Eastern Europe--best atmosphere?
Sunny
foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
alternative?
Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
would it be preferable to do so in this region?
Thanks for any suggestions.
'Sunny' in Oz
_________________________
The Juggernaut Jockey
"Sunny" <o...@optusnetXCAPS.com.au> wrote
wondering which of the
> cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
> the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
Very difficult question to answer. The whole of eastern Europe has a "feel"
of its own. I would certainly recommend that you visit the provinces and
countryside of any country you visit, since capital cities worldwide seem to
more closely related to each other than to the country itself.
For Russia you may well find it easier to to go on an organised trip. It
used to be the case that you had to have an invitation and pre-arranged
accommodation before a visa would be issued, perhaps it would be helpful if
someone knows if this is still the case?
Certainly, the whole region is well worth a visit
.
--
Regards,
Vince
Truck Driving In Russia- www.coventon.co.uk
dion_b
thing you want to do, and Praha is definately out. I personally had good
experiences in Hradec-Kralove (CZ), the area around Hunedoara (RO,
including the nearby Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa and Sarmizegetusa Regia
ruins and museums) and Cetinje (erm- Crna Gora (former Yugoslavia,
called Monte Negro in Italian).
All somewhat off the beaten track, but with a lot of couleur locale,
culture and architecture to offer. Make sure you get a good travel guide
of the area (Rough Guide tends to be my favorite for Eastern Europe
although LP isn't far behind and Bradt has the excellent Hiking Guide to
Romania, which, even for non-hikers, beats the other two hands down) and
do a bit of research in advance into the history and people of the area.
Hradec-Kralove was once the second city of Bohemia, also the scene of
vicious fighting in 30 years and Prussian-Austrian wars, now probably
the best example of 1930-s architecture preserved anywhere (with baroque
/medieval centre and the ususal communist suburbs), Hunedoara was one of
the major fortress cities of Transsylvania, where Janos Hunyadi captured
and imprisoned Vlad Tepes (i.e. the real 'Dracula') in a magnificent and
still standing castle, and was also the place where the 1848 revolt
against the Hungarians started. Cetinje was the 1900 capital of the
Kingdom of Montenegro, full of abandoned splendour and boastful tales
(ask anyone about the Montenegrin-Japanese war that started in 1905 and
only ended a few years ago), and was surrounded by hilltop tribes
(organised in Clans like the Scots, to whom they feel related).
But these are just three places, there are thousands more like them to
discover if you steer clear of the tourist traps :)
John Bermont
Sunny,
I suggest you consider Ljubljana, Slovenia as a part of your trip. It is
a beautiful and well-mannered city.
John Bermont
http://www.enjoy-europe.com
Frank F. Matthews
reconstruction but has been done well. Belgrade had a more authentic
feel but was a much smaller place. FFM
Sunny
> Thanks for any suggestions.
Thanks for the responses (and private email) ..all suggestions duly
noted. <s> Also planning some time in Spain, Morocco and the Greek
Islands..but I will do some archive search for this ng, lurk a little
and maybe ask some more questions a little later. How did we ever
travel before the Net? <s>
SUNNY
________________________
MrFalafel
No need for an organised tour. It would help if you spoke a little
German but you'll get by with just pointing and smiling.
Krakow is one of the most interesting towns I've ever been to in
europe. It's one of my favourite destinations. You can spend weeks
there immersing yourself. The old town is easily covered on foot and
there are all sorts of interesting restaurants and things to see. top
marks in my book.
David Eerdmans
Sunny <o...@optusnetXCAPS.com.au> wrote in article
<3fc0a23d$0$13681$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> Mature, reasonably experienced, independent, mildly adventurous but not
> foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
> cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
> the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
> Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
> alternative?
> Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
> rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
> places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
> suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
Perhaps the capitals of the Baltic states? I found Vilnius and Riga to be
very nice cities, and not overrun with tourists yet. I didn't visit
Tallinn, but I heard it's a nice city too.
