru).
It is a very very very very very good idea to learn the Cyrillic
alphabeth before you go. The metro station signs, the street signs
outside the touristy part of the city center are in Russian only. You
will also experience that menus are in Russian only, or that the
translation in English is older or includes less text than the russian
ones. Once you have learned to read the cyrillic letters a lot of
vocabulary for food, cultural events, types of shops etc. are more or
less the same in Englidh and Russian.
I can give you some specific recomandations on what to see if you are
interested. A Russian Orthodox service, circus, puppet theatre, Krupa
(popular, crowded Russian book market - very good idea) is good ideas
in adition to the musts that you obviously already know.
Generally speaking the souvernir market and people on the street
selling souvernirs offers same or better quality than the tourist
shops for a better price. Have a look around and ask for prices before
you buy. Be aware that painting (mo matter price or age) is very
likely to get you customs problems. There are restrictions on the
number of boxes with black caviar you can take with you home - check
the regulations. There are regualtions on taking out Icons, antiques
and books older than the seventies (and obviously weapons) from
Russia. Military effects as Caps, medicine bottles or other
non-weapon-effects are no prolem at all.
Soviet times are very touchy. One example: A Russian that asked me if
this was my first time in St. Petersburg and me answearing yes, but
that my parents were visiting in 1971, made him look uneased and
responding that was a complete different time.
Øystein
gerald
I drank the water at the Shearton(Now a Malta hotel) and did not get
sick. Must have been own water supply.
On 10 Aug 2003 15:06:37 -0700, oys...@nettkjenning.com (Řystein)
wrote:
>Řystein
voyager
to me that most of the "intourist" era hotels leave a lot to be desired.
The level of personal attention in a small boutique hotel such as the
marshal made a huge amount of difference to us. It appears the Marshal has
(not surprisingly) jumped on the tri-centennial bandwagon as prices now seem
to be in the $130/140 per night range but IMHO a bargain in St Petersburg.
"We stumbled across an absolutely great hotel last year. The Marshal is
located near the Neva embankment and near the Smolny Monastery and
Tsarvariski Palace. The neighborhood is quiet and safe and within walking
distance (for strong walkers) of most of the major tourist spots. The hotel
is small (11 rooms) and immaculate. It was totally refurbished in 2001. In
June 2002, we paid about US$100/night for a small 2 room suite.
(http://www.marshal-hotel.spb.ru/)
The interactive maps at the Saint Petersburg Yellow Pages website helped us
a lot (http://www.yell.ru/eng/).
Enjoy
--
Voyager
(Remove the mystery meat to reply!)
"Eddy le Couvreur" <eddy...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:vjauu1c...@corp.supernews.com...
Øystein
> This is an excellent post.
>
> I drank the water at the Shearton(Now a Malta hotel) and did not get
> sick. Must have been own water supply.
Never ever drink the water in St. Petersburg if you don't know for a
fact that it is ok. That you didn't get sick is not a proof of that
the water was safe to drink.
Please improve your quoting practice. All follow up is ment to be
placed under the text you give your comments on. Secondly never quote
text that isn't relevant for your comments.
Øystein
Ulf Kutzner
> Stay away from all branches of police officers and always carry your
> passport and visum on you.
Visa is now a sticker in the passport. However, inside St. Pete, I would
leave the passport at the hotel and carry my hotel gues card instead.
Worked out in a police control in Moscow dring Soviet times.
Regards, ULF
gerald
known of the problems, I would have taken every precaution.
On 11 Aug 2003 08:57:49 -0700, oys...@nettkjenning.com (Øystein)
wrote:
Øystein
> Øystein schrieb:
Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
experience if you are unlucky. Exept from this day, I was only stopped
once all together the whole week). In addition to the passport with
the visum-sticker inside there are some small aditional papers also
included when you apply for a visum you should carry on you. If you
don't have your original papers on you, you can certainly not expect
them to be happy with seing your guest card or wait while you pick up
the originals at your room. Both Russian contacts, Lonely Planet and
The Rough Guide to Russia and experienced travellers have warned me
that you can get yourself into a position where they making troubles
for you and youh ave to pay them in order for them to let you go.
In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
or so during a compleate different regime.
Øystein
Ulf Kutzner
> > > Stay away from all branches of police officers and always carry your
> > > passport and visum on you.
> >
> > Visa is now a sticker in the passport. However, inside St. Pete, I would
> > leave the passport at the hotel and carry my hotel gues card instead.
> > Worked out in a police control in Moscow dring Soviet times.
>
> Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> experience if you are unlucky. Exept from this day, I was only stopped
> once all together the whole week).
You forgot to tell about one event to be held in spring 2003 in St.
Pete.
> In addition to the passport with
> the visum-sticker inside there are some small aditional papers also
> included when you apply for a visum you should carry on you.
When I apply for a visa? Which small papers?
> If you
> don't have your original papers on you, you can certainly not expect
> them to be happy with seing your guest card or wait while you pick up
> the originals at your room. Both Russian contacts, Lonely Planet and
> The Rough Guide to Russia and experienced travellers have warned me
> that you can get yourself into a position where they making troubles
> for you and youh ave to pay them in order for them to let you go.
