Secrets of Siena?
WL
I usually don't like posting "requests" like this, but have no alternative
this time - so forgive me. We're going to Florence in 10 days time, and
thought we would take a day trip to Siena (only 1.30 hours by train) -
somewhere I've never been, having been to Italy 6 times now.
I was wondering if anyone could give us some tips or secrets as to the best
places to go in Siena. Personally, I just like walking around towns and
cities if I'm only going for a day, just to get the feel and atmosphere of
the place - and that's usually enough to tempt me back (assuming it grabs
me). But if there are any "must see" places, I'd love to hear about them.
Thanks,
Will
London, UK.
--
GPRS Forums:
http://GPRSCommunity.com
hamilton
<ne...@gprscommunity.com> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I usually don't like posting "requests" like this, but have no alternative
> this time - so forgive me. We're going to Florence in 10 days time, and
> thought we would take a day trip to Siena (only 1.30 hours by train) -
> somewhere I've never been, having been to Italy 6 times now.
first of all -- don't go by train -- go by bus -- it is quicker and the
bus drops you right off by the old city -- not a couple of miles away.
This is one destination where the bus is much better than the train. You
pick it up near the train station and Santa Maria Novella -- there is a
big bus station there.
>
> I was wondering if anyone could give us some tips or secrets as to the best
> places to go in Siena. Personally, I just like walking around towns and
> cities if I'm only going for a day, just to get the feel and atmosphere of
> the place - and that's usually enough to tempt me back (assuming it grabs
> me). But if there are any "must see" places, I'd love to hear about them.
Siena is a 'being there' place -- just stroll through the various contrada
noting their totem fountains and the contrada symbols worked into
buildings in their area. If you are lucky there will be some contrada
related ceremony going on in town -- we have stumbled on a pilgrimage in
costume to St. Katherine, to the selection of the horses for the palio,
and observed young men practicing in courtyards for handling the flags etc
in festivals.
The Cathedral is wonderful -- worth a good bit of time. The town hall has
a wonderful mural of 'good and bad' government. The climb to the top of
the bell tower in the center of town is pretty cool and the view is
fabulous.
My happiest memory of Siena -- experienced twice at different trips -- was
campari on the Campo at night under a full moon. A very romantic spot.
The contrada pottery mugs and plates make better than average souvenirs --
we have had ours on display in our kitchen for years
paulfr...@attbi.com
the old town than by rail. The bus stop is 1 block from the main train
station in Florence.
The Cathedral, of course, but mostly wander around, walk the old walls, have
a cafe, have some wine, walk some more. Siena is a lovely place. The
loveliest thing to do is enjoy it -- it's not a Museum to monument to
monument type of place at all
Paul
"WL" <ne...@gprscommunity.com> wrote in message
news:ahcmvm$s1ik5$1...@ID-139465.news.dfncis.de...
WL
> You can grab a bus to Siena and get there quicker and end up MUCH
> closer to the old town than by rail. The bus stop is 1 block from the
> main train station in Florence.
Thanks for the reply Paul (and Hamilton too) - good of you to recommend the
bus over the train. I've never actually travelled by Bus in Italy (well,
once) - how much is likely to be? The train takes about an hour and a
half - how long for the bus?
Many thanks
Will
Pan
wrote:
If you're making a day trip to Siena, you have no time for "secrets,"
in my opinion. The "must-sees" are no secret at all, and you could
find them in any guidebook (such as Michelin's Green Guide):
Piazza del Campo
Museum in the Palazzo Publico
Duomo (including the Libreria Piccolomini)
Baptistry (which must be entered separately, below)
Museo Metropolitano (dell'Opera del Duomo)
Pinacoteca
Walk on the Via Banchi di Sopra past the Palazzo Salimbeni and on the
Via di Citta past the Palazzo Chigi (Accademia Chigiana).
I don't think you'll be able to do all of that in a single day trip,
by the way. And if you had more time, there are many additional sights
worth seeing.
Oh, by the way, do NOT take a train from Florence to Siena: Take the
bus, and make sure to take the express one (which is not the
"diretto," but I forget exactly what it says on it - "Via Cassia,"
perhaps, but make sure you check into it and don't count on my memory
from at least 8 years ago!) The bus trip is shorter and lets you off
at San Domenico, from where you can walk easily to all the sights I
mentioned. The train requires a change in Empoli and lets you off some
2 km outside of the city walls, requiring you to take a bus just to
get to a gate.
