Art on Ships
Nancy
cruise ship and is it really fine art? We were just on a cruise and went to
an art auction but don't know enough about art to know if they are worth
what they say. Thanks. Nancy
Aaron T. Farr
most of it can be described as fine art.
The best example I can think of is one cruise was offering a piece by an
artist I was interested in. Actually even a free poster of his work just
for attending the auction as supply lasted. (Name escapes me at the
moment). The auctioneer told me he hoped to get $200. The artist paints a
kind of modern "art deco" look, always women but always with some
checkerboard pattern evident somewhere, in floor tiles for example.
Not far from here is an "Ikea", a Swedish store that's all the rage
featuring everything for the home, that tries to sell themselves on good
value. In their art dept. was a big print from that same artist, framed
with glass, probably measures 4 x 5 feet. They were selling it for $70, and
there had to be 50 in the stack next to the Picasso Guernica's in the same
frame.
This question about the value of art on the ship comes up every now and
then, and most answers seem to point to better value elsewhere.
Nancy wrote in message <84e31e$e4o$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
Tom & Linda
Hahahahahahaha!
--Tom
Tom & Linda
artwork. You're essentially buying expensive Xerox copies.
My personal recommendation (since I'm an amateur oil painter) is go to a
local gallery (or even a gallery at a port that you go to) and buy an
original oil painting, water color painting or acrylic painting. You
will then have the "real deal" and not just a fancy copy. You don't
need to spend big money for an original. In fact you can probably buy
something cheaper than what you would pay for reproductions on a ship.
And then you will have something touched by the artists hands.
--Tom
Gerry Macdonald & Susan Armstrong
"art auctions" at sea are nothing but a con game prying big bucks from
the unknowing by the unprincipled and the uncaring!
If the auctions were land based they would be shut down by the
authorities as fraudulent.
You have a better chance of breaking the bank at the casinos, than
buying "art at auction" on the high seas. Pirates still sail the
bounding main!
If you want honest art, go ashore and buy from a local artist . For
$10-$50, you can buy an original that reflects, the passion and the
colour of the place you are visiting.
Regards
Gerry
On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 18:12:30 -0500, "Aaron T. Farr"
<afarr@no_spam.sprynet.com> wrote:
>I believe it's mostly a lot of general interest art, and I don't know if
>most of it can be described as fine art.
>
>The best example I can think of is one cruise was offering a piece by an
>artist I was interested in. Actually even a free poster of his work just
>for attending the auction as supply lasted. (Name escapes me at the
>moment). The auctioneer told me he hoped to get $200. The artist paints a
>kind of modern "art deco" look, always women but always with some
>checkerboard pattern evident somewhere, in floor tiles for example.
>
>Not far from here is an "Ikea", a Swedish store that's all the rage
>featuring everything for the home, that tries to sell themselves on good
>value. In their art dept. was a big print from that same artist, framed
>with glass, probably measures 4 x 5 feet. They were selling it for $70, and
>there had to be 50 in the stack next to the Picasso Guernica's in the same
>frame.
>
>This question about the value of art on the ship comes up every now and
>then, and most answers seem to point to better value elsewhere.
>
>
>Nancy wrote in message <84e31e$e4o$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
>>I'm not a reg. poster. Just was curious if anyone has ever bought art on a
>>cruise ship and is it really fine art? We were just on a cruise and went
>to
>>an art auction but don't know enough about art to know if they are worth
>>what they say. Thanks. Nancy
>>
>>
>
Digital Photo Page:
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~balsamlake/index.htm
And
Jim Coleman
are there but like any other art purchase - if you value the art at the price it
is available for - then it is okay. The downside to purchasing art on a ship is
the shipping arrangements. Unless the piece is small and is hand carried home,
there can be a delay of as much as 1 month before receiving the art.
Aaron T. Farr
If you see something and absolutely love it, then buy it, but as for
bargains, I would look elsewhere.
Gerry Macdonald & Susan Armstrong wrote in message
<386e3cba...@news1.sympatico.ca>...
