Extended Pylon Stress Issues
Mark Beggs
MESSAGE POSTED IN REC.SPORT.WATERSKI
Not having a pylon, and considering one has brought this topic to the top of my very crowded brain as well. Here's what my service manager (Harrison's in Oakland CA) said about Malibu and this topic; He has seen one loose pylon so far due to a extended pylon. He feels that most Malibu's will loosen somewhat over time with the taller pole. Malibu has told him that they will not warranty this problem, although strangely enough the new wavesetter has a pole as an option. The problem lies in the mount arrangement to the hull. The bottom of the pylon is tapered and fits very tightly into a glass cup on the bottom. It is through bolted to the mount. Over time, the extra movement from the additional leverage enlarges the size of the opening in the cup and the pylon moves a little. The solution was to sleeve the bottom of the pylon with something and add another bolt through the mount.
MALIBU'S RESPONSE
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you with a response to your question. I was out of the office on Thursday when your message came in and was extremely busy on Friday as well. I also wanted to be sure to check with out warranty department about all of this before venturing a response that could cause further misunderstandings. I spoke with Bryan Munday about this issue late Friday afternoon and he has apparently been in contact with someone else who read the postings to the newsgroup in regards to the use of extended pylons with a Malibu. The following is the response that Bryan sent to the person in regards to his question which was very similar to your own.... "Any way, as for the extended pylon, we have not had any problems so far as a result of using an extended pylon. As for some pylons loosening up, it can happen even with out using an extended pylon. The pylon is tapered at the bottom and can sometimes loosen at the bottom of the taper. If it ever happens the easiest fix, is to wrap the bottom of the pylon with black tape to make it fit tight again. The fiberglass bracket will not crack or break do to normal use of an extended pylon..." Now, in regards to your question about whether Malibu stands behind their warranty, the answer is yes, we do. As Bryan stated, we have seen the pylon loosen at times with or without the use of an extended pylon and to his knowledge, in all such cases, we have honored the warranty and paid for the repair. We do, however, reserve the right to refuse such repairs caused by the use of extended pylons, booms, or any other accessories that may be added to the boat at some future date and not with the approval of Malibu Boats. I'm sure I could list a number of examples of things that people could add or do to their boat that could cause possible damage and void the warranty and I'm also sure that no matter how creative I could get with this list, it wouldn't include half of the things that could actually be done. I'm sure you can understand that we have to allow for these possible scenarios. As I stated in my first letter, to our knowledge, we have never had a failure of our pylon or the mounting system and although we have had some loosening occur, my understanding is that we have honored the warranty and paid for the repairs regardless of whether a boom, extended pylon, or anything else was used on the boat. I hope this answers your questions but if not, please feel free to let me know. I'd be happy to help answer any questions you may have. Sincerely, Rick Rank Malibu Boats
Hope this was of interest to the group.
...Mark Beggs
ray_pulley
>
>
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That person was me (Ray), and FYI Bryan asked me not to post his reply to
r.s.w., which I honored. Also, please note that there was a little more to the
response (something like go ahead and have fun with your boat and do not worry
about it, it'll be ok) that, given my experience with Bryan, and Malibu in
general for that matter, certainly allayed any worries that I might have had.
They have been 110% behind the product and straight up with me at all times on
any issues I have had with my boat. I can also attest to the skill of the people
in the service department. I was truly amazed at some gel work they did in a
couple of tough areas (5 color stripes on deck, main color "show everything"
dark green on deck and side). Flawless.
>>
>> "Any way, as for the extended pylon, we have not had any problems so far
>> as a result of using an extended pylon. As for some pylons loosening up,
>> it can happen even with out using an extended pylon. The pylon is
>> tapered at the bottom and can sometimes loosen at the bottom of the
>> taper. If it ever happens the easiest fix, is to wrap the bottom of the
>> pylon with black tape to make it fit tight again. The fiberglass bracket
>> will not crack or break do to normal use of an extended pylon..."
I have recently seen a Response (not sure of the year) without an extended pylon
that was loose. Do not know if it ever had one in the past.