Michael
To reply by email, please take out the TRASH (so to speak). Personal messages only, please!
Pan
wrote:
[snip]
>>Siena is a 'being there' place -- just stroll through the various contrada
>noting their totem fountains and the contrada symbols worked into
>buildings in their area. If you are lucky there will be some contrada
>related ceremony going on in town -- we have stumbled on a pilgrimage in
>costume to St. Katherine, to the selection of the horses for the palio,
>and observed young men practicing in courtyards for handling the flags etc
>in festivals.
I agree, but if I had one day, I probably wouldn't take too many
leisurely strolls, so as not to miss the most important sights. Others
may differ.
>The Cathedral is wonderful -- worth a good bit of time.
I agree completely.
> The town hall has
>a wonderful mural of 'good and bad' government.
Just to elaborate:
The city hall is the Palazzo Publico, the largest building on the
Piazza del Campo, which includes the famous Torre di Mangia. The room
you're talking about is where the Counsel of Elders that used to run
the city-state of Siena met (Sala dei Nove), and there are three
frescos in the room:
(1) The good government
(2) The results of good government, showing an orderly, prosperous
city and surrounding fruitful countryside, painted with a harmonious
space
(3) The results of bad government (heavily damaged but still
understandable in good part, as of the last time I visited), showing
fighting, chaos, destruction, and demons, with a deliberately
distorted and messed-up space.
To the original poster: When you look at these frescos, which you
should do, look at the way the buildings line up. In the Results of
Good Government, the buildings line up harmoniously and contribute to
a harmonious composition. In the Results of Bad Government, the
buildings present jagged, chaotic, belligerent roofs and facades. That
fresco cycle is one of the greatest Sienese artworks, along with the
Duccio Maesta', which can be seen in the Museo Metropolitano, and a
few other works. If you go to the Museo Metropolitano - which you
should - do not overlook the back of the Maesta', which is arguably
even greater than its front. The back and front are presented
separately in the same room. The Museo Metropolitano is in an
additional, uncompleted nave that was to have been part of the Duomo.
Its entrance is across from the right side of the Duomo, from what I
remember.
> The climb to the top of
>the bell tower in the center of town is pretty cool and the view is
>fabulous.
It is, as is the view from the top of the Museo Metropolitano, but the
bonus at the top of the Torre di Mangia in the Palazzo Publico is that
- unless things have changed since I was last there - you can see the
original Fonte Gaia by de la Quercia. A copy of the great scupture now
functions as the fountain in the Piazza del Campo, and it's a pretty
good copy, but the original is wonderful, even if somewhat damaged.
>My happiest memory of Siena -- experienced twice at different trips -- was
>campari on the Campo at night under a full moon. A very romantic spot.
[snip]
One pays extra to eat or/and drink in the piazza, but it's worth
doing. There are hardly any places in the world with more pleasant
scenery and ambiance (at least in terms of the architecture of human
hands).
Best,
paulfr...@attbi.com
about 1 hour.
Paul
"WL" <ne...@gprscommunity.com> wrote in message
news:ahcr75$s3kg7$1...@ID-139465.news.dfncis.de...
Luca Logi
> I was wondering if anyone could give us some tips or secrets as to the best
> places to go in Siena. Personally, I just like walking around towns and
> cities if I'm only going for a day, just to get the feel and atmosphere of
> the place - and that's usually enough to tempt me back (assuming it grabs
> me). But if there are any "must see" places, I'd love to hear about them.
In front of St. Agostino church there is a very little place selling
cold dishes, made with salumi and cheese coming from the zone around
Siena, to be accompained by a quarter of vine. I recommend it for a meal
(only, don't ask the owner about those wine bottles with the face of
Mussolini on the back).
-- -----------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ll...@dada.it
Pan
>In front of St. Agostino church there is a very little place selling
>cold dishes, made with salumi and cheese coming from the zone around
>Siena, to be accompained by a quarter of vine. I recommend it for a meal
>(only, don't ask the owner about those wine bottles with the face of
>Mussolini on the back).
