More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales
Gregory Morrow
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/international/europe/27dutch.html
More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales
By MARLISE SIMONS
"AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the
Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client
list had surged.
But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and
his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.
In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages
and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people
saying they wanted to leave the country."
Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its
generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools,
museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?
The answer, increasingly, is yes. This small nation is a magnet for
immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white
middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general
pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social
tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them
Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr.
Hiltemann said.
There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing
newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim
countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for
decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and
bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large
English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they
say they hope to feel less constricted.
In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main
reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van
Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a
catalyst.
"Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said
Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch.
"That's four times the normal rate."
Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an
Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by
local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The
effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the
native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam.
There are no precise figures on the numbers now leaving. But Canadian,
Australian and New Zealand diplomats here said that while immigration papers
were processed in their home capitals, embassy officials here had been
swamped by inquiries in recent months.
Many who settle abroad may not appear in migration statistics, like the
growing contingent of retirees who flock to warmer places. But official
statistics show a trend. In 1999, nearly 30,000 native Dutch moved
elsewhere, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics. For 2004, the
provisional figure is close to 40,000. "It's definitely been picking up in
the past five years," said Cor Kooijmans, a demographer at the bureau.
Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small
town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year's worth of paperwork, the
family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their
fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children.
"When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot
safely cycle home at night," said Mr. Konings, 49. "My son just had his
fifth bicycle stolen." At school, his children and their friends feel
uneasy, he added. "They're afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of
foreign kids."
Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two
school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls "a safer,
more peaceful place."
Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their
yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they
feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams,
overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new
toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets.
Until the killing of Pim Fortuyn, a populist anti-immigration politician, in
2002 and the more recent slaying of a teacher by a student, this generation
of Dutch people could not conceive of such violence in their peaceful
country.
After Mr. van Gogh's killing, angry demonstrations and fire-bombings of
mosques and Muslim schools took place. In revenge, some Christian churches
were attacked. Mr. Konings said he and many of his friends sensed more
confrontation in the making, perhaps more violence.
"I'm a great optimist, but we're now caught in a downward spiral,
economically and socially," he said. "We feel we can give our children a
better start somewhere else."
Marianne and Rene Aukens, from the rural town of Brunssum, had successful
careers, he as director of a local bank, she as a personnel manager. But
after much thought they have applied to go to New Zealand. "In my lifetime,
all the villages around here have merged, almost all the green spaces have
been paved over," said Mr. Aukens, 41. "Nature is finished. There's no more
silence; you hear traffic everywhere."
The saying that the Netherlands is "full up" has become a national mantra.
It was used cautiously at first, because it had an overtone of being
anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim. But many of those interviewed now state it
flatly, like Peter Bles. He makes a long commute to a banking job in
Amsterdam, but he and his wife are preparing to move to Australia.
"We found people are more polite, less stressed, less aggressive there," Mr.
Bles said. "Perhaps stress has a lot to do with the lack of living space.
Here we are full up."
Space is indeed at a premium here in Europe's most densely populated nation,
where 16.3 million people live in an area roughly the size of Maryland.
Denmark, which is slightly larger, has 5.5 million people. Dutch
demographers say their country has undergone one of Europe's fastest and
most far-reaching demographic shifts, with about 10 percent of the
population now foreign born, a majority of them Muslims.
Blaming immigrants for many ills has become commonplace. Conservative
Moroccans and Turks from rural areas are accused of disdaining the liberal
Dutch ways and of making little effort to adapt. Immigrant youths now make
up half the prison population. More than 40 percent of immigrants receive
some form of government assistance, a source of resentment among native
Dutch. Immigrants say, though, that they are widely discriminated against.
Ms. Konings said the Dutch themselves brought on some of the social
frictions. The Dutch "thought that we had to adapt to the immigrants and
that we had to give them handouts," she said. "We've been too lenient; now
it's difficult to turn the tide."
To Mr. Hiltemann, the emigration consultant, what is remarkable is not only
the surge of interest among the Dutch in leaving, but also the type of
people involved. "They are successful people, I mean, urban professionals,
managers, physiotherapists, computer specialists," he said. Five years ago,
he said, most of his clients were farmers looking for more land.
Mr. Buysse, who employs a staff of eight to process visas, concurred. He
said farmers were still emigrating as Europe cut agricultural subsidies.
'"What is new," he said, "is that Dutch people who are rich or at least very
comfortable are now wanting to leave the country."
</>
Tom Bellhouse
"Gregory Morrow"
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCY...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:YWuUd.1772$wy3...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/international/europe/27dutch.html
>
>
> More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales
>
> Marianne and Rene Aukens, from the rural town of Brunssum, had
successful
> careers, he as director of a local bank, she as a personnel manager.
But
> after much thought they have applied to go to New Zealand. "In my
lifetime,
> all the villages around here have merged, almost all the green spaces
have
> been paved over," said Mr. Aukens, 41. "Nature is finished. There's no
more
> silence; you hear traffic everywhere."
>
> The saying that the Netherlands is "full up" has become a national
mantra.
