HAL crew wages?
printmn1
not seen it--
Does HAL pay their service staff more? I
realize they are NOT saying that "tipping is
prohibited." Just wondering if cruisers
interpret their "tipping not required" policy
as "no tipping" how the service crew ends up
salary wise.
Mason Barge
wrote:
No matter how hard management tries, human beings in service jobs are
not capable of providing that degree of real warmth unless they are
reasonably happy. I am so convinced that HAL's employees are decently
paid that I don't even question the wage scale.
And I will say, I have never been on a HAL cruise where I was anything
but delighted to leave a good tip for everyone who waited on me.
--
Mason Barge
"People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."
-- Abraham Lincoln
haco
From the past when the HAL was Dutch owned certainly. At the moment I am not
sure, but after discussions with some Indonesian service crew, on my last
cruise, they confirm, that payment on HAL are better than on many other
cruiseline.
Officers are paid accordingly the Dutch wage scales for seamen.
Haco
printmn1 <prin...@bellsouth.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
3CE13521...@bellsouth.net...
Elliott L. Shapiro
paid 6-10 times higher than the other cruise lines.
Elliott
Enjoy life. This is NOT a rehearsal.
Ray Goldenberg
<esha...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>According to an interview with the CEO, several years ago, they are
>paid 6-10 times higher than the other cruise lines.
Hi Elliot,
Deja vu all over again. <:+)
I think this was a rumor that he said this and no one could ever back
up with fact or source one way or the other..
Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Mason Barge
<esha...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>According to an interview with the CEO, several years ago, they are
>paid 6-10 times higher than the other cruise lines.
>
That is absurd. They would be out of business if they paid double.
Elliott L. Shapiro
nothing is not a whole lot.
On Tue, 14 May 2002 22:10:30 -0400, Mason Barge
<masonbar...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 May 2002 17:43:40 -0700, Elliott L. Shapiro
><esha...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>
>>According to an interview with the CEO, several years ago, they are
>>paid 6-10 times higher than the other cruise lines.
>>
>That is absurd. They would be out of business if they paid double.
ian
'Life at Sea" one of the questions asked was what the are paid. They didn't
give a specific number saying that was a privacy issue but they said all
members of the staff (officers, serve staff, etc.) are paid a moderate to
high wage for their country of origin. They contrasted that to $50/month for
the serve staff on other lines.
This left us puzzeled about tipping and I finally decided that I would tip
the same as I would on any other cruise line since why should they be
penalized for working for a cruise line which paid them more and I didn't
pay a premium for the cruise because of HAL's "Tipping not required policy"
Ian
"printmn1" <prin...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3CE13521...@bellsouth.net...
Mike Downing
understand that they are not coming close to u.s. wages for similar
jobs.. that is why you have a crew of 1,000 or more with only 10-15 u.s.
citizens(usually musicians or entertainers) on board....
George Leppla
"ian" <icra...@hotmail.com> wrote
> We were on the Maasdam the last week of April and we attended a seminar on
> 'Life at Sea" one of the questions asked was what the are paid.
This bothers me. I feel it is VERY impolite to ask anyone how much they
make yet many cruise passengers feel they have a right to know this
information. There is a social standing issue here because the same people
who would ask a waiter or busboy would never think of asking the Captain.
In any case, I find it very intrusive and in poor taste.
>They didn't
> give a specific number saying that was a privacy issue
Good for them. Perhaps when someone asks this question they should be asked
to stand and state what they do for a living and how much they make per year
before receiving an answer.
--
George in PA
Countryside Travel
www.countryside-travel.com
Diane
PSSSST, Ray, I said it. And, I heard it directly from Kirk Lanterman at an
interview onboard the Maasdam on September 8th 2000. We were at sea. We had an
Ask the CEO session.
I posted it here and was told that "he wasn't necessarily telling the truth".
Believe what you want.
He said it. We can't verify it's true what they make, but he did make the
statement. Didn't see any bar waiters in the lounge look at him like he had two
heads or anything.
His statements were simple. He pays more in a base wage. He gives them
uniforms, air fare to and from home as part of contract, medical and dental care
on board, and they may accept tips voluntarily given.
He did state that their pay was "6 to 10 times the industry average". Whatever
that means.
He also stated that they made 10 or more times what people working in the
Phillippines or in Indonesia made. This meant they lived better at home than
their fellow countrymen.
He stated that he wanted his employees to do a good job regardless of whether it
meant getting a tip or not. He said he wanted his bar waiters to help and serve
everyone instead of hustling drinks for automatic tips.
People tip. Many of us tip well, because of all of the extra service. But, if
the waiter is bringing in $500 a month instead of $50 a month as a base, he
isn't worrying about hustling to feed his family at home. He knows good service
will translate into good tips. He also doesn't have to earn money to pay for
uniforms, plane fare, etc. that others may have to do.
Diane
Duncan Craig
the interpretation some passengers have of the "tipping not required"
phrase.