A Fascist??
hamilton
<ne...@gprscommunity.com> wrote:
> paulfr...@attbi.com <paulfr...@attbi.com> said:
>
> > You can grab a bus to Siena and get there quicker and end up MUCH
> > closer to the old town than by rail. The bus stop is 1 block from the
> > main train station in Florence.
>
> Thanks for the reply Paul (and Hamilton too) - good of you to recommend the
> bus over the train. I've never actually travelled by Bus in Italy (well,
> once) - how much is likely to be? The train takes about an hour and a
> half - how long for the bus?
it has been a while so I don't exactly recall -- but it is about an hour
maybe slightly less
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:44:13 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >>Siena is a 'being there' place -- just stroll through the various contrada
> >noting their totem fountains and the contrada symbols worked into
> >buildings in their area. If you are lucky there will be some contrada
> >related ceremony going on in town -- we have stumbled on a pilgrimage in
> >costume to St. Katherine, to the selection of the horses for the palio,
> >and observed young men practicing in courtyards for handling the flags etc
> >in festivals.
>
> I agree, but if I had one day, I probably wouldn't take too many
> leisurely strolls, so as not to miss the most important sights. Others
> may differ.
actually the best advise would be to spend at least one night there -- a
day trip is squeezing it too tight -- although I would still spend some
time strolling and skip the museum -- it isn't as if he isn't going to be
spending a lot of time in museums in Florence -- but then I am not a 'must
see' sort of traveler -- we didn't go to the wonderful Bargello till our
second trip to Florence
Poetic Justice
florence siena sita It will pull-up alot of info (schedules, trip
reports, etc). Regards, Walter
WL wrote:
>Thanks for the reply Paul (and Hamilton
>too) - good of you to recommend the bus
>over the train. I've never actually travelled
>by Bus in Italy (well, once) - how much is
>likely to be? The train takes about an hour
>and a half - how long for the bus?
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
Tom
WL schrieb:
Climb to the top of the belltower of the town hall. The last 3 meters
will test your head for heights - an open wooden ladder up to the belfry
with nothing but fresh air all round you.
Tom.
--
Note: the sender's address which is displayed in the header may be
different from the real address.
To reply, please be sure to mail "tandp at freenet dot de"
hamilton
> WL schrieb:
> >
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I usually don't like posting "requests" like this, but have no alternative
> > this time - so forgive me. We're going to Florence in 10 days time, and
> > thought we would take a day trip to Siena (only 1.30 hours by train) -
> > somewhere I've never been, having been to Italy 6 times now.
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone could give us some tips or secrets as to the best
> > places to go in Siena. Personally, I just like walking around towns and
> > cities if I'm only going for a day, just to get the feel and atmosphere of
> > the place - and that's usually enough to tempt me back (assuming it grabs
> > me). But if there are any "must see" places, I'd love to hear about them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Will
> > London, UK.
> > --
> > GPRS Forums:
> > http://GPRSCommunity.com
>
> Climb to the top of the belltower of the town hall. The last 3 meters
> will test your head for heights - an open wooden ladder up to the belfry
> with nothing but fresh air all round you.
> Tom.
and OSHA is nowhere around -- after the claustrophic climb up the tiny
passages in the stone tower itself, this final assault is pretty scary
stuff -- but the view is worth it
WL
> The bus company is called SITA, in a www.google.com search type-in
> florence siena sita It will pull-up alot of info (schedules, trip
> reports, etc). Regards, Walter
Thanks Walter - loads of useful info found
Pan
wrote:
>In article <3d3a0fee...@news.erols.com>, panNO...@musician.org
>(Pan) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:44:13 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> >>Siena is a 'being there' place -- just stroll through the various contrada
>> >noting their totem fountains and the contrada symbols worked into
>> >buildings in their area. If you are lucky there will be some contrada
>> >related ceremony going on in town -- we have stumbled on a pilgrimage in
>> >costume to St. Katherine, to the selection of the horses for the palio,
>> >and observed young men practicing in courtyards for handling the flags etc
>> >in festivals.
>>
>> I agree, but if I had one day, I probably wouldn't take too many
>> leisurely strolls, so as not to miss the most important sights. Others
>> may differ.