Everything is possible.
> In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
> misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
> or so during a compleate different regime.
So, which one is harder? The Soviet or the actual one?
Ulf Kutzner
Øystein
> I do not post under. I agree about not dirnking the water. Had I
> known of the problems, I would have taken every precaution.
Everybody is supposed to quote in accordance with the rules and
standards for usenet.
Please learn and follow theese rules and standards:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Øystein
Frank F. Matthews
In any case it makes far more sense to put entries at the top. It
avoids the necessity of scrolling thru the past messages unless they are
needed. FFM
> Řystein
Miguel Cruz
> In any case it makes far more sense to put entries at the top. It
> avoids the necessity of scrolling thru the past messages unless they are
> needed.
It makes the most sense for everyone to use threaded newsreaders, trim
quotes aggressively, and post at the bottom.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Padraig Breathnach
>Frank F. Matthews <frankfm...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>> In any case it makes far more sense to put entries at the top. It
>> avoids the necessity of scrolling thru the past messages unless they are
>> needed.
>
>It makes the most sense for everyone to use threaded newsreaders, trim
>quotes aggressively, and post at the bottom.
>
There is some benefit to be derived from top-posting: it tells me
something about the poster, and it helps me decide how much weight to
give to the content.
PB
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
"Frank F. Matthews" wrote:
>
> Rules! You want rules???
>
> In any case it makes far more sense to put entries at the top. It
> avoids the necessity of scrolling thru the past messages unless they are
> needed. FFM
Actually, most suggestions for proper "netiquette" DO suggest posting
below the one you are answering. (But you needn't leave the whole prior
post intact - just keep the comments to which you are replying, and
erase the rest.)
Edward Strauss
> Øystein
Hmm... When I was there in the spring of 1992 the city seemed more
relaxed than what you describe. The Hotel kept my papers and passport
while I stayed there. The visa then consisted of seperate papers with
your picture on it which you folded and kept with your passport. I had
a habit of picking up a small bottle of vodka when I went out, Siberian
was the best, and well, everything just seemed to work out...
Keith Willshaw
"Edward Strauss" <es...@Virginia.EDU> wrote in message
news:bhculh$gq0$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
>
>
> Hmm... When I was there in the spring of 1992 the city seemed more
> relaxed than what you describe. The Hotel kept my papers and passport
> while I stayed there. The visa then consisted of seperate papers with
> your picture on it which you folded and kept with your passport. I had
> a habit of picking up a small bottle of vodka when I went out, Siberian
> was the best, and well, everything just seemed to work out...
Indeed when I was last there the hotel specifically advised that
we NOT carry passports and visa around and leave them in the
hotel safe because of the problem of pickpockets. They did however
make a photocopy of the passport and suggested we carry that
along with the hotel guest card. It worked on the one occasion
we were stopped by the militia while walking back to the hotel
one night.
Keith
Øystein
> Øystein schrieb:
> > In addition to the passport with
> > the visum-sticker inside there are some small aditional papers also
> > included when you apply for a visum you should carry on you.
>
> When I apply for a visa? Which small papers?
http://www.visatorussia.com/russianvisa.nsf/visa_requirements.html
As refered to on the visa requirments on this site you also should
bring a
If Individual Travel: Confirmation of hotel arrangements from
authorized Russian travel company, or directly from the Russian hotel,
showing reference number and confirmation number for the visa.
I was acually asked for this 'visa-apendix' by Russian officials
during my stay.
> > If you
> > don't have your original papers on you, you can certainly not expect
> > them to be happy with seing your guest card or wait while you pick up
> > the originals at your room. Both Russian contacts, Lonely Planet and
> > The Rough Guide to Russia and experienced travellers have warned me
> > that you can get yourself into a position where they making troubles
> > for you and youh ave to pay them in order for them to let you go.
> Everything is possible.
It is no secret that some Russian police officers from time to time
accept money as a way to solve formal problems in order to 'raise'
their rather poor salaries. Always having your papers on you, in such
a way that they don't get stolen is a very simple and sensible
precaution.
> > In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
> > misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
> > or so during a compleate different regime.
>
> So, which one is harder? The Soviet or the actual one?
First, the point is that today the best practice is to always keep
your papers on you (and leave photocopies on the hotelroom and at home
before you go to Russia).
Second, I am not an expert at all on theese aspects of Soviet times,
but it is fair to believe that the 'foot-soilders' fear of making
troubles for the wrong person (meaning: someone with powerful
contacts) and the consequences of such a mistake was greater during
Soviet times, than nowadays (then agian: what is Soviet times? It is
fair to say that Stalin and Gorbie are compleately different leagues
;-)
Øystein
Vera Izrailit
> This is an excellent post.
> I drank the water at the Shearton(Now a Malta hotel) and did not get
> sick. Must have been own water supply.