========
I'm interested in this because I lived in Brunssum for three years,
between 1999 and 2002. It was interesting to see the delivery van for a
Pizzaria owned by Muslims with the logo of a militant carrying a machine
gun. The Dutch are wonderful people, probably too tolerant for their
own good. I was sitting talkig to a neighbor when his cell phone
(handy) rang, and he heard about Pim Fortuyn's murder. From the look on
his face, the sky had fallen. It was unimaginable to him.
It's ironic that Brunssum sits in one of the more open, beautiful areas
of the Netherlands, just above Maastricht, and the speaker mentions lack
of green space. I rode my motorcycle to work every day past acres and
acres of productive farm land. Trees are almost worshipped, and if
there's a bit of forest they give it a name, "So-and-so Bos." The
cities are unpleasantly crowded, but smaller towns feel quite livable.
I'd move back in a heartbeat, but despite their emigration, it's pretty
hard to earn Dutch citizenship. So, I'll visit!
One galling thing I saw in the Netherlands was the turn toward ugly,
boxy architecture and away from the more traditional houses, but I have
the same complaints here in the States. I'm just an old fuddy-duddy in
either country, I guess!
Tom
nobody760
of children for a British woman (presumably they mean native white) is 1.6.
The average for a Somali woman (there are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it
doesn't take a genius to work out the long-term consequences of this.
nobody760
racism. I have never ever racially abused anyone but facts are facts.
Here is a quote.
" If we hate life, why do we
have more children than you? The population of the Arab world doubled
during the 20 years between 1978 and 1998, and between 1998 and 2010
will have grown by yet another third.
- Osama bin Laden.
The full speech is here.
Jed
<alt...@alltel.net> wrote:
>I'm interested in this because I lived in Brunssum for three years,
>between 1999 and 2002. It was interesting to see the delivery van for a
>Pizzaria owned by Muslims with the logo of a militant carrying a machine
>gun. The Dutch are wonderful people, probably too tolerant for their
>own good. I was sitting talkig to a neighbor when his cell phone
>(handy) rang, and he heard about Pim Fortuyn's murder. From the look on
>his face, the sky had fallen. It was unimaginable to him.
>
>It's ironic that Brunssum sits in one of the more open, beautiful areas
>of the Netherlands, just above Maastricht, and the speaker mentions lack
>of green space. I rode my motorcycle to work every day past acres and
>acres of productive farm land. Trees are almost worshipped, and if
>there's a bit of forest they give it a name, "So-and-so Bos." The
>cities are unpleasantly crowded, but smaller towns feel quite livable.
>I'd move back in a heartbeat, but despite their emigration, it's pretty
>hard to earn Dutch citizenship. So, I'll visit!
>
>One galling thing I saw in the Netherlands was the turn toward ugly,
>boxy architecture and away from the more traditional houses, but I have
>the same complaints here in the States. I'm just an old fuddy-duddy in
>either country, I guess!
I pretty much agree with your assessment. I lived for 4 years through
'94 in 's-Graveland, near Hilversum in the "Golden Triangle/Gooi
Noord" halfway between Amsterdam and Utrecht.
I always avoided the A2 for the drive to work in Utrecht by taking the
backroads through Oude-Loosdrecht, Loenen, and Breukelen. I always
remarked at how well the Dutch had integrated urban/suburban areas
with farmland and undeveloped area. For such a small country with a
high population density, they certainly seemed to have preserved the
"feel" of old Holland pretty well at least to an Ameican's eye.
As to Dutch tolerence, even in the early 90s, you could sense a
decrease just below the surface as anti immigrant grafitti began to
appear and, subtly, in conversations with the Dutch themselves.
Coming from the states, I was surprised to find the Dutch considered
certain areas like the Bijlermeer and large areas of Rotterdam "slums"
or "projects. Compared to slums in the the states, these areas were
immaculate with clean streets and yards and flowers in the windows.
I guess things have changed a lot in the last 10 years.
Deep Foiled Malls
Lot's more smelly little brown people to destroy our way of life?
We can always control them with war and sanctions like we have in the
past.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:07:06 -0000, "nobody760"
> <nobo...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >According to yesterday's Times newspaper here in the UK the average number
> >of children for a British woman (presumably they mean native white) is 1.6.
> >The average for a Somali woman (there are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it
> >doesn't take a genius to work out the long-term consequences of this.
>
> Lot's more smelly little brown people to destroy our way of life?
Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
but there you go.) I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
faces complaining were not white!
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Tim Challenger
Is that 6.9 children in the UK or in Somalia?
--
Tim C.
Des Small
It pretty much takes a raciste to assume that this behaviour will
persist in the long term, though.
Des
Marc
lives abroad with her:
The Dutch have always been excellent salespeople: it's what made the country
rich. They were very good in selling the image of a tolerant country,
because it attracts trade and tourists, but underneath there has always been
racism and intolerance. The only thing that changed is that intolerance is
now an official policy, and that it is completely accepted to make racist
remarks in public.
The Dutch are spoilt to the bone. The average Dutchman has never been richer
than today, but complaints more and more about every minor detail - and no
matter how small it is, it's the immigrant that are to blame.
It's a very unpleasant country to live nowadays.
