French or German?
Barb
be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
David Hatunen
>I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
>be of more use throughout Europe?
English.
>My choices are French or German.
Oh. German if only because it's rather phonetic, while French is
almost as bad as English for misleading spelling. On the other
hand, German, as studied in school, has a lot of case endings and
conjugations that will drive you up the wall. And the word order
can be a bit awkward for English speakers, while French uses word
order similar to English.
Old joke:
The President of the United States is having a summit meeting with
the Chancellor of Germany. The Chancellor begins speaking and goes
on and on and on. The President wonders why his translator isn't
translating, and whispers "Why aren't you translating this as he
speaks?" The translator whispers back, "I'm waiting for the verb."
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
******* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *******
Michael Forrest
>I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
Interesting. It depends on a number of aspects - some of which only you
can decide about. As an example - if you were planning to go into the
chemical industry I would say German. But if you hope to become an
expert in the history of art I would say French.
It also depends on taking a view about the future of the European Union
- ie which country (ies) will come to dominate it.
And, it is worth appreciating that, worldwide, a lot more people speak
Spanish than either French or German (includign about 34 million in
Europe).
If numbers are the chief criterion then German would be prefered to
French as there are a lot more German speakers than French in Europe.
(And a lot more German speakers than speak English as their first
language of course). But on the other hand, of those who speak German or
French as their first language more German speakers also speak English
than French speakers also speak English (or at least are willing to).
As the balance is not very strongly either way I would advise choosing
on the basis of which you think you will most enjoy (and that probably
means find easiest). Just to confuse you further German grammar is the
hardest, but many English speakers find it easier to pronounce it
acceptably than French.
Let's hear a few other opinions as I think this is an interesting
question/dilemma.
--
Michael Forrest
Ed
>
> I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
> be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
Compromise: Learn French and collaborate with the Germans.
KV
>
> In article <36A895...@small.edu>, Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
> >I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
> >be of more use throughout Europe?
>
> almost as bad as English for misleading spelling. On the other
> hand, German, as studied in school, has a lot of case endings and
> conjugations that will drive you up the wall.
> Old joke:
> The President of the United States is having a summit meeting with
> the Chancellor of Germany. The Chancellor begins speaking and goes
> on and on and on. The President wonders why his translator isn't
> translating, and whispers "Why aren't you translating this as he
> speaks?" The translator whispers back, "I'm waiting for the verb."
>
Good joke. See http://www.bdsnett.no/klaus/twain/ for Mark Twain's
take on the German language, from his book "A Tramp Abroad". Having
just finished German 101 at the local community college, I would say
that Mr. Clemens is exaggerating a bit, but not much!
KV
Thomas Reich
> I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
English ;-)
Seriously, I'd say German. There are more native speakers of that language
in Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) than french native speakers (France,
Belgium, Switzerland), and is more commonly spoken in the east.
On the other hand, if you look at the world as a whole, you're far morelikely
to run into somebody who speaks french than into a german-speaker.
German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it very
hard to learn.
[confusing_suggestions=on]
What about Spanish, anyway :-) ?#
[confusing_suggestions=off]
--
****************************Thomas Reich*******************************
thre...@stud.uni-sb.de Standard-disclaim-lall:
thr...@jurix.jura.uni-sb.de Alles Meins!! Auch die Meinung!
http://jurix.jura.uni-sb.de/~threich irc: tomtulpe
***********************************************************************
Michael Forrest
<hat...@bolt.sonic.net> writes
>
>The President of the United States is having a summit meeting with
>the Chancellor of Germany. The Chancellor begins speaking and goes
>on and on and on. The President wonders why his translator isn't
>translating, and whispers "Why aren't you translating this as he
>speaks?" The translator whispers back, "I'm waiting for the verb."
>
I (an English speaker) am sitting in a conference with people from
almost every western European country. I am sitting next to a Dutchman
who speaks excellent English. A Dane is addressing the conference. The
Dutchman leans over to me and asks what language the speaker is using. I
have to tell him that the Dane is speaking in English.
--
Michael Forrest
Michael Forrest
>almost as bad as English for misleading spelling.
>
>
--
Michael Forrest
Michael Forrest
>almost as bad as English for misleading spelling.
I've been thinking about this. Whether a language is phonetic has two
distinct elements. a) Can you predict the spelling from the spoken word,
and b) can you pronounce the word from the spelling.
On a) English and French are both poor, and German better but not by any
means 100 percent predictable.
On b) English remains hopeless, but French is pretty good except for
proper names, especially place names. German is good.
So I think the original proposition is a bit hard on French.
--
Michael Forrest
MasonBarge
In general, French. First, French is easier.
French is generally more useful for travel, as it is the second language of a
lot of Asian and African countries (although rapidly being replaced by
English). German though is the second language for many parts of Eastern Euro
and some spots in Northern Europe, as well.
French is also "the" second language for a liberal arts education in the U.S.
Whether justified or not, the ability to speak French is considered a sign of
cultural advancement to many Americans, and you will have more opportunity to
use it in the U.S. While speaking German is generally viewed as an
intellectual achievement, it does not carry as much cultural cachet.
German is more useful in some occupations, especially technical ones.
Between the two literatures (including film), my personal preference would be
for French.
I will say, in favor of German, that I think it is a lot of fun.
- Mason Barge
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
Michael Forrest
<ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> writes
>>almost as bad as English for misleading spelling.
>>
>>
>
elsewhere.
--
Michael Forrest
Kathryn Conners
> In general, French. First, French is easier.
And for that reason, I'd recommend learning German first. I think it's a
total toss-up as to which is "more important". Any humanities academic
has to know both anyways, and I've found it much easier to pick up French
than German. If possible, learn *both*... _now_.
Kat
Sarah Scheidel
: MasonBarge (mason...@aol.com) wrote:
Of course, if you know Old English, then German is a snap. :-)
Sarah
--
"Lock up your libraries if you like, but there is no gate, no lock, no bolt
that you can set upon the freedom of my mind" --Virginia Woolf
David Hatunen
Sarah Scheidel <ss0...@news.cc.rochester.edu> wrote:
>Kathryn Conners (klco...@mtholyoke.edu) wrote:
>: MasonBarge (mason...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: > In general, French. First, French is easier.
>
>: And for that reason, I'd recommend learning German first. I think it's a
>: total toss-up as to which is "more important". Any humanities academic
>: has to know both anyways, and I've found it much easier to pick up French
>: than German. If possible, learn *both*... _now_.
>
>Of course, if you know Old English, then German is a snap. :-)
And, of course, to a certain extent, vice-versa.
How about Friesian?
David Boyd
>How about Friesian?
>
>
>
*Much* easier - Friesian vocabulary and grammar are very
straightforward:
Mooh !
and Mooooooooh !
will get you by in most situations, and will be understood even in
Jersey and Guernsey.
--
David Boyd
Cumbria, UK
mailto:da...@dboyd.demon.co.uk
Frank Kolnick
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:
> >I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
> >be of more use throughout Europe?
>
> English.
>
> >My choices are French or German.
>
> Oh. German if only because it's rather phonetic, while French is
> almost as bad as English for misleading spelling. On the other
> hand, German, as studied in school, has a lot of case endings and
> conjugations that will drive you up the wall. And the word order
> can be a bit awkward for English speakers, while French uses word
> order similar to English.
I have to disagree with this (being in the 4th year of a French degree
with a minor in German). If you can remember to place the verb at the
end of a sentence in German, you've got a major word-order trick
licked. German does have lots of endings but, personally, I find that
more 'logical' than French's awkward phrasing. I.e., German is *much*
closer to English than French, both in grammar and pronunciation. The
French word order, spelling, etc. is considerably different.
OTOH, I know people who find French easier to learn than German,
But that wasn't the question, so I'll get off my pedantic soap-box :-)
If you're looking for *utility*, I think you'll be better off with a
working knowledge of both languages than with an in-depth knowledge of
just one. It's not that difficult to get to a level where you can
make yourself understood in common environments, like stores, hostels,
etc. (Getting a passing mark in both may be more challenging :-)
Also consider that a good grasp of French can help you with both
Spanish and Italian, if you plan to travel in those countries.
If I could pick only one, I'd choose French, simply because you're
more likely to be able to use English in German-speaking countries than
in France. But I really believe that being able to stumble along in
the local language greatly enhances the travelling experience.
Frank Kolnick,
Software Consultant (QNX, real-time, tech. writing)
Basis Computer Systems Inc.
Robert Carpenter
>
> A true story:
>
> I (an English speaker) am sitting in a conference with people from
> almost every western European country. I am sitting next to a Dutchman
> who speaks excellent English. A Dane is addressing the conference. The
> Dutchman leans over to me and asks what language the speaker is using. I
> have to tell him that the Dane is speaking in English.
Another 100% true story.
I was eating lunch at a Club Med in Greece and talking English to the
German woman next to me. The only other at table-for-eight were a
couple of womean on the other side. I couldn't figure out what language
they were speaking, and asked the German. She couldn't either, and
asked them in English. The answer was "German". They were Austrians.
So German isn't the same everywhere.
While I swear that the above story is true, a story goes around
concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
We once had a coop student from France who had already served his time
in their army. He was from Alsace, and he and some buddies would speak
Alsacian German in the barracks to harass their fellow French
countrymen.
Belgians and Swiss count differently from the French for numbers in the
70s, 80s, and 90s. None of that "four twenties and eleven" (91) stuff.
All that said, my bias is toward French because I like the warmer
seaside of the Mediterranean, and also it gives you a head start on
Italian and Spanish.