Not necessarily. Quite a lot of people are naturally immune. I have
drunk tap water in many places in St. Petersburg and never got sick.
Not to mention that 5 million St. Petersburgians drink their own
tap water. :)
--
Vera Izrailit
Deep Floyd Mars
news:ul7ijvkis2bc04vsl...@4ax.com...
I'm not bothered at all about top posting. It means you don't have to scroll
down to read the message. If someone has begun top posting, I am happy to
continue. What is it that bothers people about it anyway?
---
DFM
Keith Willshaw
"Vera Izrailit" <izra...@cc.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in message
news:bhd9cb$p7q$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
But most of them boil it first to make tea.
It was a local (of Leningrad as it then was) who
first told me in the mid 70's not to drink the water.
The official line in Soviet days was 'Of course its
safe to drink the water'
As for locals being used to it its recognised by the local
health authorities as amajor risk. Studies of children in
day care centres showed that as many as 35% showed
signs if giardisis.
Keith
me
> Rules! You want rules???
>
> In any case it makes far more sense to put entries at the top.
No, it doesn't.
> It
> avoids the necessity of scrolling thru the past messages unless they are
> needed. FFM
[snip]
And if they are, top posters screw it all up. The reason for
"interlacing" responses is because subsequent responses will
keep everything in order. Top posters, even when then only make
short, universal, comments, screw up the order for others who may
make subsequent comments which require interlacing. Bottom
posting maintains the proper order and allows interlacing, when
appropriate, by subsequent authors.
The solution to the "necessity of scrolling thru..." is
proper editing of quoted material to avoid the need to
scroll at all.
Miguel Cruz
> I'm not bothered at all about top posting. It means you don't have to
> scroll down to read the message. If someone has begun top posting, I am
> happy to continue. What is it that bothers people about it anyway?
Mainly that it reverses the order of the conversation. Normally one person
says something, then someone else responds, and so on. When it reads in that
order it's natural and easy to follow.
Also, bottom-posting is more amenable to interleaving responses with quoted
text in long messages, which is essential for efficient readability in
exchanges of more than a few paragaphs.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Miguel Cruz wrote:
>
> Deep Floyd Mars <deepfl...@yDONTaBEhSHYoNOWo.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm not bothered at all about top posting. It means you don't have to
> > scroll down to read the message. If someone has begun top posting, I am
> > happy to continue. What is it that bothers people about it anyway?
>
> Mainly that it reverses the order of the conversation. Normally one person
> says something, then someone else responds, and so on. When it reads in that
> order it's natural and easy to follow.
>
> Also, bottom-posting is more amenable to interleaving responses with quoted
> text in long messages, which is essential for efficient readability in
> exchanges of more than a few paragaphs.
Of course, the most annoying of all are those posts which do not bother
to quote ANY of the message they are answering! (Since one's reply may
show up several posts past the one to which one is replying, it can also
be confusing to other readers - especially when the reply is a simple
one-liner beginning with "you", containing no clues whatever as to which
post is receiving the reply.)
Miguel Cruz
> Of course, the most annoying of all are those posts which do not bother
> to quote ANY of the message they are answering! (Since one's reply may
> show up several posts past the one to which one is replying, it can also
> be confusing to other readers - especially when the reply is a simple
> one-liner beginning with "you", containing no clues whatever as to which
> post is receiving the reply.)
Definitely look into getting a threaded newsreader. That way all replies are
always shown with the specific message that they are in response to, rather
than just in date order (which gets really confusing when there are a lot of
active subthreads).
When I go into a thread I see a "tree" of branches all heading off from the
original posting in a thread. If I just keep hitting the space bar it goes
down one branch at a time, so I see each conversation within the thread
interleaved properly, in the order that it happened. Then it continues
through the other branches until all new messages in the thread have been
shown. Or, if I want to, I can hop over to other subthreads (or
sub-sub-threads or whatever) by clicking on them in the tree at the top of
the screen.
At any point I can always see the message that the poster was viewing when
they hit "reply", just by hitting the left-arrow. So even if they didn't
quote anything, context is just a keypress away.
Hatunen
wrote:
Many of us set the software to hide the article after it's been
read, or to even delete it. That way we don't have to deal with
humungously long lists and we don't take up a lot of disk space
storing old posts. It's quite a headache for me to try to
retrieve a previous post just so I can see what the poster is
talking about.
You seem to be arguing that one should post for one's own
convenience and to hell with the reader.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Miguel Cruz
> m...@admin.u.nu (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> At any point I can always see the message that the poster was viewing when
>> they hit "reply", just by hitting the left-arrow. So even if they didn't
>> quote anything, context is just a keypress away.
>
> Many of us set the software to hide the article after it's been read, or
> to even delete it. That way we don't have to deal with humungously long
> lists and we don't take up a lot of disk space storing old posts. It's
> quite a headache for me to try to retrieve a previous post just so I can
> see what the poster is talking about.
I may not have explained myself thoroughly enough.
After I've read a message I'll never see it again unless I ask for it.