"Jed" <slot...@example.com.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:6f4621t5a7rgcbmis...@4ax.com...
The Reids
>of children for a British woman (presumably they mean native white) is 1.6.
>The average for a Somali woman (there are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it
>doesn't take a genius to work out the long-term consequences of this.
that as people get the benefits of a welfare state with pensions
and see the lure of affluent planned small family life they drop
to western birthrates?
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
The Reids
>> Lot's more smelly little brown people to destroy our way of life?
>
>Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
>is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
>of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
>Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
>I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
>but there you go.) I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
>aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
>faces complaining were not white!
Yes, its a mistake to think NIMBYism, racism, self interest or
whatever has much to do with skin colour.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> Following up to chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
>
> >> Lot's more smelly little brown people to destroy our way of life?
> >
> >Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
> >is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
> >of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
> >Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
> >I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
> >but there you go.) I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
> >aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
> >faces complaining were not white!
>
> Yes, its a mistake to think NIMBYism, racism, self interest or
> whatever has much to do with skin colour.
There was one bit in the programme when two asian youths were
interviewed in their car. They were going on about how the Somalis were
'just sponging' off the system, and when asked what _they_ gave to the
community, they both explained they were on jobseeker's allowance! It
was priceless...
Keith Anderson
In one of my various jobs (!) I teach English to, amongst others,
Somalis.
Quite a few of them tell me that they'd go home tomorrow if Somalia
were a viable entity but that it's virtually impossible to survive
there, One guy said he wished that Nelson Mandela had been a Somali,
because it needs someone of that calibre to sort the mess out.
Deep Foiled Malls
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>Deep Foiled Malls <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:07:06 -0000, "nobody760"
>> <nobo...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >According to yesterday's Times newspaper here in the UK the average number
>> >of children for a British woman (presumably they mean native white) is 1.6.
>> >The average for a Somali woman (there are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it
>> >doesn't take a genius to work out the long-term consequences of this.
>>
>> Lot's more smelly little brown people to destroy our way of life?
>
>Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
>is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
>of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
>Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
>I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
>but there you go.)
I was working in Leicester, England for a while, which has a very big
black population. In fact, someone told me it's officially the first
black city (>50% dark skinned) in England.
>I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
>aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
>faces complaining were not white!
Nothing unusual about that. Where I was last living in Melbourne, the
Italian population were the first to speak up complaining about the
immigrants in Melbourne, and the immigrants in Italy too, as if it's
not always been like that here.
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to nobody760
>
>>of children for a British woman (presumably they mean native white) is 1.6.
>>The average for a Somali woman (there are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it
>>doesn't take a genius to work out the long-term consequences of this.
>
>that as people get the benefits of a welfare state with pensions
>and see the lure of affluent planned small family life they drop
>to western birthrates?
Sounds like the immigrants to the UK that I know.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
[]
> I was working in Leicester, England for a while, which has a very big
> black population.
Don't you mean Asian?
Iain Bowen
deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu says...
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:14:56 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
> (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
> I was working in Leicester, England for a while, which has a very big
> black population. In fact, someone told me it's officially the first
> black city (>50% dark skinned) in England.
Someone told you wrong.
Iain
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
Indeed. The latest statistics indicate slightly over a third of the
population is non-white. That's well over the 10% average for England,
but not so unusual for a big city. The largest ethnic population is
Indian- that might be what DFM meant by black.
Sjoerd
"Marc" <ma...@NOSPAMbelgacom.xml> schreef in bericht
news:42231b76$0$18772$ba62...@news.skynet.be...
> A word from a Dutchman who married an immigrant in the Netherlands and now
> lives abroad with her:
A reply from a Dutchman who co-habitates with an immigrant in the
Netherlands, and who will emigrate to another country soon (but not for any
of the reasons described in the article quoted by the OP) :
>
> The Dutch have always been excellent salespeople: it's what made the
country
> rich. They were very good in selling the image of a tolerant country,
> because it attracts trade and tourists, but underneath there has always
been
> racism and intolerance. The only thing that changed is that intolerance is
> now an official policy, and that it is completely accepted to make racist
> remarks in public.
Partially true. Our current government is to blame for encouraging the
racists to speak out. However, more and more people are now reacting to the
racists and their government supporters, and a much more reasonable and
balanced discussion is beginning to emerge in the media.
>
> The Dutch are spoilt to the bone. The average Dutchman has never been
richer
> than today, but complaints more and more about every minor detail - and no
> matter how small it is, it's the immigrant that are to blame.
Yes, these people exist, but it is not fair to describe these as the
"average Dutchman" that does not exist. There are still lots of reasonable
people who don't join the chorus of cheap anti-immigrant slanter.
>
> It's a very unpleasant country to live nowadays.
That's nonsense. I am still happy here, and so are almost all of my friends
and relatives, including many non-white Dutch and immigrants from all parts
of the world. And when you get away from the main (big) cities, life is
still relaxed and easy going, and people couldn't be nicer and friendlier.
Always when I visit my mother who lives in a small town up North, I enjoy
the slow pace of life and the simple friendliness of the people there.
By the way, I believe from your post headers that you live in Belgium.