Bob Carpenter
Mary Frey
>I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
>be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
I'm a high school teacher of both these languages. Aside from how
much use either of them would be to you in Europe someday, you ought
to consider a few other things.
Do =you= have a preference for one or the other? Being in a class
that you want to take is a great motivator. And taking a language
that wasn't your first choice [but other people persuaded you to take
it anyway] is not a particularly good motivator.
How large are the average classes in the first and second year courses
at your school? You will learn much more in a smaller class --
fifteen or fewer students. Try to avoid first and second year
classes that have more than 25 students per class because you will
just plain not get as much chance to actually speak the language.
How many years of each language does your school offer? Do they offer
advanced placement courses for seniors, so that you could take an
advanced placement exam and possibly earn some college credit?
What do you know about the teachers' backgrounds? Are any of them
native speakers of the languages they are teaching? Have they lived
for a length of time in a country where the language is spoken? Both
these things can be a plus.
Mary
Brian R. Byrnes
>
> I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which
> would be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or > German.
Both, but if you must choose, then french. That way, when you travel to
Europe with your rail pass (written in english and french) you can
understand the conductor who, after reading the pass, speaks to you in
french. This happened to me one time in Switzerland, but I didn't know
french. I'm studying both now!
Brian
--
Now at: bby...@ieee.org
http://www.telerama.com/~bbyrnes/
Visit the LAM Foundation - Breath of Hope: http://lam.uc.edu/lam.htm
Michael Forrest
<bby...@ieee.org> writes
>Barb wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which
>> would be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or > German.
>
>Both, but if you must choose, then french. That way, when you travel to
>Europe with your rail pass (written in english and french) you can
>understand the conductor who, after reading the pass, speaks to you in
>french. This happened to me one time in Switzerland, but I didn't know
>french. I'm studying both now!
>
>Brian
This can work the other way to help you. I was asked for my driving
licence in Phildelphia by a cop in the days when I had an Intenational
Licence and it dropped open at the page in Chinese - he waved me on
without a further word - I had said nothing either, fortunately.
(PS - My offence? Too fast over the Benjamin Franklin Bridge - I was not
used to the large engines/motors in US cars in those days).
--
Michael Forrest
Michael Forrest
<rca...@erols.com> writes
>a story goes around
>concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
>understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
Correct spelling anyone, please?
>
>We once had a coop student from France who had already served his time
>in their army. He was from Alsace, and he and some buddies would speak
>Alsacian German in the barracks to harass their fellow French
>countrymen.
On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being shown in
Paris that had a sound track in French but also French sub-titles added
in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
>
>Belgians and Swiss count differently from the French for numbers in the
>70s, 80s, and 90s. None of that "four twenties and eleven" (91) stuff.
Ah! But Belgium and Switzerland are also different the one from the
other too. Septante, Huitante and Nonante are not all used in both - to
avoid my getting it the wrong way round would Jack please confirm that
in Belgium it is only Huitante and Nonante that are used and in
Switzerland all three. Or is it even more complicated than that?
>
>All that said, my bias is toward French because I like the warmer
>seaside of the Mediterranean
Well, yes, but there is an awful lot of German spoken on the beaches of
Nice, Cannes etc.
--
Michael Forrest
Michael Forrest
writes
>What do you know about the teachers' backgrounds? Are any of them
>native speakers of the languages they are teaching? Have they lived
>for a length of time in a country where the language is spoken? Both
>these things can be a plus.
>
>
> Mary
>
language (just as any translator should only be translating into their
own language - as many translated manuals demonstarate by default -
"what a terrible manual", "Yes, it's translated from Japanese", "Yes,
but into what language").
PS - just remebered, my wife used to teach French in the UK and also to
Irish nurses in the British Hospital in Paris, before, whilst and after
being a patient there, but it is not her first language - bother.
--
Michael Forrest
Holger Schaefer
>
> In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
> <rca...@erols.com> writes
> >a story goes around
> >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
> >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>
> It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
> Correct spelling anyone, please?
Schwitzerduetsch, I think. Entirely impossible to understand. Swiss tv
shows and movies in Schwitzerduetsch have to be dubbed.
> Well, yes, but there is an awful lot of German spoken on the beaches of
> Nice, Cannes etc.
IMO, French is much more beautiful. Unfortunately, only the French
manage to speak it in a way it sounds good. Regardless how hard you
worked on your French, the people in Paris will instantly identify you
as a foreigner.
--
Holger Schaefer
hsch...@dialup.nacamar.de
hsch...@fh-harz.de
http://www2.fh-harz.de/~hschaefer
Sarah Scheidel
: In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
: <rca...@erols.com> writes
: >a story goes around
: >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
: >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
: It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
: Correct spelling anyone, please?
I believe, but am not sure, that it's called Swissdeutsch.
Robert Carpenter
>
> On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being shown in
> Paris that had a sound track in French but also French sub-titles added
> in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
Another of our French coop students visited after having organized a
trip to Quebec for his French classmates. One of his reactions was that
the Quebecois had invented "French" words for things where the French
themselves use the English word.
Bob C.
Thorsten Bayer
Sarah Scheidel schrieb in Nachricht <78cv66$4h...@biko.cc.rochester.edu>...
>Michael Forrest (ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
>: <rca...@erols.com> writes
>: >a story goes around
>: >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
>: >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>
>: It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
>: Correct spelling anyone, please?
>
>I believe, but am not sure, that it's called Swissdeutsch.
>
It is called "Switzerdytsch"
David Gascon
>
> Michael Forrest (ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
> : <rca...@erols.com> writes
> : >a story goes around
> : >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
> : >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>
> : It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
> : Correct spelling anyone, please?
>
> I believe, but am not sure, that it's called Swissdeutsch.
>
>
> --
> "Lock up your libraries if you like, but there is no gate, no lock, no bolt
> that you can set upon the freedom of my mind" --Virginia Woolf
Schweizdeutsch?
David Gascon
French stop sign: "STOP"
Québecois stop sign: "ARRÊT"
What was the old line about being more royalist than the king, more
Catholic than the pope [,more French than the French], etc.?
A. Woodburn
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Michael Forrest wrote:
> In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
> <rca...@erols.com> writes
> >a story goes around
> >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
> >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>
> It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
> Correct spelling anyone, please?
Technically, I think there is actually no "correct" spelling of Swiss
German, as it is more a spoken than a written language (please correct me
if I'm wrong), but the spelling I have seen most often is
Schwytzertuetsch. It is, technically a "dialect" of German, however, it
is as different from standard german (Hochdeutsch) as is Dutch! Therefore
it's no surprise that the German friend (esp. if he was from the north of
Germany) couldn't understand it!
> >
> >We once had a coop student from France who had already served his time
> >in their army. He was from Alsace, and he and some buddies would speak
> >Alsacian German in the barracks to harass their fellow French
> >countrymen.
>
> On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being shown in
> Paris that had a sound track in French but also French sub-titles added
> in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
> >
> >Belgians and Swiss count differently from the French for numbers in the
> >70s, 80s, and 90s. None of that "four twenties and eleven" (91) stuff.
>
> Ah! But Belgium and Switzerland are also different the one from the
> other too. Septante, Huitante and Nonante are not all used in both - to
> avoid my getting it the wrong way round would Jack please confirm that
> in Belgium it is only Huitante and Nonante that are used and in
> Switzerland all three. Or is it even more complicated than that?
> >
> >All that said, my bias is toward French because I like the warmer
> >seaside of the Mediterranean
>
> Well, yes, but there is an awful lot of German spoken on the beaches of
> Nice, Cannes etc.
>
> --
> Michael Forrest
>
>
A. Woodburn
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Thorsten Bayer wrote:
>
> Sarah Scheidel schrieb in Nachricht <78cv66$4h...@biko.cc.rochester.edu>...
> >Michael Forrest (ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >: In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
> >: <rca...@erols.com> writes
> >: >a story goes around
> >: >concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
> >: >understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
> >
> >: It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
> >: Correct spelling anyone, please?
> >
> >I believe, but am not sure, that it's called Swissdeutsch.
> >
>
>
> It is called "Switzerdytsch"
>
>
There is also, of course, the issue that there are several dialects of
Swiss German. It sounds quite different in different regions of
Switzerland. So they may also pronounce the name of their language
differently. > >
>
ugo
>chemical industry I would say German. But if you hope to become an
>expert in the history of art I would say French.
>
>And, it is worth appreciating that, worldwide, a lot more people speak
>Spanish than either French or German (includign about 34 million in
>Europe).
the third most spoke language in Europe is italian,
and if you have to study history of art, history, litterature
you have to study this language.
population in Europe:
1. germany
2. france
3. italy
4. uk
5. spain
The most important european language is German.
Ugo
Peter Morwood & Diane Duane
wrote:
>In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
><rca...@erols.com> writes
>>a story goes around
>>concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
>>understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>
>It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
>Correct spelling anyone, please?
The blanket term for it is "Switzerdeutsch", "Swiss German", but there really
isn't such a creature: or not just *one* such language. There are lots of
local regional -deutsches: Baslerdeutsch and Bernerdeutsch and Zuercherdeutsch
and Churerdeutsch and, oh, you name it. And while they may sound more or less
like each other, they're not like each other at *all*.
Swiss TV in the German-speaking areas is subtitled in Hochdeutsch (formal
"high" German), and it needs to be. Dialects can vary to a tremendous degree
over the space of just ten or twenty miles.