In Poland, Krakow and Wroclaw are both great cities, though more touristic
than Vilnius and Riga. Warsaw is not really beautiful, but a very
interesting city and also well worth a visit in my opinion.
> Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
> departing from London.
Coming from St. Petersburg, you could easily do St. Petersburg - Tallinn -
Riga - Vilnius - Warsaw - and further.
> We have never taken an organised tour before but
> would it be preferable to do so in this region?
I'd never recommend it. I like the freedom to go where I like. Travelling
in countries like these is not very hard. It's a bit more difficult to find
someone who speaks English, but even if you don't, you'll probably manage
using universal language (hands and feet ;-)
Regards,
David
David Eerdmans
Sunny <o...@optusnetXCAPS.com.au> wrote in article
<3fc0a23d$0$13681$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> Mature, reasonably experienced, independent, mildly adventurous but not
> foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
> cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
> the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
> Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
> alternative?
> Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
> rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
> places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
> suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
Perhaps the capitals of the Baltic states? I found Vilnius and Riga to be
very nice cities, and not overrun with tourists yet. I didn't visit
Tallinn, but I heard it's a nice city too.
In Poland, Krakow and Wroclaw are both great cities, though more touristic
than Vilnius and Riga. Warsaw is not really beautiful, but a very
interesting city and also well worth a visit in my opinion.
> Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
> departing from London.
Coming from St. Petersburg, you could easily do St. Petersburg - Tallinn -
Riga - Vilnius - Warsaw - and further.
> We have never taken an organised tour before but
> would it be preferable to do so in this region?
I'd never recommend it. I like the freedom to go where I like. Travelling
Leland Windreich
and some grand environs for day trips--north to the Danube Bend, east to the
Puszta, south to Lake Balaton, west to the baroque towns near the Austrian
border. I've been there 4 times and have never had any problems with
language. People are generally friendly and hospitable, and food is
excellent.
Despite the heavy tourism in Prague, I would go back there any day as well.
Another versatile, cosmopolitan city with gorgeous architecture and
wonderful opera, concerts, ballet. If you stay in a b&b outside the center
of town you will feel that you are in a rural setting.
Both cities have excellent public transit.
"David Eerdmans" <usen...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:01c3b3ae$e3860b40$9600000a@computer...
Ivan Sever
"Leland Windreich" <Lwind...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> I'd opt for Budapest, which will have all the cultural amenities you require
> and some grand environs for day trips--north to the Danube Bend, east to the
> Puszta, south to Lake Balaton, west to the baroque towns near the Austrian
> border. I've been there 4 times and have never had any problems with
> language. People are generally friendly and hospitable, and food is
> excellent.
>
> Despite the heavy tourism in Prague, I would go back there any day as well.
Unfortunately, neither of these cities is in eastern Europe. In fact,
Prague is even WEST of Vienna...
Ivan
Deep Freud Moors
wrote:
Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
Slovenia etc. are in the east.
The phrases do not adhere strictly to the compass.
---
DFM
Igor Sklar
> Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
> departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
> would it be preferable to do so in this region?
> Thanks for any suggestions.
The most atmospheric small towns in Eastern Europe are Veliko Turnovo
(in Bulgaria), Dubrovnik (in Croatia), and Suzdal (in Russia). In the
Baltic countries, Tallinn is strongly recommended. I found nothing
interesting in Helsinki, Vilnius, Warsaw, Wroclaw, Belgrade. Moscow,
St Petersburg, Prague, Budapest, Kiev, Krakow are all great cities
with truly cosmopolitan aura.
regards
Ken Nedliky
>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
That all changed _10_ years ago. All are referred to being in 'Central
Europe' for the past _10_ years. How long is it going to take before it
sinks in ???
Best Wishes,
Ken Nedliky
Deep Freud Moors
Nedliky) wrote:
>DFM Responded:
>>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
>>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
>>> Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, [Snip]
>
>
>That all changed _10_ years ago. All are referred to being in 'Central
>Europe' for the past _10_ years.
