Man-made ski lake
DCM98
ski lake? I know this is becoming more popular as the public lakes get more
traffic and we see more restrictions and regulations, etc. I live in Texas and
do not know of any companies around here that are in this business.
Thanks.
Big Dav160
three lakes and does consulting on that subject. I was considering that option
and he told me that 20 acres was needed for a good lake and with proper soil
condions that it cost about 40G to build the lake and fill it.
WillysGuy
They have a few lakes and some pictures. Try to email them. it only cost
$40,000 to build one??
Mark V. Beggs
DCM98 wrote:
I do.
I am Vice President of a large earthmoving construction company. We specialize in
the construction of water related projects (i.e. dams/lakes) throughout the central
part of the United States. We have built many dams in the Texas area. We've built
most of the lakes that Texas Utilites uses for power plant cooling and makeup
water. I would be more than happy to discuss any plans you have for building a ski
lake.
We may discuss this subject here if the rest of the group is interested in the ski
lake building process, otherwise contact me by private e-mail.
Mark Beggs, P.E.
mvb...@list-clark.com
Steve Murphy
learning more.
Mark V. Beggs wrote:
> I am Vice President of a large earthmoving construction company. We specialize in
> the construction of water related projects (i.e. dams/lakes) throughout the central
> part of the United States. We have built many dams in the Texas area. We've built
> most of the lakes that Texas Utilites uses for power plant cooling and makeup
> water. I would be more than happy to discuss any plans you have for building a ski
> lake.
>
> We may discuss this subject here if the rest of the group is interested in the ski
> lake building process, otherwise contact me by private e-mail.
>
> Mark Beggs, P.E.
> mvb...@list-clark.com
--
Steve
While you capitalists are purging my email and
spamming me,
don't forget to include these people:
Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com
Federal Trade Commission: U...@FTC.GOV
Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of
your own
medicine! admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost
$LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost $USER@$HOST
-h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
Chet Lenox
Mark V. Beggs wrote in message <35E3073F...@list-clark.com>...
>
>We may discuss this subject here if the rest of the group is interested in
the ski
>lake building process, otherwise contact me by private e-mail.
Personally, I think that a discussion of ski-lake construction would be on
topic, considering that there is probably a good number of competitive
skiers in this group. Of those, there are likely a good number that always
have in the back of their mind: "You know, what I'd really like to do is..."
So what do you think of Jay Bennett's reported estimate of $40k to dig a
competition site on 20 acres? I'm not a CivE, but I'm sure it has quite a
bit to do with where you want to do it. I'm also guessing that's
significantly low, although I'd love to be wrong. Referencing off Texas
(since that's where your company operates) as the build-location would be
fine with me.
Chet.
Michael Rothwell
dissagree, please include me on any Email correspondance.
Thanks.
Michael.
Mark V. Beggs wrote:
>
> DCM98 wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any information about companies that will dig an artificial
> > ski lake? I know this is becoming more popular as the public lakes get more
> > traffic and we see more restrictions and regulations, etc. I live in Texas and
> > do not know of any companies around here that are in this business.
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> >Does anyone have any information about companies that will dig an artificial
> >ski lake?
>
> I do.
>
> I am Vice President of a large earthmoving construction company. We specialize in
> the construction of water related projects (i.e. dams/lakes) throughout the central
> part of the United States. We have built many dams in the Texas area. We've built
> most of the lakes that Texas Utilites uses for power plant cooling and makeup
> water. I would be more than happy to discuss any plans you have for building a ski
> lake.
>
> We may discuss this subject here if the rest of the group is interested in the ski
> lake building process, otherwise contact me by private e-mail.
>
> Mark Beggs, P.E.
> mvb...@list-clark.com
Mike Mass
I am no expert but I am taking the first steps toward building a ski
lake
south-west of Chicago. Here is what I have found. Cost for moving dirt
about $1.30/Yrd if kept on site. 2000'x200'x10'deep lake is about
150,000 yrds
or $195,000. This assumes that the water table is close to the surface.
If your lucky and find a ravine to dam or someone who want the dirt cost
could be less. If the water table is low or big hills to move the cost
goes
way up.
Land cost here go from about $4000 up. We have limited our search to
land under
$12,000. Total budget with improvements will be about $1.3MM. Cost
dictate
the number of homes needed on the lake(we want to live there). Cheeper
land can
be found but we are trying to stay in a good school district for better
saleablity of the lots.
We have found good posibilities near highways where pits have been made
for road construction and retired gravel quaries or strip mines but
there hard to find ones that aren't already owned by some
hunting/fishing club. (fishermen and skiers don't seem to get along up
here) Other problems are flood plains and village ordinances.
We have found a piece that may work and are in the process of
negotiating with the village. For more information you can E-mail me
directly or continue the discussion here in the NG. I'll try to set up
a Web Page soon and show progress pictures as they are available.