>>
>> Now, in regards to your question about whether Malibu stands behind their
>> warranty, the answer is yes, we do. As Bryan stated, we have seen the
>> pylon loosen at times with or without the use of an extended pylon and to
>> his knowledge, in all such cases, we have honored the warranty and paid
>> for the repair. We do, however, reserve the right to refuse such repairs
>> caused by the use of extended pylons, booms, or any other accessories
>> that may be added to the boat at some future date and not with the
>> approval of Malibu Boats. I'm sure I could list a number of examples of
>> things that people could add or do to their boat that could cause
>> possible damage and void the warranty and I'm also sure that no matter
>> how creative I could get with this list, it wouldn't include half of the
>> things that could actually be done. I'm sure you can understand that we
>> have to allow for these possible scenarios.
>>
>> As I stated in my first letter, to our knowledge, we have never had a
>> failure of our pylon or the mounting system and although we have had some
>> loosening occur, my understanding is that we have honored the warranty
>> and paid for the repairs regardless of whether a boom, extended pylon, or
>> anything else was used on the boat.
Sorry if I was unclear in my original post. The above statement is accurate as
far as I know it. The repair mentioned was repaired under warranty as it was
described to me. The statement about extended pylons and non-warranty was made
with regards to future problems, and of course, no one is going to warranty
something they feel was abused or used beyond the original intent.
Given the huge growth in the wakeboard arena, maybe the mount could use a second
look by the R&D guys.
>>
>> I hope this answers your questions but if not, please feel free to let me
>> know. I'd be happy to help answer any questions you may have.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Rick Rank
>> Malibu Boats
>>
>Hope this was of interest to the group.
>
>...Mark Beggs
>
They are paying attention out there! Good to hear.
Ray
Mark Kovalcson
MC's with two U bolts holding the pylon?
Supras with the pylon fitting in a pipe that is screwed into the
stringers? Are screws tearing out?
CC's and American Skiers with the aluminum frame ?
Older boats like mine. I actually saw an extended pylon on an old
Supreme the other day. I know the pylon wasn't designed for that in my
boat. I've had the bottom pylon mount reglassed to the floor once
already with only slalom use.
Tom Ruta
...
>>> As I stated in my first letter, to our knowledge, we have never had a
>>> failure of our pylon or the mounting system and although we have had some
>>> loosening occur, my understanding is that we have honored the warranty
>>> and paid for the repairs regardless of whether a boom, extended pylon, or
>>> anything else was used on the boat.
>
>Sorry if I was unclear in my original post. The above statement is accurate as
>far as I know it. The repair mentioned was repaired under warranty as it was
>described to me. The statement about extended pylons and non-warranty was made
>with regards to future problems, and of course, no one is going to warranty
>something they feel was abused or used beyond the original intent.
FWIW, there's a nice bright sticker on the new MCs that clearly
states the warranty is invalid if you use a boom or pylon. (On a 98
Prostar )
Tom
John Anderson
>
>FWIW, there's a nice bright sticker on the new MCs that clearly
>states the warranty is invalid if you use a boom or pylon. (On a 98
>Prostar )
>
i.e. Don't buy a 98 Prostar if you want to wakeboard.
John Anderson
www.magicnet.net/~johna
Alan Neeper
would not be a problem .FWIW.
KENGIBBONS
>FWIW, there's a nice bright sticker on the new MCs that clearly
>states the warranty is invalid if you use a boom or pylon. (On a 98
>Prostar )
I am sure they know that no one will heed it anyway, and that way they are
clear of any potential problems.
As for MCs holding up, here is my experience with a Ten Foot Pole in my MC 205.
My U-bolts have never loosened. However, there is a lateral bracket that
spans the bilge. It is held in place by 4 stainless bolts that screw through
a side plate into tapped holes in a plate integrated into the structure.
Every couple of months, I put a ratchet on them and can crank them a quarter
turn or so until they are really tight again. They do loosen up a bit. Now,
I'm not sure what would happen if I let them go for a year. Maybe their happy
equilibrium is the quarter loose. In any case, if they were finger loose, the
bracket fits such that it wouldn't yank out anyway. The pylon would just
jiggle.
Mark Kovalcson
John Anderson wrote:
>
> In article <35f8a3f...@news.supernews.com>, ru...@cadvision.com (Tom Ruta) says:
> >
> >FWIW, there's a nice bright sticker on the new MCs that clearly
> >states the warranty is invalid if you use a boom or pylon. (On a 98
> >Prostar )
> >
>
Kevin R Baugh
sticker?? I don't understand how this can be true. After all MasterCraft
sells the Xstar with a flyhigh. They also sell a flyhigh for the Maristar.
