Train Travel in Europe

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Dan

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Nov 19, 2006, 12:08:46 PM11/19/06
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All,

I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
class on the Eurostar.

I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".

Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
car for luggage)?

On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
about the number of thieves on trains.

Thanks,
Dan

Donald Newcomb

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Nov 19, 2006, 12:45:56 PM11/19/06
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"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.

Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about here,
not Japan.) Also, in Naples, pay no attention to the signs over the landings
about where the cars will be. I've seen the train come in reversed order and
everyone had to quickly swap ends. Look through the windows to see the seat
numbers and board at the end nearest to your seat.

>Is there
> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?

No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
the door nearest your seat as described above.

Is it obvious
> where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
> car for luggage)?

There's a place for big bags near the door. Small bags go over your head or
under your seat.

> On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
> leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
> restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
> about the number of thieves on trains.

Nothing is 100% safe. There is a snack bar but the food is expensive and not
very good. Get something at the station and bring it with you.

> Thanks,
> Dan

Welcome

--
Donald R. Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net


Mimi

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Nov 19, 2006, 12:55:33 PM11/19/06
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"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Here's a good source with lots of detail about traveling by train in Italy:
www.slowtrav.com/italy/trains/index.htm

I wouldn't assume coach 2 to be the second car from the front. At the head
of the track (in terminal stations) is a plan of the train showing the
location within the train of the different car numbers. Sometimes this is
also marked alongside the track.

Each car has at least one door. Small pieces of luggage are stored overhead,
larger ones either on shelves near the door or between seats.

As for dining on the train, it's fun. If you're worried about your luggage,
bring a light bicycle cable and lock your luggage to the shelf. However,
most of your trips sound fairly short. You might not have time to enjoy a
meal. (I'm assuming you will have to change trains in Rome between Naples
and Florence.)

If you do this again, investigate open jaws tickets -- like into
Florence/Pisa, out of Naples or Rome. Saves you backtracking time. And you
can get them with FF miles.


tim(yet another new home)

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Nov 19, 2006, 1:22:01 PM11/19/06
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"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I almost always take my stuff with me.

But a couple of weeks ago, the carriage was almost empty
and having just left the penultimate station, went to the toilet
leaving my stuff behind.

When I got back, the man two seats away gave me a
bollocking for leaving my potential 'bomb' behind.

tim

B Vaughan

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Nov 19, 2006, 1:23:45 PM11/19/06
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On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote:

>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".

>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?

On the outside of each car is posted the number; the Italian word is
"carrozza". Sometimes they count from the back of train and sometimes
from the front. (This is because there are stations where the train
goes in and backs out, thus changing the direction.) So you will look
for a car with "Carrozza 2" on the outside. You could also go through
the train, but it's much easier to board the train at the right
carriage, especially if you have luggage. On some train platforms, you
will see a sign which has a scheme of the train and shows the
location of the carriages.

The seat numbers are usually easy to see. Ic trains often have
compartments, each with six seats, and in this case the seat numbers
will be on the door. Other trains have an open seating arrangement,
and in this case, the seat numbers will be above the seats, as in an
airplane.

If there is an open seat plan, there is some luggage space above the
seats and a larger luggage storage space at the end of the car. If
there are compartments, the luggage stays in the compartment with you.
There are racks above the seats and space under the seats.

>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.

I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think
thieves are less frequent than in other places, because they can't
really go anywhere with your luggage until the next stop. I generally
leave my bags unattended while I wander through the train. However, I
wouldn't want to swear that you won't have a problem. In my opinion,
the best defense is cheap, beat-up luggage. Some people carry a
bicycle cable to attach their bags to each other, so that it would be
difficult to carry them off. If you want to be cautious, keep an eye
on your bags when the train is arriving in a station. That's the most
vulnerable time.


--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan

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Nov 19, 2006, 1:23:45 PM11/19/06
to
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:45:56 -0600, "Donald Newcomb"
<DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:

>
>"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
>news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>>
>> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
>
>Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
>front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about here,
>not Japan.)

There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the
front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.

>>Is there
>> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?
>
>No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
>the door nearest your seat as described above.

It's not impossible to walk through the cars; I've done it many times.
However, when you're impeded with luggage, it's slow going and the
people behind you might get impatient. It's especially difficult on
the trains with closed compartments. These have a narrow aisle outside
the compartments. When the train is full, the aisles will be occupied
with people who have pulled down the little jump seats in the aisles.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 19, 2006, 3:59:42 PM11/19/06
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B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

[]


> I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think
> thieves are less frequent than in other places, because they can't
> really go anywhere with your luggage until the next stop. I generally
> leave my bags unattended while I wander through the train. However, I
> wouldn't want to swear that you won't have a problem. In my opinion,
> the best defense is cheap, beat-up luggage. Some people carry a
> bicycle cable to attach their bags to each other, so that it would be
> difficult to carry them off. If you want to be cautious, keep an eye
> on your bags when the train is arriving in a station. That's the most
> vulnerable time.