>>>I'm not a reg. poster. Just was curious if anyone has ever bought art on
a
>>>cruise ship and is it really fine art? We were just on a cruise and went
>>to
>>>an art auction but don't know enough about art to know if they are worth
>>>what they say. Thanks. Nancy
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
Don and Shelly Alexander
"deal". Better to buy elsewhere. Certainly though go to the auction,
drink the free champagne, enjoy the "show", and most likely leave with a
free poster.
Walt Bilofsky
sports memorabilia. I had no idea of the value of either, but the
auctioneer told me privately I could get a refund if I returned home
and found the values were not reasonable.
After a lot of work over a number of months, I determined to my
satisfaction that the art was worth about 1/3 the auction price. The
sports piece was available on the Internet from the original vendor at
less than 30% of the auction price. (The auctions were not really
competitive - the auctioneer had multiple copies of everything and if
there were more than a couple of bids, he sold one to each bidder at
close to the opening bid.)
This cruise line has its own art department. (Apparently on most
lines the art is sold by an outside company.) I went to them, and
they resolved the matter to my satisfaction. I put in a lot of work
but felt well treated in the end.
Two purchases is not a statistical sample, and it is possible (and the
cruise line claimed) that I misvalued the art and they got sandbagged
by their vendor for the sports item. At the end of it all, they took
care of me as their customer.
Still, based on this experience I would give the following advice:
Obviously, it's best if you prepare beforehand and know the value of
what you are planning to buy. But there are lots of reasons you might
not be prepared for the art auction.
If you just want a souvenir of the trip, buy something that isn't
priced higher than you'd pay for that. Don't up your price range
based on the auctioneer's hype. (OTOH if you want a souvenir, buy
something from a street vendor. I'm still kicking myself for not
grabbing some street art in Venice.)
If you want to buy something more expensive, talk to the auctioneer
before the auction and get an idea of the valuations. Take notes.
Then see if they're willing to stand behind their claims of value with
a money-back guarantee. If not, don't spend more than you're willing
to throw away. Also, be aware of whether you're dealing with the
cruise line or an outside vendor.
Be aware of the difference between prints (essentially posters) and
signed limited edition originals - lithographs, serigraphs or other
works specifically created by the artist to be printed in a single
limited edition. Ask the auctioneer beforehand, and take notes. If
you're not buying a signed limited edition original, the frame is
probably worth more than the art. On our cruise, almost all the art
was signed originals.
One more comment. On our cruise, almost all the pieces auctioned were
pretty large. Big pieces show up better during the auction. Make
sure you have a wall big enough to hang what you're buying. :-)
- Walt Bilofsky
Jonathan Terleski
Walt
Park west seems to be the company on most cruises. Last year on a cruise I
purchased an original Salvidor Dali 4/25 signed twice for $2700. The
auctioneer told us that to take it through customs was going to cost us a
lot and to let them custom frame it and send it 3-4 weeks later. A lady
bought 4 similar prints for over $10,000, all Dali's and was told the same.
4 weeks later Park west sent both myself and the lady unsigned, un-numbered
prints worth $200. Can you say lawsuit! Buyers beware . . The contract
book you receive in the auction states that Park West can substitute another
similar print or painting than the actual one you bid on. This is the case
most of the time. TAKE YOUR PRINT WITH YOU. There is no "Customs" laws
that will cost you to bring it back - the auctioneer lied.
Park West contacted the auctioneer and found out my Dali #4/25 was sold to
someone else. The lady who bought 4 Dali's received only one of the
originals, the other three were sold to other people. We were upset to say
the least. Our prints were from a very specel collection of which there are
only 25 in the world. I dealt with the cruise department manager at Park
West and they said they would make it right. Several months later they
found a Dali, same print, #15/25 and shipped it to me. The only reason that
I was able to get results was because I had paid for an Appraisal $35 that
partially described the art work as a numbered piece. Without that
appraisal Park West would have relied on the contract book description. Get
the appraisals and have them put the artwork number on the appraisal - the
number is not the one in the book as this is a generic number covering the
whole set, there is another number on the back.. Take your print with you -
do not let them take the print below for you to get later. They bill your
ship credit card imediatley- so you own it. Insist on this. Our auctioneer
seemed very knowledgable, refined , and a collector. His other job on the
ship we found out latter was DJ in the disco!