On our first HAL cruise, I admit that I was under the impression that
"tipping not required" meant that you should only tip in circumstances where
a staff member had gone way beyond what is expected.....so we tipped very
little. I have felt guilty about that ever since, and we have always tipped
appropriately on our many subsequent HAL cruises.
So, although it appears that the ship staff are paid better than on other
cruise lines, I think the staff also suffer the effects of inadvertent
misinterpretation of HAL's stated "tipping not trequired" policy.
Johnn...@webtv.net
500. bucks per month. ...But apparently it's quite an honour to get the
job, as there are so many people, but so few jobs. The money doesn't
sound like much, but it's probably worth a fortune when converted to his
home currency... Plus one must remember.. The room and board are
included. He told me he wouldn't want his wife doing this type of work
as although they are encouraged to engage in conversation with the
guests, they are never allowed to sit down. The work days are long, and
so are the days spent away from home. Another female bar maid told
me they have their own Filipino cook, but she gets tired of what seems
to be a steady diet of chicken.
I was really impressed by how genuinely nice the staff were.... In spite
of some of the cruisers being so obnoxious-- and over the most
insignificant things ... Anyone who serves the public must have a thick
skin. ....Jon
Mason Barge
Maybe he's including things like Chinese freighters -- I doubt that
seamen from third-world countries make more than 10% as much as a HAL
cabin attendant.
But it's a bogus statement. I don't doubt HAL is at the top of the
scale for pay rates. Like I said, you just don't get that kind of
great service from unhappy employees. However, consider how much
money we are talking about, using "8 times".
First off, we can eliminate any non-tip jobs completely. For
instance, the industry range for a croupier is $1,200 to $2,400, plus
extras (transportation to and from home, benefits, room and board,
etc.). (My source for these figures is http://www.cruisejobline.com/
) Does HAL pay these people $10,000 per month? Not a chance. They
pay possibly at the high end of the scale, but their croupiers are not
much different from those on Celebrity.
Now look at an entry-level position not requiring good English skills,
such as deck steward. The industry range is $1,000-$1,600. Does HAL
pay these people $10,000 per month, or does Princess pay them $200 per
month? Again, no.
I don't doubt that HAL's base pay for cabin stewards and dining room
waiters is considerably higher than say Princess', since there has to
be some percentage of passengers who do not tip at the going rate due
to simple ignorance. HAL's employees in these categories are clearly
happy and therefore, one can infer, fairly paid. But they do get
good tips from some decent percentage of their guests -- I am always
generous on HAL, because the service is always wonderful -- and the
ones on other lines also sometimes get less than normal tips.
Companies with much higher labor costs than their competition do not
stay in business, unless there is some compensating factor such as
better market access, unique technology, etc. If HAL paid its
employees even double the industry standard, it would not survive very
long. Its product is simply not that much better than Celebrity's or
Princess'.
>He also stated that they made 10 or more times what people working in the
>Phillippines or in Indonesia made. This meant they lived better at home than
>their fellow countrymen.
There is absolutely no doubt that this is true, and I would think 10
times is conservative. But it's true on all cruise lines. An
Indonesian cabin steward can easily make $24,000 per year, compared to
average wages of less than $2,400 per annum in Indonesia for a
housekeeper.
Gross National Income per capita for Indonesia is roughly $50-80 per
month, compared to about $2,000 in first world countries. (My source
is www. worldbank.com)
The average wage of an Indonesian hotel worker, in Indonesia, is
550,000 rupiahs per month (http://www.sdds.or.id/sdds.html ) which
equals about $60. Some significant adjustment must be made, however,
for English language skills and personality of cruise line employees.
Education pays! Also, of course, there is some differential for being
away from one's family, and they do work extremely hard.
So my thought is that the gap is probably more than 10 times.
>He stated that he wanted his employees to do a good job regardless of whether it
>meant getting a tip or not. He said he wanted his bar waiters to help and serve
>everyone instead of hustling drinks for automatic tips.
The same excellent attitude that keeps me coming back.
>People tip. Many of us tip well, because of all of the extra service. But, if
>the waiter is bringing in $500 a month instead of $50 a month as a base, he
>isn't worrying about hustling to feed his family at home. He knows good service
>will translate into good tips. He also doesn't have to earn money to pay for
>uniforms, plane fare, etc. that others may have to do.
I could be convinced that HAL pays its dining-room waiters 100 times
more in base salary than other cruise lines, but the figure would be
limited to dining-room waiters and would be meaningless.
First, on a ship with 1,200 passenger capacity, you will have 40 or 45
dining-room waiters out of a total of, what, 500-600 employees?
Second, the statement is largely meaningless and certainly misleading
concerning how much money the employee makes. If this is the source
of the captain's claim of "6 to 10 times more", he needs a bit of
skilled cross-examination from yours truly.
Waiters on cruise ships do not get their income from base salary, on
HAL or any other line. With say 25-30 guests at say an average of
$2.50 per day in tips, dining-room waiters will get somewhere between
$50 and $100 day in tips. If HAL kicks in $500 of base pay per month,
where Princess gives $50, it is not correct to say that the HAL waiter
is making 10 times as much. The base pay increase is to make up for a
shortfall in tips, which HAL must collect from the passengers as part
of the cruise price.