Indeed. A decade ago, my ex had his luggage stolen (including the bag
with his passport) at the main station in Florence. He'd left his
luggage in one car while checking the other to see if there were free
seats. He got back to find it all gone. This was avoidable obviously,
but I suppose it's worth mentioning as a warning to others. BTW, I'm not
suggesting that Italy is more prone to this than other places.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org

Dave Frightens Me

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Nov 19, 2006, 5:12:22 PM11/19/06
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On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote:

>All,
>
>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>class on the Eurostar.
>
>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?

Seat numbers will be easily viewable, although there may well be
someone already sitting there. If you show them your ticket, they will
politely move and let you sit. Luggage goes over your head usually,
and can be a nuiscance if you're a short-ass.

>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.

Frankly I wouldn't eat in the restaurant. I would grab a couple of
take away panini, slices of pizza plus a bottle of water and maybe
some wine.

(you'll sleep nicely after a couple of cups of red!)

Just keep your money somewhere close to you, and if snoozing, wear
your sunglasses. That way theives don't know if you're sleeping or
not.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Giovanni Drogo

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Nov 20, 2006, 5:13:10 AM11/20/06
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> >Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> >second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there

As many said. Car number 2 won't be necessary the second from front. On
ES sets it can be second from front or from end (since car numbers are
fixed, but train set invert the direction they run at a terminus). On
other trains you might even expect car numbers not to be sequential (but
this is more for night trains).

Seats numbers are viewable, but sometimes I found the arrangement is not
sequential or obvious (in open space ES cars ... it is strictly
sequential in older compartment IC cars ... in this case 53 and 54 would
be in compartment 5.

Usually cars have doors at either end, provided they both work.
Otherwise you can alight in the neighbouring car and move back or
forward. If you are very late, jump in anywhere and then move along the
train (a bit painful, but better than missing it).

As already said in many big stations there are displays with the
composition of the trains (usually somewhere along the platforms similar
to the timetables). They show the arrangement of the train with the car
numbers and position with respect to a lettered reference ABCDEF. The
positions A,B,C etc. are marked along the platform (white cubes with
blue letters).

> If there is an open seat plan, there is some luggage space above the
> seats and a larger luggage storage space at the end of the car. If

There is usually also luggage space between the backs of adjacent seats.
That's usually the best space if the luggage is not too bulky, but heavy
enough to be painful to be lifted overhead.

> >On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
> >leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the

> I have never had a problem with my luggage on the train. I think

I never had problems as well, although I'm suspicious. I generally watch
my luggage during stops at stations. If I travel for business, my
luggage is light, so I can take it with me at the restaurant. I'm afraid
you cannot "take turns" between yourselves easily on italian trains.
Unlike other places (like e.g. Germany or Switzerland) where the
restaurant service is continuously flowing, the typical arrangement here
for proper restaurant cars is to have shifts. You should reserve as soon
as you board.

This is one of the few differences between 1st and 2nd class. A
conductor passes to collect reservations, and he passes first in the 1st
class. If there are no places left, sometimes he does not even pass in
2nd class. So I learned, if I want to be sure to eat, to reserve as soon
as I board. On a trip like Rome-Milan e.g. there could be two shifts,
one would occur on the Rome-Florence stretch (no stop, so one can trust
to leave baggage unattended) and another later on.

Personally when I used to use restaurant service a lot, this was mainly
for time reasons (leaving Rome at 7pm after a meeting day), but I found
that the price was not worth the food (usually a fixed menu with a
choice of two courses) and the service. Much better in older times.

Some other trains have self-service cars serving lighter (but hot)
meals, and you can get there any time. It should always be possible to
get snacks, sandwiches, coffee.

If you want really good food, it's better to bring it with you.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
nos...@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

Donald Newcomb

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Nov 20, 2006, 6:08:40 AM11/20/06
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"B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:8t71m2pafhnj1qn1k...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 11:45:56 -0600, "Donald Newcomb"
> <DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net> wrote in message
> >news:1163956126.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
> >> I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
> >> says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".
> >>
> >> Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
> >> second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54.
> >
> >Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from
the
> >front or the second from the end. (This is Italy we are talking about
here,
> >not Japan.)
>
> There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the
> front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
> Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
> station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
> pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.

The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there will be
a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. If you stand in that
queue the correct door for your coach will open right in front of you when
the train stops. In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be
but it may actually be at the other end of the train.

> >>Is there
> >> an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
> >> walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
> >> that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable?
> >
> >No that would be impossible. There are doors at each end of each car. Use
> >the door nearest your seat as described above.
>
> It's not impossible to walk through the cars; I've done it many times.
> However, when you're impeded with luggage, it's slow going and the
> people behind you might get impatient. It's especially difficult on
> the trains with closed compartments. These have a narrow aisle outside
> the compartments. When the train is full, the aisles will be occupied
> with people who have pulled down the little jump seats in the aisles.