Racism and cheap anti-immigrant talk is certainly as big there as in the
Netherlands (or haven't you ever heard about Vlaams Belang?)
Sjoerd
Gregory Morrow
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn wrote:
> Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
> is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
> of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
> Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
> I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
> but there you go.) I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
> aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
> faces complaining were not white!
Some of the folks complaining about the recent Mexican influx into
California and the US Southwest states are older established Hispanics, many
of whom have been in the US for over a hundred years (longer than most
whites as a matter of fact).
I've also noticed that some African and West Indian blacks *really* look
down on inner - city US blacks (who live in public housing projects, don't
have jobs, etc.). I'd almost describe it as "racist", except that these
people are all basically from the same racial group...I've Nigerian, etc.
acquaintances, well - educated who speak perfect "Oxford" English who have
nothing but total contempt for US blacks.
And there is a considerable amount of ill will between inner city US blacks
and people of South Asian and Middle Eastern extraction...Koreans, too. The
latter three groups are often the only folks who operate businesses in poor
black US inner - city areas, there is a lot of friction because of
this...the immigrants are seen as "carpetbaggers", gougers, and just plain
rude. Remember that during the LA racial riots back in the 90's the first
places torched were Korean businesses...
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Sjoerd wrote:
> Partially true. Our current government is to blame for encouraging the
> racists to speak out. However, more and more people are now reacting to
the
> racists and their government supporters, and a much more reasonable and
> balanced discussion is beginning to emerge in the media.
And that "balanced discussion" will last until another Dutch politician or
public figure who dares to speak out about the excesses of Islam is shot
dead, Sjoerd...
--
Best
Greg
Sjoerd
"chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn"
news:1gsp39i.1gira2e6piku0N%
> Actually, it's more nuanced than that. In Birmingham, for example, there
> is quite a lot of resentment against the recent influx of Somalis. (Many
> of them, interestingly, have moved there from the Netherlands and
> Scandinavia once they've acquired the citizenship of those countries.
> I'm not quite sure what the attraction of Birmingham is, in particular,
> but there you go.)
Apparently many Somalis move from the Netherlands and Scandinavia to England
because it is easier there to open a (small) business. I watched a
documentary on Dutch TV recently that showed a Dutch - Somali family in
England. The teenage children spoke fluent Dutch and were still watching
Dutch soap TV series, and told the reporter they missed their life in the
Netherlands. The father explained that it was too difficult (diplomas,
paperwork) to start a small laundry in the Netherlands, and that was the
reason for moving the family to England.
I saw a lot of locals complaining about various
> aspects of this on a BBC programme the other night- and most of the
> faces complaining were not white!
Same here. I used to take the night bus home from Amsterdam central to our
neighbourhood, and it was always amusing to hear the blatant and open racism
of Moroccans against Turks, Turks against blacks, blacks against Moroccans,
and all other combinations between these groups, while the few whites in the
bus remained silent.
Sjoerd
Gregory Morrow
Sjoerd wrote:
> Apparently many Somalis move from the Netherlands and Scandinavia to
England
> because it is easier there to open a (small) business. I watched a
> documentary on Dutch TV recently that showed a Dutch - Somali family in
> England. The teenage children spoke fluent Dutch and were still watching
> Dutch soap TV series, and told the reporter they missed their life in the
> Netherlands. The father explained that it was too difficult (diplomas,
> paperwork) to start a small laundry in the Netherlands, and that was the
> reason for moving the family to England.
One of the reasons why the UK is a big economic draw, it's not just Third
Worlders moving there it's also French, Germans, etc. The UK has a
business - friendly "climate" while sclerotic "Old Europe" just pokes along
(or actually even walks backwards, like Germany is doing)...
--
Best
Greg
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
[]
> A reply from a Dutchman who co-habitates with an immigrant in the
> Netherlands, and who will emigrate to another country soon (but not for any
> of the reasons described in the article quoted by the OP) :
Oh, where are you moving to?
[]
> That's nonsense. I am still happy here, and so are almost all of my friends
> and relatives, including many non-white Dutch and immigrants from all parts
> of the world. And when you get away from the main (big) cities, life is
> still relaxed and easy going, and people couldn't be nicer and friendlier.
> Always when I visit my mother who lives in a small town up North, I enjoy
> the slow pace of life and the simple friendliness of the people there.
That's true for most of Europe as well. It still doesn't get around the
fact that, on the whole, Europe has had problems with integrating
certain immigrants. This is not a problem exclusive to Europe, of
course, but it is still a problem, and has to be addressed. Some
countries want to do it in appallingly stupid ways- I'm thinking of the
recent French ban on hijabs, skull caps and so on. It's also interesting
to note that certain groups of immigrants do better than others when
they move to Europe. I think there's a complex mix of reasons for that-
I don't, for example, believe that one nationality or race is
genetically predisposed to do better.
What has long been needed is an intelligent debate as to what the
problems are, and what might be done to alleviate some of them. Too much
of the rhetoric, it seems to me, is hard pushed to one side or the
other, be it racists who want to get rid of immigrants en masse or
others who think that all the problems of integration are as a _result_
of racism.