Kevin R Baugh
krb...@ezl.com
http://www.ezl.com/~krbaugh
http://www.ezl.com/~krbaugh/carla
Tom Ruta
<krb...@spamezl.com> wrote:
>I own a 98 MasterCraft PowerStar it has no such sticker?? Just where is this
>sticker??
It was right on the pylon. On a ProStar 190.
>I don't understand how this can be true. After all MasterCraft
>sells the Xstar with a flyhigh. They also sell a flyhigh for the Maristar.
Well, maybe they have changed the mounting for those? Or it was a
leftover for the legal beagles. Probably wopuldn't hold up in a court
of law (implied merchantability or some such thing).
Tom
Lee Boy
factory pylon (other than the second hand report on the Malibu that got the
thread going) or is this still all theoretical at this point?
Tom Ruta wrote in message <35fd203...@news.supernews.com>...
ray_pulley
>
>Has anyone actually had a problem with an aftermarket extended pylon on a
>factory pylon (other than the second hand report on the Malibu that got the
>thread going) or is this still all theoretical at this point?
>
Uh, reread please. My son skied behind a Response (at a Malibu Reunion deal, no
less) with a loose pylon.
Also, note the statements by the FACTORY in a direct post here.
Hardly second hand.
Also note the MC owner tightening bolts regularly. It would be silly to think
that extending the pylon four or five times it's normal length would have no
effect on the pylon or mounting over time. It is known as leverage (time for you
engineer types to chime in and tell us about the additional stresses on the
pylon, I think).
Ray
Ray
Lee Boy
problem, I said it wrong. Sounds like a real problem on that particular boat
to me.I also did not catch in the post that your son had skied behind a
Malibu with a loose post, so now I understand it's not second hand, as well.
Back to the original question-any other examples on other boats?
BTW, the mount in my Supra is designed to flex slightly under forces either
straight back or straight forward so that the ring in the floor gets the
force instead of the bolts. There is not much motion that you would feel or
see. Hard to describe, but the result is that the bolts see mainly a shear
force (and bolts are pretty strong under shear), instead of a torsional
force on the bracket trying to pull out the bolts.
I've not looked at the other designs carefully, but some designs would be
better than others. The extra load from an extended pole would seperate the
good designs from the bad, surely.
Ray Pulley wrote in message <6tjjto$4...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
ray_pulley
>
>Hey, if my tone sounded like I didn't understand the original Malibu
>problem, I said it wrong. Sounds like a real problem on that particular boat
>to me.I also did not catch in the post that your son had skied behind a
>Malibu with a loose post, so now I understand it's not second hand, as well.
>
No problem, caught me before my morning tea, I guess!
This is a good topic well worth further discussion, IMHO. The tall pylons are
reasonably new to the scene and only time will tell what is going to happen.
Ray
Duff Delwiche
believe that any stress or spider cracks caused by the "tower" would not be
covered by CC. He also said that according to CC, the tower is not covered
under any type of warranty.
Is this true?
Anyone have any issues??
KENGIBBONS
>Also note the MC owner tightening bolts regularly. It would be silly to think
>that extending the pylon four or five times it's normal length would have no
>effect on the pylon or mounting over time. It is known as leverage (time for
>you
>engineer types to chime in and tell us about the additional stresses on the
>pylon, I think).
Yup, it's that leverage that concerns me, too. A pylon is basically a
cantilevered beam, and lengthening the effective distance of load application
(extended pylon) increases stresses linearly. Some side effects increase by
the cube of the distance. What does it all mean? That extended pylons do put
lots more stress on the boat.
I am the MC owner who regularly checks bolt tightness where the pylon bracket
connects to the bilge. I do it just for peace of mind, I am glad there is
something I can do to as maintenanence, if it is really needed at all. I have
heard of the Malibu cup wallowing out, adding tape to the bottom of the pylon
to take up the clearance just doesn't "feel right", even though it probably
does the job.
ray_pulley
says...
I was amazed myself that the service manager would allow that fix to be posted
by someone else at Malibu. Even if effective it gives the impression of being a
little shade treeish.
Ray
Kevin R Baugh
I did some checking your statement is wrong and misleading. I do not have a
sticker in my PowerStar why I have no idea but the sticker on the other
boats reads.