"Impossible" was probably a poor choice of words. "Extremely difficult"
might have been better. Not if you are the only one getting on or off, mind
you, but that's not usually the case. I find boarding Italian trains to be
an "interesting" experience. Finding the easiest way to do it was a minor
study on one trip to Italy.

Giovanni Drogo

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Nov 20, 2006, 9:37:54 AM11/20/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Donald Newcomb wrote:

> The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there

> will be a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. [...]

> In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be but it may
> actually be at the other end of the train.

There are NO "signs on the platform" (if you mean the platform FLOOR) in
Italy nor anywhere else in Europe I'm aware of. What there will be in
major stations in Italy, and more systematically elsewhere e.g. in
Germany are letters indicating platform SECTIONS (A/B/C/D/E/F). They
won't be painted on the floor, but hanging from the ceiling or
protruding from poles or pillars.

Then there will be a display (not systematically in Italy, depends on
station and Compartimento (which is not a train compartment, but a
regional railway "district"), more systematically in Germany where it is
called Wagenstandanzeiger) telling which car number goes in which
sections.

Car numbers may not be sequential, it is likely to be sequential for
fixed trainsets, but variable for long distance night trains often
arranged with through cars connected somewhere en route. I've seen
trains with car # 253 but it did not have 253 cars ! :-)

In most places car numbers are written on a sticker, in some cases on a
display (LCD or luminous). For instance in Denmakr on IC3 these displays
are reprogrammable. I remember I had a booking for a given car, and when
the train arrived there was no car with such number. Passengers got off,
then doors were closed, displays were blanked out with some notice
saying they were cleaning the cars, then reprogrammed with new (non
sequential) numbers (for some reasons the numbers seemed to refer to
half-car sections on either sides of the doors), and only then doors
opened again. This occurred at the terminal station of the train.

John Bermont

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Nov 20, 2006, 10:08:32 AM11/20/06
to

Dan,

For an illustrated introduction to using the trains in Europe see my
chapter on trains at
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap17/rail.htm. There are four parts
on line because the chapter is so big. Click at the end of each part to
continue.

As shown in some of my photos, the car number will be posted on each
car, sometimes on the door and sometimes on the car next to the door.
Coach in Italian is carrozza. The seat numbers of seats nearest that
door will also be painted on the side of the car.

My only experience with theft on a train was on an overnighter from
Venice to Vienna, but it can happen anywhere. I have met people who
have lost their goods in stations and on trains throughout Europe.
NEVER leave valuables in your luggage. Always stay within arm's reach
of your luggage when the train is in a station. It is not necessary to
have a ticket to board a train and the doors are always open when the
train is in a station. Criminals can get on board, pick out their new
luggage, and then hop off with it before the train departs.

John Bermont
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/

B Vaughan

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Nov 20, 2006, 12:00:30 PM11/20/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 05:08:40 -0600, "Donald Newcomb"
<DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote:

>"B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:8t71m2pafhnj1qn1k...@4ax.com...

>> There's a simple reason why the cars are sometimes numbered from the


>> front and sometimes from the rear, and it has nothing to do with the
>> Italian soul. In stations such as Rome Termini, the tracks end at the
>> station. The train pulls in with the cars numbered from the front and
>> pulls out with the cars numbered from the rear.
>
>The comparison with Japan was that in large Japanese stations there will be
>a queue for a particular coach painted on the platform. If you stand in that
>queue the correct door for your coach will open right in front of you when
>the train stops. In Italy there may be a sign saying where a coach will be
>but it may actually be at the other end of the train.

That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.

Hatunen

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Nov 20, 2006, 12:50:02 PM11/20/06
to
On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
wrote:

>All,


>
>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>class on the Eurostar.

Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.

The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
(channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
don't reserve you a specific seat at all).

>I have posted previously in this group and gotten many good responses.
>I just have one additional question. For the first leg of my trip, it
>says our assigned seats are "Coach 2: 53 -, 54".

I can't spak for Italian trains, but other trains will show the
carriage number and possible the seating range of each car at the
doorways. Also, there should be a diagram posted on a board
somewhere showing the composition of the train, a sort of map of
the train. Take a look at this and find your car. Unfortunately,
it is not always clear which way the train will be heading, so as
the train comes in grab a look at a couple of car numbers and
make sure which end is which.

>Correct me if I am wrong, but I take this to mean I need to board the
>second train car from the front and look for seats 53 and 54. Is there
>an entrance for each train car or do you board the first car and keep
>walking until you are in the second car (are they even connected for
>that matter)? Are the seat numbers easily viewable? Is it obvious
>where the luggage is to be stored (by the seat, or is there a seperate
>car for luggage)?

Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off. Bag
steaing is pretty much a snatch and run operation; impede this in
any way and your bags are likely to be safe. We carry a chain
type bicycle lock and simply run it through our baggage handles
and thought he luggage rack. I consider this a bit paranoid on
our part, but it's so easy, why take the chance?

