What is.......
da_mi...@my-deja.com
Da Mikeman
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jim Stroot
and use of larger, single-use pieces (where many bricks were once used
instead) in recent sets. The complexity of the sets were reduced, as was the
difficulty level in building. This was done so that younger children could
easily make the transistion from Duplo to the themes of System and even
Technic (Throwbots, Cyberslam) at an earlier age. However, this development
has alienated the adult collector market, which is actually the largest
consumer group for the product based on sales.
LEGO seemed to embrace the term briefly, using it on their website catalog
when referring to the new Town theme or " Town Jr.," which has since become
City Center.
Juniorization has mainly been prevalent in sets released since 1996,
although the origins stretch back much earlier, especially in the late 80s
and early 90s. Molded wall peices, usually with windows in them and printed
bricks on the exteriors, have been around in Castle sets since the early
80s. The release of the molded hull sections for the floating Boats, and
particularly for the Pirates line, introduced in 1989, foreshadow Juniorized
sets now. In the past, hulls had been constructed entirely out of bricks,
like in the USS Constellation set from the mid 70s. Also during this time is
the introduction of the "big, ugly, rock piece" or "BURP," and the thin,
raised baseplates with pits and ramps. The raised baseplates, in new molded
forms, are still found in current releases, such as the Adventurers, Rock
Raiders, and the 2000 Castle line.
Jim
<da_mi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:84m1kv$ln7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Ice
>
> What do you mean by Junorized?
> Da Mikeman
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
I consider it to mean that where in the past a number of bricks where once
used to make a section or thing, now one or two specialty pieces are used.
Go to the Brickshelf and look up the Yellow Castle #375. There weren't any
5-high bricks, plate/parapet pieces, and the horses were made from bricks
too. When something is juniorized, it means fewer pieces and less
flexiblity. Some juniorized pieces are valued, but many are not. Again,
check out old sets compared to new ones. The new ones require less from you
than the old ones did. One reason why I like what Ritvik does with their
Mega Bloks pro-model stuff. The give you a ton of bricks to make neat things
out of. JMO.
Ice
Richard Parsons
>... the adult collector market, which is actually the largest
>consumer group for the product based on sales.
Wow. Where does this idea come from? All the modelling I have done suggests
to me that AFOLs are only a small proportion of sales, and this seems to be
in keeping with TLCs marketing and product development work (so presumably
in keeping with their own market research).
So I'm enthralled. Where does this idea come from?
Oh, and if you think for one minute I'm going to give up my ship hulls,
forget it ;-)
Richard
Still baldly going...
Check out Port Block at http://www.hinet.net.au/~guinan/
Stephen Altbacker
#2150 $73.00 546 pcs. (A really nice set)
#4556 $46.00 233 pcs. (Juniorized)
Even if you purchased two of the #4556's you would still not have anything
close to the #2150. It is far superior as to both the complexity and the
aesthetics of the finished model.
Judge for yourself, check these out in PAUSE/LUGNET.
-Stephen
da_mi...@my-deja.com wrote in message <84m1kv$ln7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
da_mi...@my-deja.com
seems to be. As I see it its not a bad thing, ship huls were good and
made for better looking boats. The Throwbots/Slizers are all speachelty
(SP) parts and thos are cool. and it seems there doing well. This point
was made already but if you think I'll give up my Throwbot army you
nust. The point is that the ship huls and throwbots would suck if not
for the new parts they poineard, but is a speachelty(SP) part is only
used for ont thing and in one theem then its no good, with ship hulls
being the exception(SP). No there was the Fliying time ship in the Time
crusers theem.
Martin & Jenny Leahy
>
> The term "Juniorization" was coined to refer to the simplistic construction
> and use of larger, single-use pieces (where many bricks were once used
> instead) in recent sets. The complexity of the sets were reduced, as was the
> difficulty level in building. This was done so that younger children could
> easily make the transistion from Duplo to the themes of System and even
> Technic (Throwbots, Cyberslam) at an earlier age. However, this development
> consumer group for the product based on sales.
>
> when referring to the new Town theme or " Town Jr.," which has since become
> City Center.
>
> Juniorization has mainly been prevalent in sets released since 1996,
> although the origins stretch back much earlier, especially in the late 80s
> and early 90s. Molded wall peices, usually with windows in them and printed
> bricks on the exteriors, have been around in Castle sets since the early
> 80s. The release of the molded hull sections for the floating Boats, and
> particularly for the Pirates line, introduced in 1989, foreshadow Juniorized
> sets now. In the past, hulls had been constructed entirely out of bricks,
> like in the USS Constellation set from the mid 70s. Also during this time is
> the introduction of the "big, ugly, rock piece" or "BURP," and the thin,
> raised baseplates with pits and ramps. The raised baseplates, in new molded
> forms, are still found in current releases, such as the Adventurers, Rock
> Raiders, and the 2000 Castle line.