Warning
this tow bar is not designed for vertical extensions over 7 ft.
Any modifications to the tow bar or its mountings may result in damage to
the boat.
This is what is in the owners manual
THE USE OF A SKI PYLON EXTENSION OR EXTENSIONS IN EXCESS OF 7-FEET-VERTICAL
IS NOT Recommended by MasterCraft on our products. If you elect to use
merchandise such as these, be aware that they could create excessive stress
on your boat and subjectively cause damages not covered by the warranty.
MasterCraft offers a pylon extension that has been factory-tested and will
not damage your boat when used as directed. Use of any other pylon may void
your warranty.
Makes commons sense to me. as many wakeboarders in this news group have said
any extension over 7 ft is of no value. Wake board tournaments use the 7 ft
lenght
Tom Ruta
>Tom
>
>I did some checking your statement [warranty invalidation] is wrong and misleading...
<and then you go on to say...>
>
...
>This is what is in the owners manual
>
>THE USE OF A SKI PYLON EXTENSION OR EXTENSIONS IN EXCESS OF 7-FEET-VERTICAL
>IS NOT Recommended by MasterCraft on our products. If you elect to use
>merchandise such as these, be aware that they could create excessive stress
>on your boat and subjectively cause damages not covered by the warranty.
Er... without putting too fine a point on it... what exactly
does the section you quoted mean: "NOT COVERED BY WARRANTY"?
>MasterCraft offers a pylon extension that has been factory-tested and will
>not damage your boat when used as directed. Use of any other pylon may void
>your warranty.
>
So... let's see - buy Mastercrafts', that has been tested
and used "properly" (whatever that means) and you are
covered. Use or do anything else and you _may_ "NOT COVERED
BY WARRANTY". That sounds like it invalidates the warranty
in my books. I will grant you that I did not read the
owner's manual for the minutiae. That brightly coloured
sticker was enough for me to think that slapping on an
extended pylon on ANY boat without doing a lot of checking
is simply not a good idea.
Tom
Kevin R Baugh
Tom
We could argue about this forever, but your original statment was not true.
>>FWIW, there's a nice bright sticker on the new MCs that clearly
>>states the warranty is invalid if you use a boom or pylon. (On a
98Prostar >>)Tom
This part that you cut out of your response says nothing about invalidating
the warranty and is what is on the sticker that you are talking about.. It
says nothing about a boom.
Warning
this tow bar is not designed for vertical extensions over 7 ft.
Any modifications to the tow bar or its mountings may result in damage to
the boat.
>So... let's see - buy Mastercrafts', that has been tested
>and used "properly" (whatever that means)
I am sure that you know what that means if you do not keep the cables tight
on the extended pylon you could easily bend/break the pylon and mounting
system. So that would not be covered under the warranty just like letting
your engine run out of oil or never changing the oil.
>and you are
>covered. Use or do anything else and you _may_ "NOT COVERED
>BY WARRANTY". That sounds like it invalidates the warranty
>in my books. I will grant you that I did not read the
>owner's manual for the minutiae. That brightly colored
>sticker was enough for me to think that slapping on an
>extended pylon on ANY boat without doing a lot of checking
>is simply not a good idea.
True
>
>Tom
>
>
Tom Ruta
<krb...@spamezl.com> wrote:
>We could argue about this forever, but your original statment was not true.
>
Yeah, right. There really wasn't any sticker on the ProStar I saw.
And LHO acted alone.
...
>This part that you cut out of your response says nothing about invalidating
>the warranty and is what is on the sticker that you are talking about.. It
>says nothing about a boom.
>
Again, Ken I said I did not read the owners manual (saaayyy... you
wouldn't happen to own an MC would you??) I merely related what it
said on the sticker. I distinctly recall the word "boom" (not to be
confused with what happens if you ignore the sticker that says run the
blower before starting).
...
>>So... let's see - buy Mastercrafts', that has been tested
>>and used "properly" (whatever that means)
>
>I am sure that you know what that means if you do not keep the cables tight
>on the extended pylon you could easily bend/break the pylon and mounting
>system. So that would not be covered under the warranty just like letting
>your engine run out of oil or never changing the oil.