There are also overhead racks on almost all trains. Unlike
airplanes, they can sometimes take a pretty hefty bag.

Incidentally, trains like Eurostar have half the seats facing
forward and half backward.

>On the Eurostar, I noticed there is a restaurant car. Is it safe to
>leave our luggage behind, or should we take turns going to the
>restaurant? I mean no disrespect, but I have heard mixed opinions
>about the number of thieves on trains.

Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
it's more like a snack car. It's only a three hour trip, and a
meal at a station restaurant at either end is likely to be more
satisfying. I've been on Eurostar four times, and they always had
a snack trolley like on an airplane, but it can be damn slow
getting to you.

************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 20, 2006, 3:49:40 PM11/20/06
to
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:

> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
> wrote:
>
> >All,
> >
> >I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
> >Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
> >trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
> >The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
> >class on the Eurostar.
>
> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.

Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now, unless
there are some operators which charge that I don't know about.

>
> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).

The exception also includes online prebooked tickets on long distance UK
services which include the seat reservation as well as the ticket. That
said, I often choose to sit elsewhere, and providing the train isn't
full, it doesn't create problems. The annoying thing is that you can't
select the kind of seat you want (at least on thetrainline.com, maybe
you can at the station or on the phone) so I might want a seat with a
table for the laptop etc.

Lennart Petersen

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Nov 20, 2006, 3:49:54 PM11/20/06
to

"Hatunen" <hat...@cox.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:qhp3m25a824ptgv9e...@4ax.com...

----------
O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
decent dining car providing full meals.


David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 20, 2006, 3:54:11 PM11/20/06
to
Lennart Petersen <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote:

[]


> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
> decent dining car providing full meals.

Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.

Message has been deleted

B Vaughan

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Nov 20, 2006, 4:47:29 PM11/20/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:50:02 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:

>On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>wrote:
>>

>>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>>class on the Eurostar.
>
>Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.

In the case of Eurostar Italia and ICPlus trains, the ticket price
includes a (mandatory) reservation, so I don't think he's confused.

>Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
>like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
>end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
>end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
>pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off.

I assume you're speaking of the Eurostar that goes under the English
Channel? Since the original poster mentioned a trip wholly within
Italy, he surely means Eurostar Italia.

B Vaughan

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Nov 20, 2006, 4:49:44 PM11/20/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:54:11 +0000,
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of

the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

>Lennart Petersen <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>[]
>> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
>> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
>> decent dining car providing full meals.
>
>Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
>Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
>bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
>train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.

I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
so many other things.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

unread,
Nov 20, 2006, 4:54:56 PM11/20/06
to
B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:54:11 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Lennart Petersen <lennart....@swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> >[]
> >> O.p is talking about Italy, and no doubt he have booked Eurostar Italia,
> >> not to be confused with the channel trains. Eurostar Italia includes a
> >> decent dining car providing full meals.
> >
> >Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> >Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> >bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> >train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
>
> I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
> the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
> they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
> so many other things.

UK trains have had horrible instant for as long as I remember. The
Virgin trains have machines which grind beans then brew, etc., which is
an improvement, but it's not as good as an espresso or a good filter
coffee IMO. Any big station here has several outlets were you can get a
decent coffee, so I usually 'stock up' before getting on board, but it's
tougher for the long journeys...

Donald Newcomb

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Nov 20, 2006, 6:44:46 PM11/20/06
to
"B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bmb3m25n47gj9susf...@4ax.com...

> That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
> the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.

Where I ran into this is the undergound station in Naples while waiting for
the EuroStar.
There were signs. I don't recall if they were hanging from the cieling or on
the floor but when the train came in everyone waiting had to grab their bags
and swap ends.

The Reid

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Nov 21, 2006, 5:30:18 AM11/21/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,

this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

> Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
>Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now,

I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sims "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 21, 2006, 5:41:09 AM11/21/06
to
The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> > Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
> >
> >Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now,
>
> I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)

It's been a while since I didn't have one, but I don't travel during
rush hour if I can avoid it. On the local commuter services, you can't
book seats. However there are some routes which combine long distance
with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!

Giovanni Drogo

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Nov 21, 2006, 5:55:26 AM11/21/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006, Hatunen wrote:

> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.

The OP was talking about Italy. Here there are trains where reservation
is not possible (local, regional, interregional), trains with compulsory
reservation (ES), trains with optional reservations (IC).



> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket

The "Eurostar" the OP was referring to was an italian ES. Since a few
years that sort of train is a global price, compulsory reservation
train, so you get only one ticket (and since it is linked to a train do
not have to stamp it). For other trains you can get separately the
ticket and the reservation. A relatively new thing are IC Plus, which
are also compulsory reservation. The reservation is 1 euro more than the
IC fare, and is included in the same ticket. If you are going to travel
from A to B with intermediate changes, you'd better specify to the clerk
which trains you intend to take, and you are likely to receive not a
single ticket, but a bunch of tickets with the different fares.

Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.

Probably a bit so also elsewhere. I am not so up-to-date on Germany,
once IC tickets used to be made of a standard fare ticket, and a
supplement (Zuschlag, unlike italian supplements which varied with
distance, this was a fixed amount), which included reservation (and also
free reservation on any connecting IC). Later they mantained the
supplement, but reservation was optional and paid extra. What is the
situation now ?

> doorways. Also, there should be a diagram posted on a board
> somewhere showing the composition of the train, a sort of map of
> the train. Take a look at this and find your car. Unfortunately,
> it is not always clear which way the train will be heading, so as

Usually the diagrams on the platforms show train mockups with the engine
drawn in the real direction it will be travelling.

> Incidentally, trains like Eurostar have half the seats facing
> forward and half backward.

Not true for italian ES, nor the typical ETR500 trainsets, nor the
ETR460 or ETR470 if you mean one half of the car has seats all facing
forward (but each seat facing the next seat back) and the other half
facing backward. I wish they were. Instead seats are arranged in groups
of 4, facing each other (like a mini compartment with no walls), and
with a fixed table in the middle ... which is a pain in the ... knees
:-)

> Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
> it's more like a snack car. It's only a three hour trip, and a

As I said already, snack cars may be available on some IC trains, and
perhaps on older ETR450 sets, but ETR460/70/500 will have a proper
restaurant car operated with fixed shifts. For me price not worth the
value.

About coffee, these cars should have a bar section with a real espresso
machine, so coffee will be at normal italian bar standards. The coffee
of the snack trolleys going along the train instead will be at normal
airline standard (bleah).

ALAN HARRISON

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Nov 21, 2006, 7:54:36 AM11/21/06
to

"Donald Newcomb" <DRNe...@NOT.attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:45623f3b@kcnews01...

> "B Vaughan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:bmb3m25n47gj9susf...@4ax.com...
>> That is not my experience. When I find a sign, it's accurate. They put
>> the sign up precisely because of the problem with changing direction.
>
> Where I ran into this is the undergound station in Naples while waiting
> for
> the EuroStar.
> There were signs. I don't recall if they were hanging from the cieling or
> on
> the floor but when the train came in everyone waiting had to grab their
> bags
> and swap ends.

Trains can run in reverse formation for a number of reasons. (e.g.
Diversions sometimes cause trains to arrive at Birmingham New Street,
busiest station in the UK outside London, from the "wrong" end, and that set
may then spend some time with its first class carriages at the further end
from London, until it is diverted again, or can be conveniently reversed.)

On holiday in Italy a few months ago, I noticed that the announvements at
the local station (Desenzano on the Milan-Venice line), catered for this,
with a recorded female voice giving most of the train imfo, and then a male
(real) voice announcing where the first class cars would be.

Alan Harrison


The Reid

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Nov 21, 2006, 7:56:37 AM11/21/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:41:09 +0000,

this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

>> I'd like a seat, let alone a booked one! :-)
>
>It's been a while since I didn't have one, but I don't travel during
>rush hour if I can avoid it.

nice life if you can get it

>On the local commuter services, you can't
>book seats.

this is true!

>However there are some routes which combine long distance
>with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
>Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
>grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!

so you get on the local train and tell the commuters to "get out of my
seat, Jhimmy"?

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 21, 2006, 7:58:34 AM11/21/06
to
The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:41:09 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

[]


> >However there are some routes which combine long distance
> >with local travel- Birmingham to Wolverhampton (and then on to
> >Manchester, Glasgow etc.) is one that comes to mind, and I've been
> >grateful of my reservations on those trains sometimes!
>
> so you get on the local train and tell the commuters to "get out of my
> seat, Jhimmy"?

Yes, but it's obvious it is reserved- never had a problem actually.

Markku Grönroos

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:00:52 AM11/21/06
to

"ALAN HARRISON" <alanth...@btopenworld.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:iaednboRUee...@bt.com...

>
>
> On holiday in Italy a few months ago, I noticed that the announvements at
> the local station (Desenzano on the Milan-Venice line), catered for this,
> with a recorded female voice giving most of the train imfo, and then a
> male (real) voice announcing where the first class cars would be.
>
Boarding a train in Italy seems to be very complex a process.


David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:08:19 AM11/21/06
to
Markku Grönroos <kur...@hassuserveri.fi> wrote:

Depends how much voddy you've gone through on the platform.

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:35:12 AM11/21/06
to
Donald Newcomb wrote:

> Actually you need to board coach #2. This could be the second car from the
> front or the second from the end.

It could also be somewhere else. On some trains, especially night
trains, coaches can be out of order. It could also be missing, but
that's a lot less likely, and if it does happen find the guard and ask
what to do as it varies by whether the train has compulsory reservation
or not.

> No that would be impossible.

But you can usually walk through if you need to. That said, some high
speed trains that run in pairs (e.g. double Virgin Voyagers in the
UK,double ICE3s in Germany) are made of two units that you can't.

