Mercruiser carb or EFI ?
Eddy Celis
Is EFI worth the extra $1500 if you do not need the extra
15 orso hp ?
The dealer I spoke with opted more for the carb engine
because, he says, this version would be more reliable and
cheaper in maintenance.
Any help would be appreciated.
Eddy.
Barefootr
Is EFI worth the extra $1500 if you do not need the extra
15 orso hp ?>>>
Some of the dealers I know also promote the carb'd engines, I feel mainly
since they are lower initial cost. This theory fares well when comparing
two identical 265 hp engines, one with TBI, and one with a carb.
I used to say that since I know how to run a carb'd engine, either hot or
cold, I'd stick with the carb. Less money, same power. But, the last
engine I had was a 265 TBI (Throttle-body), and now I'll never go back to
anything less, with Port Fuel Injection even being better. Why? Well,
plain and simple, *anyone* can run it. If you have a friend, spouse or
other that has learned how to drive for you, but is not quite as
experienced as you, the EFI has definate advantages.
*Turnkey starting, hot, cold, lukewarm, chilled, or on ice. ;)
*Runs at idle, in gear or in neutral, again, hot or cold.
*Doesn't stall as you are doing that low-speed dock manuver.
*Doesn't have any hesitations when the throttle is applied.
*It won't be long before very few Tourney boats still have carb'd engines.
My opinions!
Bare. :)
*********************************************************
Upper Valley Watersports - Malibu Boats Promo Rep
Lebanon, New Hampshire 603-448-6633
HO/Hyperlite * O'Brien * Straightline * Masterline * Eagle
*********************************************************
Bill Walker
(Barefootr) wrote:
[...]
> the EFI has definate advantages.
>
> *Turnkey starting, hot, cold, lukewarm, chilled, or on ice. ;)
I'll give you this one. My carbureted engine (Mercruiser Magnum
Tournament Ski) sometimes takes a little bit of cranking and throttle
"messing" when it's cold.
> *Runs at idle, in gear or in neutral, again, hot or cold.
So does my carbureted engine.
> *Doesn't stall as you are doing that low-speed dock manuver.
Neither does my carbureted engine.
> *Doesn't have any hesitations when the throttle is applied.
Neither does my carbureted engine.
> *It won't be long before very few Tourney boats still have carb'd engines.
True, but it'll be at least partially because EFI will be needed to meet
emissions regulations which will be imposed, and because the automotive
companies who make the engines on which the marine inboards are based
aren't building carburetors any more.
EFI is great, but it's expensive, and not yet proven in marine use (see
vapor lock problems reported here). And carburetors aren't really that
bad. Now, you might ask, "What do you know, Bill? Your boat only has 170
hours on it", but I didn't have any of the above problems in my
26-year-old stern drive, either.
----------
Bill Walker - WWa...@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA
"First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
Barefootr
emissions regulations which will be imposed, and because the automotive
companies who make the engines on which the marine inboards are based
aren't building carburetors any more.>>>
Another good point!
<<<EFI is great, but it's expensive, and not yet proven in marine use (see
vapor lock problems reported here).>>>
If you keep a boat 26 years, my bet is that another $1500 for EFI is but
pennies on that payment term, or even less with up front cash. In terms of
not yet being proven...true, it has only been a few years now, but I don't
know of any vapor lock problems that have not been resolved., nor have I
heard of any other problems that were significant to change the
purchaser's decision.
Heck, carb's still go out the door on alot of boats, and run fine. It is
just that I happen to prefer the EFI route.
Bare. :)
Bill Walker
(Barefootr) wrote:
[...]
[Bill Walker wrote:]
> <<<EFI is great, but it's expensive, and not yet proven in marine use (see
> vapor lock problems reported here).>>>
>
> If you keep a boat 26 years, my bet is that another $1500 for EFI is but
> pennies on that payment term, or even less with up front cash. In terms of
> not yet being proven...true, it has only been a few years now, but I don't
> know of any vapor lock problems that have not been resolved., nor have I
> heard of any other problems that were significant to change the
> purchaser's decision.
[...]