However, I can ask for it with a single keystroke if I so desire. Pressing
that button is not a headache at all. It doesn't take any disk space because
it's fetched from the server at that point (which is instantaneous). Of
course this would not work for offline reading but I think that's becoming
quite rare.
> You seem to be arguing that one should post for one's own convenience and
> to hell with the reader.
Really I'm arguing that if everyone used appropriate tools then convenience,
power, and utility would be optimal across the board. I would argue against
going out of the way to accommodate bad tools. Just like I don't think roads
should be made of rubber because some people have flat tires.
Hatunen
wrote:
>Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>> m...@admin.u.nu (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>>> At any point I can always see the message that the poster was viewing when
>>> they hit "reply", just by hitting the left-arrow. So even if they didn't
>>> quote anything, context is just a keypress away.
>>
>> Many of us set the software to hide the article after it's been read, or
>> to even delete it. That way we don't have to deal with humungously long
>> lists and we don't take up a lot of disk space storing old posts. It's
>> quite a headache for me to try to retrieve a previous post just so I can
>> see what the poster is talking about.
>
>I may not have explained myself thoroughly enough.
>
>After I've read a message I'll never see it again unless I ask for it.
>However, I can ask for it with a single keystroke if I so desire. Pressing
>that button is not a headache at all. It doesn't take any disk space because
>it's fetched from the server at that point (which is instantaneous). Of
>course this would not work for offline reading but I think that's becoming
>quite rare.
That, of course, depends on the newsreading software. This was an
easy matter when I used a unix command line newsreader (trn)
where I had direct access to my provider's news spool. But now I
must download the messages, and once marked they are gone; so far
I have not been able to figure out how Agent can help me do what
you can do. And now all those messages are no longer on my
system.
>> You seem to be arguing that one should post for one's own convenience and
>> to hell with the reader.
>
>Really I'm arguing that if everyone used appropriate tools then convenience,
>power, and utility would be optimal across the board. I would argue against
>going out of the way to accommodate bad tools. Just like I don't think roads
>should be made of rubber because some people have flat tires.
Nevertheless, failing to retain at least the brief parts of
previous messages that make it clear what the subject matter is
would seem to me to be a bit rude to those of us who cannot
easily access the previous messages. Furthermore, even if the
previous message can be accessed fairly simply, it may be
necessary to read a lot of material before figuring out what's
going on.
Øystein
> > Ulf Kutzner <kutz...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote in message news:<3F37ED9B...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de>...
> > > Øystein schrieb:
> > >
> > > > Stay away from all branches of police officers and always carry your
> > > > passport and visum on you.
> > >
> > > Visa is now a sticker in the passport. However, inside St. Pete, I would
> > > leave the passport at the hotel and carry my hotel gues card instead.
> > > Worked out in a police control in Moscow dring Soviet times.
>
> > Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> > streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> > representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> > experience if you are unlucky.
> Hmm... When I was there in the spring of 1992 the city seemed more
> relaxed than what you describe. The Hotel kept my papers and passport
> while I stayed there. The visa then consisted of seperate papers with
> your picture on it which you folded and kept with your passport. I had
> a habit of picking up a small bottle of vodka when I went out, Siberian
> was the best, and well, everything just seemed to work out...
When I told a Russian contact of mine that lives in St. Petersburg
about my experiences, he explained to me that this branch of patrools
were established after the terrorist acts in Moscow 1999 and the start
of the second Chechen
war. Their role is to check documents of terrorist looking blokes, but
that there is signs that they might not only fighting with terrorists,
but trying to get money from fines if a foreigners not have proper
documents.
If this is true it makes sense that you had a different experience
back in 92 and that the other poster that were telling about his
experiences back in 'soviet times'. If this is true it also seems like
'the war against terrorism' has somewhat similar negative bi-effects
both in Russia and the US.
Øystein
Øystein
> Indeed when I was last there the hotel specifically advised that
> we NOT carry passports and visa around and leave them in the
> hotel safe because of the problem of pickpockets.
When was that (see my pro vs post 1999 posting in this thread) ?
It is always a good idea to put passport, visum and credit cards in a
'pickpoctets safe place' for instance carried around your neck or
around your leg. It is also a good idea to take photocopies of your
passport and visa. After advise from Lonely Planet for Russa, I kept a
copy with my Family in Norway, and a copy at my hotel.
> They did however
> make a photocopy of the passport and suggested we carry that
> along with the hotel guest card. It worked on the one occasion
> we were stopped by the militia while walking back to the hotel
> one night.
Rules and practices could have changed. On some occations I have read
that the Russian Embassy take a photocopy of your passport when you
apply for visum, but in fact they insisted on keeping the original
passport.
Does anybody have info about if there has been such changes in the
rules?
Øystein
Miguel Cruz
> m...@admin.u.nu (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> After I've read a message I'll never see it again unless I ask for it.
>> However, I can ask for it with a single keystroke if I so desire.
>> Pressing that button is not a headache at all. It doesn't take any disk
>> space because it's fetched from the server at that point (which is
>> instantaneous). Of course this would not work for offline reading but I
>> think that's becoming quite rare.