Deep Foiled Malls
wrote:
>A word from a Dutchman who married an immigrant in the Netherlands and now
>lives abroad with her:
>
>The Dutch have always been excellent salespeople: it's what made the country
>rich. They were very good in selling the image of a tolerant country,
>because it attracts trade and tourists, but underneath there has always been
>racism and intolerance. The only thing that changed is that intolerance is
>now an official policy, and that it is completely accepted to make racist
>remarks in public.
>
>The Dutch are spoilt to the bone. The average Dutchman has never been richer
>than today, but complaints more and more about every minor detail - and no
>matter how small it is, it's the immigrant that are to blame.
>
>It's a very unpleasant country to live nowadays.
I lived in Nijmegen for 3 months about 3 years ago, and can't recally
much of what you are saying. There were quite a few African guys
there, and they seemed to have assimilated nicely. In fact, one girl I
know there only goes out with black men.
Oh, and I can name quite a few countries more unpleasant than the
Netherlands to live in.
Deep Foiled Malls
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>Iain Bowen <ala...@alaric.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <c6a62118p1vjtj3i8...@4ax.com>,
>> deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu says...
>> > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:14:56 +0000, this_address...@yahoo.com
>> > (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>>
>> > I was working in Leicester, England for a while, which has a very big
>> > black population. In fact, someone told me it's officially the first
>> > black city (>50% dark skinned) in England.
>>
>> Someone told you wrong.
>
>Indeed. The latest statistics indicate slightly over a third of the
>population is non-white. That's well over the 10% average for England,
>but not so unusual for a big city. The largest ethnic population is
>Indian- that might be what DFM meant by black.
Indeed it was. I was working for an Indian company
(http://www.asiancultureclub.com/ , who's site no longer works!) and
thoroughly enjoyed my time there.
I heard the >50% black thing on the radio so it must have been true.
Good Indian food was available there, that's for sure.
Deep Foiled Malls
They'll possibly even have a government soon.
Note that without the governmental layer, Somalia has the cheapest
mobile phone calls in the world.
Go Fig
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> Sjoerd <sjoerdh...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> []
> > A reply from a Dutchman who co-habitates with an immigrant in the
> > Netherlands, and who will emigrate to another country soon (but not for any
> > of the reasons described in the article quoted by the OP) :
>
> Oh, where are you moving to?
>
> []
> > That's nonsense. I am still happy here, and so are almost all of my friends
> > and relatives, including many non-white Dutch and immigrants from all parts
> > of the world. And when you get away from the main (big) cities, life is
> > still relaxed and easy going, and people couldn't be nicer and friendlier.
> > Always when I visit my mother who lives in a small town up North, I enjoy
> > the slow pace of life and the simple friendliness of the people there.
>
> That's true for most of Europe as well. It still doesn't get around the
> fact that, on the whole, Europe has had problems with integrating
> certain immigrants.
The U.S. Public TV (PBS) show "Frontline" had a show on this 2 weeks
ago. It was very informative and can be seen at the link below.
"Frontline" shows are available on the web as streaming videos, this
program is segmented into 4 parts. I would recommend Part 2, which is
directly germane to this subject and would give an example of what, a
critically acclaimed U.S. TV show, take is on this important subject.
No commercials, very fast server:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/view/
jay
Mon Feb 28, 2005
mailto:go...@mac.com
The Reids
>The UK has a
>business - friendly "climate" while sclerotic "Old Europe" just pokes along
I don't hear anybody say that here in UK, but then the whole "old
europe" thing is a US creation, presumably to do with
Germany/France not agreeing over Iraq.
The Reids
>I've also noticed that some African and West Indian blacks *really* look
>down on inner - city US blacks (who live in public housing projects, don't
>have jobs, etc.). I'd almost describe it as "racist", except that these
>people are all basically from the same racial group...I've Nigerian, etc.
>acquaintances, well - educated who speak perfect "Oxford" English who have
>nothing but total contempt for US blacks.
I think a lot of people make mistakes understanding what they
perceive as racism. When working class people complain to
politicians that immigrants are taking their jobs and public
housing, they are often dismissed as racists and ignored, then
the working class people make the mistake of attacking the
immigrants rather than the politicians.
I think what you describe about is class consciousness or
snobbery, not racism. black people are not exempt from either, or
indeed racism, although I once heard a rather foolish black race
activist argue on the radio it was impossible for a black person
to be racist!
The Reids
>I heard the >50% black thing on the radio so it must have been true.
>Good Indian food was available there, that's for sure.
This was Birmingham, wasn't it? A Birmingham radio presenter now
in London says ethnic mix in Birmingham is different to LOndon,
not mixed in as much, so there are probably areas with high asian
populations (no afro/caribbean to speak of) and area, Solihul?,
with none.
The Reids
>Note that without the governmental layer, Somalia has the cheapest
>mobile phone calls in the world.
Is that a recommendation to go there or a criticism of the govt
there or what?
Icono Clast
> According to yesterday's Times newspaper here in the UK the
> mean native white) is 1.6. The average for a Somali woman (there
> are many in my home town) is 6.9 - it doesn't take a genius to
> work out the long-term consequences of this.