People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
history they'd obviously rather forget.
Central Europe feels kinda ambiguous and indistinct, because of the
extreme differences between some of the countries (and even if they
should be included at all!), eg. Slovakia and Switzerland.
>How long is it going to take before it
>sinks in ???
Probably when all the very noticable differences dissipate. And while
Lonely Planet etc. keep putting out books on Western Europe, Eastern
Europe, Central Europe and Mediterranean Europe, ambiguity shall
remain.
---
DFM
Ivan Sever
The dark-skinned Americans prefer to be known as Blacks or
African-Americans, but you can insist on calling them "Negroes."
Ivan
Deep Freud Moors
wrote:
>In article <38easvc3tn2r4agt8...@4ax.com>,
The point being?
---
DFM
Ivan Sever
devil
And they own the dictionary?
Or is this just a case of some folks advertising their inferiority
complex?
(What is it that makes "east" worse than "center?" Poor Russians...)
Deep Freud Moors
wrote:
>In article <mkkasvsobph2132ia...@4ax.com>,
Why didn't you just say that instead of making a bizarre, unrelated,
unneccesary analogy?
And who is 'they'?
---
DFM
dion_b
> "Sunny" <o...@optusnetXCAPS.com.au> wrote in message news:<3fc0a23d$0$13681$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
>
>
>>Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
>>departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
>>would it be preferable to do so in this region?
>>Thanks for any suggestions.
>
>
> The most atmospheric small towns in Eastern Europe are Veliko Turnovo
> (in Bulgaria), Dubrovnik (in Croatia), and Suzdal (in Russia).
Dubrovnik is certainly picturesque, but the war damage and subsequent
rebuilding has robbed it of much of its atmosphere, everything is too
new and uniform. Even though less uniform, a city like Split is much
more 'authentic', not to mention Hvar, to mention but two Croatian
Dalmatian examples.
> In the
> Baltic countries, Tallinn is strongly recommended.
Certainly. I can particularly recommend it in the middle of winter, when
the ubiquitous snow gives the medieval masonry a fairy-tale like
appearance. The only place I could remotely compare Talinn to is Brugge
in Belgium, although Talinn is smaller but brighter.
I found nothing
> interesting in Helsinki, Vilnius, Warsaw, Wroclaw, Belgrade.
I really must differ on the matter of Helsinki and Vilnius; Napoleon was
so impressed with parts of Vilnius that he intended to have several
buildings demolished and taken back to Paris to be reassembled there.
Fortunately his defeat in Russia kept the buildings where they belong.
It is very notable for its classicist architecture- indeed Vilnius
cathedral is just about the only large church to take the classicist
theme to its logical conclusion and resemble a Greek temple more than
anything else. Vilnius certainly cannot measure up to the extremely high
standards of Talinn and Riga, but is very interesting in its own right
and worth a visit.
Whether Helsinki is in Eastern Europe is worthy of a debate far
outstripping the one on Central vs. Eastern Europe (a debate with a
central role for Urho Kekkonen, but I digress), but that aside, it is
one of my favorite cities, by no means old (the oldest building dates to
the end of the 18th century), but very vibrant and human, from the cafes
of the Esplanada leading onto the Kauppatori to the magnificent
architecture on the north side of the Mannerheimintie, right down to the
rough, grimy pubs in Kallio
As I don't consider Finland to be in Eastern Europe this is all a bit
off-topic, but it is clear that opinions differ.
I might add that when I was last in Finland I was in very international
company and that there appeared to be a dividing line of opinion on the
country that crossed Europe west to east. North of the line, people from
the UK, NL, BE, DE, CZ, PL, LT, LV loved it, whereas those from ES, IT,
HR, and RO hated it. Quite why it should be so is not clear, but it
interestingly also applied to opinions on Vilnius. Maybe you need to be
a northerner to appreciate Finland and Vilnius...
dion_b
Come on, show a bit of respect for the locals...