Mike
Mi...@M2-Inc.com
ray_pulley
>
>HERE, please here, I'd be very interested in
>learning more.
>
>Mark V. Beggs wrote:
>
>>in
>>the construction of water related projects (i.e. dams/lakes) throughout the
>>central
>>part of the United States. We have built many dams in the Texas area. We've
>>built
>> most of the lakes that Texas Utilites uses for power plant cooling and makeup
>>water. I would be more than happy to discuss any plans you have for building a
>>ski
>> lake.
>>
>>We may discuss this subject here if the rest of the group is interested in the
>>ski
>> lake building process, otherwise contact me by private e-mail.
>>
>> Mark Beggs, P.E.
>> mvb...@list-clark.com
>
>Steve
>
>While you capitalists are purging my email and
>spamming me,
>don't forget to include these people:
>Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com
>Federal Trade Commission: U...@FTC.GOV
>Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of
>your own
>medicine! admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost
>$LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost $USER@$HOST
>-h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
Here is good.
Ray
sco...@yahoo.com
> about $1.30/Yrd if kept on site. 2000'x200'x10'deep lake is about
> 150,000 yrds
What is the range of acceptable depths?, most of the tourney lakes I have
skiied on are only seem to only be 5-6 ft deep (bottom of lake to top of
water). Does it require you to dig 10 deep inorder to achieve this? What
about liners/soil type to retain the water (clay?). What are the regional
differences in percolation etc (coming from the southwest) I would assume you
can't have high percolation in conjunction with high evap rates. Finally, how
do you secure the water rights? and where do you get it? (on site groundwater
pumping station?)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Mark V. Beggs
Steve Murphy wrote:
> HERE, please here, I'd be very interested in
> learning more.
Ask a question and I'll try to answer.
...Mark
Mark V. Beggs
Mike Mass wrote:
> This is a great place for the discussion of building a ski lake.
> Cost for moving dirt about $1.30/Yrd if kept on site. 2000'x200'x10'deep lake is
> about
> 150,000 yrds or $195,000. This assumes that the water table is close to the
> surface.
The $1.30/cy sounds about right if you can excavate the material with scrapers and
limit the one way haul distance to less than 1,000'. (Haul distance is the average
distance between the majority of the excavation to the waste area.)Scrapers won't be
much help if the water table is close to the surface and you can't dewater the area.
Scrapers don't get around very good in wet soft material. Excavation prices rise
significantly when you have a high water table. That's the bad news. The good news
is that with a high water table you won't have much trouble keeping the lake filled
when complete. (A high water table indicates that water is very close to the ground
surface.)
...Mark
Chet Lenox
Mark V. Beggs wrote in message <35E403D3...@list-clark.com>...
>
>Ask a question and I'll try to answer.
Aha! Great, let me run a few by you...
1) Here in Texas, you can often find large stock ponds already settled into
what looks like good ski-lake sites (wide drainage area, good soil, etc.).
What are the issues involved with "extending" these ponds to the ~2000'
required for a slalom course? Are there characteristics of the
land/pond/site that somebody could look for that makes them easier to
"extend"? In a previous message you explained that a high water table made
it significantly more difficult to dig, and hinted that you had to dewater
the area. What does that typically involve?
2) How possible is it to dam up a rural creek these days? It sure seems
like a great way to reduce the $1.30/cy excavation cost, but I know that in
the environment-friendly 90's, one doesn't significantly alter a
natural-existing structure without expecting at least a little trouble from
the government.
3) Books. Can you recommend any textbooks that cover issues involved with
small lake "fabrication" for somebody with an engineering (or at least a
somewhat technical) background? Sure, there isn't going to be "Digging A
Ski Lake for Dummies". But I'd love to be able to look at a piece of
property and, after a little poking around, determine it's feasability for a
ski-site. So at least I have some clue before I call in a professional
(like yourself). I've looked through some at the bookstore and searched
Amazon.com, but haven't ever found anything that satisfies.
Thanks for your time Mark,
Chet.
Mark V. Beggs
Chet Lenox wrote:
>
>
> 1) Here in Texas, you can often find large stock ponds already settled into
> what looks like good ski-lake sites (wide drainage area, good soil, etc.).
> What are the issues involved with "extending" these ponds to the ~2000'
> required for a slalom course? Are there characteristics of the
> land/pond/site that somebody could look for that makes them easier to
> "extend"? In a previous message you explained that a high water table made
> it significantly more difficult to dig, and hinted that you had to dewater
> the area. What does that typically involve?
First, for discussions sake, I am going to divide potential sites into two
categories. The first would be a site in which the water for the lake comes
from ground water. This probably would indicte a low lying site adjacent to a
river. The second type site would be one in which the water for the lake comes
from runoff of adjacent land. This site would be indicative of a creek that is
damed to retain the water. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. It
sounds like you are looking at sites that have natural drainage and a dam so I'm
only going to talk about this type.
