The Pefect Crime
Barry B
Carnival Cruise Lines and Park West Galleries have devised the perfect
crime. Here is how it works, it's a stroke of genius really. You're
enjoying your "funship" cruise, the food, the drinks, the exciting
ports of call. Numerous announcements are made by the cruise director
about the exciting art auction to be held on board. Go on down and
check out the vast selection of original artworks to be offered for
sale at auction well below the prices you would have to pay on terra
firma. Hey, and there is free champagne and free gifts just for going
on down. Once you've had a few glasses of that champagne the
festivities begin. The Auctioneer, an employee of Park West Galleries
is very knowledgeable, telling the history of both the artists and the
piece of art you are viewing. What makes it different, valuable and
worth owning.
Then the auction begins, not the type of bidding you may be accustomed
to at other auctions you might have been to. The auctioneer tells
what the piece might sell for on land and offers up a starting bid
considerably lower than that, in fact nearly half the of land price.
Attendees are timid at first, heck most of them know little if
anything about art or it's value. At the acution I attended there was
one couple that bid on numerous paintings. Some of them very
expensive, in excess of ten thousand dollars. Wow, these people are
really spending money, these must really be a bargain! It occurred to
me later that these people were likely planted there to create the
illusion Park West and Carnival wanted , that this art was a huge
bargain.
Following their lead the timid begin to get involved to get a piece of
the action. What's funny and different is that you don't have to
outbid anyone else, as long as you chime in with a bid equal to Park
West's minimum starting bid you win. Surprise, so does everyone else.
It seems that there are enough of these "original" works of art to go
around. Some of them were purchased by as many as ten people, gee
wiz, we can all have one of these "originals"
Now is when it gets interesting. Buyers must pay a 15% buyers premium
to the auction house (Park West) for their services, after all, that's
how auction houses make money. There is a generous offer however. If
you apply for a Park West Galleries charge account half of the buyers'
premium will be forgiven. What a deal, sure I'll bite give me one of
those credit cards why pay cash if getting the card will save half of
the buyers' premium?. This is one of the most ingenious parts of this
scam. Once approved for the credit card and you've signed for it
there is no backing out. They don't have to worry about buyers
remorse when you sober up as they would if you put it on your regular
Visa or Mastercard. There is no satisfaction guarantee with their
credit card. The minute you sign, the entire amount of the art you
bought is authorized on the card.
If there are problems later, like perhaps you find out that the
bargain you purchased for three thousand dollars is not worth as much
as the frame it's in there is no recourse. Carnival will claim that
Park West is an independent company over which they have no control
and since Park West sold you the goods on the high sees there is no
recourse against them. It's the same set of laws at work that allow
gambling on the ships. They are in international waters and there are
no laws to protect us like back home.
It turns out that Park West Galleries owned the art works all along,
not some third party desirous of selling there artwork as you might
expect. So, not only have they charged a buyers premium to cover
their "costs" to run the auction and provide a profit, they've also
made a tidy sum on the sale price of the piece which they split in
some unknown ratio with Carnival Cruise Lines. Boy I wish I'd thought
of this one! Just imagine how rich you can get selling lithographs
(posters) for thousands of dollars.
So, how do you know what you're buying? Not to worry, for fee (about
$40) Park West will provide an appraisal of the piece as well as a
certificate of authenticity. Does something sound fishy to you there?
I don't think it's proper for the owner of a piece of art to appraise
the value of that item. It's not independent and it's not impartial.
But if they've broken any laws, it won't matter, because there are no
laws on the high seas.
It my particular case, I purchased four pieces, a Salvidor Dali, a
Thomas Kinkade and two Peter Max's totaling a little over six thousand
dollars along with some other "free" bonus works. Three of them
arrived in about a month after we disembarked from the ship. Being
curious I called Park West to learn about the whereabouts of the
remaining Peter Max, There representative from their cruise line
auction department told me that they did not have the painting and
that she would deliver a request to the owner of Park West to issue a
credit. I thanked her profusely as that painting had been selected by
my traveling companion as a gift for her mother that was needed by a
specific date. Since Deb at park West doubted they would be able to
locate on time.