>
>actually the best advise would be to spend at least one night there -- a
>day trip is squeezing it too tight --
I think one day and one night is still squeezing it too tight. I
recommend 2-3 days minimum.
>although I would still spend some
>time strolling and skip the museum -- it isn't as if he isn't going to be
>spending a lot of time in museums in Florence --
Sienese art is unique and unlike anything one can see elsewhere, so it
depends how important seeing great Sienese art is to each person.
>but then I am not a 'must
>see' sort of traveler -- we didn't go to the wonderful Bargello till our
>second trip to Florence
[snip]
I love the Bargello, too, but there's no way to see every great thing
in Florence on a short trip - say, a week or 10 days...or probably
even two weeks... :-)
Siena is much smaller, so even though it has exceptional sights, one
really can cover them all in 3 days, and conceivably 2, if one really
hustles.
Ken Blake
>> actually the best advise would be to spend at least one night
there -
>> - a day trip is squeezing it too tight --
>
> I think one day and one night is still squeezing it too tight.
I
> recommend 2-3 days minimum.
I agree. On our most recent trip to Italy (April-May of this
year) we spent five days in Siena (and we had been there twice
before). I by no means thought that was too long.
One of the problems with a day trip is that Siena is extremely
crowded with day trippers. It's only in the early morning and
evening that you can really appreciate what it's like. On this
last trip, for example, I just hated going to the Campo during
most of the day, but loved it each morning and evening.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
Pan
<kbl...@this.is.an.invalid.domain.com> wrote:
[snip]
>One of the problems with a day trip is that Siena is extremely
>crowded with day trippers. It's only in the early morning and
>evening that you can really appreciate what it's like. On this
>last trip, for example, I just hated going to the Campo during
>most of the day, but loved it each morning and evening.
I agree. The Piazza del Campo is full of friendly people hanging out
in the evening. They come from all over Italy and the rest of the
world, and include some locals. It's a lot of fun to spend time there,
and also to do the passeggiata to San Domenico.
To some extent, what you're saying is also true of San Gimignano. The
night hangout there is on the steps of the Collegiata, but it's a much
smaller town, and one really can see the "must-sees" in one day there
(part of the morning and the whole afternoon, probably).
TOF
above: Sitting at a restaurant in the Piazza del Campo at night,
having a drink and watching the moon over the skyline. I hope you
have a good friend with you.
On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:05:24 +0100, "WL" <ne...@gprscommunity.com>
wrote:
>Hi all.
hamilton
<kbl...@this.is.an.invalid.domain.com> wrote:
absolutely -- one of my most delightful times there [in addition to
midnight on the campo under a full moon] -- was an early morning stroll
through the Tower contrada, taking pictures of the contrada symbols etc --
quiet and peaceful and noone on the streets -- it was a Sunday morning and
when I started my stroll the Campo was littered with bottles and trash
from SAturday night -- by the time my family was ready for breakfast at a
Campo restaurant, the mess had been cleaned up [we normally don't eat at
sidewalk cafes in major squares because it is so expensive -- but it was
worth it here -- and we were trying to create pleasant moments for my 80
year old mother who was with us on this trip]
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden with all the tacky consumer
stands etc that that brings out -- rows of shabby little booths with
trashy couvenirs and when we were last there a tent on the outskirts with
video games -- in the evening, all that disappears and it is a charming
place
Unknown
impression. I didn't think it was tacky at all. Maybe the tacky
vendors move in later in the tourist season. We thought SG was very
charning and was one of our favorites on our recent 12 day trip to
Italy.
On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:01 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
wrote:
Pan
>One of the best suggestions I have seen in this group is the one
>above: Sitting at a restaurant in the Piazza del Campo at night,
>having a drink and watching the moon over the skyline. I hope you
>have a good friend with you.
If not, it's fun to do it by yourself!
Pan
wrote:
>San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden with all the tacky consumer
>stands etc that that brings out -- rows of shabby little booths with
>trashy couvenirs and when we were last there a tent on the outskirts with
>video games -- in the evening, all that disappears and it is a charming
>place
Yes.
Of course, it's popular with tourists for a very good reason! Let's
not forget that.