>
> That, of course, depends on the newsreading software. This was an easy
> matter when I used a unix command line newsreader (trn) where I had direct
> access to my provider's news spool. But now I must download the messages
Actually, I'm using trn and accessing messages via NNTP just like Agent does
- no need to have a local spool. It just provides a more useful interface
for navigating threads.
>> Really I'm arguing that if everyone used appropriate tools then
>> convenience, power, and utility would be optimal across the board. I
>> would argue against going out of the way to accommodate bad tools. Just
>> like I don't think roads should be made of rubber because some people
>> have flat tires.
>
> Nevertheless, failing to retain at least the brief parts of previous
> messages that make it clear what the subject matter is would seem to me to
> be a bit rude to those of us who cannot easily access the previous
> messages.
Quite true. That's why, despite my abstract argument, I continue to quote in
follow-ups.
> Furthermore, even if the previous message can be accessed fairly simply,
> it may be necessary to read a lot of material before figuring out what's
> going on.
Also true. And I'd have to admit that with complicated discussions, it
remains the case no matter how helpful someone's news client is.
Go Fig
Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> I have not been able to figure out how Agent can help me do what
> you can do. And now all those messages are no longer on my
> system.
Can you mark the group as 'unread?'
I currently have 71960 RTE post on my news server.
jay
Wed, Aug 13, 2003
mailto:go...@mac.com
--
Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
Frank F. Matthews
The oldest post shows as 8/10 with only 2 prior to 8/12. For some
reason a few posts hang around longer than most. Try to access some of
the 2-3 month old ones and see if they are really available.
FFM
Andrey Frizyuk
Never drink tap water in Russia without boiling! You run a major risk
for your health by doing so. Most Russians also use water filters to
make their water safer. This is especially important if you are
staying at big cities without adequate supply of naturally flowing
water, i.e. Moscow or St Pete.
With best wishes, Andrei
Vera Izrailit
> But most of them boil it first to make tea.
Most of them also drink it straight from the tap. Unless,
of course, things have changed a lot in the last 15 years,
which is also possible.
> It was a local (of Leningrad as it then was) who
> first told me in the mid 70's not to drink the water.
He probably knew that the water was dangerous for
foreigners.
> The official line in Soviet days was 'Of course its
> safe to drink the water'
Of course. :)
> As for locals being used to it its recognised by the local
> health authorities as amajor risk. Studies of children in
> day care centres showed that as many as 35% showed
> signs if giardisis.
Have you seen what those children eat in those daycare centers?
--
Vera Izrailit
Vera Izrailit
> Never drink tap water in Russia without boiling! You run a major risk
> for your health by doing so.
I've done it every day for 16 years without any visible ill effects,
and I am not planning to go there ever again, so your advice is a bit
late, but thanks anyway. ;)
> Most Russians also use water filters to
> make their water safer.
That's good. They did not use to.
> This is especially important if you are
> staying at big cities without adequate supply of naturally flowing
> water, i.e. Moscow or St Pete.
Has the water supply in Moscow/St. Pete really become worse in the
last 15 years?
--
Vera Izrailit
Miguel Cruz
> You may think that you have 71960 but few servers will save that much.
> The oldest post shows as 8/10 with only 2 prior to 8/12. For some
> reason a few posts hang around longer than most. Try to access some of
> the 2-3 month old ones and see if they are really available.
It completely depends on the news service you're using. Verizon has middling
retention - there are currently 10798 messages in rec.travel.europe and the
oldest is this one:
From: erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Subject: Re: Germany
Message-ID: <erilarloFRY-F02D...@news.airstreamcomm.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:31:23 -0500
It's entirely likely that Jay actually has 70K articles available if he's
using one of the a la carte commercial news services.
Go Fig
m...@admin.u.nu (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
I'm now using 'Giga-news', as my ISP offers this as part of the monthly.
While it is a bit slower than my old ATT news server, they do retain 6
months of text based groups.
This is the oldest post on my server:
> Subject: Re: Why...
> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:56:58 +0200
> Organization: _n/a_
> Lines: 23
> Message-ID: <avqmki$51g$1...@plaza.suomi.net>
> References: <69i02vs9ebn2eopbo...@127.0.0.1>
> <82f12v87fqtreukad...@4ax.com> <avqhc3$84k$0...@pita.alt.net>
> Reply-To: "Ville Ylipekkala" <pun...@SPAMSUCKSmbnet.fi>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: profeetta.jbd.iki.fi
> X-Trace: plaza.suomi.net 1042341330 5168 212.50.131.29 (12 Jan 2003 03:15:30
> GMT)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:15:30 +0000 (UTC)
jay
Thu, Aug 14, 2003
Ulf Kutzner
> Rules and practices could have changed. On some occations I have read
> that the Russian Embassy take a photocopy of your passport when you
> apply for visum, but in fact they insisted on keeping the original
> passport.
>
> Does anybody have info about if there has been such changes in the
> rules?