They don't own the dictionary but they do just happen to live in the
region and so should have some say in the matter, more than people
thousands of kilometers away who probably would not know Bucuresti from
Budapest from Beograd of they were dumped there with every dictionary
under the sun, in any event.
When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
Andrey Frizyuk
Well, it's more complicated. The Poles think they belong to Central
Europe, but Kaliningrad (Russia) is actually west of Warsaw. And
Helsinki (which is east of both Warsaw and Kalinigrad) is usually
assigned to Western Europe.
In the mind of most Westerners, Eastern and Western Europe are still
historico-political rather than geographical concepts.
Best wishes
a.d.danilecki
[cut]
>
> Or is this just a case of some folks advertising their inferiority
> complex?
>
> (What is it that makes "east" worse than "center?" Poor Russians...)
Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
communism) with Russia. Our culture was created solely on western
standards. We feel ties to western Europe, but almost none to Russia,
Georgia, much less to Belarus and Ukraine.
Central Europe is that part of Europe, which feel western Europe, but
is called eastern Europe by westerners.
A.D.Danilecki "szopen"
Bjorn Olsson
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:34:40 -0600 (CST), kned...@webtv.net (Ken
> Nedliky) wrote:
>
> >DFM Responded:
> >>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
> >>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> >>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
> >>> Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, [Snip]
> >
> >
> >That all changed _10_ years ago. All are referred to being in 'Central
> >Europe' for the past _10_ years.
>
> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> history they'd obviously rather forget.
>
> Central Europe feels kinda ambiguous and indistinct, because of the
> extreme differences between some of the countries (and even if they
> should be included at all!), eg. Slovakia and Switzerland.
As far as I can judge from my map, the east-west midway line of
mainland Europe runs through Finland, the Baltic states, Belorussia,
Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece. Saying that Switzerland is in
"Central Europe" does not seem to make much sense from that
perspective (but I guess "Central Europe" always meant "the central
part of Western Europe", just as "Eastern Europe" often meant "the
eastern part of Western Europe").
Driving from Lisbon, you'd be half-way to the Urals when you pass
through the outskirts of Lvov, on the Poland-Ukraine border. When
passing through Geneva, on the other hand, you'd be half-way between
Lisbon and Lvov.
Bjorn
Ken Nedliky
>>Common usage of the phrase 'eastern
>> Europe' denotes that Austria is in
>> western Europe, and the Czech Rep,
>> Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
>> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
The Austrian Government gives the location of the country as Central
Europe. Once again DFM displays his lack of knowledge of both politics
and geography in this area.
www.austria.gv.at/e/
www.austria-tourism.at/index_e.html
Check 'em out
Best Regards,
Ken Nedliky
Arpad
Hi Chopin,
> Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
> Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
> sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
> France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
> communism) with Russia.
Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
> Our culture was created solely on western
> standards.
Yes, that's why your imitative 'culture' has not been able to produce
anything truly original, neither in visual arts nor in literature nor
in science. I've been to your country but was unable to discover
either a handsome palace or an art gallery. The fate of Poland is to
ape 'big Western guys' but never to succeed.
> We feel ties to western Europe, but almost none to Russia,
> Georgia, much less to Belarus and Ukraine.
Not sure whan a non-Slavic country like Georgia has to do with it.
Poles and Czechs have always been considered venal quislings by the
main body of Orthodox Slavdom. Perhaps the only nations who tried so
hard to forfeit their Slavic identity. I thought Germans teached them
a good lesson of 'friendship' during WWII but now I see they are as
naive as ever.
Arpad
--------------------------------------------
"Life is the ordeal of consciousness"
William James
Zemedelec
Ken Nedliky
>><BR><BR>
Samozrejme, fanousek knedliku!
zemedelec
Deep Freud Moors
?????
The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
---
DFM
dion_b
>
> The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
>
> Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
> ---
> DFM
Erm, take a closer look:
www.austria.gv.at/e/ - click on 'Austria', first paragraph, first
sentence: "Austria is located in southern Central Europe."
How much clearer can you get?
Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
rebirth of Central Europe'.
1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
East/West past.
Deep Freud Moors
>> ?????
>>
>> The phrase 'Central Europe' isn't even in either of those pages!
>>
>> Aren't cites supposed to support what you say?
>> ---
>> DFM
>
>Erm, take a closer look:
>
>www.austria.gv.at/e/ - click on 'Austria', first paragraph, first
>sentence: "Austria is located in southern Central Europe."
>
>How much clearer can you get?
You think I am going to traverse a site to get a piece of information
that isn't even relevant to what I said?
>Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
>actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
>map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
>noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
>rebirth of Central Europe'.
>
>1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
>East/West past.
I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
meant.
---
DFM
Dan
suggestion would be that you consider the time, effort and expense
that it will take to get to all these places and the fact that your
visit is 2 weeks. I recommend you pick about 3-4 places and plan on
spending a few days in and around them.
One place suggested was Romania. A nice trip is from Budpest---good
for 2-3 days to Romania. From Deva you can get to Hunadoara which was
mentioned. Stay in Deva and take the bus to Hunadoara to the castle
which is being restored but is still very open, no guides and not
touristy. The real deal.
From there you can get to Cluj-Napoca which is a great city. For
$12/night you could stay with a family and get breakfast. Friends of
mine, very nice and need the money.
From Cluj you can get to Baia Mare and hire a guide and driver for $35
to take you to the region known as Maramures which is largely
Hungarian. Many people still dress in very traditional dress and wear
midieval style footwear. Very interesting. Or spend a night in Youd
which is a very small village with homes for tourists that are very
reasonable.
From there an adventure into Transylvania could be very interesting.
You could easily spend all your time there and not see everything as
is the case in many other places.
Good luck, have fun.
Dan
a.d.danilecki
> szo...@europe.com (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<3f4f8da4.03112...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Hi Chopin,
>
> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
> > communism) with Russia.
>
> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
When Russia conquered half of Poland.
Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
Belarus were one state.
> > Our culture was created solely on western
> > standards.
>
> Yes, that's why your imitative 'culture' has not been able to produce
> anything truly original, neither in visual arts
Matejko, Kossak, Malczewski ...
>nor in literature nor
Arians and their concepts which were then aped by Locke and so on...
Gombrowicz, Milosz, Conrad, Lem, Szymborska ... Krasinski, Mickiewicz,
Slowacki, Norwid... "Witkacy" Witkiewicz ...
In music?
Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
> in science.
Vitelius, Funk, Sklodowska-Curie, Banach, Czochralski, Sierpinski,
Sniadecki, Tarski, Ulam, Lukasiewicz, Steinhaus, Rejewski...
plus controversial like Mandelbrot, Copernicus, Hevelius...
plus Polanski, Wajda, Kieslowski...
If you don't know those names it only shows your ignorancy, not that
we were aping western world.
> I've been to your country but was unable to discover
> either a handsome palace or an art gallery.
You missed all that art-galleries? Shame on you.
About palaces, well, we have that little thing called World War II and
then communism. But still if you were not impressed by Wawel, Lazienki
or Wilanow, tehn well, its just a matter of taste.
> > We feel ties to western Europe, but almost none to Russia,
> > Georgia, much less to Belarus and Ukraine.
>
> Not sure whan a non-Slavic country like Georgia has to do with it.
Georgia is usually considered part of Eastern Europe.
> Poles and Czechs have always been considered venal quislings by the
> main body of Orthodox Slavdom. Perhaps the only nations who tried so
> hard to forfeit their Slavic identity. I thought Germans teached them
Actually there was once popular theory in Poland that Russian are not
Slavs, but Mongolic tribe which accepted Slavic language :) (<- that's
smiley for those without sense of humour)
Besides, what Germans? I prefer to use term "Nazis". I would want to
think that average German should not be identified with Nazis, even if
many of them were following their orders with great enthusiasm.
A.D.Danilecki
bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk
szo...@europe.com (a.d.danilecki) wrote:
> In music?