Several weeks later I called again to check on the status of the
credit and was told that Park West Suddenly had 141 of the paintings
in question, Umbrella Man by Peter Max. Oh my, Mr. Max must have been
very busy painting all of these original pieces just to satisfy the
orders of park West Galleries. Again, the haunting question. These
are limited production lithographs hand embellished and signed by
Peter Max. The "limited" part is what would make them worth
something. It strikes me funny that you can just make some more,
they're supposed to be limited
If you go on a Carnival Cruise, do yourself a favor. Pay for your
drinks. Don't fall into the trap of free drinks that could wind up
costing you thousands of dollars.
This brings to mind a whole new meaning to "Pirates of the Caribbean"
Howie
Stay away from "art" auctions on ships.
Howie
Jim
If you go on a Carnival Cruise, do yourself a favor. Pay for your
drinks. Don't fall into the trap of free drinks that could wind up
costing you thousands of dollars.
This brings to mind a whole new meaning to "Pirates of the Caribbean"
That's it BLAME Carnival for the drinks OH....free of course.....that
caused you to fall into their trap. On a serious and positive
level....Barry, thanks for keeping the cruise prices down. JDR
Charles
<beac...@aol.com> wrote:
> This brings to mind a whole new meaning to "Pirates of the Caribbean"
Many of us believe these "art auctions" are phoney and have posted to
that effect. There are also many who don't agree and think the auctions
are great. I have to say that I enjoyed reading your expose.
--
Charles
David C Jacobson
"Barry B" <beac...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:162d5790.0405...@posting.google.com...
> The Perfect Crime
> Carnival Cruise Lines and Park West Galleries have devised the perfect
> crime. Here is how it works, it's a stroke of genius really. You're
> enjoying your "funship" cruise, the food, the drinks, the exciting
> ports of call. Numerous announcements are made by the cruise director
> about the exciting art auction to be held on board. Go on down and
> check out the vast selection of original artworks to be offered for
> sale at auction well below the prices you would have to pay on terra
> firma. Hey, and there is free champagne and free gifts just for going
> on down. Once you've had a few glasses of that champagne the
> festivities begin. The Auctioneer, an employee of Park West Galleries
> is very knowledgeable, telling the history of both the artists and the
> piece of art you are viewing. What makes it different, valuable and
> worth owning.
Barry- I appreciate your comments very much, and I agree with much of what
you have written. I can only say that in my situation, buying some art on
two cruises has been helpful for me since I had a limited budget, few
pictures in my home and no knowledge about art.
I have been on two Carnival ships. The first one was the Conquest in
November 2003. I did not know about the art auctions going in and ended up
attending three of the auctions. I ended up purchasing about $400 in art.
One was a Kinkade, one by Barbara Wood, and another one by an artist named
Dubac. I also got three freebies for sitting until the end of the auction. I
learned that Hobby Lobby has great prices for frames.So while I am sure I
did not get the "deal" they are claiming, for my meaker budget I can
complain too much for what I got.
>Now is when it gets interesting. Buyers must pay a 15% buyers premium
> to the auction house (Park West) for their services, after all, that's
> how auction houses make money. There is a generous offer however. If
> you apply for a Park West Galleries charge account half of the buyers'
> premium will be forgiven. What a deal, sure I'll bite give me one of
> those credit cards why pay cash if getting the card will save half of
> the buyers' premium?. This is one of the most ingenious parts of this
> scam. Once approved for the credit card and you've signed for it
> there is no backing out. They don't have to worry about buyers
> remorse when you sober up as they would if you put it on your regular
> Visa or MasterCard. There is no satisfaction guarantee with their
> credit card. The minute you sign, the entire amount of the art you
> bought is authorized on the card.
Earlier this month, I was on the Holiday, and ended up buying one picture. I
also applied for the credit card, as the auctioneer stated that if I applied
I would receive a painting "appraised" at $500. Again, my story has a happy
ending: I did not get the card and still got to keep the "$500" painting.
>So, how do you know what you're buying? Not to worry, for fee (about
> $40) Park West will provide an appraisal of the piece as well as a
> certificate of authenticity. Does something sound fishy to you there?
> I don't think it's proper for the owner of a piece of art to appraise
> the value of that item. It's not independent and it's not impartial.
> But if they've broken any laws, it won't matter, because there are no
> laws on the high seas.