Sure, the mfrs. have been quick to resolve the vapor lock problems on the
MasterCrafts, but did that keep the problems from ruining somebody's ski
day? Probably not. And they probably had to blow all or part of another
day to take the boat into the dealer to have the problem dealt with.
I'd say marine EFI isn't quite out of the teething stage yet. I'd give it
a few more years before I bought it. As it becomes more widespread, the
price will go down and the reliability will go up. Just my opinion, of
course. If easy cold starts, etc., are worth the money and the risk of
failure to you, then that's your choice.
Bill Walker
<john.c...@mail.mei.com> wrote:
> Our son had the bad luck of having a friends carb boat stutter during a
> slalom start. He was starting with single boot ski. The result was a
> dislocated hip.
>
> Yes I know it wasn't caused 100% by the carb engine! But it never
> would have happened with EFI!
My sympathies to your son, but this sounds like a very "freak" sort of
accident to me. I can't even imagine how a "stutter" could result in the
skier dislocating his hip. Seems to me in that situation, either you'd
sink back down enough that you'd know you weren't getting up, so you'd
drop the handle, or else the handle would be jerked out of your hands (at
least, that's the way it's worked for me when I've experienced hesitation
or stutter).
Hmm, I suppose a sudden jerk on the line could cause you to go out the
front, but it'd have to happen after you were pretty much up.
How did this happen, anyway?
John Conners
slalom start. He was starting with single boot ski. The result was a
dislocated hip.
Yes I know it wasn't caused 100% by the carb engine! But it never
would have happened with EFI!
A hip dislocation is now a lifelong concern, with possible arthritus
and hip replacement down the road.
John
Barefootr
> would have happened with EFI!
<<<I can't even imagine how a "stutter" could result in the
skier dislocating his hip.>>>
I have to agree whole-heartedly with Bill's reply to this tangent. It must
have been a very weird freaky accident for someone's hip to be dislocated
due to a boat engine "stutter". I was not there, so no, I do not know the
cause, but a low-time skier/driver combination could provide results of
this sort.
No offense intended, and best of luck getting back into skiing shape!
acss...@acs.eku.edu
>> Yes I know it wasn't caused 100% by the carb engine! But it never
>> would have happened with EFI!
>
> <<<I can't even imagine how a "stutter" could result in the
> skier dislocating his hip.>>>
>
> I have to agree whole-heartedly with Bill's reply to this tangent. It must
> have been a very weird freaky accident for someone's hip to be dislocated
> due to a boat engine "stutter". I was not there, so no, I do not know the
> cause, but a low-time skier/driver combination could provide results of
> this sort.
>
> No offense intended, and best of luck getting back into skiing shape!
I'm a left right foot forward skier. I had had my left hip pop 2
different times starting on a slalom. It didn't hurt and as far as I
know there are no long term injuries. It seems to happen when get pulled
a bit out of position (out the front), but not so far that it can't be
recovered. I would assume that a studder, then sudden lunge of power,
might cause something like this to happen. But, not enough details to
really say for sure. Lately, I have been having a terrible time geting
up... time to loose some of this weight.
dsc
Dudley Cornman
Systems Programmer
Academic Computing Services - EKU
ACSS...@ACS.EKU.EDU
Terry Jones
>Our son had the bad luck of having a friends carb boat stutter during a
>slalom start. He was starting with single boot ski. The result was a
>dislocated hip.
>
>would have happened with EFI!
I'm sorry, but ANY boat can stutter at any time. Carb or EFI, Points or
electronic ignition, etc etc.
Water in the fuel, bad fuel injectors, bad connections on the ignition
computer, etc etc. Neither engine is immune to stutters or stalls.
No engine CAN be immune.
Injury in sport is always a sad thing, especially one that will
be with you a long time. But I hardley believe you can blame this
on a "carb" boat.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of EFI, and frankly think they are
easier to work on, use less fuel, polute less and I feel require
less maintenance than carburated engines.
tj
John
wrote:
<snip>
>True, but it'll be at least partially because EFI will be needed to meet
>emissions regulations which will be imposed, and because the automotive
>companies who make the engines on which the marine inboards are based
>aren't building carburetors any more.