>
> Chopin, Paderewski, Penderecki...
Lutoslawski, Gorecki...
devil
They can try. Sure they are free to look silly. To advertise their
inferiority complex.
(Point remaining that there is nothing intrinsically worse with "east" as
compared with "center" until some agenda comes into the picture that's
pure emotions. And that *is* demeaning to their neighbors to the east.)
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
Not sure that bears any relationship.
The story reminds me of an attempt, some years back, by the then military
regime in Brazil, to rewrite the English dictionary, forcing the world to
spell the name as in Portuguese, with an s instead of z.
Similar story, the inferiority complex thing, aka nationalism.
No matter what spin you put on these, allow me to laugh.
devil
> arp...@centrum.cz (Arpad) wrote in message news:<b062caa9.03112...@posting.google.com>...
>> szo...@europe.com (a.d.danilecki) wrote in message news:<3f4f8da4.03112...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> Hi Chopin,
>>
>> > Can't say for Croatians, but Czechs and Poles definetely felt part of
>> > Western Europe and especially in Poland our identity is created in
>> > sharp contrast to Russia. We have a lot of common with Germany,
>> > France, but almost nothing in common (except last 40 years in
>> > communism) with Russia.
>>
>> Except language which is the main identification mark of any nation.
>> Two greatest Polish writers, Mickiewicz and Slowacki, were born in
>> Belarus and Ukraine, respectively. Ukrainian Lviv has been the second
>> largest city of Poland for 500 years (until 1945). Not to forget
>> common borders, and hundreds years of history when Poland, Ukraine,
>> Belarus, and Russia constituted the same state.
>
> When Russia conquered half of Poland.
>
> Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> Belarus were one state.
And before that, Poland didn't exist...
Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
Ivan Sever
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> >Is it so difficult to accept what the people living in these areas
> >actually think, rather than stick doggedly to a cold-war era European
> >map with an Iron curtain descending from Stettin to Trieste? It is worth
> >noting that the 1990's have been described by many historians as 'the
> >rebirth of Central Europe'.
> >
> >1989 was almost 15 years ago, please stop living in the black/white
> >East/West past.
>
> I have not said/suggested/alluded to ANY of the above .
>
> All I said was that the phrase "Eastern Europe" is still commonly
> used. At no point did I say "Austria is in Western Europe, not Central
> Europe" or "The Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, not Central
> Europe", but that didn't stop people from assuming that is what I
> meant.
Allow me to quote:
In article <0e88svg8ru6jnpm0i...@4ax.com>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACUALLYiREALLY!l.nu > wrote:
> Common usage of the phrase 'eastern Europe' denotes that Austria is in
> western Europe, and the Czech Rep, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia,
> Slovenia etc. are in the east.
and:
In article <38easvc3tn2r4agt8...@4ax.com>,
Deep Freud Moors <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> People still frequently use the phrase 'Eastern Europe'. I don't
> believe this is in anyway incorrect. Some countries would obviously
> rather disassociate themselves from the phrase, due to it's
> simlilarity to "Eastern Bloc", which reminds them of a patch of
> history they'd obviously rather forget.
Ivan
Jesper Lauridsen
>When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
Ivan Sever
Jesper Lauridsen <rors...@sorrystofanet.dk> wrote:
> When in Rome do as the Romans, after all
>
> But we're not in Eastern Europe, we're on a travel newsgroup. And around
> here the Romans refer to the formerly oppressed countries as "Eastern Europe".
...and the countries formerly occupied by Hitler as "Protectorat."
Ivan
Deep Freud Moors
wrote:
>In article <qdgdsvkgpq7orhd2h...@4ax.com>,
Thank you. Is anyone still confused?
---
DFM
a.d.danilecki
[cut]
> > Before that, Poland and Lithuania and today territories of Ukraine and
> > Belarus were one state.
>
> And before that, Poland didn't exist...
>
> Actually, there is no Poland on my map either. Circa 1850 or so.