Yes, positive. The visa is now a sticker for your passport, not just an
extra sheet of paper.
Ulf Kutzner
Øystein
That is VERY old news. What i asked about is if there are have been
changes in the official rules when it comes to leave the origianl
pasport instead of a photocopy of your passport when you apply for
visum.
Øystein
Bjorn Olsson
They need to have your passport in order to stick the sticker in it. I
don't quite remember what they required in the pre-sticker days.
Possibly it was just a photocopy, but that's now history anyways.
Bjorn
Bjorn Olsson
> > Øystein schrieb:
> >
> > > Stay away from all branches of police officers and always carry your
> > > passport and visum on you.
> >
> > Visa is now a sticker in the passport. However, inside St. Pete, I would
> > leave the passport at the hotel and carry my hotel gues card instead.
> > Worked out in a police control in Moscow dring Soviet times.
>
> Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> experience if you are unlucky.
Must have been very unlucky. I've been to Russia more than 10 times,
visiting various cities, and have never ever been stopped by militsia.
> Exept from this day, I was only stopped
> once all together the whole week). In addition to the passport with
> the visum-sticker inside there are some small aditional papers also
> included when you apply for a visum you should carry on you. If you
> don't have your original papers on you, you can certainly not expect
> them to be happy with seing your guest card or wait while you pick up
> the originals at your room. Both Russian contacts, Lonely Planet and
> The Rough Guide to Russia and experienced travellers have warned me
> that you can get yourself into a position where they making troubles
> for you and youh ave to pay them in order for them to let you go.
>
> In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
> misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
> or so during a compleate different regime.
Well, mileage varies. My wife, who is native russian, always tells me
its better I leave the passport in a drawer in the apartment, not to
lose it anywhere. I just carry a photocopy with me when on the
streets.
Bjorn
Øystein
> oys...@nettkjenning.com (Řystein) wrote in message news:<af795b07.03081...@posting.google.com>...
> > Ulf Kutzner <kutz...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote in message news:<3F37ED9B...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de>...
> >
> > Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> > streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> > representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> > experience if you are unlucky.
>
> Must have been very unlucky. I've been to Russia more than 10 times,
> visiting various cities, and have never ever been stopped by militsia.
I was _a_little_ unlucky. Precautions is mostly arrangements in case
you get a little or very unlucky, not in case you don't get unlucky.
When? Where? Those patrools were established after the terrorist acts
in Moscow at 1999 and after start of the second Chechen war. Theese
patrools also focus on Moscow and St. Petersburg where the likelyhood
of terrorist actions is by far most likely to occur.
> > In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
> > misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
> > or so during a compleate different regime.
>
> Well, mileage varies. My wife, who is native russian, always tells me
> its better I leave the passport in a drawer in the apartment, not to
> lose it anywhere. I just carry a photocopy with me when on the
> streets.
If you are a tourist staying at a hotel you should never ever leave
valuables at the hotel room, in Russia or anywhere else. That could of
course be a very good idea if you live a private apartment. Second a
native Russian will probably not experience the same problem, because
some of theese officers actually hunt 'rich foreigners' that they can
take money from in order to let them walk, if they catch them without
their papers. Therefore the staff at my hotel in St. Petersburg, an
English businessman running a business in St. Petersburg and a native
Russian living in St. Petersburg I have contact with all gave me the
advice to always carry my original papers on me, as a precautian
against problems with corruption.
Řystein
Bjorn Olsson
> > > Ulf Kutzner <kutz...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote in message news:<3F37ED9B...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de>...
> > >
> > > Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> > > streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> > > representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> > > experience if you are unlucky.
> >
> > Must have been very unlucky. I've been to Russia more than 10 times,
> > visiting various cities, and have never ever been stopped by militsia.
>
> I was _a_little_ unlucky. Precautions is mostly arrangements in case
> you get a little or very unlucky, not in case you don't get unlucky.
>
> When? Where? Those patrools were established after the terrorist acts
> in Moscow at 1999 and after start of the second Chechen war. Theese
> patrools also focus on Moscow and St. Petersburg where the likelyhood
> of terrorist actions is by far most likely to occur.
I keep hearing about these patrols in the news. But despite almost all
my trips to Russia occurring after 1999 (the first was in autumn of
'98) I have honestly not seen any sign of this "heightened security"
or, as I said, been stopped by militsia a single time. You may of
course argue, if you wish, that I have been extremely lucky. I can't
know, I can only tell you what I have and haven't seen.
> > > In fact it is rather inresponible of you give unexpreienced travellers
> > > misleading advices on the basis of what you experienced 15 years ago
> > > or so during a compleate different regime.
> >
> > Well, mileage varies. My wife, who is native russian, always tells me
> > its better I leave the passport in a drawer in the apartment, not to
> > lose it anywhere. I just carry a photocopy with me when on the
> > streets.
>
> If you are a tourist staying at a hotel you should never ever leave
> valuables at the hotel room, in Russia or anywhere else.
Of course. I'm under the impression that hotels have safety boxes.