Best! -- Diane
Peter Morwood & Diane Duane / The Owl Springs Partnership
Co. Wicklow, Ireland / http://www.ibmpcug.co.uk/~owls/index2.html
ICQ # 21654840
David Hatunen
Robert Carpenter <w3...@amsat.org> wrote:
>Michael Forrest wrote:
>>
>> On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being
>> shown in Paris that had a sound track in French but also French
>> sub-titles added in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
>
>a trip to Quebec for his French classmates. One of his reactions
>was that the Quebecois had invented "French" words for things
>where the French themselves use the English word.
When I lived in Montreal I was told that the Quebecoises had kept a
lot of archaic French words since their cut-off from France in 1763
that have been shed by the French themselves.
Before I went to McGill Universtiy, my undergarduate French teacher
(a Marsellaise) lamented, "But M Hatunen, you will ruin your
beautiful accent".
David Hatunen
David Gascon <gpad...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>French stop sign: "STOP"
>Québecois stop sign: "ARRÊT"
When I lived there in te mid-1960s they said
STOP
ARRET
Don Scheidt
>In article <36A942...@erols.com>, Robert Carpenter
><rca...@erols.com> writes
>>a story goes around
>>concerning the German tourist driving in Switzerland and unable to
>>understand the Swiss version of German when he asked for directions.
>It even has a name - but I cannot spell it - which sounds like Dootsch.
>Correct spelling anyone, please?
Lots of folks will say "Schweizerdeutsch"... but that's
the "German" way of saying it. The Swiss dialect word
is "Schwyzertüütsch." Love that double-umluat-u.
--
Don Scheidt, dgs1300[AT]teleport.com (Replace [AT] with @.)
The Northwest BrewPage - http://nwbrewpage.com/
Spammers: I live in Washington state. Go ahead. Send junk.
I can use the $500.
Kirk Benson
>Michael Forrest wrote:
>>
>> On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being shown in
>> Paris that had a sound track in French but also French sub-titles added
>> in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
I was once visiting friends in Amsterdam, and we went to see an
English film at a local cinema. The film was called "Letters to
Brezhnev" and had Dutch sub-titles. The Liverlool accents were so
strong that I had great difficulty in understanding anything that was
said. So I was the only one there who didn't know what was going on.
>Another of our French coop students visited after having organized a
>trip to Quebec for his French classmates. One of his reactions was that
>the Quebecois had invented "French" words for things where the French
>themselves use the English word.
When playing golf in France with French people, I was informed that
they use the English golf terms (e.g., green), while the Quebecois say
"la verte"!
MasonBarge
>worked on your French, the people in Paris will instantly identify you
>as a foreigner.
There are a couple of restaurant shills in the extra-touristy section of St.-
Germain who specialize in telling the nationality of tourists without hearing
them speak a word and then saying "good evening" to them in their native
tongue. One of them nailed me one night, but I got a "guten abend" the next.
On the subject of not understanding foreigners speaking English, German,
whatever: I was driving in rural Maine once (I'm American) and stopped to ask
a couple of 11-year-old boys directions. I could not understand one single
word they said.
Ayuh!
- Mason Barge
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
Lily Toney
>
> > Regardless how hard you
> >worked on your French, the people in Paris will instantly identify you
> >as a foreigner.
>
> There are a couple of restaurant shills in the extra-touristy section of St.-
> Germain who specialize in telling the nationality of tourists without hearing
> them speak a word and then saying "good evening" to them in their native
> tongue. One of them nailed me one night, but I got a "guten abend" the next.
When my Swiss companion and I were checking into our hotel in Paris
(Hotel de St Germain), the desk clerk took one look at me, smiled and
said "You are here to see Jim Morrison". I had not spoken a word, and
was not dressed in anything that should have indicated my interest in
him, but this man had me pegged some how!
- Lily
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me
Vanish in the air you'll never find me.
I will turn your face to alabaster,
Then you'll find your servant is your master
- The Police, "Wrapped Around Your Finger"
Miguel Cruz
> When my Swiss companion and I were checking into our hotel in Paris
> (Hotel de St Germain), the desk clerk took one look at me, smiled and
> said "You are here to see Jim Morrison". I had not spoken a word, and
> was not dressed in anything that should have indicated my interest in
> him, but this man had me pegged some how!
In Singapore last summer, a hotelier took one look at one of the guys I was
traveling with and identified his origin (Colombian) as well as the fact
that he was living temporarily in the United States studying business at a
major university.
I guess these people see so many faces they develop some sort of associative
sixth sense. Certainly would be nice to have.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos, tales, and tips from around the world: http://u.nu
Peter Morwood & Diane Duane
Scheidt) wrote:
>Lots of folks will say "Schweizerdeutsch"... but that's
>the "German" way of saying it. The Swiss dialect word
>is "Schwyzertuutsch." Love that double-umluat-u.
Well, *one* of the dialect words is spelled like that. There are a bunch of
others. (Don't ask me to spell them from memory, though.)
Re the double u: it gets better. In Chur they put umlauts over the letter
y...and then start stringing them together.
Best! - Diane
Michael Forrest
<hat...@bolt.sonic.net> writes
>When I lived in Montreal I was told that the Quebecoises had kept a
>lot of archaic French words since their cut-off from France in 1763
>that have been shed by the French themselves.
>
English words too - like gotten.
--
Michael Forrest
erilar
<thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
> In rec.travel.europe Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
> > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
> > be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
> German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it very
> hard to learn.
I've never been able to figure that out. French pronunciation has about as
much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
Furthermore, French is descended from vulgar Latin, a very distant
relative of the common ancestor of English and German, which isn't very
far back. Besides, many French speakers refuse to understand French
unless it's VERY fluent, while most Germans are pretty patient with anyone
at least trying to speak German.
Mary
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
Robert Carpenter
>
> Besides, many French speakers refuse to understand French
> unless it's VERY fluent,
I have NEVER run into this problem. I speak French poorly, but I've
spent a total of more that 6 months there, spread over a few decades.
The French that I've encountered seemed pleased that I even tried to
speak their language.
I've heard that the failure to understand less-than-perfect French was
part of the French schoolroom teaching method at least as recently as
1914.
Bob C.
Eddy le Couvreur
erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> wrote in article
<erilarloNO-24...@dal-usr3-5-cs-4.win.bright.net>...
> In article <78a6pa$9u6$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Thomas Reich
> <thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
>
> > In rec.travel.europe Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
> > > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which
would
> > > be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
>
> > German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it
very
> > hard to learn.
>
> I've never been able to figure that out. French pronunciation has about
as
> much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
> Furthermore, French is descended from vulgar Latin, a very distant
> relative of the common ancestor of English and German, which isn't very
> far back. Besides, many French speakers refuse to understand French
> unless it's VERY fluent, while most Germans are pretty patient with
anyone
> at least trying to speak German.
>
> Mary
Sorry Mary,
The French too, are interested in anyone trying to make an effort to speak
French. It's just not true that you have to be very fluent in French for
making yourself understood in France. Besides it's not the answer to the
question, is it. The question of what language would be of more use in
Europe, depends on where you think you're going to travel. A basic
knowledge of German would come you in good stead travelling through Eastern
Europe (and of course Germany, Austria and Switzerland), whereas French is
perhaps of more use travelling in Southern Europe, especially Portugal and
Spain (and of course France, Luxembourg, Belgium and Switzerland). French
has the extra advantage that it is useful outside Europe too, for instance
in former French or Belgian colonies in Africa, the Caribean and Asia plus
the fact that French is an official language of many international
organisations like the UN.
Eddy
Mark Brader
> that you want to take is a great motivator. And taking a language
> that wasn't your first choice [but other people persuaded you to take
> it anyway] is not a particularly good motivator.
>
> How large are the average classes in the first and second year courses
> at your school? You will learn much more in a smaller class ...
Good points (including the ones I didn't repeat)!
Here's another. I have spent a lot more time learning French than
German -- yet I can usually understand spoken German if the words are
in my limited vocabulary, whereas I can understand spoken French only
if the person is speaking relatively slowly or if I know what sort of
thing they're going to say. French is one of the fastest-spoken
languages and the words tend to run together. So this aspect of
learning it can be hard, if you want to do well. (Within the context
of high school classes it wasn't a problem, because the teacher did
speak clearly.)
On the other hand, the meaning of prepositions in German baffles me.
It seems as though English and German each have about a dozen common
prepositions, and each preposition in one language seems to translate
about six in the other. I may be exaggerating, but that's how it seems!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "The language should match the users,
msbr...@interlog.com not vice versa" -- Brian W. Kernighan
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Michael Forrest
erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> writes
>In article <78a6pa$9u6$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Thomas Reich
><thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
>
>> In rec.travel.europe Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
>> > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
>> > be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
>
>> German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it very
>> hard to learn.
>
>I've never been able to figure that out. French pronunciation has about as
>much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
(see my previous post).
>Furthermore, French is descended from vulgar Latin, a very distant
>relative of the common ancestor of English and German, which isn't very
>far back.
(In terms of vocabulary it is about 50/50 - eg in food the "eatable"
word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
"Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
> Besides, many French speakers refuse to understand French
>unless it's VERY fluent, while most Germans are pretty patient with anyone
>at least trying to speak German.
>
> Mary
>
Pronunciation, yes, but German grammar is very hard, unusual and
unforgiving to learn (for en English speaker). Just for a start 3
genders instead of two.
As to the French being willing to understand their language spoken
imperfectly, I suspect that it is often a matter of speed of speaking.
It certainly is in the opposite direction and I have noticed when
hearing French spoken by a non-natural speaker of that language they
they, too, go fast, presumably in the hope of getting it over quickly
and minimising embarassment.
But so what really. Either would be a great deal better than neither.