>
> But then, who cares? (Until one brings in all kinds of emotions,
> prejudice, tribal wars etc. Nationalism is evil whether it's Dubya's,
> Polish, Hitler's, Mussolini, Brazilian, or whatever. All driven by
> prejudice and inferiority complexes.)
Show some understanding for us, poor Poles. We are feel somewhat bad
when people argue that before WWI Poland did not exist or have
knowledge of Polish history limited to worst periods of it in XVIII
century and latter.
I was referring to earlier times. oF polish-lithuanian commonwealth
Wendy Harrison
Heritage Site. Lots of architecture, history. Lots of churches and
church art. Tons of restoration going on. I spent a week there last
year--I loved it, and would go back. Very reasonably priced right now, too.
Sunny wrote:
>Mature, reasonably experienced, independent, mildly adventurous but not
>foolhardy Aussie travellers are wondering which of the
>cities/towns/villages in Eastern Europe would be recommended to provide
>the best "feel" for a 1 week -2 week visit which could be extended.
>Prague seems popular (too popular, now?) Would Wroclaw be a better
>alternative?
>Our interests are art, architecture, getting to know local history
>rather than wild partying. We prefer to spend quality time in one or two
>places rather than different day/ different city jaunts but open to all
>suggestions as we have not visited this area before.
>Area of interest is from St Petersburg to Dubrovnik and we would be
>departing from London. We have never taken an organised tour before but
>would it be preferable to do so in this region?
>Thanks for any suggestions.
>
>'Sunny' in Oz
>_________________________
>
>
>
>
devil
Sure there were these elected kings in Kracow, wars with Swedes etc. But
look, looking back in its past long enough, any tribe will eventually find
some argument in support of nationalism (AKA the inferiority complex
thing). France can talk about Gauls or Franks, I guess. Germany didn't
exist until the 19th century; which incidentally doesn't seem to
bother them at all.
Gregory Morrow
Well, isn't it true that Prague is *west* of Vienna...???
--
Best
Greg
a.d.danilecki
> Sure there were these elected kings in Kracow, wars with Swedes etc. But
> look, looking back in its past long enough, any tribe will eventually find
> some argument in support of nationalism (AKA the inferiority complex
> thing). France can talk about Gauls or Franks, I guess. Germany didn't
> exist until the 19th century; which incidentally doesn't seem to
> bother them at all.
Well, that does not stop them for claiming that Pommerania, Silesia
etc were German for more than 700 years.
Igor Sklar
> Suggest you have a look at Vilnius, Lithuania. The old city is a World
> Heritage Site. Lots of architecture, history. Lots of churches and
> church art. Tons of restoration going on. I spent a week there last
> year--I loved it, and would go back. Very reasonably priced right now, too.
I can;t agree with you. Vilnius was a big disappointment, especially
after Tallinn and Riga. Kaunas seemed to me much more attractive and
genuinely historical. I also went to Trakai. The place is fabulous but
a large castle there appears to be a rather crude restoration. I found
in the walls some bricks marked '1995' or so.
regards
Gorazd Bozic
Or due to the fact that SFR Yugoslavia (which Slovenia and Croatia were
part of) was never in the Eastern Bloc.
I however agree that nitpicking around Central and Eastern Europe is
pointless. Only time will bring new perceptions, terminology and thus
also new prejudices.
Gorazd
--
Gorazd Bozic <g...@email.si>
Arpad
> Or due to the fact that SFR Yugoslavia (which Slovenia and Croatia were
> part of) was never in the Eastern Bloc.
bullshit!
Yves Bellefeuille
Yugoslavia wasn't a member of the Warsaw Pact or of the CMEA (Comecon),
which is as good a definition of the "Eastern Bloc" as any other. In
fact, Yugoslavia was one of the founders of the non-aligned movement.
(Isn't "Arpad" a Hungarian name rather than a Czech name?)
--
Yves Bellefeuille <y...@storm.ca>, Ottawa, Canada
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