Neil

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:43:23 AM11/21/06
to
Giovanni Drogo wrote:

> Seats numbers are viewable, but sometimes I found the arrangement is not
> sequential or obvious (in open space ES cars ... it is strictly
> sequential in older compartment IC cars ... in this case 53 and 54 would
> be in compartment 5.

And now for something I've always wondered - why *aren't* they
sequential in airline and table-seated open cars in mainland Europe?

I've always suspected it was to do with two rows creating a virtual
compartment, so the same numbers would give the same type of seat
(window, middle, aisle) and that consecutive numbers would be opposite
one another in the compartment, but that isn't always the case.

What *is* it based on?

Neil

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:45:47 AM11/21/06
to
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
deansgate wrote:

> Indeed. A decade ago, my ex had his luggage stolen (including the bag
> with his passport)

I hear about this a lot. When I travel, my passport is almost always
kept in a closable pocket or the hotel safe. Why do people leave them
lying around?

Neil

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:49:47 AM11/21/06
to
Hatunen wrote:

> Using the restaurant car on Eurostar can be a huge hassle. And
> it's more like a snack car.

Careful - I think the OP may be referring to Eurostar Italia, which has
nothing to do with the under-Channel variety.

As for the Channel-crossing Eurostar, the best time to go to the buffet
is when you're in the tunnel, as an awful lot of people seem to think
you can't open those yellow safety doors; you can!

Neil

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:55:24 AM11/21/06
to
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
deansgate wrote:

> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.

Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.

Neil

Neil Williams

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Nov 21, 2006, 8:56:32 AM11/21/06
to
B Vaughan wrote:

> I've had some really awful cold Nescafé stuff on Italian trains. On
> the other hand, when I lived in the Netherlands (20 years ago now)
> they also served a decent filtered coffee. Maybe that's changed like
> so many other things.

Yep. No on-train catering in .nl any more, except a miserly trolley
service on the Internationale Treinen to Brussels, and the Thalys
buffet.

Neil

Message has been deleted

B Vaughan

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Nov 21, 2006, 11:11:17 AM11/21/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
<dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:

>Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.

It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.

>About coffee, these cars should have a bar section with a real espresso
>machine, so coffee will be at normal italian bar standards. The coffee
>of the snack trolleys going along the train instead will be at normal
>airline standard (bleah).

The coffee on the trolleys is even worse than airline coffee. At least
the latter is hot.

Not all Eurostar trains have restaurant cars. Some don't even have a
snack car.

B Vaughan

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Nov 21, 2006, 11:11:18 AM11/21/06
to
On 21 Nov 2006 05:55:24 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?

I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea. I suppose I can't
take that on a plane any more.

B Vaughan

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Nov 21, 2006, 11:11:17 AM11/21/06
to
On 21 Nov 2006 05:56:32 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>B Vaughan wrote:

When I was in the Netherlands, the trolley prepared you a nice
filtered coffee: a plastic cup with a little filter apparatus atop it,
containing a decent coffee. They poured the hot water into the filter.

Martin Bienwald

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Nov 21, 2006, 11:20:43 AM11/21/06
to
B Vaughan wrote:

> I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> on a train.

The tea served in DB restaurant cars isn't that bad IMHO. (Their coffee is
drinkable, too, but not as good as the coffee in Italian restaurant cars.)

> I suppose I can't take that on a plane any more.

Lufthansa served surprisingly good tea last year.

... Martin

B Vaughan

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Nov 21, 2006, 12:58:15 PM11/21/06
to

I like my tea strong... really strong.

Message has been deleted

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 21, 2006, 3:45:23 PM11/21/06
to
Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> wrote:

Because they're not thinking. You snipped the bit where I noted that
this was all avoidable.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 21, 2006, 4:04:46 PM11/21/06
to
B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
> <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
>
> It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
> are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.

Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
subsidised to some extent- surprisingly. Italians seem to love their
cars (and vile noisy motorbikes) as much as everyone else, alas- so
expect less public transport, and more, uh, cars in the future. No one
really cares...

That said, the 'ever changing mess' of fares here has its advantages. I
have to go to London tomorrow and my ticket cost £18 return (360 miles
total), which would surely be OK by Italian standards too? Ten times
less than an open peak return mind you... :(

Otter

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Nov 21, 2006, 7:14:47 PM11/21/06
to

"Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164116603.7...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I had to pick up some family at Rome airport, and took the train from
Termini. It was the usual train, and there were a lot of others making the
trip. There was a unlit train nearby. At the last moment, they decided that
the train was not going, but the train nearby was, in the very near future.
Everyone got off and onto the now lit train.

Someone asked (an American, of course) why that had happened.

The answer, of course, was that there doesn't have to be a reason.