--
Michael Forrest
piper
(erilar) wrote:
>In article <78a6pa$9u6$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Thomas Reich
><thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
>
>> In rec.travel.europe Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
>> > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
>> > be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
>
>> German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it very
>> hard to learn.
>
>I've never been able to figure that out.
Separable verbs; long, unhyphenated compound nouns; participles at the
ends of sentences; no regularity in plural formation.
> French pronunciation has about as
>much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
French is phonetic, too; it's just that some sounds can be spelled
more than one way. Nothing like "bough" and "cough" in English exists
in French, off the top of my head.
>Furthermore, French is descended from vulgar Latin, a very distant
>relative of the common ancestor of English and German, which isn't very
>far back.
But most English vocabulary comes from Latin, either directly or via
Norman French.
> Besides, many French speakers refuse to understand French
>unless it's VERY fluent, while most Germans are pretty patient with anyone
>at least trying to speak German.
Which part of France have you had that experience? I've _NEVER_ had
that experience, I don't think. Well, possibly a couple of times but,
generally, my experience since the first day I arrived in France was
that the French appreciate any sincere attempt to speak their
language.
>Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
>den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
What language is THAT?
:-)
Michael
Thomas Reich
> >Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
> >den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
> What language is THAT?
> :-)
Medieval German, as used by Walther von der Vogelweide (a poet who lived
from about 1170 to about 1228).
--
****************************Thomas Reich*******************************
thre...@stud.uni-sb.de Standard-disclaim-lall:
thr...@jurix.jura.uni-sb.de Alles Meins!! Auch die Meinung!
http://jurix.jura.uni-sb.de/~threich irc: tomtulpe
***********************************************************************
David Hatunen
Frank Kolnick <fkol...@sentex.net> wrote:
>In article <78a691$qb$1...@ultra.sonic.net>
>hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:
>
>> >I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
>> >be of more use throughout Europe?
>>
>>
>> >My choices are French or German.
>>
>> almost as bad as English for misleading spelling. On the other
>> hand, German, as studied in school, has a lot of case endings and
>> conjugations that will drive you up the wall. And the word order
>> can be a bit awkward for English speakers, while French uses word
>> order similar to English.
>
> I have to disagree with this (being in the 4th year of a French degree
> with a minor in German). [...]
> If you're looking for *utility*, I think you'll be better off with a
> working knowledge of both languages than with an in-depth knowledge of
> just one. [...]
Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
knowledge of even one language.
MasonBarge
>much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
You're the second person to say this, and I don't understand it. I have always
found French much more phonetic than English. I mean, English is downright
bizarre and in a class by itself. Bough, bought, through, tough -- go figure.
for...@my-dejanews.com
"Brian R. Byrnes" <bby...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Barb wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which
>
> Both, but if you must choose, then french. That way, when you travel to
> Europe with your rail pass (written in english and french) you can
> understand the conductor who, after reading the pass, speaks to you in
> french. This happened to me one time in Switzerland, but I didn't know
> french. I'm studying both now!
>
> Brian
> --
>
Hi, You're right Brian to advise that both languages should ideally be
studied. However, they are two very distinctive languages and should not be
learnt at the same time as first foreign languages. It can be very confusing
and difficult.
Being a European and speaking several languages, I must say that if your
objective is to travel to Europe, I'd rather recommend French. It is the
official and ONLY language spoken by French people (I'm being ironic!), and
France remains a major touristic destination. It is also a Latin language and
as such, it would be much easier for you if you decide to learn Spanish or
Italian at a later stage. French can also be a useful business language if
you work with France and other French-speaking markets
(Belg.-Lux.-Switz.-Western Africa-Quebec). On the other hand, German is
useful and actually required if you decide to do some business with Germany,
Benelux, Switzerland, Austria and to some extent, Eastern Europe.
Good luck.
Forex99
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
for...@my-dejanews.com
w3...@amsat.org wrote:
> Michael Forrest wrote:
> >
> > On the subject of French dialects - we went to a film being shown in
> > Paris that had a sound track in French but also French sub-titles added
> > in France. Clue - it was made in Quebec.
>
> trip to Quebec for his French classmates. One of his reactions was that
> the Quebecois had invented "French" words for things where the French
> themselves use the English word.
>
What you said is partially true Bob. Indeed, Quebecois haven't invented
French words. They use existing French words to rigorously translate English
words which are otherwise accepted in France as part of the French language.
I don't disagree the initiative which is a defensive one in Quebec. However,
it sounds very weird sometimes to translate English words which are accepted
worldwide because of their language origin: North American... We would
re-write the French language if we had to take into consideration the
Spanish, Arabic and other imported words...
Cheers
Michael Forrest
<mason...@aol.com> writes
>>French pronunciation has about as
>>much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
>
>You're the second person to say this, and I don't understand it. I have always
>found French much more phonetic than English. I mean, English is downright
>bizarre and in a class by itself. Bough, bought, through, tough -- go figure.
>
unpredictable - all of xxxet, xxxey, xxxe-acute "spell" the same ending
sound for instance. But I agree English has it both ways.
--
Michael Forrest
Horst Prillinger
Brader) wrote:
>Here's another. I have spent a lot more time learning French than
>German -- yet I can usually understand spoken German if the words are
>in my limited vocabulary, whereas I can understand spoken French only
>if the person is speaking relatively slowly or if I know what sort of
>thing they're going to say. French is one of the fastest-spoken
>languages and the words tend to run together. So this aspect of
>learning it can be hard, if you want to do well.
Yes, but there are lots of *lovely* dialects in German, which might be
quite incomprehensible for foreigners....
>On the other hand, the meaning of prepositions in German baffles me.
>It seems as though English and German each have about a dozen common
>prepositions, and each preposition in one language seems to translate
>about six in the other. I may be exaggerating, but that's how it seems!
That's absolutely what it's like. I hear it's even worse in Swedish than
it is in German, though.
Regards,
-H.P.
--
The Vienna Subway: http://aardvark.magnet.at/metro/
Public PGP key available from http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/
Horst Prillinger
<ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Pronunciation, yes, but German grammar is very hard, unusual and
>unforgiving to learn (for en English speaker). Just for a start 3
>genders instead of two.
Not mentioning that the gender is completely arbitrary. For example,
"spoon" is masculine, "fork" feminine, and "knife" neuter. You have to
learn the gender along with the vocabulary, or you'll go crazy.
Robert Carpenter
>
> In article <4qHNQEAW...@sonning.demon.co.uk>, Michael Forrest
> <ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Pronunciation, yes, but German grammar is very hard, unusual and
> >unforgiving to learn (for en English speaker). Just for a start 3
> >genders instead of two.
>
> Not mentioning that the gender is completely arbitrary. For example,
> "spoon" is masculine, "fork" feminine, and "knife" neuter. You have to
> learn the gender along with the vocabulary, or you'll go crazy.
But that's true of almost any European language except English. OK, most
limit themselves to two genders.
Frank Kolnick
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:
> In article <36a90...@flint.sentex.net>,
> Frank Kolnick <fkol...@sentex.net> wrote:
> >In article <78a691$qb$1...@ultra.sonic.net>
> >hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:
> >
> >> >I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which would
> >> >be of more use throughout Europe?
...
> > If you're looking for *utility*, I think you'll be better off with a
> > working knowledge of both languages than with an in-depth knowledge of
> > just one. [...]
>
> Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
> will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
> American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
> knowledge of even one language.
I'm sorry, how did I misinterpret the question?
In any case, I'm surprised that he can't get two languages in H.S.
I suppose it depends on the school, but many around here offer at least
two (the obligatory French plus usually German or Italian). I know
several people that came out of that system with the ability to
converse in two languages (not me; wish I had). I'd say it
probably comes down to the competence of the teachers and the
interest of the student. If you're really keen on French, you can
always take an immersion course in Quebec for a few weeks :-)
(I might also venture the theory that once you start to study
a second language, grasping the concepts of a third becomes a
little easier. Maybe he should take Latin :-)
Frank Kolnick,
Software Consultant (QNX, real-time, tech. writing)
Basis Computer Systems Inc.
A. Woodburn
On 26 Jan 1999, Sarah Scheidel wrote:
> Frank Kolnick (fkol...@sentex.net) wrote:
>
> : > Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
> : > will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
> : > American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
> : > knowledge of even one language.
>
> : I'm sorry, how did I misinterpret the question?
> : In any case, I'm surprised that he can't get two languages in H.S.
> : I suppose it depends on the school, but many around here offer at least
> : two (the obligatory French plus usually German or Italian). I know
> : several people that came out of that system with the ability to
> : converse in two languages (not me; wish I had). I'd say it
> : probably comes down to the competence of the teachers and the
> : interest of the student.
>
> Not necessarily. I attended a high school where three languages were
> offered (Spanish, French, and Latin) and all of the teachers were
> super...unfortunately, we had no native speakers, but we had at least 2
> PhDs, and all had lived in a country where the language they taught was
> spoken (well, except for the Latin teacher!). However, learning two
> languages simultaneously is terribly hard, especially when you don't start
> learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
> the brain have basically shut down in most people. I for one have a good
Although a very popular one, this idea of the language-learning center of
the brain shutting down after puberty is still just a theory. There are
many people who also believe that this is more an issue of maintinence of
certian types of learning skills than an actualy physical problem that
makes it harder for adults to learn languages. Another thing to consider
is that most adults are far more self-conscious when trying to learn a
language than your average child, and therefore simply don't practice as
much and make as many mistakes doing so, using these mistakes to learn. I
guess this is just something that each individual has to decide for
his/herself, but I wouldn't discourage any high-school age(or older, or
younger!) student from trying to learn two languages at once. If you put
the time and effort into it you will probably find it very rewarding! And
many people in many countries do this! Living in Finland for a year, I
was amazed that nearly everyone in my class at school (18 year-olds) could
fluently speak Swedish and English in addition to their native Finnish,
and many were working on learning French, German, Italian, or Russian as
well!