Best,
Norm Soley
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:01 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> wrote:
>
> >San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden with all the tacky consumer
> >stands etc that that brings out -- rows of shabby little booths with
> >trashy couvenirs and when we were last there a tent on the outskirts with
> >video games -- in the evening, all that disappears and it is a charming
> >place
One needn't wait until evening, simply step away from the tourist strip
(the road that runs from the main gate, through the piazza) and you'll find that
charming town is there, there are some nice artist's studios that are usually open to visit
or just grab a bottle of wine and some bread and cheese in the
tourist shops and make yourself a nice picnic in the park behind the (darn, forget the
name of the place, big castle like thing).
Pan
<nso...@bytemespammer.com> wrote:
[snip - re San Gimignano]
>make yourself a nice picnic in the park behind the (darn, forget the
>name of the place, big castle like thing).
La Rocca.
hamilton
> We were in San Gimignano in early June 2002 and didn't get the same
> impression. I didn't think it was tacky at all. Maybe the tacky
> vendors move in later in the tourist season. We thought SG was very
> charning and was one of our favorites on our recent 12 day trip to
> Italy.
you didn't see the video games and the stands with little pigs dressed in
costumes?
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:01 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> wrote:
>
> >San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden with all the tacky consumer
> >stands etc that that brings out -- rows of shabby little booths with
> >trashy couvenirs and when we were last there a tent on the outskirts with
> >video games -- in the evening, all that disappears and it is a charming
> >place
>
> Yes.
>
> Of course, it's popular with tourists for a very good reason! Let's
> not forget that.
I refuse to believe that there are people who really think a town is
improved by having little stands that sell sausage with pigs dressed in
costume -- or small monk salt shakers -- but you may be right.
Kevin K.
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:46:06 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
Pan
wrote:
>In article <3d3c8622...@news.erols.com>, panNO...@musician.org
>(Pan) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:01 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden
[snip]
>> Yes.
>>
>> Of course, it's popular with tourists for a very good reason! Let's
>> not forget that.
>
>I refuse to believe that there are people who really think a town is
>improved by having little stands that sell sausage with pigs dressed in
>costume -- or small monk salt shakers -- but you may be right.
It wouldn't have bothered me inordinately - and if it was there when I
took a day trip there in 1991, I apparently didn't much notice it. But
that wasn't my point. My point was that San Gimignano is "tourist
ridden" because it's such a great place to visit!
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:47:12 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3d3c8622...@news.erols.com>, panNO...@musician.org
> >(Pan) wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:01 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >San Gimignano is distressingly tourist ridden
> [snip]
>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> Of course, it's popular with tourists for a very good reason! Let's
> >> not forget that.
> >
> >I refuse to believe that there are people who really think a town is
> >improved by having little stands that sell sausage with pigs dressed in
> >costume -- or small monk salt shakers -- but you may be right.
>
> It wouldn't have bothered me inordinately - and if it was there when I
> took a day trip there in 1991, I apparently didn't much notice it. But
> that wasn't my point. My point was that San Gimignano is "tourist
> ridden" because it's such a great place to visit!
>
that is actually a good point -- there is a reason that the little known
works of Beethoven for example are less well known than the 9th -- there
is a reason why people swarm to Pompeii or Rome or Paris -- one a first
pass through an area, the well known sights are likely to be the place to
go -- there is generally a reason they are well known
that said -- we found San Gimignano by day a somewhat sad sight -- it is
possible to take a tiny interesting spot and kitch it up beyond repair
Tom
hamilton schrieb:
Right, plus in my case, I was trying to impress a very attractive young
lady at the time by climbing all the way, so there was no way I could
turn back <VBG>
Kevin K.
to be up on the very top level, almost eye level with the bottom of
the bell, when it struck 5PM. It was more scary than painful. They
should really warn you about it. For some reason it rang 5 again at
about 5:10 PM while I was still up there.
Pan
wrote:
>In article <3d3e2273...@news.erols.com>, panNO...@musician.org
>(Pan) wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:47:12 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
>> wrote:
>> >I refuse to believe that there are people who really think a town is
>> >improved by having little stands that sell sausage with pigs dressed in
>> >costume -- or small monk salt shakers -- but you may be right.