The same is true for cabin stewards but to a much smaller extent,
since they are responsible for fewer passengers. Even cruise lines
with very heavyhanded tipping procedures (such as Princess) must
include some significant base salary for cabin stewards. I am guess
this is where the "six times" figure comes from.
HAL has made a business decision that its "tipping not required"
policy is a marketing tool that is worth the increase in base salary
and will allow it to price its cruises a little higher. It sure works
for me -- I will gladly pay $5 more for my cruise, to make up for
passengers who don't tip. I love the "guest" attitude of HAL's
employees.
Anyway, although one might say that this hypothetical ten times higher
base salary (which sounds like a reasonable guess to me) is meaningful
in terms of HAL's business model, it is misleading to use it when
talking about the compensation of employees. HAL may "pay" its
dining-room waiters and cabin stewards 6-10 times as much as
Celebrity, but they don't "earn" 6-10 times more than the Celebrity
employees.
Finally, as to the extras, it is my understanding that most cruise
lines pay one round-trip airfare per contract for their employees and
provide on-board medical insurance. Uniforms, I don't know about.
Elliott L. Shapiro
and I found that frequent repeaters tended to tip nothing (about 1/3
of those polled), infrequent repeaters (1/3) tended to tip $25 or so
for the week and the newer passengers tended to tip the "industry
standard" Many of the older passengers indicated that they absolutely
loved the service but the "no tipping Required" translated to them as
"No Tipping" and that they had seen the same crew help on numerous
cruises, and although they did not tip, the service did not
deteriorate.
ian
specifics by job or person. I think what they were most interested in was do
the serve staff receive reasonable pay given that HAL has the tipping not
required policy.
Ian
"George Leppla" <geo...@cruisemaster.com> wrote in message
news:XrsE8.23474$Ze4.2...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Diane
"ian" <icra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NxBE8.1229$V71.9...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> From the way the question was asked I don't think they were asking for
> specifics by job or person. I think what they were most interested in was
do
> the serve staff receive reasonable pay given that HAL has the tipping not
> required policy.
>
> Ian
This is precisely what happened on Maasdam in 2000. Lanterman was asked
about his confusing "no tipping required" policy, and why they didn't change
it because it looked to be hurting the staff that normally would rely on
tips.
It was his response that he pays the "normally tipped" staff positions more
than these people would be paid on other ships.
He also responded that he does so in order to have them not relying on tips
to make enough to pay their expenses and live. His explanation was simple.
He paid them more "guaranteed wages" than other similar positions on other
cruise lines. I am talking bar waiters, waiters, and cabin stewards here,
not the normal cruise staff, ship crew, and officers/deck personnel.
If someone had adequate base pay, uniforms, medical, dental and air fare
paid by their employer, then tips weren't the "make or break" factor in
their lives.
That is where he was coming from.
Is it the best way to do things?? I can't say. I do know that many of these
Indonesian and Filipino staff had years of experience in general, and were
happy with their jobs.
Many of us choose benefits and security and a healthy work environment over
a higher paycheck. Why should we think that someone who has decided that
HAL's policy allows them a better work environment without the constant
stress of hustling to pay the bills is wrong, and that they should go
elsewhere to potentially make more?
Anyway, when on HAL, I tip very well to those who make my time onboard a
real joy, and those who may be going through the motions and not performing
well, -- hey, they get very little. I have only "stiffed" a bar staff
member once, and he most certainly needed an attitude adjustment. He was
more interested in chatting with the other staff members than in getting the
drinks to the customers. I wonder if that employee still works there.
Diane
Paul Motter
cannot say definitively what a room steward makes. I can see the
possibility that they are paid 5 times more than other ships because
it is understood that on other ships their tips are most of their
salary. 5 times next-to-nothing (say $50/month) is still very little.
Indonesia has a very low cost of living and those fellows do not need
much to feel very rich. I have a feeling they get some tips, like
maybe 20-30% of their cabins, but I believe most cruisers take the
"tipping not required" policy pretty seriously.
HALs policy is tipping not required and I believe they mean it. They
do state you can tip if you want to only one time - at the end of the
cruise during the disembarkation talk, but they do not push for tips
during the cruise.
Linda Coffman
>This bothers me. I feel it is VERY impolite to ask anyone how much they
>make yet many cruise passengers feel they have a right to know this
>information.
I'm not surprised that someone would be gauche enough to ask that. It was probably the same person
we once met on a ship who insisted on pressuring everyone into telling him how much they had paid
for the cruise. His reasoning was that we should all be up in arms because some people paid more
than others. He really made fellow passengers uncomfortable one day at lunch when we happened to be
seated at a table with him. I told him it was in poor taste to discuss money and he went on a RANT
about it. Poor man should have increased his meds...
>Good for them. Perhaps when someone asks this question they should be asked
>to stand and state what they do for a living and how much they make per year
>before receiving an answer.
Excellent suggestion!
-----
Linda Coffman
Cruise Diva
http://cruisediva.com
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