I know little of Somalia but assume that it's a very poor country
with a high death rate for children younger than five AND little or
no care for the old such as pensions (thus becoming child-dependent)
and little education or opportunity for women to earn a living.
The second or third generation of Somalis living in Britain is likely
to be as British as everyone else and have a comparable birth rate.
The long-term consequence of the current birth rate is unlikely to be
significant.
_____________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan in 47.452 mile² San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> Following up to Gregory Morrow
>
> >The UK has a
> >business - friendly "climate" while sclerotic "Old Europe" just pokes along
>
> I don't hear anybody say that here in UK, but then the whole "old
> europe" thing is a US creation, presumably to do with
> Germany/France not agreeing over Iraq.
The second part isn't true, or at least I don't hear it, but the UK is
certainly perceived (here, and in Europe) has being an easier place for
small businesses to set up. It's not the language issue either- much of
the EU has layers of bureaucracy unheard of in the UK.
Keith Anderson
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote:
>The Reids <don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Following up to Gregory Morrow
>>
>> >The UK has a
>> >business - friendly "climate" while sclerotic "Old Europe" just pokes along
>>
>> I don't hear anybody say that here in UK, but then the whole "old
>> europe" thing is a US creation, presumably to do with
>> Germany/France not agreeing over Iraq.
>
>The second part isn't true, or at least I don't hear it, but the UK is
>certainly perceived (here, and in Europe) has being an easier place for
>small businesses to set up. It's not the language issue either- much of
>the EU has layers of bureaucracy unheard of in the UK.
A Dutch friend of mine started a business in the Dordogne in France.
The amount of time he had to spend in government offices filling in
complicated paperwork was extraordinary. It was all about rules,
regulations and jumping over bureacratic hurdles - dealing with
pen-pushers who didn't have a clue about his business.
Yes, it is easy in the UK. You can more or less do it when you want
and tell the authorities rather than asking them. There are all sorts
of organisations offering help and advice, too - much of it free.
I'm not a great fan of global corporatism - whilst the UK economy
looks very good on paper, the price to pay is the end of job security,
great concern about pensions, a widening gap between rich and poor,
lots of piss-poor, high-stress, low-paid jobs in the service sector
and declining public services.
However, being able to go self-employed helped me avoid financial
ruin.
On the Radio 4 "In Business" programme last night, the former director
of Excite.com was talking about what he had learnt from the company's
crash. He pointed out the growth of small businesses is vital, and his
mistake had been looking at the economy in terms of dozens of markets
of millions instead of millions of markets of dozens. Maybe the big
corporations have had their day?
OK, so Germany has 5 million unemployed but excellent job security
The UK has low unemployment and poor job security.
Maybe taking the top-heavy bureacracy away from people wanting to
become self-employed might start to make a difference?
Gregory Morrow
Deep Foiled Malls wrote:
> I lived in Nijmegen for 3 months about 3 years ago, and can't recally
> much of what you are saying. There were quite a few African guys
> there, and they seemed to have assimilated nicely. In fact, one girl I
> know there only goes out with black men.
"Hmmmm..."
> Oh, and I can name quite a few countries more unpleasant than the
> Netherlands to live in.
Yup...like the "red state" area that comprises much of the US...
--
Best
Greg
Tom Bellhouse
"Gregory Morrow"
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCY...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:w53Vd.3242$wy3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Now Greg, as one of our former Presidents (but not a personal favorite)
said, "There you go again." Perhaps you generalize? Biracial and/or
gay couples are old news and are well accepted in Atlanta, for instance,
and in most of the other larger cities. After all, the political
machines in most larger Southern cities are in black hands. Now when
you get out in the sticks, things are different. But that's the case in
the North, too.
Tom
Blue guy in a Red state
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
>>Note that without the governmental layer, Somalia has the cheapest
>>mobile phone calls in the world.
>
>Is that a recommendation to go there or a criticism of the govt
>there or what?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4020259.stm
There isn't any real government.
A recommendation to go there? I would in a second, but hey, don't ever
take my advice unless you are prepared to have the hairs on the back
of your neck standing for weeks!
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
>>I heard the >50% black thing on the radio so it must have been true.
>>Good Indian food was available there, that's for sure.
>
>This was Birmingham, wasn't it? A Birmingham radio presenter now
>in London says ethnic mix in Birmingham is different to LOndon,
>not mixed in as much, so there are probably areas with high asian
>populations (no afro/caribbean to speak of) and area, Solihul?,
>with none.
Ah, Solihull, yet another place in central England I was sent to for
work. The big gas company has an office there, but I can't remember
the name of it.
Fucking boring place, Solihull.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
[]
> Note that without the governmental layer, Somalia has the cheapest
> mobile phone calls in the world.
Hm.... $10 for unlimited _local_ calls, and 50 cents for international?
I pay £15, which includes 1,500 minutes a month, including calls to most
countries I call abroad. That's offpeak, but during peak, I pay 3p for
unmetered UK calls, and around 0.5-2p a minute for foreign landlines. I
think I'll take my plan and live here...
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to Gregory Morrow
>
>>I've also noticed that some African and West Indian blacks *really* look
>>down on inner - city US blacks (who live in public housing projects, don't
>>have jobs, etc.). I'd almost describe it as "racist", except that these
>>people are all basically from the same racial group...I've Nigerian, etc.