Andrea
> ability to learn languages (I have at least a working knowledge of four) but
> have not been terribly successful when I have tried to take classes in two
> of them at the same time. I would get horribly confused with vocabulary,
> not to mention grammatical constructions. And it wasn't a matter of my
> teacher's competency (as I said, they were terrific), and it wasn't a matter
> of my lack of interest (my goal in life is to be conversational in at least
> 3 languages....I can read four now, as I say, but of those, I can only speak
> 2 with any level of fluency). I think that in many cases it comes down to a
> matter of practicality and the capacity of the brain.
>
> YMMV, of course. Some people can do it successfully.
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Lock up your libraries if you like, but there is no gate, no lock, no bolt
> that you can set upon the freedom of my mind" --Virginia Woolf
>
>
Sarah Scheidel
: > Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
: > will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
: > American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
: > knowledge of even one language.
: I'm sorry, how did I misinterpret the question?
: In any case, I'm surprised that he can't get two languages in H.S.
: I suppose it depends on the school, but many around here offer at least
: two (the obligatory French plus usually German or Italian). I know
: several people that came out of that system with the ability to
: converse in two languages (not me; wish I had). I'd say it
: probably comes down to the competence of the teachers and the
: interest of the student.
Not necessarily. I attended a high school where three languages were
offered (Spanish, French, and Latin) and all of the teachers were
super...unfortunately, we had no native speakers, but we had at least 2
PhDs, and all had lived in a country where the language they taught was
spoken (well, except for the Latin teacher!). However, learning two
languages simultaneously is terribly hard, especially when you don't start
learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
the brain have basically shut down in most people. I for one have a good
Sarah Scheidel
: On 26 Jan 1999, Sarah Scheidel wrote:
: > Frank Kolnick (fkol...@sentex.net) wrote:
: >
: > : > Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
: > : > will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
: > : > American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
: > : > knowledge of even one language.
: >
: > : I'm sorry, how did I misinterpret the question?
: > : In any case, I'm surprised that he can't get two languages in H.S.
: > : I suppose it depends on the school, but many around here offer at least
: > : two (the obligatory French plus usually German or Italian). I know
: > : several people that came out of that system with the ability to
: > : converse in two languages (not me; wish I had). I'd say it
: > : probably comes down to the competence of the teachers and the
: > : interest of the student.
: >
: > Not necessarily. I attended a high school where three languages were
: > offered (Spanish, French, and Latin) and all of the teachers were
: > super...unfortunately, we had no native speakers, but we had at least 2
: > PhDs, and all had lived in a country where the language they taught was
: > spoken (well, except for the Latin teacher!). However, learning two
: > languages simultaneously is terribly hard, especially when you don't start
: > learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
: > the brain have basically shut down in most people. I for one have a good
: Although a very popular one, this idea of the language-learning center of
: the brain shutting down after puberty is still just a theory. There are
Well, I suppose that depends on what your background is...and since mine
comes from cognitive psychology, I stand by my theory. :-)
: many people who also believe that this is more an issue of maintinence of
: certian types of learning skills than an actualy physical problem that
: makes it harder for adults to learn languages.
The big issue with this, of course, in the United States, children are often
not taught second languages until junior high school or beyond. So yes, in
a sense, that is true...children who learn a second language at an early age
(say, before the age of 8 or 10) have a much easier time learning third and
fourth and fifth languages when they are older...most likely because their
language mechanism is more practiced.
Another thing to consider
: is that most adults are far more self-conscious when trying to learn a
: language than your average child, and therefore simply don't practice as
: much and make as many mistakes doing so, using these mistakes to learn. I
: guess this is just something that each individual has to decide for
: his/herself, but I wouldn't discourage any high-school age(or older, or
: younger!) student from trying to learn two languages at once.
I was not trying to be discouraging, but rather realistic. It can be
extraordinarily difficult. I can personally attest to that, and as someone
with a background in linguistics, I canlearn languages easier than a lot of
other people. And as I said, your mileage may very on this issue. _Some_
people can learn two or more languages at a time quite easily. However,
those people are few and far between. Of course, the only way of knowing
whether you are one of them is to try...so go for it!
If you put
: the time and effort into it you will probably find it very rewarding! And
: many people in many countries do this! Living in Finland for a year, I
: was amazed that nearly everyone in my class at school (18 year-olds) could
: fluently speak Swedish and English in addition to their native Finnish,
: and many were working on learning French, German, Italian, or Russian as
: well!
However, as I said, they were likely taught their second/third languages
beginning in elementary school, if not earlier. And this has a huge impact
on later ability to learn.
This is getting rather off-topic now, no? :-)
Sarah
Mihaly
> >> In rec.travel.europe Barb <b...@small.edu> wrote:
> >> > I'm trying to choose which language to take in high school. Which
would
> >> > be of more use throughout Europe? My choices are French or German.
> >
> >> German also has a bad reputation among students because many find it
very
> >> hard to learn.
coming back to the original question, french or german, i'd say german.
the language should be of use throughout europe and german is more widely
used (in my opinion), especially in central and eastern europe. in
combination with english as a native language, one would be able to
communicate almost anywhere in europe (exept perhaps france ;-) )
cheers,
Mihaly
Michael Forrest
Prillinger <hpr...@excite.com> writes
>"spoon" is masculine, "fork" feminine, and "knife" neuter. You have to
>learn the gender along with the vocabulary, or you'll go crazy.
>
>
I suspect that most languages that have gender are fairly arbitrary now
as so many words will have arisen long after the gender was related to
living things. In French for instance almost all abstract concepts are
feminine which is hardly representative even if you are over the top in
political correctness.
--
Michael Forrest
MasonBarge
>learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
>the brain have basically shut down in most people
I think that this is more myth than reality. It's a question of time and
concentration more than age. I started learning both Italian and German after
age 40, and I really don't think it was much harder for me at that age than
when I was young.
Learning a language is HARD. It takes most people 20years to truly master
their native language, and five years of concentrated, total-immersion effort
to reach initial fluency. It takes time and concentration and frustration.
Older people aren't so much unable to learn because of age, as unwilling to
take the time and concentration and energy needed. IMHO, of course.
MasonBarge
1) German has cases/declensions, three genders rather than two, and more
difficult word order. French is hard enough. German is quite a bit harder.
2) French is more commonly spoken in the US, probably the #3 language after
English and Spanish.
3) French is the "cultured" foreign language of America. No slight intended
to any other language, but still, the ability to speak French is a common
benchmark of a good liberal arts education.
Michael Forrest
<mason...@aol.com> writes
>This has gotten so complicated. The answer is French.
>
as the vocabulary, particularly verbs. Admittedly I started learning
French at about 4 years old and found it "easy", but the trouble with
German verbs is the vast number of suffixes and prefixes, separable and
inseparable, which make it so easy to say something quite other than
what one wants to say.
Anne Forrest
Frank Kolnick
ss0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Sarah Scheidel) writes:
> Frank Kolnick (fkol...@sentex.net) wrote:
>
> : > Unfortunately, this was not the question. He is in high school and
> : > will not have a realistic option to do this. In fact, in a typical
> : > American high school he will have a tough time getting a working
> : > knowledge of even one language.
>
> : I'm sorry, how did I misinterpret the question?
> : In any case, I'm surprised that he can't get two languages in H.S.
> : I suppose it depends on the school, but many around here offer at least
> : two (the obligatory French plus usually German or Italian). I know
> : several people that came out of that system with the ability to
> : converse in two languages (not me; wish I had). I'd say it
> : probably comes down to the competence of the teachers and the
> : interest of the student.
>
> Not necessarily. I attended a high school where three languages were
> offered (Spanish, French, and Latin) and all of the teachers were
> super...unfortunately, we had no native speakers, but we had at least 2
> PhDs, and all had lived in a country where the language they taught was
> spoken (well, except for the Latin teacher!). However, learning two
> languages simultaneously is terribly hard, especially when you don't start
> learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
> the brain have basically shut down in most people. I for one have a good
> ability to learn languages (I have at least a working knowledge of four) but
> have not been terribly successful when I have tried to take classes in two
> of them at the same time. I would get horribly confused with vocabulary,
> not to mention grammatical constructions. And it wasn't a matter of my
> teacher's competency (as I said, they were terrific), and it wasn't a matter
> of my lack of interest (my goal in life is to be conversational in at least
> 3 languages....I can read four now, as I say, but of those, I can only speak
> 2 with any level of fluency). I think that in many cases it comes down to a
> matter of practicality and the capacity of the brain.
>
> YMMV, of course. Some people can do it successfully.
Well, we're getting off topic (again), but we obviously all have an
an inherent ability to speak a language. I'll grant that learning more
than one at a time might be confusing for some, but several of my
classmates are doing it successfully and the ability of 'average'
Europeans to do it is well-known (and mind-boggling :-)
Prior to my first trip to Europe, I crammed French, German and
Spanish into one year (in addition to my major, which was not
languages at that time). I was in no way fluent, but I knew enough
to be able to read, understand and construct phrases, depending
heavily on a pocket dictionary at times. I didn't find it
particularly confusing; in fact, I felt that learning the grammar
and gender rules of one language made it a lot easier to grasp
them in another. As you say, YMMV, but you don't know until you
try it, and the benefits of even minimal ability are worth the
effort. I think its 'unrealistic' to make a blanket statement like
"He is in high school and will not have a realistic option to do this."