Park west informed us he is no longer working for them.
Turk
Walt Bilofsky <bilo...@toolworks.com> wrote in message
news:ltr67s0tk6an6ki7e...@4ax.com...
Mark Katzenberger
with Park West has been positive. On two trips, we've purchased 3 pieces
total. (all ranging from $80-120)
About two years ago, one of the pieces arrived with a blemish from the
shipping The tissue used to protect the piece as it was rolled adhered to
the pigment in a spot. I called Park West - they were very helpful and sent
me shipping materials to send it back to them - they replaced it with
another from the series.
They handled it very professionally. I would consider purchasing from them
again (as long as I find something I like at a price I consider fair -- as
it is, the past 2 cruises, we found nothing to our liking)
However, my answers to this recurring question are:
"If the work gives you at enjoyment at least equal to what you paid,
you got a good deal"
and:
"Just because you may see a similar piece for more in a gallery,
that DOESN'T necessarily mean that you got a good deal"
Consider the art to be decorative and not an investment.
Mark <-- was told that the Poker Playing Dogs in Purgatory by Dali was an
Artist Proof <g>
Jonathan Terleski
as a company. I did alot of research and found that Park West is a
reputable company. They did solve the problem ASAP with the Dali that I
purchased. It may be that the auctioneer took it upon himself to keep the
best pieces with him to increase his sales and commissions. Park West knew
of this polocy going on and freely admitted it happens. What they did not
like was the fact that the auctioneer did not respond to our request to take
the print with us. They have told me that this issue went all the way up to
the president of Park West. Their integrity was challenged and failed.
They did tell us that new policy would come from this incident.
Another issue for those of you who are collectors: Make sure your nice
pieces get refraimed, as we found out that the materials used by Park West
(the Back cardboard) were not non-acid paper. This can damage a painting or
print over time (years). Also, they ship the framed print with a plastic
front not glass. There is no UV protection with this. I would probably not
get their framing for good pieces.
Mark Katzenberger <mkat...@sirius.com> wrote in message
news:VIQc4.389$lf.4...@nntp1-sf.pbi.net...
Walt Bilofsky
>The contract
>book you receive in the auction states that Park West can substitute another
>similar print or painting than the actual one you bid on.
This generally is because they have a number of prints in the same
edition. They keep one on the ship (probably the lowest numbered),
and send the buyers one from their warehouse. I don't think the
intent is to substitute in any other way.
(The auctioneer will tell you that they made a deal with the artist
for a bunch of prints from the edition. If the artist is dead,
however, and the piece is valuable, you might want to ask how they
made such a deal - or more precisely, how they got a bunch of prints
from an edition where the rarity of the piece has given it value.
Hopefully the answer is not the obvious one ...)
- Walt Bilofsky
Walt Bilofsky
>Another issue for those of you who are collectors: Make sure your nice
>pieces get refraimed, as we found out that the materials used by Park West
>(the Back cardboard) were not non-acid paper. This can damage a painting or
>print over time (years). Also, they ship the framed print with a plastic
>front not glass. There is no UV protection with this. I would probably not
>get their framing for good pieces.
I second this comment. When I asked the cruise line to frame the
piece with UV plexiglass, they said they didn't have any! And the
piece came with framing materials that were not acid-free.
Shipping a good piece in the frame is safer, and the expensive pieces
may include the price of the frame. But your local frame shop can
replace the backing, and put an acid-free sheet between the matting
and the work, fairly cheaply. UV plexi is also a good idea if there
is much daylight where you're hanging the piece, but it can be
expensive.
- Walt Bilofsky
Walt Bilofsky
>The
>auctioneer told us that to take it through customs was going to cost us a
>lot and to let them custom frame it and send it 3-4 weeks later.