>>
>> It wouldn't have bothered me inordinately - and if it was there when I
>> took a day trip there in 1991, I apparently didn't much notice it. But
>> that wasn't my point. My point was that San Gimignano is "tourist
>> ridden" because it's such a great place to visit!
>>
>
>that is actually a good point -- there is a reason that the little known
>works of Beethoven for example are less well known than the 9th -- there
>is a reason why people swarm to Pompeii or Rome or Paris -- one a first
>pass through an area, the well known sights are likely to be the place to
>go -- there is generally a reason they are well known
Right.
>that said -- we found San Gimignano by day a somewhat sad sight -- it is
>possible to take a tiny interesting spot and kitch it up beyond repair
I thought it was beautiful and had amazing art for such a small town.
It's good to be there in the night also, I agree, but by no means did
I find it kitched up beyond repair. I walked past all the kitch and
saw the great paintings and looked at the picturesque architecture and
the view from La Rocca.
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
for me the best of San Gimignano was driving half a mile below into the
vineyards and looking back -- have a great picture through the vines of
the silly tuscan priapic towers [the whole build and knock down each
others towers habits of this area in medieval and later times is a tribute
to the apparent rule of adolescents]
Cynthia
> Hi all.
>
> I usually don't like posting "requests" like this, but have no alternative
> this time - so forgive me. We're going to Florence in 10 days time, and
> thought we would take a day trip to Siena (only 1.30 hours by train) -
> somewhere I've never been, having been to Italy 6 times now.
>
> I was wondering if anyone could give us some tips or secrets as to the best
> places to go in Siena. Personally, I just like walking around towns and
> cities if I'm only going for a day, just to get the feel and atmosphere of
> the place - and that's usually enough to tempt me back (assuming it grabs
> me). But if there are any "must see" places, I'd love to hear about them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
> London, UK.
Will:
This may be late but you must see the Ambrogio Lorenzetti as others
have noted, Museum hours 10-7 in summer, price 6.5 euros. Other major
Sienese artist is Simone Martini. Besides that, do just walk around.
Siena is also known for its pastries, try one of the Nannini stores (I
love panforte).
Cynthia
www.smilingeggplant.com
hamilton
in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia) wrote:
wow I knew someone had to like the stuff. It DOES make great gifts
because it is like carrying a frisbee in your suitcase -- travels very
well.
Pan
wrote:
>Will:
>
>This may be late but you must see the Ambrogio Lorenzetti as others
>have noted, Museum hours 10-7 in summer, price 6.5 euros. Other major
>Sienese artist is Simone Martini.
Unfortunately, the Maesta' by Simone Martini in the Palazzo Publico
was destroyed by overcleaning during the process of "restoration." (I
saw the painting in 1991 before they touched it, and again in 1994,
with a large reproduction of the previous state of the painting then
shown next to it.) It used to be a great painting but now is totally
flat and absolutely devoid of 3-dimensionality, and this has nothing
to do with the Gothic style, which is a style that has always been
known for volumetric drapery, etc. But look for works by Martini in
the Museo Metropolitano and the Pinacoteca. I was very distressed to
see how many paintings were greatly damaged by "restoration" during my
last trip to the Pinacoteca, but you will undoubtedly find some that
are not. I just wish the Italian restorers were conservative and
delicate like the French ones, but I also know that no complaints will
change things.
> Besides that, do just walk around.
>Siena is also known for its pastries, try one of the Nannini stores (I
>love panforte).
I love panforte, too, and the main Nannini shop on Banchi di Sopra has
a nice ambiance, but if you want to save money, we found on our last
trip that supermarkets were the way to go.
Best,
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2002 06:49:40 -0700, in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia)
> wrote:
>
> >Will:
> >
> >This may be late but you must see the Ambrogio Lorenzetti as others
> >have noted, Museum hours 10-7 in summer, price 6.5 euros. Other major
> >Sienese artist is Simone Martini.