Why discourage him?
Incidentally, I learned my non-native languages *way* after
puberty :-) I would dispute that "the language-learning centers of
the brain have basically shut down". I realize that was a popular
theory, but I believe it has been discredited. Personally, I find it
difficult to find the *time* to study now (at 46, with a job, family,
etc.) but I'm *much* more successful at these course than I ever
was at a younger age.
To get back to the original question, he asked what would be
"more use throughout Europe?". I think it's self-evident that tw
would be more useful than one. He doesn't have to take them
both at the same time, btw.
Frank Kolnick
Michael Forrest <ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> writes:
OTOH, this is closer to the English habit of inserting 'filler'
words, like "come on up", "start off", "grow up" etc. As a result,
it 'feels' (to me) more natural in German. French doesn't have this
concept, which might make it simpler, technically, but also poses
some difficulties for anglophones.
Someone earlier mentioned that German has four
genders compared to three in French, hence German was inherently
more difficult. That's true, but it's also true that you don't
(or at least shouldn't) learn a noun plus its gender ("livre",
"masculine"). Ideally, you'll learn the 'word' as a unit ("un
livre") so that using it correctly becomes automatic. In fact,
this is often necessary, as some words can have both genders,
with a total change in meaning. In a sense, that almost makes the
number of genders irrelevant. I find that learning German verbs is
similar, i.e., you learn patterns of usage, not individual words.
While you *can* go a long way just stringing words together
according to basic rules, this will never make you fluent.
In any case, I'll concede that *both* French and German are hard
to learn. However, I find German less difficult :-)
JKinney
>
> This has gotten so complicated. The answer is French.
>
Hi,
I think you are a bit dated in your assertion that French is the
"cultured foreign langage" in the U.S. Once upon a time, that was
true, but English itself is now the common curency of the world, both
cultured and uncultured. I also doubt that French is more common in the
U.S. than German. While there is some use of French in Louisiana around
New Orleans and in New England near the Quebec border, German is a second
language for lots of folks in the midwest. I'd suggest that someone
trying to decide between studying French or German take a smattering of
each and let that experience be the guide. Some of us find French
easier, while others find German more natural. In reality, if a native
English speaker wants a second language of import, that probably is
neither French nor German. Japanese, Russian, or one of the Chinese
dialects would probably be of more use in the future. Incidentally, I
am an American living in France. I've no bias against the French
language, but it has limitations which I find frustrating. The nice
thing about English is that it has evolved and continues to do so.
Jude Kinney
Wijkelsnuitjes
ss0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Sarah Scheidel) wrote:
However, learning two
> languages simultaneously is terribly hard, especially when you don't start
> learning either till after puberty, when the language-learning centers of
> the brain have basically shut down in most people.
It's common practice in Dutch intermediate schools (students from 12-18
years old) to learn three languages (English, French, German)
simultaneously. Varying depending on the level of education one is taking,
this is obligatory for 2 to 4 years. Myself, I have had 4 years of lessons
in French and English and 3 years of Latin and German in the past 4 years.
For this school year, my fifth, I have dropped German (mainly because of
the huge amounts of literarure that have to be read for the exam).
Thanks to my knowledge of these languages, I have been able to teach
myself Italian to a reasonable degree of fluency, which was quite an
advantage on our school trip to Rome last year. Reading knowledge of
Spanish and to a lesser degree Portugese turned out to be "part of the
bargain" for knowing three other Romance languages.
Currently I'm busy learning Indonesian, the language of the country my
mother was born. It is awful, really. Since Indonesian is in no way
related to any of the other languages I speak, proficiency has to be built
from the ground up. It makes me understand Americans who can't succeed in
learning a second language.
Maarten
Trots lid te zijn van de | Proud to be member of the
----------------------------------------------------
****************** Wijkelsnuitjes ******************
Jennifer Barber
Kolnick) wrote:
> Someone earlier mentioned that German has four
> genders compared to three in French, hence German was inherently
> more difficult. That's true, but it's also true that you don't
> (or at least shouldn't) learn a noun plus its gender ("livre",
> "masculine"). Ideally, you'll learn the 'word' as a unit ("un
> livre") so that using it correctly becomes automatic. In fact,
Which is one of the great things about Russian--in the vast majority of
instances, you can tell the gender simply from the nominative singular form
of the noun, no remembering required. You gotta love a language with no
articles. :) (Either that, or one with *no* gender in the first place,
like Hungarian...but that's got more than enough difficulties--ie, complete
differences from English (and the other Indo-European languages)--to make
up for not having to deal with gender!)
On the question at hand, though, my personal suggestion would be German for
usefulness--but then, I'm not particularly interested in travelling to the
places where the Romance languages are spoken. I've studied both French
(in high school, most of which I've forgotten) and German (some in college,
but mostly on my own--with the result that my passive understanding is
considerably more advanced than my active ability to use the language), and
while I'm of the opinion that French is probably easier, especially as a
first foreign language, I personally prefer German. Incidentally, it's
probably true that French will help with Spanish and Italian, but it's also
the case that being able to understand German has increased my ability to
understand Dutch (which I have never studied).
*shrug* To the original poster: it's probably *best* for you to decide
what parts of Europe you're most interested in at the moment, and choose
based on that, rather than listening to any of us!
jennifer
--
Uwe Kroeger page: http://www.mindspring.com/~jlbarber/kroeger.html
Elisabeth page: http://members.aol.com/jlbarber/eljen.html
"Ein Leben ohne Buecher waer' Tortur!"
--Michael Kunze, "Buecherlied", _Tanz der Vampire_
erilar
(piper) wrote:
> But most English vocabulary comes from Latin, either directly or via
> Norman French.
Blantantly untrue.
Mary
M. A. English
M. A. Germanic Philology
>
> >Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
> >den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
>
> What language is THAT?
Middle High German. Much easier than French.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
erilar
>> Separable verbs; long, unhyphenated compound nouns; participles at the
> ends of sentences; no regularity in plural formation.
mostly regular verbs(none in French)
We have many separable verbs in English; we just don't call them that
in most grammar books
It's not necessary to hyphenate compound nouns in German; that's a
disadvantage????
Plurals are formed quite regularly; it's just that the SMALLEST group
uses the s-plural, which is the largest(but not only) one in English.
> > French pronunciation has about as
> >much relation to spelling as English, while German is pretty phonetic.
>
> French is phonetic, too; it's just that some sounds can be spelled
> more than one way. Nothing like "bough" and "cough" in English exists
> in French, off the top of my head.
Plenty of silent endings and other unpronounced parts of words, though.
Mary again--I'm having trouble with long posts tonight
erilar
<thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
> In rec.travel.europe piper <pi...@interport.net> wrote:
>
> > >Owe wie jamerliche junge liute tuont
> > >den e vil hovelichen ir gemuete stuont!
>
> > What language is THAT?
> > :-)
>
> Medieval German, as used by Walther von der Vogelweide (a poet who lived
> from about 1170 to about 1228).
>
Wow! Someone who recognizes Walther! Ich habe seine Gedichte besonders
gern. "junge liute" habe ich manchmal nicht so gern, wenigstens wenn sie
13 Jahre alt sind--aber das ist eine andere Geschichte;-)
Mary
erilar
> (In terms of vocabulary it is about 50/50 - eg in food the "eatable"
> word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
> "Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
Untrue. That's a very small category.
Pitch and intonation in English and German are very similar.French is
EXTREMELY different here. This is something that is difficult to learn
when one is learning a first foreign language.
> But so what really. Either would be a great deal better than neither.
No argument here. Learning ANY foreign language has many tangible and
intangible advantages. My own first reason was that it's fun.
Mary again
M. A. English
M.A. Germanic Philology
erilar
hpr...@excite.com (Horst Prillinger) wrote:
> Yes, but there are lots of *lovely* dialects in German, which might be
> quite incomprehensible for foreigners....
Most Germans can also speak Hochdeutsch, which I have heard called
"book" or "writing" German, and they can all understand it.
>
> >On the other hand, the meaning of prepositions in German baffles me.
Prepositions don't have "meanings", which is the problem. Prepositional
usage is one of the last things most people master.
Mary
erilar
> Horst Prillinger wrote:
> >
> > In article <4qHNQEAW...@sonning.demon.co.uk>, Michael Forrest
> > <ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Pronunciation, yes, but German grammar is very hard, unusual and
> > >unforgiving to learn (for en English speaker). Just for a start 3
> > >genders instead of two.
> >
> > Not mentioning that the gender is completely arbitrary. For example,
> > "spoon" is masculine, "fork" feminine, and "knife" neuter. You have to
> > learn the gender along with the vocabulary, or you'll go crazy.
>
> But that's true of almost any European language except English. OK, most
> limit themselves to two genders.
And they're all just as arbitrary. There are also languages with more than
two genders.
erilar
<Pine.A41.4.05.990125...@dante04.u.washington.edu>, "A.
Woodburn" <andr...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 1999, Sarah Scheidel wrote:
>
> > Frank Kolnick (fkol...@sentex.net) wrote:
>> Although a very popular one, this idea of the language-learning center of
> the brain shutting down after puberty is still just a theory.
And a pretty silly one at that. What happens as one gets older is that
the habits of the first language get more ingrained. It DOES get harder to
learn a new language, but nothing shuts down in your brain. EVERYTHING is
easier to learn when you're young, especially if it's enjoyable.