>>acquaintances, well - educated who speak perfect "Oxford" English who have
>>nothing but total contempt for US blacks.
>
>I think a lot of people make mistakes understanding what they
>perceive as racism. When working class people complain to
>politicians that immigrants are taking their jobs and public
>housing, they are often dismissed as racists and ignored, then
>the working class people make the mistake of attacking the
>immigrants rather than the politicians.
>I think what you describe about is class consciousness or
>snobbery, not racism. black people are not exempt from either, or
>indeed racism, although I once heard a rather foolish black race
>activist argue on the radio it was impossible for a black person
>to be racist!
I have always maintained that 'racist' meant something about being
mean to blacks. If there's more to it than that, I can't see it.
The Reids
>> Note that without the governmental layer, Somalia has the cheapest
>> mobile phone calls in the world.
>
>Hm.... $10 for unlimited _local_ calls, and 50 cents for international?
>I pay £15, which includes 1,500 minutes a month, including calls to most
>countries I call abroad. That's offpeak, but during peak, I pay 3p for
>unmetered UK calls, and around 0.5-2p a minute for foreign landlines. I
>think I'll take my plan and live here...
I had started packing till I heard the power isn't on often
enough to recharge the phone :-)
The Reids
>>I think what you describe about is class consciousness or
>>snobbery, not racism. black people are not exempt from either, or
>>indeed racism, although I once heard a rather foolish black race
>>activist argue on the radio it was impossible for a black person
>>to be racist!
>
>I have always maintained that 'racist' meant something about being
>mean to blacks. If there's more to it than that, I can't see it.
why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
The Reids
>I'm not a great fan of global corporatism - whilst the UK economy
>looks very good on paper, the price to pay is the end of job security,
>great concern about pensions, a widening gap between rich and poor,
>lots of piss-poor, high-stress, low-paid jobs in the service sector
>and declining public services.
Its fine if you own a business or your job cant be exported to a
low pay country. If not it sucks.
>However, being able to go self-employed helped me avoid financial
>ruin.
I'm self employed and financially ruined :-)
The Reids
>Ah, Solihull, yet another place in central England I was sent to for
>work. The big gas company has an office there, but I can't remember
>the name of it.
>
>Fucking boring place, Solihull.
Ive never been, but middle class suburbs are typically such.
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
>>>I think what you describe about is class consciousness or
>>>snobbery, not racism. black people are not exempt from either, or
>>>indeed racism, although I once heard a rather foolish black race
>>>activist argue on the radio it was impossible for a black person
>>>to be racist!
>>
>>I have always maintained that 'racist' meant something about being
>>mean to blacks. If there's more to it than that, I can't see it.
>
>why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
Curiously the Japanese have a flavour of racism that is considered so
deeply rooted in their society, that it must be accepted.
As this racism is perfectly acceptable to them, but unacceptable to
us, we must learn to tolerate their ways.
Isn't that how it works?
The Reids
>>why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
>
>Curiously the Japanese have a flavour of racism that is considered so
>deeply rooted in their society, that it must be accepted.
We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
but not japanese.
>As this racism is perfectly acceptable to them, but unacceptable to
>us, we must learn to tolerate their ways.
In the same way we tolerate countries that do not let women vote
and not allow them to drive cars, be educated etc.
>Isn't that how it works?
Until it gets out of hand and we have a world war.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
> >>why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
> >
> >Curiously the Japanese have a flavour of racism that is considered so
> >deeply rooted in their society, that it must be accepted.
>
> We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
> I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
> but not japanese.
Oh, the ones in Manchester do.
James Silverton
> Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
>>> why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
>>
>> Curiously the Japanese have a flavour of racism that is considered
>> so
>> deeply rooted in their society, that it must be accepted.
>
> We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
> I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
> but not japanese.
>
Without denying that racism exists in Japan, it is important not to
generalize from a small number of examples. The only Japanese grocery
store that I am familiar with does not carry any but Japanese products
except for fresh foodstuffs but it is quite small. I've never seen a
Chinese supermarket here that lets chauvinism stand in the way of
profits! The one I use most often has Philippino, Thai and Japanese
foods.
--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA
The Reids
>> We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
>> I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
>> but not japanese.
>
>Oh, the ones in Manchester do.
I asked for some japanese stuff and got the impression I hadn't
said the right thing, could be my imagination of course as they
are so inscrutable :-), but they didn't have any.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> Following up to chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
>
> >> We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
> >> I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
> >> but not japanese.
> >
> >Oh, the ones in Manchester do.
>
> I asked for some japanese stuff and got the impression I hadn't
> said the right thing, could be my imagination of course as they
> are so inscrutable :-), but they didn't have any.
I think you might find they have various japanese products in the
smaller stores in Chinatown though. I'm pretty sure I've bought Nori
there for example.
The Reids
>> I asked for some japanese stuff and got the impression I hadn't
>> said the right thing, could be my imagination of course as they
>> are so inscrutable :-), but they didn't have any.