They tried to push the appraisals and the frames, but I turned those down. I
got them to put up for bid some of the lithographs I got on the Conquest, so
that Park West would say what the appraisal was.
> It turns out that Park West Galleries owned the art works all along,
> not some third party desirous of selling there artwork as you might
> expect. So, not only have they charged a buyers premium to cover
> their "costs" to run the auction and provide a profit, they've also
> made a tidy sum on the sale price of the piece which they split in
> some unknown ratio with Carnival Cruise Lines. Boy I wish I'd thought
> of this one! Just imagine how rich you can get selling lithographs
> (posters) for thousands of dollars.
Is it the Perfect Crime- I would say it is almost, just like Bingo and some
other common cruise promotions, like those great deals on Tanzanite and
other jewelry in Cozumel and other ports with your "VIP" coupon from your
"Smart Shopper".
> If you go on a Carnival Cruise, do yourself a favor. Pay for your
> drinks. Don't fall into the trap of free drinks that could wind up
> costing you thousands of dollars.
> This brings to mind a whole new meaning to "Pirates of the Caribbean"
I would echo that, and as many have shared, I have to keep in mind that
Carnival (and other cruise lines) want me to spend as much money as possible
on my 5 or 7 day cruise. I am not faulting them since this is capitalism and
free market economy at work, just that the cruiser needs to think or be
forewarned before getting involved with art auctions at sea.My next cruise
in December will not have the art auction as a part of my schedule.
Sorry for the long post, but I found your comments very helpful.
Howie
> Thomas Kinkade
I think the cruise lines ought to provide a support group for all the
victims of Kinkade.
Howie
fradybunch
were asking, why worry what it was worth? When we buy art, we buy art we
like, we buy it to keep, not for it's value. If you like the art, and you
feel like you paid a fair price, even if you found out it wasn't worth what
they said (unless you're an investor, in which case you should have known
better), enjoy it and know better next time.
Sandi
SNUMBER6
>I always figured that if you like the painting enough to pay the price they
>were asking, why worry what it was worth? When we buy art, we buy art we
>like, we buy it to keep, not for it's value.
That's true ... The intrinsic value of artwork is opinion ... The actual value
is what you paid for it ... until someone else buys it from you for either more
or less ... Even if no one in the room would pay that amount ... If you like it
...that's what it's worth ...
That said ... I'd never buy art on a ship ... too limited ... and I get the
impression they are selling the items they want to get rid of ...
Be seeing you
In the Village
Number 6
Tobie Gerbrandt
Park West is being phased out on Carnival Cruise Lines.
I sat in on the Art Auction on the Carnival Legend on our cruise (30
April,2004) and they explained that they have had numerous complaints about
how Park West operates,and are now (on a ship-by ship basis) changing their
art program to Princess Cruises' art system.
They never sell anything that they don't have in stock, and they sell it as
it is presented (with framing choice if it is shown with frame). I was
surprised to see NO pieces by Thomas Kincaid. Wouldn't think of buying a
Kincaid anyhow. Although I kind of like his work, he has flooded the market
so much that it is very unlikely that it will increase in value as some
other artists work does.
--
Tobie>>>>on an Island in the Pacific
"Charles" <fo...@his.com.remove.invalid> wrote in message
news:280520041741572810%fo...@his.com.remove.invalid...
Robert Clarkson
whether it was from Park West or another company. First of all, I have never
seen an "original" piece of art on a ship, and the prints or lithographs are
vastly overpriced. Do you really think you are going to get fine art or a
bargain on a ship? Along this same vein, do you think you are going to get a
bargain on jewelry at any Carribbean port?
"SNUMBER6" <snum...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040529095754...@mb-m01.aol.com...
Howie
Robert Clarkson wrote:
> I just do not understand why anyone would want to buy art on a cruise
> whether it was from Park West or another company. First of all, I have never
> seen an "original" piece of art on a ship, and the prints or lithographs are
> vastly overpriced. Do you really think you are going to get fine art or a
> bargain on a ship?
I'm with you.
Along this same vein, do you think you are going to get a
> bargain on jewelry at any Carribbean port?
Yes, buying fine jewelry is a hobby of mine; and I don't think, I know
that I have found major bargains in the Caribbean.
Howie
Charles
<ditt...@cox.net> wrote:
> few pictures in my home and no knowledge about art.