>
> Unfortunately, the Maesta' by Simone Martini in the Palazzo Publico
> was destroyed by overcleaning during the process of "restoration." (I
> saw the painting in 1991 before they touched it, and again in 1994,
> with a large reproduction of the previous state of the painting then
> shown next to it.) It used to be a great painting but now is totally
> flat and absolutely devoid of 3-dimensionality, and this has nothing
> to do with the Gothic style, which is a style that has always been
> known for volumetric drapery, etc. But look for works by Martini in
> the Museo Metropolitano and the Pinacoteca. I was very distressed to
> see how many paintings were greatly damaged by "restoration" during my
> last trip to the Pinacoteca, but you will undoubtedly find some that
> are not. I just wish the Italian restorers were conservative and
> delicate like the French ones, but I also know that no complaints will
> change things.
when I visited it was under restoration -- and they had substituted a
large postcard essentially for it in the museum -- people were busily
photographing this, to me obvious, reproduction without apparently being
aware that it was no more than a poster -- it is too bad they have botched
the restoration -- although that is common
it seems odd though in a country that has managed to totally remove the
Last Super from the wall in order to have an authentic restoration
Pan
wrote:
[snip]
>it seems odd though in a country that has managed to totally remove the
>Last Super from the wall in order to have an authentic restoration
Sorry: Whose Last Supper?
hamilton
(Pan) wrote:
uh Da Vinci's
seen it? there is no there there -- apparently the Last Supper we we know
it was the product of centuries of inpainting and restoration --the
restoration has removed all that and now there is nothing much left
Pan
wrote:
>In article <3d463fd0...@news.erols.com>, panNO...@musician.org
>(Pan) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:30:17 -0500, hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton)
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> >it seems odd though in a country that has managed to totally remove the
>> >Last Super from the wall in order to have an authentic restoration
>>
>> Sorry: Whose Last Supper?
>uh Da Vinci's
Sorry. Lots of people have painted Last Suppers, so I didn't know
whose you were talking about.
>seen it?
Nope. I've never been to Milan.
> there is no there there -- apparently the Last Supper we we know
>it was the product of centuries of inpainting and restoration
Perhaps that's just the claim the restorers made. It might not be
true.
> --the
>restoration has removed all that and now there is nothing much left
That really sucks. But what's also true is that a finished painting by
Da Vinci that there's nothing much left of is in a form that never
existed when Da Vinci and perhaps his assistants were finished with
it. _That_ much really would seem clear to me, and presenting a
finished painting as a finished painting, in the form that was
considered finished at the time, is a much more reasonable goal than
attempting to "restore" it to a clearly unfinished or otherwise
clearly unacceptable state, from the viewpoint of the original
viewers. I've seen "restored" Renaissance paintings in Italy that look
like poor cartoons, and many others that flatten out like Milton
Averys. OK, I'll end the rant here. This page about the restoration of
Da Vinci's Last Supper is interesting:
http://arthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa060999.htm
Cynthia
one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that they see
it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from Vinci", his
birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il Buonarroti", but they
don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della Francesca "Della
Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of calling the biggies
by one name or nickname, not their surname: Giorgione, Veronese,
Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto. A cool quote from our man: "parleransi li
omini di remotissimi paesi l'uno all'altro e risponderansi"-men from
very distant places will one day talk to and answer each other.
Cynthia
www.smilingeggplant.com
panNO...@musician.org (Pan) wrote in message news:<3d472b1c...@news.erols.com>...
Pan
wrote:
>Referring to Leonardo as "Da Vinci" grates on my delicate nerves. No
>one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that they see
>it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from Vinci", his
>birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il Buonarroti", but they
>don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della Francesca "Della
>Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of calling the biggies
>by one name or nickname, not their surname: Giorgione, Veronese,
>Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto. A cool quote from our man: "parleransi li
>omini di remotissimi paesi l'uno all'altro e risponderansi"-men from
>very distant places will one day talk to and answer each other.
Your point is well taken.
Michael from New York :-)
hamilton
in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia) wrote:
> Referring to Leonardo as "Da Vinci" grates on my delicate nerves. No
> one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that they see
> it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from Vinci", his
> birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il Buonarroti", but they
> don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della Francesca "Della
> Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of calling the biggies
> by one name or nickname, not their surname: Giorgione, Veronese,
> Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto. A cool quote from our man: "parleransi li
> omini di remotissimi paesi l'uno all'altro e risponderansi"-men from
> very distant places will one day talk to and answer each other.
yes you are absolutely right -- brain fart on my part --
are you satisfied?