Otter

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Nov 21, 2006, 7:18:24 PM11/21/06
to

"Magda" <chris...@hey.eu> wrote in message
news:p2g6m2133v8644s2v...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:58:15 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, B
> Vaughan<m...@privacy.net>
> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
>
> ... On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:20:43 +0000 (UTC), Martin Bienwald
> ... <martin....@gmx.de> wrote:
> ...
> ... >B Vaughan wrote:
> ... >
> ... >> I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of
> tea
> ... >> on a train.
> ... >
> ... >The tea served in DB restaurant cars isn't that bad IMHO. (Their
> coffee is
> ... >drinkable, too, but not as good as the coffee in Italian restaurant
> cars.)
> ... >
> ... >> I suppose I can't take that on a plane any more.
> ... >
> ... >Lufthansa served surprisingly good tea last year.
> ...
> ... I like my tea strong... really strong.
>
> Russian tea is made for you.

Served with the traditional surly expression?


David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

unread,
Nov 21, 2006, 7:23:07 PM11/21/06
to
B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> On 21 Nov 2006 05:55:24 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
> >deansgate wrote:
> >
> >> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
> >> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
> >> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
> >> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
> >
> >Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
> >such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
> >machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
> >stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.
>
> Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?

No. The machine Neil is talking about automatically grinds the beans,
then brews them- no human interaction. It's just not the same as an
espresso- no doubt someone can explain why. A similar machine exists in
the hotel dining room in Barcelona where I have breakfast every second
week at the moment. The rest of the breakfast offerings are fine (apart
from the watery "juice") but the coffee is terrible. I usually have a
delicious "solo" later on in a nearby cafe...

The Reid

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Nov 22, 2006, 3:54:22 AM11/22/06
to
On 21 Nov 2006 05:45:47 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Why do people leave them
>lying around?

why do people vote for Bush, have unprotected sex, believe salesmen?

The Reid

unread,
Nov 22, 2006, 3:54:22 AM11/22/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
>on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
>tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
>undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.

Am I alone in not much caring? I'm a bit of a foodie but all this
stuff about coffee and tea on trains goes over my head, I can live
with instant on a train and not worry. I'm more worried about the
train arriving, lack of seats, chewing gum and the great unwashed.

The FT had a big article about tea the other day, how teabags were the
work of the devil. so we did a test (my wife has a very good palette
and can tell producers what herbs and spices are in thier products)
between Waitrose Kenya teabags and leaves, no difference.
I think , as with wine, a load of old bollocks gets talked about
drinks for some reason. I find much more difference between frozen NZ
lamb and Herdwicke mutton, (for instance) than two indistinquishable
wines or beers.

<space left for some condescending tosser to ponificate>
(comment should begin "the discerning realise...." "dont you know..."
or similar).
.
.
.
.

The Reid

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Nov 22, 2006, 3:54:22 AM11/22/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of

the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

>Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
>subsidised to some extent- surprisingly.

Surprisingly? Most PT runs on subsidy, otherwise it wouldn't exist.
Not saying its not a good thing, but its an economic fact of life.

Dave Frightens Me

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Nov 22, 2006, 4:34:10 AM11/22/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 21 Nov 2006 05:55:24 -0800, "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>>deansgate wrote:
>>
>>> Does it provide decent coffee? I haven't been on a train anywhere in
>>> Europe which did, though I'd guess Italy might be one of the better
>>> bets. (What's so hard about it?) That said, the coffee I bought on a
>>> train leaving Udine a few months ago was execrable.
>>
>>Most of the problem is because they try to do too much. There is no
>>such thing as a good cup of coffee from an integrated bean-to-cup
>>machine, or not that I've ever experienced. Train companies should
>>stick to filter (preferably) and instant, or I'm having a cup of tea.
>
>Isn't an espresso machine an integrated bean-to-cup machine?
>
>I can't abide instant coffee,

Niether can I with one big exception. There's a Swiss brand of instant
call Voncoré which is rather good. Not really like freshly brewed
coffee, but with a nice flavour anyway.

Sadly it's not available outside of Switzerland.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Dave Frightens Me

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Nov 22, 2006, 4:38:00 AM11/22/06
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of

the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

>B Vaughan <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:55:26 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
>> <dr...@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >Italian train fares are an ever changing mess.
>>
>> It seems they are going to be raised substantially in 2007. Since they
>> are among the lowest in western Europe, I suppose that's inevitable.
>
>Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
>subsidised to some extent- surprisingly. Italians seem to love their
>cars (and vile noisy motorbikes) as much as everyone else, alas- so
>expect less public transport, and more, uh, cars in the future. No one
>really cares...

Most motorbikes are actually scooters in Italy, and they make little
noise, except (ironically) for the low powered 50cc ones.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 22, 2006, 12:48:06 PM11/22/06
to

Little noise might be relative then, because I find them annoying.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

unread,
Nov 22, 2006, 12:48:06 PM11/22/06
to
The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:04:46 +0000,
> this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >Probably. Even in the UK, which has high fares, they are mostly
> >subsidised to some extent- surprisingly.
>
> Surprisingly?