>
> Jim
>
> <da_mi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:84m1kv$ln7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Yes, it's disgusting, Lego's marketing methods. Perhaps, if many, many
people call, write, e-mail, etc. TLG, telling them to cut out this
oversimplification **** [SUPPORT WITH INFORMATION RELATING TO THE FACT
THAT AFOLs ARE THE LARGEST CONSUMER GROUP], then maybe we'll get some
results. BTW, is that oversimplification **** the reasom why all the
good Space subthemes have been discontinued? In fact, I don't think
that TLG has spared so much as a single space subtheme. UFO was the
last official space subtheme, and Unitron was the last good one. TLG
has destroyed the whole thing, just to make way for these pieces of ****
that don't even deserve mention. Is juniorization responsible for TLG's
total degradation?
PCL
Matthew Verdier
>Yes, it's disgusting, Lego's marketing methods. Perhaps, if many, many
>people call, write, e-mail, etc. TLG, telling them to cut out this
>oversimplification **** [SUPPORT WITH INFORMATION RELATING TO THE FACT
>THAT AFOLs ARE THE LARGEST CONSUMER GROUP], then maybe we'll get some
>results. BTW, is that oversimplification **** the reasom why all the
>good Space subthemes have been discontinued? In fact, I don't think
[SNIP]
Ah, the much debated how big is the Adult Lego Market thread. The LUGNET
links page (currently maintained by Linc Smith, originally created by
Michael Dorneich which was the successor to David Karr's list years 5 or 6
years ago) shows less than 500 Lego related web pages. The LUGNET page is
the most complete list I am aware of currently. Let's assume it is 50%
complete so there are approximately 1000 AFOL websites worldwide. Then lets
make a guess that for every websavy AFOL, there are 4 non-websavy ones.
That means there are 5000 AFOLs world wide (numbers pulled out of my nether
regions, this is just for debates sake). Suppose the average AFOL spends a
grand a year on Lego. That is a whopping $5 million dollars a year in
revenue attributable to AFOLs. I'm not sure what the yearly Lego revenue
worldwide is but I think it is in the region of $5 billion. To be in that
ball park I have to be off on my guess by three orders of magnitude on the
number of AFOLs or their estimated budget.
Lego has expressed an interest in working with the AFOL community to better
fulfill our wants. If you communicate with the Lego Company, tell them what
you want, your demographic information, what you are willing to pay, and
what your own Lego budget is. That will go a lot farther than trying to
demand things in the name of the Adult Lego community.
Matthew Verdier
"You can't just say you're King because some watery tart threw a sword at
you"
Dennis 932 AD
Tom Stangl
> regions, this is just for debates sake). Suppose the average AFOL spends a
> grand a year on Lego. That is a whopping $5 million dollars a year in
> revenue attributable to AFOLs.
I doubt the average is as low as $1K (I know I do a good job of skewing that
avg, and my purchases are peanuts compared to others).
> I'm not sure what the yearly Lego revenue
> worldwide is but I think it is in the region of $5 billion. To be in that
> ball park I have to be off on my guess by three orders of magnitude on the
> number of AFOLs or their estimated budget.
You are probably off on both by quite a bit (though not orders of magnitude on
both). I believe Todd has 3000 people listed on the AucZILLA distribution
lists, and I'm sure that doesn't even begin to touch the # of people who could
be considered AFOLs.
--
| Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp
| Please do not associate my personal views with my employer
Matthew Verdier
>Matthew Verdier wrote:
>
>> regions, this is just for debates sake). Suppose the average AFOL spends
a
>> grand a year on Lego. That is a whopping $5 million dollars a year in
>> revenue attributable to AFOLs.
>
>I doubt the average is as low as $1K (I know I do a good job of skewing
that
>avg, and my purchases are peanuts compared to others).
>
>
>> I'm not sure what the yearly Lego revenue
>> worldwide is but I think it is in the region of $5 billion. To be in
that
>> ball park I have to be off on my guess by three orders of magnitude on
the
>> number of AFOLs or their estimated budget.
>
>You are probably off on both by quite a bit (though not orders of magnitude
on
>both). I believe Todd has 3000 people listed on the AucZILLA distribution
>lists, and I'm sure that doesn't even begin to touch the # of people who
could
>be considered AFOLs.
Ok, so say I'm off by a factor of 10 of the number of AFOLs or their
expenditures. That is still $10 million. It is a nice chunk of change,
hence Lego Direct opening a dialog with the AFOL community, but doesn't
really compare with the overall market that is primarily purchased for
children. Personally I don't think Lego would be considering the AFOL
community at all if it weren't for LUGNET concentrating the presence of the
AFOLs. For the first time, the Lego Company could do real market research
and have some true measure of the interest of the AFOL community.
I think this is just one more reason we need to thank Todd and Suzanne.
Jim Stroot
"Martin & Jenny Leahy" <le...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:38716A...@concentric.net...