Bill, the 351 has not been an automotive engine for years for exactly
what you stated, they could not meet emissions.
Also thought one of the marine engine manufactures bought some of the
tooling for the 351 from Ford, but I may be wrong on that. Any one
know?
>EFI is great, but it's expensive, and not yet proven in marine use (see
>vapor lock problems reported here). And carburetors aren't really that
>bad. Now, you might ask, "What do you know, Bill? Your boat only has 170
>hours on it", but I didn't have any of the above problems in my
>26-year-old stern drive, either.
Expensive is the key they need to lower the cost of EFI. They are
great but not worth the high cost now being charged.
Only thing I hate about carbs are the Holleys seem to wear the
throttle body shafts some where between 800-1000hrs. and then you
might as well throw them away because you can buy replacement throttle
bodies for any of the marine carbs I've played with.
John
John
<snip>
>If you keep a boat 26 years, my bet is that another $1500 for EFI is but
>pennies on that payment term, or even less with up front cash. In terms of
>not yet being proven...true, it has only been a few years now, but I don't
>know of any vapor lock problems that have not been resolved., nor have I
>heard of any other problems that were significant to change the
>purchaser's decision.
Come on Bare.. some of these companies won't be around in 26 years ;-)
I believe you will still see changes in the EFI fuel systems in 1996.
They still have some problems they have been trying to fix during 1995
but some of them where stop-gap fixed and the production fixes will
most likely be different. It's not like a car EFI with the fuel pump
in the tank. Some of the tank designs have been less than adequate and
some of the fixes have been cheap (read - don't want to put too much
into warranty fixes). So I agree with Bill on this one they still need
some refinement.
>Heck, carb's still go out the door on alot of boats, and run fine. It is
>just that I happen to prefer the EFI route.
>Bare. :)
John
Terry Jones
Yes, and you will also see changes in carb systems. Your point?
>They still have some problems they have been trying to fix during 1995
>but some of them where stop-gap fixed and the production fixes will
>most likely be different.
Its not like some of the fixes to carbs weren't stop gap fixes. Even in
recent years there have been fixes to carbs to prevent surging.
I fail to see how a "firmware update" for an engine control
computer to fix a problem is a stop-gap measure and removing or changing
springs on a carb is not?
Frankly I think that an EFI systems is a lot easier to maintain AND repair.
They really are not complex. ANybody that trys to tell me that a carb
is less complex is also not likely to be able to explain what half the
orifices, levers, hollows, valves and gaskets in the carb even do.
Lets look at the basic principals of EFI.
Start with throttle body injection. The throttle body regulates the
airflow into the engine and an injector is opened by an engine computer
to allow the correct amount of fuel to enter.
Multiport is simply an extension of that. Throttle body still meters
the air, and instead of one injector, there are individual injectors
near each cylinder.
The amount of fuel delivered is controlled by how long the injector
is open and how much pressure is in the fuel line. The time is controlled
by the engine control computer (electronic control module, or whatever term
you want to attach to it). The pressure is controlled by a pressure regulator.
Injectors are pretty simple puppies. Not hard to replace. Nothing real
complex at all. Simple open/close type valve, two wires.
Compare that to a carb.
The physice involved in metering fuel in a carburator system
are not as easily understood. Hell, most people have trouble
understanding how the venturi principal draws fuel into
the airflow. It isn't pushed in there kids! But the complex interactions
at the various operating speeds, with low, intermediate and high speed
jets, adjustments for elevation, adjustments for idle. Accelerator pumps
to counter the fact that there is lag between when you hit it and when a
venturi system is capable of delivering the required fuel
(ie after airflow has come up to speed) There is suually a
complex automatic choke assembly.
There is a lot going on in a carb. I think the problem is that carbs have
been around a long time and people are just used to the types of problems
they have seen with carbs. Its not that there are fewer probelms.
Its just that because they have been around for so many decades that
people are just more familiar with them.
Don't get me wrong, carbs do work well. But they took decades to
get to the performance and reliability levels that EFI systems been
able to attain in only a few years.
tj
Gregg Robinson
>
>I believe you will still see changes in the EFI fuel systems in 1996.