The easiest site to develop would be a site with a large drainage area (couple
of square miles), 100'-200' wide flat valley floor, and fairly steep valley
walls. In addition the valley floor should be fairly flat as you travel along
its length upsrtream. A dam at the downstream end of this type of site would
provide a long narrow lake while minimizing the amount of dirt required for the
dam.
To make an existing lake longer you can 1) raise the dam crest elevation,
therefore raising the water surface elevation and extending the water further up
the valley or 2) lower the ground surface at the upstream end of the valley
(i.e. dig it out). If you raise the dam crest you need to make sure that the
new water elevation will not flood any roads or extend beyond your property.
Raising the dam crest not only makes the lake longer but will also increase the
width. Digging out the upstream end of a lake is pretty straight forward.
Dewatering is a subject in itself. Dewatering can range from grading the site
to drain to a low spot and pumping the water out of the work area, (i.e. low
tech and cheap) to very sophisticated setups requiring a series of shallow wells
or deep wells to suck the water out of the soil, (i.e. very elaborate and
expensive)
> 2) How possible is it to dam up a rural creek these days? It sure seems
> like a great way to reduce the $1.30/cy excavation cost, but I know that in
> the environment-friendly 90's, one doesn't significantly alter a
> natural-existing structure without expecting at least a little trouble from
> the government.
Daming a creek is not that uncommon. I'm not sure of what types of permits are
required in Texas. All permits are provided by the owner or engineer when we
move onto a job. Contact the local soil conservation service. They can be a
wealth of information. The NRSC, as they are called now, can provide technical
support and are normally very helpful. They will be familiar with all the
permiting requirements in your locality. I believe they can even perform some
preliminary design and feasibility calcualtions for you.
> 3) Books. Can you recommend any textbooks that cover issues involved with
> small lake "fabrication" for somebody with an engineering (or at least a
> somewhat technical) background? Sure, there isn't going to be "Digging A
> Ski Lake for Dummies". But I'd love to be able to look at a piece of
> property and, after a little poking around, determine it's feasability for a
> ski-site. So at least I have some clue before I call in a professional
> (like yourself). I've looked through some at the bookstore and searched
> Amazon.com, but haven't ever found anything that satisfies.
Not aware of any books on dam building. Look at http://www.lakeu.com. They
have a reprint of an article from Water Ski magazine that will give you a pretty
good idea of the process. Not much technical inforamtion but some site
selection criteria. The local Soil Conservation Service may have some
information on building ponds and dams.
Let me know if you have any additional questions.
...Mark
Chet Lenox
>
>Not aware of any books on dam building. Look at http://www.lakeu.com.
They
>have a reprint of an article from Water Ski magazine that will give you a
pretty
>good idea of the process.
I can't currently access that site, but it may be a temporary thing.
>Let me know if you have any additional questions.
Excellent post Mark, thanks for the time.
Chet.
BugHunter
http://www.laku.com.
Good posts, keep it going...
Eddy Celis
Chet Lenox wrote in message <6s1m7p$pn5$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...
sco...@yahoo.com
> 2) How possible is it to dam up a rural creek these days? It sure seems
> like a great way to reduce the $1.30/cy excavation cost, but I know that in
> the environment-friendly 90's, one doesn't significantly alter a
> natural-existing structure without expecting at least a little trouble from
> the government.
>
Nearly, impossible! You would have to do an EA, EIS, etc... and secure the
water rights. Involve all steakholders upstream and downstream. Even rural
creeks fall under Federal and State regulations, and no state in the union is
giving away water in any form.
T.V. (former developer/reviewer of water quality standards for the State of
Arizona)
Phil Yastrow
I am the purveyor of www.laku.com and am glad I caught this thread.
There is an extreme amount of interest in the subject of lake building,
as is obvious from the amount of email and snail mail I have received
since writing the articles for Water Ski Mag in 1991.
My website at http://www.laku.com is not really 'Lake Building for
Dummies' but there is enough stuff there for people to decide if they
really want to build and maintain a ski lake. Every project is
different, but earthmoving experts like Mark Beggs can offer a lot of
expertise.
Phil Yastrow
Dane Shelby Coke
: 1) Here in Texas, you can often find large stock ponds already settled into
: what looks like good ski-lake sites (wide drainage area, good soil, etc.).
: What are the issues involved with "extending" these ponds to the ~2000'
: required for a slalom course? Are there characteristics of the
: land/pond/site that somebody could look for that makes them easier to
I am pretty sure that Jay Bennett took two existing catfish ponds and
extended them while building a third pond. These three ponds all run
parallel to each other with strips of land in between each.