> Another thing to consider
> is that most adults are far more self-conscious when trying to learn a
> language than your average child, and therefore simply don't practice as
> much and make as many mistakes doing so, using these mistakes to learn.
Very true.
It IS best not to BEGIN two languages at once. Once you have some basic
work in one language under your belt, THEN you can begin another with less
confusion. I had some German students who began Spanish after 3-4 years of
German and found it quite simple, although the Spanish teacher told me
they had German accents;-) (That was back when we began both languages in
7th grade, a program later destroyed by a monolingual middle school
principal.)
I began studying German in my mid-20's and have become fluent enough to be
mistaken for a native speaker now and again.
erilar
mason...@aol.com (MasonBarge) wrote:
> This has gotten so complicated. The answer is French.
>
> 1) German has cases/declensions, three genders rather than two, and more
> difficult word order. French is hard enough. German is quite a bit harder.
Totally untrue. Matter of motivation.
> 2) French is more commonly spoken in the US, probably the #3 language after
> English and Spanish.
Canada, yes. North America, maybe(because of Quebec. US? You're
making this up.
>
> 3) French is the "cultured" foreign language of America. No slight intended
> to any other language, but still, the ability to speak French is a common
> benchmark of a good liberal arts education.
Pure opinion, promulgated by the French and francophiles.
Miguel Cruz
> 3) French is the "cultured" foreign language of America. No slight intended
> to any other language, but still, the ability to speak French is a common
> benchmark of a good liberal arts education.
This is news to me. I always thought it was the language used by really
annoying people at Frat parties who were trying to pick each other up. When
else does it come up? Are there quizzes at the door when you go to fancy
dress events? Most people in the US tend to speak English.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos, tales, and tips from around the world: http://u.nu
Thomas Reich
> In article <78hsr6$k0n$1...@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Thomas Reich
> <thre...@stud.uni-sb.de> wrote:
> > Medieval German, as used by Walther von der Vogelweide (a poet who lived
> > from about 1170 to about 1228).
> Wow! Someone who recognizes Walther! Ich habe seine Gedichte besonders
> gern. "junge liute" habe ich manchmal nicht so gern, wenigstens wenn sie
> 13 Jahre alt sind--aber das ist eine andere Geschichte;-)
Medieval German literature is studied (briefly) in German High School
"German" classes...
--
****************************Thomas Reich*******************************
thre...@stud.uni-sb.de Standard-disclaim-lall:
thr...@jurix.jura.uni-sb.de Alles Meins!! Auch die Meinung!
http://jurix.jura.uni-sb.de/~threich irc: tomtulpe
***********************************************************************
Michael Forrest
12.win.bright.net>, erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> writes
>> word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
>> "Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
> Untrue. That's a very small category.
>
a bit miffed by being told that something I have said is untrue without
any follow up suggestion as to what might be a better reflection of the
relevant facts). It's not that I never make a mistake - just that I
would like to learn from them.
--
Michael Forrest
MasonBarge
Can't address this direct question, but I will say: the 100 most common words
in English are Anglo-Saxon. There are more Latin-derived words in total, but a
huge proportion of them are words nobody uses in everyday speech. As to
animals, the names tend to be A-S but the adjectives tend to be Latin, so
"cow-bovine".
What has always interested me are pairs of words, one German and one Latin,
that have the same Indo-European root. This was discovered by one of the Grimm
brothers, that German transformed many Indo-European roots at some fairly
distinguishable point (which is sort of hard to pinpoint due to a paucity of
written early German). For instance, "d" became "t" in proto-German. So you
have "tooth" in English, with an Anglo-Saxon root, but "dental" with a French
root -- but they both come from the same ancient Indo-European word.
Michael Forrest
<mason...@aol.com> writes
Interesting - thanks.
--
Michael Forrest
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net (erilar) wrote:
> In article <19990126081316...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> mason...@aol.com (MasonBarge) wrote:
> > 2) French is more commonly spoken in the US, probably the #3 language after
> > English and Spanish.
> Canada, yes. North America, maybe(because of Quebec. US? You're
> making this up.
According to data from the 1990 census, French was 2nd in rank in the top 25
languages, other than English, spoken at home by Americans, after Spanish in
first place (by a rather long lead, there were rather more than ten times as
many speakers of Spanish over 5 years old than speakers of French) and before
German in third place, Italian in fourth, Chinese in fifth (they didn't
explain whether this was Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, or all of the above),
Tagalog in sixth, Polish in 7th (there are rather more Poles in Chicago than
in Warsaw!), Korean, etc.
So I don't think he can be said to be making it up... although he may not
have been aware of the actual numbers.
(Granted things have probably changed since the last census, but I would
guess that it would only be by Korean moving up a bit in the rankings).
I agree with you that German is not signifcantly more difficult to learn than
French, however. Es ist nicht so schwer...
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Robert Carpenter
said that the farm help spoke Anglo-Saxon, while the Nobility spoke a
version of French. Thus:
Farm French Present
Word Word English
Cow Boeuf Beef
Calf Veau Veal
Plum Prune raw=plum, dried for table=prune
Grape Raisin raw=grape, dried for table=raisin
Sheep Mouton Mutton
Pig Porc Pork
Another item: there are many words which end in ...tion with similar
meanings in French and English.
All the time I have right now.....
erilar
<ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <erilarloNO-2601991904410001@dal-usr3-2-cs-
> 12.win.bright.net>, erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> writes
> >In article <4qHNQEAW...@sonning.demon.co.uk>, Michael Forrest
> ><ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> (In terms of vocabulary it is about 50/50 - eg in food the "eatable"
> >> word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
> >> "Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
> > Untrue. That's a very small category.
> >
> If you feel that perhaps you would suggest what the proportion is (I am
> a bit miffed by being told that something I have said is untrue without
> any follow up suggestion as to what might be a better reflection of the
> relevant facts). It's not that I never make a mistake - just that I
> would like to learn from them.
Sorry, I don't have statistics tables at my fingertips(many of my books
and papers are in boxes in an unheated Wisconsin attic as the result of
moving), but 50/50 is so far off that any other linguist(as in serious
student of linguistics) will have the same reaction. This one is a
knee-jerk. I use many of the same examples myself, to demonstrate cultural
dialect differences. I just don't claim inflated percentages for them. You
might be surprised to discover just how Germanic English really is when
you allow for sound changes(especially the Great Vowel shift in English)
and really dig into deep structure.
Mary
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
". . .all fields of study and enquiry, all great Schools, demand human sacrifice. For their primary object is not culture, and their academic uses are not limited in education. Their roots are in the desire for knowledge, and their life is maintained by those who pursue some love or curiosity for its own sake, without reference even to personal improvement." J. R. R. Tolkien
erilar
mason...@aol.com (MasonBarge) wrote:
> What has always interested me are pairs of words, one German and one Latin,
> that have the same Indo-European root. This was discovered by one of
the Grimm
> brothers, that German transformed many Indo-European roots at some fairly
> distinguishable point (which is sort of hard to pinpoint due to a paucity of
> written early German). For instance, "d" became "t" in proto-German. So you
> have "tooth" in English, with an Anglo-Saxon root, but "dental" with a French
> root -- but they both come from the same ancient Indo-European word.
You don't have to go nearly that far back to get English/German pairs,
though, such as pipe/Pfeife, was/war, what?/was? and innumerable others;-)
Sarah Scheidel
: In article <WJi2IRAD...@sonning.demon.co.uk>, Michael Forrest
: <ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: > In article <erilarloNO-2601991904410001@dal-usr3-2-cs-
: > 12.win.bright.net>, erilar <erila...@SPAMwin.bright.net> writes
: > >In article <4qHNQEAW...@sonning.demon.co.uk>, Michael Forrest
: > ><ml...@sonning.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: > >
: > >> (In terms of vocabulary it is about 50/50 - eg in food the "eatable"
: > >> word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
: > >> "Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
: > > Untrue. That's a very small category.
: > >
: > If you feel that perhaps you would suggest what the proportion is (I am
: > a bit miffed by being told that something I have said is untrue without
: > any follow up suggestion as to what might be a better reflection of the
: > relevant facts). It's not that I never make a mistake - just that I
: > would like to learn from them.
: Sorry, I don't have statistics tables at my fingertips(many of my books
: and papers are in boxes in an unheated Wisconsin attic as the result of
: moving), but 50/50 is so far off that any other linguist(as in serious
: student of linguistics) will have the same reaction. This one is a
: knee-jerk. I use many of the same examples myself, to demonstrate cultural
: dialect differences. I just don't claim inflated percentages for them. You
: might be surprised to discover just how Germanic English really is when
: you allow for sound changes(especially the Great Vowel shift in English)
: and really dig into deep structure.
I have in front of me, _Bright's Old English Grammar and Reader_. Here's a
quote:
"Vocabulary counts of present day English have shown that, of the 1000 words
most frequently used, about 83 percent are of old English origin. The
proportion decreases rapidly in the lesss frequent thousands but remains
throughout at about 30 percent despite the large number of non-English words
that have been borrowed down through the centuries." (pp. 3-4)
More specifically, our "function" words (is that what they're called?) are
mainly Germanic/Anglo-Saxon in origin. These include pronouns,
prepositions, and conjunctions. Determiners/articles (for example, "the")
are basically of Old English origin as well, although with the loss of
inflection and a large number of the gender markings over the centuries,
some of the original ones have fallen out of usage. In addition, numerals
and auxilary verbs ("have", etc.) are nearly all of Old English origin.