>but some of them where stop-gap fixed and the production fixes will
>in the tank. Some of the tank designs have been less than adequate and
>some of the fixes have been cheap (read - don't want to put too much
>into warranty fixes). So I agree with Bill on this one they still need
>some refinement.
>
will become the 350 Magnum EFI Gen+ (290 hp prop shaft). It will still have TBI FI but will have the
same heads as the new Black Scorpion engine. The only multi port 350 will be the Black Scorpion at
315 hp at the prop. The Carb 350 Magnum will still be available at 265 hp. The 5.7 Competition Ski
(350 CU IN also) drops to 215 HP from 250 with a 2 barrel carb.
I have never seen any vapor lock problems with the 350 Merc fuel injected engines. I have seen
problems with the 454 Multi Port (395 hp). The new Black Scorpion Engine does have a water cooled
fuel system, and I believe the water cooling will be on the TBI engine when it becomes availale in Jan.
My preference? Fuel injection hands down, no question at all. I have spend many hours with both
the Magnum carb. and the Magnum EFI. On paper there is no advantage as they both have the same
HP. But in starting, throttle response, easy of maintaining speed in the course, there is no comparison.
The TBI adjusts for altitude if going to high lakes. It runs crisper when cold, and in cold water.
Will it pay for it's self in fuel savings? No. Will you get it back when you sell it? I just did on my '94.
Will you get a LOT more enjoyment while you have it? You bet.
Gregg
Carver
I've driven many carbuereted boats and EFI boats. Performance wise,
there is absolutely no comparison, an EFI boat is far superior. And as
for reliability, I have a TBI system (arguably the cheapest, lowest
tech of the EFI's) and it runs flawlessly, and has for almost 200
hours. I have yet to hear from others who have had any major problems
either.
Buy EFI. Or wish you had when you can't give it away five years from
now when everything is EFI.
pete
acss...@acs.eku.edu
> Will it pay for it's self in fuel savings? No.
> Will you get it back when you sell it? I just did on my '94.
From what I have seen for sterndrives, you might get it back in fuel
savings over a longer period of time. But not just 2 years unless you
use it much more than the average boater. I'v seen some figures that show
alomost a 2:1 improvement. Don't know about direct drives though....
John
wrote:
>Our son had the bad luck of having a friends carb boat stutter during a
>slalom start. He was starting with single boot ski. The result was a
>dislocated hip.
Sorry to hear that. Injuries sure seem to be up this year, must be the
weather.
>Yes I know it wasn't caused 100% by the carb engine! But it never
>would have happened with EFI!
Oh yes it will.. that's exactly why Inmar has been sending dealers new
computer chips, trying to get ride of a hesitation problem.
John
Bill Walker
[...]
> I have never seen any vapor lock problems with the 350 Merc fuel injected
> engines. I have seen problems with the 454 Multi Port (395 hp). The new
> Black Scorpion Engine does have a water cooled fuel system, and I believe
> the water cooling will be on the TBI engine when it becomes availale in
> Jan.
Yikes! Does it come standard with a closed cooling system, or will salt
water skiers be cooling their EFI systems with salt water? That idea
scares the hell out of me.
Bob Scibienski
>
Lately, I have been having a terrible time geting
>up... time to loose some of this weight.
>
> Dudley, I almost hate to say this for fear of inciting a whole new thread, but in my
opinion all of the new boats with high output engines are overpowered, injected of not. Perhaps
your driver is giving you too much power. I know that a quick, hard pull makes it more work for
me to get up!
Just a thought.
--
Bob S. :=)
Carver
>
>Nah, there's even people today that won't have an EFI car of truck.
The
>market for carbed boats will hold for a considerable time to come.
>I would have liked to have had EFI on our '93 Baja, but for the
>difference I probably could have had a big block instead and that
would
>have been preferable to me. For the price of adding EFI now, I could
>have a Paxton, or a Stern Jack (with cash left over), either of which
>would make me go faster, not just smoother. But this is a stern drive
>perspective...