Cynthia
> In article <22e44ccc.02080...@posting.google.com>,
> in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia) wrote:
>
> > Referring to Leonardo as "Da Vinci" grates on my delicate nerves. No
> > one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that they see
> > it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from Vinci", his
> > birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il Buonarroti", but they
> > don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della Francesca "Della
> > Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of calling the biggies
> > by one name or nickname, not their surname: Giorgione, Veronese,
> > Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto. A cool quote from our man: "parleransi li
> > omini di remotissimi paesi l'uno all'altro e risponderansi"-men from
> > very distant places will one day talk to and answer each other.
>
> yes you are absolutely right -- brain fart on my part --
>
> are you satisfied?
Very gratified indeed. Now to get the other bizillion Americans who do
this to quit ;-)
Cynthia
hamilton
> hami...@dnvln.com (hamilton) wrote in message
news:<hamilton-010...@host-209-214-117-135.bna.bellsouth.net>...
> > In article <22e44ccc.02080...@posting.google.com>,
> > in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia) wrote:
> >
> > > Referring to Leonardo as "Da Vinci" grates on my delicate nerves. No
> > > one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that they see
> > > it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from Vinci", his
> > > birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il Buonarroti", but they
> > > don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della Francesca "Della
> > > Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of calling the biggies
> > > by one name or nickname, not their surname: Giorgione, Veronese,
> > > Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto. A cool quote from our man: "parleransi li
> > > omini di remotissimi paesi l'uno all'altro e risponderansi"-men from
> > > very distant places will one day talk to and answer each other.
> >
> > yes you are absolutely right -- brain fart on my part --
> >
> > are you satisfied?
>
> Very gratified indeed. Now to get the other bizillion Americans who do
> this to quit ;-)
>
> Cynthia
in the US we refer to people by their last names -- so it is natural for
someone to default to that usage -- no tradition of kings and queens
[although we are working on it with the current dim bulb dynasty in the
White House] -- or of artists who aren't known by their family names --
and no one I know is Jed of Seattle or Frank of Frisco -- so da Vinci
feels like a last name if one doesn't think about it
Ken Blake
in...@smilingeggplant.com (Cynthia) wrote:
> Referring to Leonardo as "Da Vinci" grates on my delicate
nerves. No
> one in il Bel Paese refers to him that way, and I doubt that
they
> see it as a surname rather than as "Leonard who comes from
Vinci",
> his birthplace. They sometimes call Michelangelo "il
Buonarroti",
> but they don't call Leonardo "Da Vinci" or Piero della
Francesca
> "Della Francesca". It goes against the whole tradition of
calling
> the biggies by one name or nickname, not their surname:
Giorgione,
> Veronese, Titian, Raphael, Tintoretto.
I agree with almost everything you say, but it's not a universal
rule. For example, you mention Veronese. "Veronese" was a name he
was called to indicate that he was from Verona--just like da
Vinci indicates that Leonardo was from Vinci. There's an
inconsistency here; we call Leonardo "Leonardo," but we call
Paolo "Veronese."
There are also other exceptions--perhaps many of them.
Caravaggio's full name was Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio, but
I've never seen him called anything but just "Caravaggio" (I had
to look up his full name to find out what it was). And surely
nobody would call Andrea Mantegna just "Andrea"; if you did,
nobody would have any idea who you meant.
I'm sure there are lots of other exceptions, but these two very
great painters spring to mind.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
Ken Blake
news:hamilton-020...@host-209-214-112-11.bna.bellsouth.
net:
> in the US we refer to people by their last names -- so it is
natural
> for someone to default to that usage
Yes, I agree.
>-- no tradition of kings and
> queens [although we are working on it with the current dim bulb
> dynasty in the White House] -- or of artists who aren't known
by
> their family names -- and no one I know is Jed of Seattle or
Frank
> of Frisco -- so da Vinci feels like a last name if one doesn't
think
> about it
You may not knew a Jed of Seattle, but I'd be surprised if you
never ran across someone whose last name indicated their place of
origin. There are many examples from Italy and elsewhere in
Europe. I've known or known of people whose last names were
Taormina, Palermo, Napolitano, Lucchese, Mantovani, Berliner,
Bialystock, and so on. (I'll refrain from saying I know someone
named Florence.)