> people call, write, e-mail, etc. TLG, telling them to cut out this
> oversimplification **** [SUPPORT WITH INFORMATION RELATING TO THE FACT
> THAT AFOLs ARE THE LARGEST CONSUMER GROUP], then maybe we'll get some
> results. BTW, is that oversimplification **** the reasom why all the
> good Space subthemes have been discontinued? In fact, I don't think
> last official space subtheme, and Unitron was the last good one. TLG
> has destroyed the whole thing, just to make way for these pieces of ****
> that don't even deserve mention. Is juniorization responsible for TLG's
> total degradation?
>
> PCL
The popular speculation is that the licensing agreement that TLG inked with
Lucasfilm allowing them to develop Star Wars sets also prevented TLG from
releasing any competing space theme. The Rock Raiders, however, seem to be
the closest thing to space sets now. But set numbers neither fall within
Space nor Town, and then there's the Rock Monster...
I read that in 1998(1) TLC posted a loss for the first time in the history
of the company. They also cut their work force in their European factory.
Whether this was due to lower sales of the inferior juniorized sets, a
worldwide recession (except in the US), signing costly licensing deals with
Disney and Lucasfilm, or perhaps the costly(2) development of the
Mindstorms/Robotics sets remains to be seen. It's a privately held company,
so this is just speculation.
The Mindstorms/Robotics kits and Star Wars sets have proved to be very
successful though. The successful Star Wars line is due in part to the Star
Wars trademark, but the sets IMO are fairly well constucted and complex
compared to the recent releases in other themes. Hopefully TLG makes the
distinction when attributing the success of the line to good old complexity
of construction rather than just to the Star Wars name.
Jim
(1) I think it was in 1998. The layoffs did make the news here, I remember
reading about them on CNN.com.
(2) I'm assuming Mindstorms was very costly to develop. MIT helped or at
least did most of the development work. If you're familiar with what
contract programmers make, it probably was very costly. That kind of talent
does not come cheap.
Thomas
How old does a person have to be, for you to considered them an AFOL?
Scott
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shuttle/3019/Lego.html
Hofstar wrote in message ...
>OK, for starters, I agree with you. The AFOLs are probably not a very big
>post in TLGs annual revenue, but I think you are grabbing the wrong end of
>the rope...
>
>Instead of calculating how much the AFOLs spend on LEGO, you should ask how
>much they are WILLING to pay if TLG made some more decent sets... On top of
>that, we all know that AFOLs are addicts, which mean that when people say
>they want to spend maybe 2000$ a year on LEGO, what happens then? They
spend
>4000$! When did you last stay within your budget when shopping for LEGO?
And
>thats even in the bad years? How often did you get home with 2 or 3 more
>sets than you actually planned on?
>
>The AFOLs are the ones with the largest "buying power"... We have the bucks
>and we want to spend them... I think that if TLG got away from this totally
>overdone juniorization, then the balance between AFOLs and KidsFOLs would
be
>maybe 40/60 %... And if your guess on 5 billion a year is correct, then the
>2 billion would be from the AFOLs... And I leave out the fact that the 5
>billion would be increased if the sets were better...
>
>There is not a company in the world, that doesnt want to increase their
>revenue, so why doesnt TLG listen more to the adult market? I think its
>because the AFOLs are a very little number of people compared to the total
>market... We are simply not visible enough. I dont know how to become more
>visible to TLG, because just contacting them is quite a task in itself. And
>to get to talk to someone other than customer service is a Mission
>Impossible... So I hope this LEGO Direct is a step in the right direction
>and not a hoax...
>
>And just on the side... I think that most of the AFOLs are too busy
>"creating" to have time to maintain a web site... My guess is that max 10%
>of the AFOLs have their own site...
>
>Regards,
>Hofstar
>
>
>Matthew Verdier skrev i meddelelsen ...
>>Martin & Jenny Leahy wrote in message <38716A...@concentric.net>...
>>
>>Ah, the much debated how big is the Adult Lego Market thread. The LUGNET
>>links page (currently maintained by Linc Smith, originally created by
>>Michael Dorneich which was the successor to David Karr's list years 5 or 6
>>years ago) shows less than 500 Lego related web pages. The LUGNET page is
>>the most complete list I am aware of currently. Let's assume it is 50%
>>complete so there are approximately 1000 AFOL websites worldwide. Then
>lets
>>make a guess that for every websavy AFOL, there are 4 non-websavy ones.
>>That means there are 5000 AFOLs world wide (numbers pulled out of my
nether
>>regions, this is just for debates sake). Suppose the average AFOL spends
a
>>grand a year on Lego. That is a whopping $5 million dollars a year in
>>revenue attributable to AFOLs. I'm not sure what the yearly Lego revenue
>>worldwide is but I think it is in the region of $5 billion. To be in that
>>ball park I have to be off on my guess by three orders of magnitude on the
>>number of AFOLs or their estimated budget.
>>
>>Lego has expressed an interest in working with the AFOL community to
better
>>fulfill our wants. If you communicate with the Lego Company, tell them
>what
>>you want, your demographic information, what you are willing to pay, and
>>what your own Lego budget is. That will go a lot farther than trying to
>>demand things in the name of the Adult Lego community.
>>