>
>dsc
>
Exactly, and there are few stern drive "ski" boats. Five years from
now, you will have trouble giving away a tournament ski boat without
EFI. The lack of EFI will be a big drawback in the marketplace. One
big reason for this will be the fact that five years from now a lot
more people will have driven EFI ski boats and realize what an
incredible difference it is.
To me, EFI on a stern drive is almost a non-issue. You have so much
less feel for the water than in a ski boat and less need for precise
throttle response that I could see a stern drive owner opting to spend
money elsewhere.
pete
acss...@acs.eku.edu
> now, you will have trouble giving away a tournament ski boat without
> EFI. The lack of EFI will be a big drawback in the marketplace. One
Call me, I just might be interested.
> big reason for this will be the fact that five years from now a lot
> more people will have driven EFI ski boats and realize what an
> incredible difference it is.
>
> To me, EFI on a stern drive is almost a non-issue. You have so much
> less feel for the water than in a ski boat and less need for precise
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not sure what hat means? Please explain.
> throttle response that I could see a stern drive owner opting to spend
> money elsewhere.
Well, I bought all the boat I thought I could afford. If money were no
object, I'd have a big block, EFI, a Paxton, and a Stern Jack, and, and,
and... But for now, it's nice to not be forced into it.
We ordered our boat in the fall of '92 and EFI was really just starting
to become available (small blocks). The dealer never mentioned EFI. I
didn't think of it either until it was too late or I might have
considered it. If/when my carb dies, I hope the efi systems are dirt
cheap.
Carver
>
>> To me, EFI on a stern drive is almost a non-issue. You have so much
>> less feel for the water than in a ski boat and less need for precise
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Not sure what hat means? Please explain.
>
It means that at speed a good ski boat feels like its on rails. And it
will turn on a dime without missing a beat. Most I/O's turn
like...well, I/O's. It's like comparing the handling of a 911 to a
Z28.
pete
Jody Seal
John
wrote:
>In article <45i0d7$e...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, c...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 1995 14:05:26 -0800, wwa...@qualcomm.com (Bill Walker)
>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> >True, but it'll be at least partially because EFI will be needed to meet
>> >emissions regulations which will be imposed, and because the automotive
>> >companies who make the engines on which the marine inboards are based
>> >aren't building carburetors any more.
>>
>> Bill, the 351 has not been an automotive engine for years for exactly
>> what you stated, they could not meet emissions.
>[...]
>I thought Ford was still using it in trucks, though (and with EFI). Am I wrong?
Well I'm sure the 351 V8 block is not in any Ford product in CA.
>Certainly GM is still using the 350 (aka 5.7) in both cars and trucks, with EFI.
True...
>----------
>Bill Walker - WWa...@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA
>"First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
John
John
>Aside from all that, you said that the 351 isn't being used in automotive
>engines anymore? It was my understanding that I could still buy a 351 in
>any full-size ford truck, and I had one in my '88. Is there a difference
>between truck & car emission standards?
There is in CA, some of it has changed and I haven't stayed current.
But it use to be if you had at least a 3/4 Ton truck it didn't have to
meet the same requirements as the autos. Not sure but I beleive they
have force most of the requirement on the trucks now.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 351 Ford V8 is
available in a Ford product in CA.
acss...@acs.eku.edu
>
> Well I'm sure the 351 V8 block is not in any Ford product in CA.
Rather limited perspective...
I'm about positive you can still get 351's in Ky. I'd be suprised if you
can't get a 351 in a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup in CA. as well. I don't see how
some occupations could live with out 351's and 460's.
acss...@acs.eku.edu
I agree to much power is as bad or worse than not enough power for me.
But I had my driver back off to a level that was not that overpowering.
But my weight is up and my strength is down. That's an aggrevating
combination. I do hope to be ready for next year though. I just gotta cut
out the beef, hit the pool, roller blades and bicycle. I lost about 16
pounds last winter, I should be able to do it again.
BRIAN LOWE
cold starts. But, I do not think that it will keep my from selling my
boat in five years, because there is always someone without the money for
a new boat (or a used one with EFI for that matter) that would rather have
a real ski boat than an I/O, or whatever that could care less about EFI
when its the difference between boat or no boat.
Brian Lowe
bria...@aol.com