Original works of art are supposed to come in duty free. However:
I had a long tangle with U.S. Customs on our last trip, in the course
of which I was informed that there is a definition of "original work
of art". I think it extended to the first ten or so copies, so by
that definition most prints, including signed originals, are not duty
free. So the auctioneer might have been correct. Our auctioneer told
us that works of art are duty free so maybe the inspectors give more
latitude. You can always try claiming "original work of art" on
reentering the country and see if you can get various souvenirs
exempted on that basis.
Many Customs inspectors are experts on some small areas of the regs,
but the level of expertise varies hugely - as does the level of
ethics.
On our last cruise, we went to Istanbul, and planned to buy a rug. On
the principle of "know before you go", I called the local Customs
office and was told that the duty on hand-woven rugs ranged from
something like 5 to 7%. (All these numbers are from memory, and are
more or less right but I am sure they are not exactly what I was
told.) The inspector didn't seem quite sure, so I called again and
got a different answer, but not real different.
The way duty is supposed to work is that the first $400 per person
comes in duty free (this figure may vary depending on where you came
in from), then the next $1000 per person is at 10%, and then they
calculate the real duty on the rest. Usually the real duty rate is
lower than 10%. Clothing is a big exception - it can be about 1/3 the
value of the article - so if they don't apply the $1000 flat rate
amount to the highest duty items, ask them to do so.
Anyway, when we got back into the country, the inspector at JFK
slapped a flat 10% duty on everything, even though we were over the
limit. When I questioned the inspector, he said the duty on most of
our stuff was 20% and he was saving us money.
It turned out he was just lazy and dishonest, and didn't want to
bother figuring the real duty on my detailed list.
I checked on the Customs web site, wrote to the head of the JFK
Customs office, and eventually got a big refund. (They assessed the
rug at around 2.7% - yet another different answer and one I was happy
to receive. I am guessing they gave me wide latitude to make up for
all the hassle.)
Not to say that all Customs inspectors are lazy and dishonest. When
we came in from Hong Kong a couple of years ago, the inspector at SFO
went through our list, calculated the duty, and then spent five
minutes proudly explaining how he used the different rates and the
Most Favored Nation status of some of the countries we'd been in and
applied the $1000 flat rate to give us the lowest possible duty. He
knew his stuff and was happy to be able to demonstrate it.
The lesson is to get some idea of the duties before you leave. See
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/travel/know.htm for the general rules.
Find out the duty rate on any major items you intend to bring back. If
there's a comprehensible Web site for this, I haven't found it - I
call the local Customs office at least twice. Then on reentry to the
US, if you have any doubt about the customs inspector doing it right,
ask to speak to a supervisor.
- Walt Bilofsky
Tom & Linda
item. A print is nothing but a fancy Xerox copy. Unless you get the
original painting, you don't have an original. You do with the rug
however.
And you can talk about acid free and anything else with a print that you
want, but it's still only a fancy Xerox copy. There are no professional
grade, permanent oil paints and linen canvas, or watercolors on 300lb
paper. It's just INK.
I'd recommend buying an original piece of artwork in port instead, or
buy the rug. If you buy a painting, look for linen canvas (an artist
that uses linen instead of cotton shows that he/she really cares). Look
for a real watercolor. Then get it mounted and framed properly. But
skip the Xerox copies.
--Tom
Kmmord
which is a MI company. They send the art work from MI, therefore there is no
liability for duties.
The whole duty issue can get confusing, and I'm a licensed Customs Broker!!
Karen
melt...@my-deja.com
prints (not just color copies), which are produced in different ways.
When a print is produced as a limited edition and signed and numbered,
it has value - and is considered an "original."
If you're not a collector, don't purchase as an investment (and this
doesn't just apply to the auctions). Purchase something you like at a
price you consider reasonable - how much are you willing to pay for a
framed print to go behind your couch (or wherever)... Do you really like
a particular artist, and would it be nice to have a print of their most
famous painting?...