> That could of
> course be a very good idea if you live a private apartment. Second a
> native Russian will probably not experience the same problem, because
> some of theese officers actually hunt 'rich foreigners' that they can
> take money from in order to let them walk, if they catch them without
> their papers.
Well, I never carry much cash either, so they wouldn't find much to
take.
> Therefore the staff at my hotel in St. Petersburg, an
> English businessman running a business in St. Petersburg and a native
> Russian living in St. Petersburg I have contact with all gave me the
> advice to always carry my original papers on me, as a precautian
> against problems with corruption.
Well, experiences differ. I've never received such advice, despite
meeting so many native russians, foreigners living there, and a few
hotel staff.
I do remember, however, a friendly lady on the Moscow subway who saw
that I carried (by mistake) my wallet in the back pocket of my jeans,
and adviced my to keep it somewhere safer. That, I must agree, was
very good advice.
Bjorn
Al
Petersburg and Moscow. We were never stopped and asked for any papers. I
feel sure everyone knew we were Americans. Passport was always left with
the hotel front desk. Had a copy of pages from passport but wasn't needed.
Another thing which may have changed. Leaving Moscow, customs was a breeze.
They now have "Nothing to declare lines". We just walked through without
any questions. Only had to show passport and have exit card removed. No
problems with digital camera, camcorder, or cell phone.
The only complaint I have about visiting Russia is the cost to take taxis
to airport. Next time I will arrange in advance.
Øystein
> > bjo...@ida.his.se (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<42e37e54.03081...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > Ulf Kutzner <kutz...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote in message news:<3F37ED9B...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de>...
> > > >
> > > > Not good enough. Spring 2003 I was stopped 3 times in one day on the
> > > > streets in St. Petersburg by the Militsia. (3 times in one day is not
> > > > representative for what you normally should expect, but what you can
> > > > experience if you are unlucky.
> > >
> > > Must have been very unlucky. I've been to Russia more than 10 times,
> > > visiting various cities, and have never ever been stopped by militsia.
> >
> > I was _a_little_ unlucky. Precautions is mostly arrangements in case
> > you get a little or very unlucky, not in case you don't get unlucky.
> >
> > When? Where? Those patrools were established after the terrorist acts
> > in Moscow at 1999 and after start of the second Chechen war. Theese
> > patrools also focus on Moscow and St. Petersburg where the likelyhood
> > of terrorist actions is by far most likely to occur.
>
> I keep hearing about these patrols in the news. But despite almost all
> my trips to Russia occurring after 1999 (the first was in autumn of
> '98) I have honestly not seen any sign of this "heightened security"
> or, as I said, been stopped by militsia a single time. You may of
> course argue, if you wish, that I have been extremely lucky. I can't
> know, I can only tell you what I have and haven't seen.
Sure, I can hardly argue on that. My point is that they do exsist and
that because they do always carry your passport and visa on you is a
sensible precaution. If you carry them in a case around your leg or
something they are pretty safe for pick pockets. Besides that and the
patrols we are discussing, St. petersburg is a pretty safe city in my
experience.
> > If you are a tourist staying at a hotel you should never ever leave
> > valuables at the hotel room, in Russia or anywhere else.
>
> Of course. I'm under the impression that hotels have safety boxes.
They have, but they often takes a lot of money to deposit your
valuables. That your passport and visa is very safe at the hotel isn't
of much use, if the petrols insist ofnseeing your original papers
either.
> > That could of
> > course be a very good idea if you live a private apartment. Second a
> > native Russian will probably not experience the same problem, because
> > some of theese officers actually hunt 'rich foreigners' that they can
> > take money from in order to let them walk, if they catch them without
> > their papers.
>
> Well, I never carry much cash either, so they wouldn't find much to
> take.
Well, the problem is more like that right amount of cash is what it
takes for them to let you go, if you first have ended up in trouble.
> > Therefore the staff at my hotel in St. Petersburg, an
> > English businessman running a business in St. Petersburg and a native
> > Russian living in St. Petersburg I have contact with all gave me the
> > advice to always carry my original papers on me, as a precautian
> > against problems with corruption.
>
> Well, experiences differ. I've never received such advice, despite
> meeting so many native russians, foreigners living there, and a few
> hotel staff.
If I hadn't metioned the patrols-incidents I wouldn't received this
advices either. I have never experienced any
pay-in-order-for-them-to-let-me-go incidents either, but I don't find
it hard to believe that what I have been told is true.
> I do remember, however, a friendly lady on the Moscow subway who saw
> that I carried (by mistake) my wallet in the back pocket of my jeans,
> and adviced my to keep it somewhere safer. That, I must agree, was
> very good advice.
Totally agree. Personally I use a small case around my leg for credit
card, passport and visa and cash in my front pocket. Especially on the
very crowded metro stations in St Petersburg and Moscow it is
important with pick pockets precautions ;-).