>
Ever file a warranty claim? I know that one day, for no reason, as an
example, the rear glass on my wife's Mazda imploded. She was accused
of all sorts of misbehaviours and in took a lot of brow beating of
Mazda to get it fixed at no charge.
If anyone uses an extended pylon (and possibly, but certainly to a
lesser extent a boom), and there are signs of their use and there's a
pylon failure, I could imagine _some_ dealers or mfgs. (not
necessarily the one we are speaking of here) to reject such pylon
claims due to (in their words) "improper use".
I sure as heck would not use any such beast unless I was absolutely
certain that the manufacturer couldn't find a way to avoid fixing a
clalim.
Tom
KENGIBBONS
ru...@cadvision.com (Tom Ruta) wrote:<BR>
>Again, Ken I said I did not read the owners manual (saaayyy... you<BR>
>wouldn't happen to own an MC would you??)
Tom, I think you are discussing this with Kevin, not "Ken". However, FWIW, I
am the MC owner concerned about using a Ten Foot Pole. Anyone with a
conventional pylon with an extension should give it some hard thought.
Tom Ruta
...
>Tom, I think you are discussing this with Kevin, not "Ken".
Opps! Sorry!
>However, FWIW, I
>am the MC owner concerned about using a Ten Foot Pole. Anyone with a
>conventional pylon with an extension should give it some hard thought.
Maybe it is just the fear of litigation that prompts the boat mfgs. to
add enough warnings to make the dash look like Times Square, but I
believe that there is the potential for an invalidated warranty claim
in boats NOT specifically designed for such attachments. That said, I
suspect a moderate extension, properly sized, attached and maintained
(ie. tight cables) would, IMHO, be unlikely to cause a problem for the
average person. I just don't want to be the one that finds out
contrary.
As an MC owner, did you notice that a lot of the 99s are going with a
rear brace attached to the rear lift rings rather than front guy
wires? Makes it look like a too large tripod. But I bet it is solid.
Tom
John Anderson
>
>Tom, I think you are discussing this with Kevin, not "Ken". However, FWIW, I
>am the MC owner concerned about using a Ten Foot Pole. Anyone with a
>conventional pylon with an extension should give it some hard thought.
If you're that worried about puting an extension on your pylon, then
don't. As a wakeboarder, I wouldn't give it a second thought.... If my
boat is so rickety that I can't put a pylon on it, then it's time for a
new boat. I've been putting a pylon on my 92' Nautique for the last
year and a half, and the pylon is as solid as a rock.
Maybe the trick is to buy a used boat. Then you don't have to worry
about the warranty issues.
John Anderson
www.magicnet.net/~johna
krb...@ezl.com
a MasterCraft and have said it many times before.
>
> Again, Ken I said I did not read the owners manual (saaayyy... you
> wouldn't happen to own an MC would you??) I merely related what it
> said on the sticker. I distinctly recall the word "boom" (not to be
> confused with what happens if you ignore the sticker that says run the
> blower before starting).
I am saying that you are wrong. That is not what it says on the sticker.
Once again the Sticker NOT the owners manual says.
Warning
this tow bar is not designed for vertical extensions over 7 ft.
Any modifications to the tow bar or its mountings may result in damage to
the boat.
krb...@ezl.com
Kevin Baugh
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Tom Ruta
>Hmm am I not being clear? First my name is Kevin not Ken.
Sorry about the name thing. I'll try really hard to get that part
straight in the future, but mistakes happen. You can call me "Tim" a
couple of times if it'll make you feel better.
>Second I said I own
>a MasterCraft and have said it many times before.
>
Satire is not your strong suit, I see.
...
>I am saying that you are wrong. That is not what it says on the sticker.
>Once again the Sticker NOT the owners manual says.
That is simply not what I remember reading on the sticker in the boat
I was in. Tell you what: rather that waste any more time on this I
promise that the next time I'm near a Mastercraft dealer I'll copy,
verbatim, the warnings off the pylon warning stickers on several of
the boats and post them.
Tom
Greenrider
>Maybe the trick is to buy a used boat. Then you don't have to worry
>about the warranty issues.
>
'89 MC - I have 2 seasons with the airboom, I have tightened the U bolts once
shortly after the extended pylon went on.
BTW the U bolts don't actually take the force from a rearward pull on the pylon
- they hold it on 2 brackets (1 in front, 1 in back) that take most of the
load.
Todd