That is what they count on, that most people have little knowledge
about art.
--
Charles
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Tobie Gerbrandt wrote:
> FYI,
>
> Park West is being phased out on Carnival Cruise Lines.
>
> I sat in on the Art Auction on the Carnival Legend on our cruise (30
> April,2004) and they explained that they have had numerous complaints about
> how Park West operates,and are now (on a ship-by ship basis) changing their
> art program to Princess Cruises' art system.
>
> They never sell anything that they don't have in stock, and they sell it as
> it is presented (with framing choice if it is shown with frame).
Very interesting, thanks Tobie! We enjoy the art auctions on a cruise
and buy only what we want to hang in our home.
We did have a couple of problems with deliivery from Park West in the
past. Now when we buy at one of their auctions, we only buy inexpensive
pcs, unless we can carry it home with us. We have also bought from
Princess and had no problems at all and we did buy an expensive pc of
art from them.
sue
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Robert Clarkson wrote:
> I just do not understand why anyone would want to buy art on a cruise
> whether it was from Park West or another company. First of all, I have never
> seen an "original" piece of art on a ship,
I have seen "original" pcs at art auctions on a ship and I have seen
people buying them.
sue
Charles
<kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I have seen "original" pcs at art auctions on a ship and I have seen
> people buying them.
I have seen those original pieces too........what appeared to be the
same original piece on several ships. I don't think though that they
were moving it around from ship to ship.
--
Charles
Tom & Linda
"Tobie Gerbrandt" <chez...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Im1uc.619770$Ig.178742@pd7tw2no...
> FYI,
>
> Park West is being phased out on Carnival Cruise Lines.
>
> I sat in on the Art Auction on the Carnival Legend on our cruise (30
> April,2004) and they explained that they have had numerous complaints
about
> how Park West operates,and are now (on a ship-by ship basis) changing
their
> art program to Princess Cruises' art system.
Corporate Translation: Park West set up a VERY profitibal "rip off" on our
ships.... now it's time to dump them and take over all the "rip off" profits
ourselves.
Corporate Spin Doctoring: Make an excuse to do it (they had poor customer
service, etc.) and look like a hero doing it.
--Tom
Tom & Linda
"fradybunch" <frady...@ellijay.com> wrote in message
news:c9a1q...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> I always figured that if you like the painting enough to pay the price
they
> were asking, why worry what it was worth?
Because unless you're loaded, and money is no object... you might be able
the get the same $2000 print at an art store like AC Moore for $30.
On the other hand... if you're loaded... go and buy an original oil on
canvas by a great artist. You might pay $25 million, but in 10 years it
could be worth $200 million.
The objective is to keep you from being ripped off... even if you're happy
being ripped off.
--Tom
Sue and Kevin Mullen
What I am talking about when I say originals, is "originals", not the
seriagraphs(sp) or lithographs(sp) that they also auction off.
sue
Charles
<kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> What I am talking about when I say originals, is "originals", not the
> seriagraphs(sp) or lithographs(sp) that they also auction off.
See Tom's post about assembly line. He might be right. I have seen
stuff that looks very much the same.
If you enjoy what you buy I am not saying don't make a purchase but I
do think that these auctions are a racket.
--
Charles
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Charles wrote:
> In article <2hrs7kF...@uni-berlin.de>, Sue and Kevin Mullen
> <kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>What I am talking about when I say originals, is "originals", not the
>>seriagraphs(sp) or lithographs(sp) that they also auction off.
>
>
> See Tom's post about assembly line. He might be right. I have seen
> stuff that looks very much the same.
I saw his post and disagree with him on the subject of art, but am not
going to get into it here. Tom knows that Kevin and I enjoy the art
auctions and even took a picture of us at one on the Zenith.
The originals that I am talking about are "one of a kind" and sell for
$20/30/50 thousand and more. These are not what Tom calls assembly line
art, they are one of a kind.
> If you enjoy what you buy I am not saying don't make a purchase but I
> do think that these auctions are a racket.