>
>I think you might find they have various japanese products in the
>smaller stores in Chinatown though. I'm pretty sure I've bought Nori
>there for example.
may be, I go to the japanese shop by golden square.
Frank F. Matthews
The Reids wrote:
> Following up to Deep Foiled Malls
>
>
>>>I think what you describe about is class consciousness or
>>>snobbery, not racism. black people are not exempt from either, or
>>>indeed racism, although I once heard a rather foolish black race
>>>activist argue on the radio it was impossible for a black person
>>>to be racist!
>>
>>I have always maintained that 'racist' meant something about being
>>mean to blacks. If there's more to it than that, I can't see it.
>
>
> why only "blacks"? Cant Japanese be racist to Europeans?
Japanese can manage to be racist to most anyone. That includes Koreans
who are practically identical genetically.
Deep Foiled Malls
<don...@fell-walker.co.uk> wrote:
>Following up to chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
>
>>> We probably have to put up with it, we shouldnt regard it as OK.
>>> I note my chinese cash and carry carries other asian food stuffs
>>> but not japanese.
>>
>>Oh, the ones in Manchester do.
>
>I asked for some japanese stuff and got the impression I hadn't
>said the right thing, could be my imagination of course as they
>are so inscrutable :-), but they didn't have any.
As a general rule the Chinese are pretty tolerant to all the negative
stuff associated with their country, but no doubt the whole Japan
thing really did hurt them badly. The nerves are still raw.
I make a rule of never mentioning the Japanese to the Chinese.
nobody760
defended its uniform policy which he said took into account cultural
and religious sensitivities.
A case here in the UK reported today in the media (2.3.05) concerning
the rights of a muslim girl to wear islamic clothing.
Story here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4310545.stm
79%!
I cant help wondering if it was possible for something along this line
appearing in the Islamabad Herald -
Today the High Court here in Islamabad upheld the cultural right of a
school where 79% of the girl pupils are of Christian/European
background the right to wear short skirts, short sleeve tops and
uncovered hair.
Somehow I just don't think so.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> A spokesman for Denbigh High School, where 79% of pupils are Muslims,
> defended its uniform policy which he said took into account cultural
> and religious sensitivities.
>
> A case here in the UK reported today in the media (2.3.05) concerning
> the rights of a muslim girl to wear islamic clothing.
I was against, for example, the French law to ban the wearing of various
forms of religious dress. I think that's astonishingly illiberal.
However, this is more complicated. The school in question already
allowed the wearing of the hijab- indeed, it was incorporated into a
school uniform. This young woman, for whatever reasons, felt this wasn't
modest enough, and wanted to wear a jilab. The school felt this would be
against their dress policy, and I am sympathetic to why they would feel
this way. However, the girl _did_ find another school to accomodate her.
The problem was that she wanted the original school to accomodate her
too. I have problems with this. What if she'd wanted to wear a burka to
protect her modesty? What if she'd not wanted to be taught by a male
teacher?
I suppose, in the grand scheme of things, this will not be a big deal,
however.
Deep Foiled Malls
Don't say that to the Koreans!!!
And culturally they are distinctly different, and that goes beyond the
fact that the Koreans eat dogs.
Go Fig
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn
> nobody760 <nobo...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A spokesman for Denbigh High School, where 79% of pupils are Muslims,
> > defended its uniform policy which he said took into account cultural
> > and religious sensitivities.
> >
> > A case here in the UK reported today in the media (2.3.05) concerning
> > the rights of a muslim girl to wear islamic clothing.
>
> I was against, for example, the French law to ban the wearing of various
> forms of religious dress. I think that's astonishingly illiberal.
It is. But is shows how desperate, with good reason, the French Gov
has become to assimilate the Muslims into the established society.
They need to take some advise from President Bush's program...
"ownership society". The French need to breakup those huge concrete
ghettos and provide funding to get these people into a home of their
own... not paying 100%, enough to make the opportunity viable, but
maintaining the individual responsibilities that come with ownership
and the resulting pride in that ownership.
These people will need jobs and France must reduce the bureaucracy so
these people can be entrepreneurial start-ups and again have a personal
investment in the French society.
Currently, they treat the French society like a rent-a-car with full
insurance.
jay
Wed Mar 02, 2005
mailto:go...@mac.com
Frank F. Matthews
Deep Foiled Malls wrote:
I know. It does tend to piss off both groups. The genetic evidence is
pretty strong. Of course lots of folks get pissed when genetics calls
their myths into question. Try talking to some breeders of dogs
concerning the recent evidence that has been discovered. Myths falling
all over.
The Reids
>The problem was that she wanted the original school to accomodate her
>too.
or rather to win the court case.
>I have problems with this. What if she'd wanted to wear a burka to
>protect her modesty? What if she'd not wanted to be taught by a male
>teacher?
We have to draw a line somewhere about being involved in our
society but its difficult to balance with being liberal (unlike
moslems societies). How are you liberal to the illiberal?
Calif Bill
"Deep Foiled Malls" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:a52c2157p9aptnir4...@4ax.com...
At least the Koreans are not too lazy to cook their meats. And Japan is
extremely racist. If you are a Japanese decendent, not born in Japan, you
are nada in their estimation.