Řystein
Øystein
> We want to spend 5 days in St Petersburg (Russia) this autumn. We always
> arrange our trips ourselves. The flights seem easy to arrange, but we're not
> sure yet about where to stay. We get different reports about Sovetskaya,
> Moskva and Oktiabrskaya hotels. Some say they're grim and dirty others say
> they've cleaned up their act. What should we believe? Are there other
> mid-range alternatives (max $100/night/room).
Perhaps you find something interesteing at my St. Petersburg site on
http://www.thorsnas.com/ferie2003.htm
Øystein
Greg Moore
them.
I will be in St.Petersburg next week on a cruise. We have Russian visas and
will be doing much of our touring on our own.
Do you know if the souvenir market behind the Church on Spilled Blood is
open in the evenings, after 19:00?
Thank you,
Lorrie
"Øystein" <oys...@nettkjenning.com> wrote in message
news:af795b07.03082...@posting.google.com...
Bjorn Olsson
If luggage is not to heavy, there are also minibuses (vans) that cost
next to nothing (less than $1 to go from Sheremetyevo to nearest metro
stop).
Bjorn
Bjorn Olsson
> > > bjo...@ida.his.se (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<42e37e54.03081...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > Ulf Kutzner <kutz...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de> wrote in message news:<3F37ED9B...@mail.zdv.uni-mainz.de>...
I don't quite understand. If they were to demand more cash than I'm
carrying in my pockets, how the heck would they be able to get it from
me?
Bjorn
Øystein
> Thank you for your pictures and information on St.Petersburg. I enjoyed
> them.
>
> I will be in St.Petersburg next week on a cruise. We have Russian visas and
> will be doing much of our touring on our own.
> Do you know if the souvenir market behind the Church on Spilled Blood is
> open in the evenings, after 19:00?
It is probably only open during the daytime. Lonely Planet perhaps
have more details on this and other events and openinghours.
Øystein
Øystein
You are absouletly right in suggesting that you don't quite
understand.
Corruption among Russian officials is a very real, relevant and
unpleasant problem. I am not an expert on Russian how they would
handle this, but you can bet it will not be a very pleasant
experience...
Øystein
Bjorn Olsson
I keep hearing people say so. However, as I already stated in an
earlier post, I have been to Russia more than 10 times over the last 5
years. I've sometimes spent up to a month there at the time, so the
total time I've spent in Russia amounts to somewhere around half a
year. Despite this extensive time spent in the country, I have not on
a single occasion met with any instance whatsoever of this form of
corruption, or anything even similar to it.
Bjorn
Øystein
> >
> > You are absouletly right in suggesting that you don't quite
> > understand.
> >
> > Corruption among Russian officials is a very real, relevant and
> > unpleasant problem.
>
> I keep hearing people say so. However, as I already stated in an
> earlier post, I have been to Russia more than 10 times over the last 5
> years. I've sometimes spent up to a month there at the time, so the
> total time I've spent in Russia amounts to somewhere around half a
> year. Despite this extensive time spent in the country, I have not on
> a single occasion met with any instance whatsoever of this form of
> corruption, or anything even similar to it.
I haven't either - still I take for granted that it DO exsist and take
my precautions - the same you should do!
Řystein
Bjorn Olsson
>
> > >
> > > You are absouletly right in suggesting that you don't quite
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > Corruption among Russian officials is a very real, relevant and
> > > unpleasant problem.
> >
> > I keep hearing people say so. However, as I already stated in an
> > earlier post, I have been to Russia more than 10 times over the last 5
> > years. I've sometimes spent up to a month there at the time, so the
> > total time I've spent in Russia amounts to somewhere around half a
> > year. Despite this extensive time spent in the country, I have not on
> > a single occasion met with any instance whatsoever of this form of
> > corruption, or anything even similar to it.
>
> I haven't either - still I take for granted that it DO exsist and take
> my precautions - the same you should do!
Could you be more specific as to exactly what trouble I would get in
if being stopped and not carrying my passport? The militsia would beat
me up, lock me up in jail, send me to military service in Chechnya, or
what?
Bjorn
Øystein
> > I haven't either - still I take for granted that it DO exsist and take
> > my precautions - the same you should do!
>
> Could you be more specific as to exactly what trouble I would get in
> if being stopped and not carrying my passport? The militsia would beat
> me up, lock me up in jail, send me to military service in Chechnya, or
> what?
Bjorn please, this discussion is so boring! Why don't you grow up and
make your own experiences?
Řystein
Bjorn Olsson
>
> > > I haven't either - still I take for granted that it DO exsist and take
> > > my precautions - the same you should do!
> >
> > Could you be more specific as to exactly what trouble I would get in
> > if being stopped and not carrying my passport? The militsia would beat
> > me up, lock me up in jail, send me to military service in Chechnya, or
> > what?
>
> Bjorn please, this discussion is so boring! Why don't you grow up and
> make your own experiences?
I did make my own experiences, from which I conclude that it's
extremely rare to get stopped by militsia and that nothing usually
happens if you do get stopped. And I conclude from your reply that
you're unable to specify the nature of the "trouble" that you insist
that a tourist would get into in the situation you're warning against.
Bjorn