Collectors know what they are looking at, and do their homework. They
will know if they're looking at something of value. On my last cruise,
there was a piece I was interested in, though I did not purchase it.
Had I done so, it would be because it had some personal value - it was a
limited edition of a poster from a large march/protest, which was
signed. I was at that march, and had worked with the people who
comissioned the poster, so it had value to me, but would not have to
most other people, but this is often what gives such pieces value -
there aren't very many people interested, but even fewer are available
(100 numbered prints, 100,000 participant in the march).
In article <387628AB...@worldnet.att.net>,
TKAN...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Regardless of the customs differences, remember that a rug is a real
> item. A print is nothing but a fancy Xerox copy. Unless you get the
> original painting, you don't have an original. You do with the rug
> however.
>
> And you can talk about acid free and anything else with a print that
you
> want, but it's still only a fancy Xerox copy. There are no
professional
> grade, permanent oil paints and linen canvas, or watercolors on 300lb
> paper. It's just INK.
>
> I'd recommend buying an original piece of artwork in port instead, or
> buy the rug. If you buy a painting, look for linen canvas (an artist
> that uses linen instead of cotton shows that he/she really cares).
Look
> for a real watercolor. Then get it mounted and framed properly. But
> skip the Xerox copies.
>
> --Tom
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tom & Linda
"originals".
Now if you can find a numbered and signed Claude Monet original... I'd
be interested. Of course, I couldn't afford it, but ... I can dream ...
I still say, buy an original oil painting while in port. One you like
at a price you can afford. Then you've got the real thing, not a paper
copy.
--Tom
Walt Bilofsky
I don't agree.
A Picasso engraving is a print. He usually cut the original into a
metal plate and printed 50 copies from it. They are considered
originals and some folks think they are worth collecting. :-)
I was given a Mortensen woodcut print as a gift. The artist cuts the
image into a woodblock and prints from it, making a couple of dozen
separate impressions on each piece of paper to produce all the colors
in the work. It takes a month to do an edition. Not exactly a color
Xerox.
There are certainly near-worthless prints sold at cruise auctions, and
it pays to be wary. But there are also items of value. Whether there
are any bargains to be had is another issue - but they're not all junk
just because the artist produced more than one.
That having been said, I wish I'd picked up some street art in Venice
...
- Walt Bilofsky
ev_sta...@yahoo.com
An article, which seemed to be awfully rah-rah, appeared in the Sunday,
January 9 edition of the Miami Herald's travel section.
The article, entitled "Cruise lines drawing on popularity of at-sea art
auctions", is fairly long. Its author is Jay Clarke
(jcl...@herald.com). Perhaps you can find it on-line.
I've been on many cruises and my friend loves these art auctions, so
I've attended many.
I'm pretty cynical, but here's what I've noticed:
1) Most people have never been to one before, so the relationship
between the dealer and passenger is highly unequal;
2) A great deal of pressure is put on passengers who have no access to
a telephone to call a friend/relative before "shelling out";
3) Most of the artists are not household names (except Dali- who is
perhaps too much of a household name... he simply painted and signed
too much);
4) Many of the auctioneers have a spiel that doesn't vary from day to
day or ship to ship. I distrust spiels;
5) I understand that the greatest number of Carnival's complaints come
from "approved stores" and the "art at sea". (Inside source at
Carnival); and
6) Much of the program's profit comes from the shipping costs (this I
heard from an inside source at Carnival)
Yes, I've had a glass of champagne or two, grabbed posters, and
received cheap art note cards. But ultimately I have never bid more
than $5 (as a joke), because I trust no situation in which I can't ask
someone for advice before buying.
The passengers are using these shows as entertainment on "dreaded days
at sea". For some reason Carnival schedules (but under-promotes) the
Children's talent show at the same time as the final art auction.
My advice: skip the auction and go see the kids have a blast. It's
free, charming and when kids see non-parents in the audience, they get
even more excited.
In any case, know what you're getting into before you go to an art
auction!
Tom & Linda
copy of a Thomas Kinkaid... that's marketing hype, not original art.
--Tom