Given the high fares.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

unread,
Nov 22, 2006, 12:48:06 PM11/22/06
to
The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> >on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
> >tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is consistently
> >undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.
>
> Am I alone in not much caring?

You're probably not alone, but other people do care. Manchester
Piccadilly must have half a dozen outlets serving espresso, and at 8am
this morning, there were long lines at all of them. Many of the people
on my train this morning took coffee on with them. I had to make do with
the train coffee, which admittedly is better than it used to be, but
still isn't very good. I had time for a good coffee in a sandwich bar
after arriving (most of these now will have at least an espresso bar) so
it worked out fine! :)

> I'm a bit of a foodie but all this
> stuff about coffee and tea on trains goes over my head, I can live
> with instant on a train and not worry. I'm more worried about the
> train arriving, lack of seats, chewing gum and the great unwashed.

I worry about it, because on the vast majority of my train journeys, a
lot of which are over 2 hours, I'm not concerned by punctuality, lack of
seats, chewing gum or the, uh, 'great unwashed.' I'll let you worry
about them.

Hatunen

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Nov 22, 2006, 12:56:29 PM11/22/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,

this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_
chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >All,
>> >
>> >I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>> >Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>> >trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>> >The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>> >class on the Eurostar.
>>
>> Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>> ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>> your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>> reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>> no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>
>Not in the UK they don't. They've been free for a while now, unless
>there are some operators which charge that I don't know about.
>
>>
>> The exception is certain special trains, including the Eurostar
>> (channel tunnel), which combine the seat reservation and ticket
>> together like most airlines (of course, these days some airlines
>> don't reserve you a specific seat at all).
>
>The exception also includes online prebooked tickets on long distance UK
>services which include the seat reservation as well as the ticket. That
>said, I often choose to sit elsewhere, and providing the train isn't
>full, it doesn't create problems. The annoying thing is that you can't
>select the kind of seat you want (at least on thetrainline.com, maybe
>you can at the station or on the phone) so I might want a seat with a
>table for the laptop etc.

UK rail service being somewhat abberant compared with continental
service, not least due to the effects of privatization, I hereby
issue a disclaimer that none of my comments includes UK rail,
should anyone consider the UK to be "European".

************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen

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Nov 22, 2006, 12:59:02 PM11/22/06
to
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:47:29 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:50:02 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On 19 Nov 2006 09:08:46 -0800, "Dan" <dan_h...@hailmail.net>
>>wrote:
>>>

>>>I will be travelling by train next week from Rome to Naples, to
>>>Florence, then back to Rome. This will be my first experience with
>>>trains. I have reserved my seats on each train (ticketless option).
>>>The first is an IC Plus train (first class). The other two are second
>>>class on the Eurostar.
>>
>>Be careful with your terminology. "Reservation" does not mean a
>>ticket like it does for an airline. In general, the ticket is
>>your fare, and the reservation, which is not always necessary,
>>reserves you a specific seat. And on some local trains there are
>>no seat reservations. Seat reservations cost a few bucks.
>

>In the case of Eurostar Italia and ICPlus trains, the ticket price
>includes a (mandatory) reservation, so I don't think he's confused.
>
>>Seat numbers on trains like Eurostar are pretty much visible just
>>like on an airliner. Each carriage will have an entrance at each
>>end. Some trains will have luggage racks at the doors at each
>>end. The Eurostar makes so few stops a thief is likely to be
>>pretty frustrated trying to snatch your bags and running off.
>
>I assume you're speaking of the Eurostar that goes under the English
>Channel? Since the original poster mentioned a trip wholly within
>Italy, he surely means Eurostar Italia.

Right. Mea culpa.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

unread,
Nov 22, 2006, 1:01:12 PM11/22/06
to
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:49:40 +0000,

[]


> should anyone consider the UK to be "European".

Of course it is. What a silly thing to say.

bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk

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Nov 22, 2006, 1:32:20 PM11/22/06
to
In article <1hp7t8h.ejyzv41lu9a8kN%this_address...@yahoo.co.uk>,
this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the
royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:

> *From:* this_address...@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_

> chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate)

> *Date:* Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:48:06 +0000


>
> The Reid <don...@fellwalk.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:11:18 +0100, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > >I can't abide instant coffee, and I've never had a decent cup of tea
> > >on a train. Except for my morning cup of cappuccino, I would prefer
> > >tea to coffee, but the tea I can find while travelling is
> > consistently
> > >undrinkable. I often travel with a thermos of tea.
> >
> > Am I alone in not much caring?
>
> You're probably not alone, but other people do care.

I don't know if this is taking it to absurd extremes, but when I have the
choice of changing at either Ely or Peterborough I always choose the
former - much better coffee!

David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate

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Nov 22, 2006, 1:33:54 PM11/22/06
to
<bar...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:

Again, Barney, you're simply a man after my heart. :)

(We'll put the smoking issue aside!)

Padraig Breathnach

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Nov 22, 2006, 2:15:27 PM11/22/06