Hope this helps,
Sarah
--
"Lock up your libraries if you like, but there is no gate, no lock, no bolt
that you can set upon the freedom of my mind" --Virginia Woolf
A. Woodburn
> Mary
Hmm... I would consider myself a serious student of linguistics, and
50/50 doesn't seem THAT far off to me. In my intro linguistics class a
few years ago the text said that just under 40% of the complete vocabulary
of modern English comes from French. What's important to realize, though,
is that the overwhelming majority of the most commonly used words in
English are Germanic in origin... And of course looking at the grammar of
Old English you'd practically think it was German.
Andrea (Junior Linguistics and Germanics major, U. of Washington)
Warren Usui
MasonBarge wrote:
> 1) German has cases/declensions, three genders rather than two, and more
> difficult word order. French is hard enough. German is quite a bit harder.
>
This is off-topic but I studied German in High School. One summer, I worked
at a gas station (back in the old days when they were "service stations"). There
was a chain of fast food places called "Der Wienerschnitzel" back then. One
day, a little old lady drove in for some help and we got into the following
conversation.
She: "Excuse me, but do you know where the nearest die Wienerschnitzel is?"
Me: "Oh. You must mean der Wienershnitzel."
She: "Okay, do you know where the nearest der Wienerschnitzel is?"
Me: "But, in proper German it would be das Wienerschnitzel."
She: "All right. Where is das Wienerschitzel?"
Me: " But you should use the Accusative case. That would be den Wienerschitzel."
She: "Okay. Were's the nearest den Wienerschnitzel!!"
Me: "I have no idea."
The next day, local newspapers had a article about a little old lady who mugged
some gas station attendant.
piper
>>If you feel that perhaps you would suggest what the proportion is
>
>Can't address this direct question, but I will say: the 100 most common words
>in English are Anglo-Saxon. There are more Latin-derived words in total, but a
>huge proportion of them are words nobody uses in everyday speech.
[snip]
Thank you. Someone who agrees with me.
To figure out many words in Romance languages, all you have to do is
figure out how the Latin-derived English word for whatever you want to
say will change its shape in that language. Production
(Eng.)/production (Fr., pronounced different)/produzione (It.).
Michael
piper
(erilar) wrote:
>In article <36ac697b...@news.interport.net>, pi...@interport.net
>(piper) wrote:
>
>> But most English vocabulary comes from Latin, either directly or via
>> Norman French.
>
>Blantantly untrue.
[snip]
Then give me the percentages.
My understanding was that English vocabulary is more than half
Romance, but that the most COMMONLY USED words are more Germanic than
not.
Michael
piper
(erilar) wrote:
>In article <36ac697b...@news.interport.net>, pi...@interport.net
>(piper) wrote:
>
>
>>> Separable verbs; long, unhyphenated compound nouns; participles at the
>> ends of sentences; no regularity in plural formation.
>
> mostly regular verbs(none in French)
A French language that has no regular verbs is one that doesn't exist.
Surely you didn't mean that.
> We have many separable verbs in English; we just don't call them that
>in most grammar books
But we don't separate our verbs the way they do in German. For
example, though we say: " You made that story up," we don't say "You
made the story, while we were talking yesterday about your trip to
Germany, your visits with your friends, and your studies in college,
up."
> It's not necessary to hyphenate compound nouns in German; that's a
>disadvantage????
Of course it is for someone who's trying to understand it! Where do
you find those long, unhyphenated compound nouns in the dictionary?!
> Plurals are formed quite regularly;
[snip]
Is that so? Well, I guess there are 7 or more regular plural
formations, eh?
>> French is phonetic, too; it's just that some sounds can be spelled
>> more than one way. Nothing like "bough" and "cough" in English exists
>> in French, off the top of my head.
> Plenty of silent endings and other unpronounced parts of words, though.
Mostly s at the ends of words and, in Paris, final e.
Michael
Miguel Cruz
>She: "All right. Where is das Wienerschitzel?"
>Me: " But you should use the Accusative case. That would be den Wienerschitzel."
Why shound it be accusative? Isn't it a predicate? Do you say "Wo bist
dich?"
Miguel Cruz
> But we don't separate our verbs the way they do in German. For
> example, though we say: " You made that story up," we don't say "You
> made the story, while we were talking yesterday about your trip to
> Germany, your visits with your friends, and your studies in college,
> up."
I've held out as long as I could. Now it's time to quote from Appendix D
("The Awful German Language") of Mark Twain's wonderful "A Tramp Abroad".
The German language is blistered all over with separable verbs; and the
wider the two portions of one of them are spread apart, the better the
author of the crime is pleased with his performance. A favourite one is
'reiste ab' which means 'departed'. Here is an example which I culled from
a novel and reducted to English --
"The trunks being now ready, he DE- after kissing his mother and sisters,
and once more pressing to his bosom his adored Gretchen, who, dressed in
simple white muslin, with a single tuberose in the ample folds of her rich
brown hair, had tottered feebly down the stairs, still pale from the
terror and excitement of the past evening, but longing to lay her poor
aching head yet once again upon the breast of him whom she loved more
dearly than life itself, PARTED."
Michael Forrest
<ss0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> writes
>: > >> (In terms of vocabulary it is about 50/50 - eg in food the "eatable"
>: > >> word - eg beef - tends to come from the French/Latin and the animal -
>: > >> "Cow" - from the German/Saxon).
>: > > Untrue. That's a very small category.
>: > If you feel that perhaps you would suggest what the proportion isI have in front of me, _Bright's Old English Grammar and Reader_. Here's a
>quote:
>
>"Vocabulary counts of present day English have shown that, of the 1000 words
>most frequently used, about 83 percent are of old English origin. The
>proportion decreases rapidly in the lesss frequent thousands but remains
>throughout at about 30 percent despite the large number of non-English words
>that have been borrowed down through the centuries." (pp. 3-4)
>
>More specifically, our "function" words (is that what they're called?) are
>mainly Germanic/Anglo-Saxon in origin. These include pronouns,
>prepositions, and conjunctions. Determiners/articles (for example, "the")
>are basically of Old English origin as well, although with the loss of
>inflection and a large number of the gender markings over the centuries,
>some of the original ones have fallen out of usage. In addition, numerals
>and auxilary verbs ("have", etc.) are nearly all of Old English origin.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Sarah
>
said. (I was an engineer, not a mathematician - (smiley)).
--
Michael Forrest
Thomas Reich
> Me: "Oh. You must mean der Wienershnitzel."
> She: "Okay, do you know where the nearest der Wienerschnitzel is?"
> Me: "But, in proper German it would be das Wienerschnitzel."
> She: "All right. Where is das Wienerschitzel?"
> Me: "But you should use the Accusative case. That would be den Wienerschitzel."
Sorry, you're wrong. "Wo ist das Wienerschnitzel?" is perfectly correct
German, and it's the nominative case ("Wo ist wer oder was?").
The Accusative singular case of "neutre" words goes with "das" as well ("Wen
oder was?" - "Das Kind/Schnitzel/Brot."). "Den (Wiener)Schnitzel" is _always_
bad German grammar. Even in Dative plural case, it would be "den Schnitzlen"
(mind the final "n") as in "Ich helfe den Schnitzeln" (that sentence is
gramatically correct, but otherwise nonsense).
Any more questions about which language is harder to learn ;-))) ?
Michael Forrest
<aard...@platsol.com> writes
>
>
>MasonBarge wrote:
>
>> 1) German has cases/declensions, three genders rather than two, and more
>> difficult word order. French is hard enough. German is quite a bit harder.
>>
>
>This is off-topic but I studied German in High School. One summer, I worked
>at a gas station (back in the old days when they were "service stations").
>There
>was a chain of fast food places called "Der Wienerschnitzel" back then. One
>day, a little old lady drove in for some help and we got into the following
>conversation.
>
>
>Me: "Oh. You must mean der Wienershnitzel."
>
>She: "Okay, do you know where the nearest der Wienerschnitzel is?"
>
>Me: "But, in proper German it would be das Wienerschnitzel."
>
>She: "All right. Where is das Wienerschitzel?"
>
>Me: " But you should use the Accusative case. That would be den
>Wienerschitzel."
>
>
>Me: "I have no idea."
>
>The next day, local newspapers had a article about a little old lady who mugged
>some gas station attendant.
>
>
>
>
"das", like the nominative. However, as Miguel Cruz points out in
another posting, in this case das Wienerschnitzel should be in the
nominative because it is the subject of the verb "to be". No wonder
German grammar is such a fascinating (or infuriating) subject. Mugging
is a bit extreme - at least that can't happen to me here.
Anne Forrest
MasonBarge
>example, though we say: " You made that story up," we don't say "You
>made the story, while we were talking yesterday about your trip to
>Germany, your visits with your friends, and your studies in college,
>up."
One man's meat is another man's poison. This is my favorite thing about
German. I find it incredibly amusing. It's like a punch line.
There is some similarity in English in subject-verb separation, which most
languages will not tolerate. I remember one sentence in The Scarlet Letter
where Hawthorne wrote over 100 words between the subject and verb. Yes, that
amused me also. One example of this that immediately comes to mind is from the
old Anglican prayer book invitation to confession: "Ye who do truly and earnest
repent you of your sins, and are in love and charity with your neighbor, and
seek to find a new life, following the commandments of God and walking in His
holy ways, draw near with faith, . . . "
Holger Schaefer
>
> Sorry, you're wrong. "Wo ist das Wienerschnitzel?" is perfectly correct
Are you sure that 'Wienerschnitzel' is even a word? I'd prefer 'Wiener
Schnitzel' (as a word, not the food).
--
Holger Schaefer
hsch...@dialup.nacamar.de
hsch...@fh-harz.de
http://www2.fh-harz.de/~hschaefer