They are only a racket to those who do not learn what they are dealing
with. At every art auction they tell you about all the fees involved
and this is also spelled out either on the bid cards or in the booklet
they give you. Art auctions on land are just the same as at sea. Just as
has been said about buying jewelry, the same is true with art. Buy what
you "like" and can afford and want to hang in your home. Don't buy
something in order to make money on it, unless you know the market and
how to go about buying and selling art. We have some pcs that we think
will be worth a lot later on, but we are not experts and only bought
them because we enjoy looking at them every day.
sue
Tom & Linda
"Sue and Kevin Mullen" <kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2hsj0mF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
> > The originals that I am talking about are "one of a kind" and sell for
> $20/30/50 thousand and more. These are not what Tom calls assembly line
> art, they are one of a kind.
At those prices... it might be the real deal.
I would just be leary personally of Park West - simply because I have such a
negative opinion of them that I wouldn't trust them with anything. I'd
rather pay serious money at an art gallery in NYC, Bermuda, Santa Fe, Cape
Cod, etc. Even at a place like Piazza Navona in Rome.
$50,000 is a LOT of money. That's like 15-20 cruises for many of us. Or a
nice new Corvette convertible.
I'd hate to see anyone spend that kind of money and end up ripped off.
> > If you enjoy what you buy I am not saying don't make a purchase but I
> > do think that these auctions are a racket.
>
> They are only a racket to those who do not learn what they are dealing
> with. At every art auction they tell you about all the fees involved
> and this is also spelled out either on the bid cards or in the booklet
> they give you. Art auctions on land are just the same as at sea. Just as
> has been said about buying jewelry, the same is true with art.
Yes, but there is an intrinsic value to jewelry - such as the value of the
gold itself. You can't get ripped off too much if you pay relatively close
to the value of the gold by weight.
Paintings on the other hand have little value in terms of paint and canvas.
--Tom
Tom & Linda
"Charles" <fo...@his.com.remove.invalid> wrote in message
> In article <2hrs7kF...@uni-berlin.de>, Sue and Kevin Mullen
> <kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > What I am talking about when I say originals, is "originals", not the
> > seriagraphs(sp) or lithographs(sp) that they also auction off.
>
> See Tom's post about assembly line. He might be right. I have seen
> stuff that looks very much the same.
There was a movie a few years ago about one of those artists.
Much of that work is done with pallet knives (instead of brushes) because
pallet knife work can be done very quickly. Pallet knife work is noticeable
in the paintings that have a very rough, swirly look, with very thick paint.
It's often done with scenes of Italian villages on the water. I've seen
thousands of those done in pallet knife that look virtually identical. They
may move a building or a tree, or change the shape of the clouds, switch the
water from the left side to the right side, etc. ... but it's the same
painting.
--Tom
Sue and Kevin Mullen
Tom & Linda wrote:
> "Sue and Kevin Mullen" <kjmu...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> I would just be leary personally of Park West - simply because I have such a
> negative opinion of them that I wouldn't trust them with anything. I'd
> rather pay serious money at an art gallery in NYC, Bermuda, Santa Fe, Cape
> Cod, etc.
We have had problems with delivery from Park West a couple of times, but
we did get our money back. As a result we won't buy any expensive(for
us) paintings from them, unless we can carry them home. I have seen
artwork by some of the artists that we like, being sold at similar
prices elsewhere.
> $50,000 is a LOT of money. That's like 15-20 cruises for many of us. Or a
> nice new Corvette convertible.
>
> I'd hate to see anyone spend that kind of money and end up ripped off.
You would have to be a fool, to spend that kind of money, unless you
really know what you are doing. I myself if I could spend that kind of
money, would spend it on cruising.
sue
Tom & Linda
In about another year... I'll be spending it on college for Jonathan.
--Tom
Sue and Kevin Mullen
We have been through the college bit already. What schools is he
thinking about and what major?
sue
SNUMBER6
>In about another year... I'll be spending it on college for Jonathan.
One son got a near free ride for soccer ... and my youngest is getting all
tuition room and board and fees but $4K year at Albert Dorman Honors College at
NJIT ...
leaves nice money for cruises ... :-)
Tom & Linda
> >From: "Tom & Linda" tkan...@optonline.net
>
> >In about another year... I'll be spending it on college for Jonathan.
>
> One son got a near free ride for soccer ... and my youngest is getting all
> tuition room and board and fees but $4K year at Albert Dorman Honors
College at
> NJIT ...
> leaves nice money for cruises ... :-)
>
Excellent!!!
--Tom
schall...@webtv.net
BILL