As far as the mentioned $40k that he spent, I would imagine that was in
earthwork not the property costs. His actual property costs were still
probably low even though the compound is many acres. It is located north
of Baton Rouge in a rural area formerly farmed.
After seeing all these post I am relived that I am not the only one with
dreams of a personal ski lake.
dcoke
Chet Lenox
sco...@yahoo.com wrote in message <6s3qe5$brv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Nearly, impossible! You would have to do an EA, EIS, etc... and secure the
>water rights. Involve all steakholders upstream and downstream. Even rural
>creeks fall under Federal and State regulations, and no state in the union
is
>giving away water in any form.
It looks like we have a disagreement, since Mark mentions that it's "Done
all the time". What is an EA? I assume an EIS is a "Environmental Impact
Statement", but I'm just guessing.
>T.V. (former developer/reviewer of water quality standards for the State of
>Arizona)
I'm assuming your location makes you skeptical of the process. Of the three
ski lakes I know of in AZ (Buchli, Crystal Pointe, and Lakeside), I'm pretty
sure that all are holes filled with water pumped from wells with minimal
runoff and no "creek daming". On the other hand, just about every lake I
know of in the Austin, TX area (Frameswitch, Aquaplex, Zorn) relies on
"partial running" creeks.
Like I mentioned, I'm just looking for info. But it would be a real bummer
if "Nearly Impossible" was the rule on creek usage.
Chet.
Chet Lenox
Dane Shelby Coke wrote in message <6s3qel$cti$1...@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>...
>
>As far as the mentioned $40k that he spent, I would imagine that was in
>earthwork not the property costs.
$40k/lake still seems like a screaming deal for earth moving, based on what
I've heard. He must have either a great price from his earth-movers or
gotten a significant advantage from the in-place ponds. Speaking of great
prices on earthmoving, has anyone heard of success stories with doing it
yourself? Perhaps buying second-hand equipment and selling once your done?
Or maybe renting the equipment yourself?
>After seeing all these post I am relived that I am not the only one with
>dreams of a personal ski lake.
The first step is admitting that you have "a problem"... Only then can you
proceed to recovery. :)
Chet.
Mark Lenox
> Nearly, impossible! You would have to do an EA, EIS, etc... and secure the
> water rights. Involve all steakholders upstream and downstream. Even rural
> creeks fall under Federal and State regulations, and no state in the union is
> giving away water in any form.
>
> Arizona)
Water regulations (and perceptions) out west are alot different than
what we deal with around here. My parents were involved in a ski lake
construction project in Arizona (Lakeside Ski Village), and it was as
you described. Very expensive, and a regulatory PITA. Around here in
Tennessee, however, it is substantially easier. The whole concept of
water rights just doesn't apply. We have alot of rainfall and water is
generally something you want to get rid of to prevent flooding. Land is
cheap, and the department of agriculture is very cooperative helping
"farmers" build large stock ponds. Army Corps of Engineers approval is
required for dams over 25' high. I know of one lake, recently built for
around $150K that they just pump water in from a nearby stream on the
rare occasion that they need it. If I wanted to sink an Ag well in on
my property and start pumping water indefinitely, nobody would say a
word, although the neighbors would think I was crazy (they're probably
right). Another ski lake in this area built a couple years ago does dam
up a small (infrequently running) stream, and I can absolutely assure
you that they didn't go through an EIS. I am sure Arizona would have
made them jump through all sorts of hoops, just for the hell of it (got
to keep the bureaucrats employed, you know). TN is pretty easy this
way.
As a private individual "farmer", building a ski lake is no problem,
regulatory or otherwise. When you start doing things like turning it
into a housing development, stand by, all kinds of regulatory things
start popping up. Phone service, power, roads, water service, fire
plugs, zoning...
BTW, I really think that a reasonable lake can be built with around 25
acres of flat ground moving around 70,000 cubic yards of dirt. If you
use the dirt you dig out of the middle to build a berm around the
outside, you decrease the distance you have to move it, and therefore
the cost, while getting the desired depth. At the reference $1.30/yd^3,
that's under $100,000 worth of digging. 25 acres of fairly flat pasture
around here is well under $80,000. Add around $20,000 for a covered
dock, boat ramp and slalom course and you're still under $200,000. Of
course, your mileage may vary... I know one guy who built a ski lake
entirely with a dozer, pushing dirt a very short distance, it's a little
short, but it still skis OK.
The best advice I can give anybody building a ski lake is to "do it
alone". If you start out with a group of friends to build a lake, it is
very easy to end up with a group of enemies. Too much money changing
hands and few things can turn a situation nasty faster than money.
Plus, you almost always end up with a couple of "hangers on" who want
something for nothing, and couldn't pay for it even if they wanted to.
Second best option is to get a developer to do it and just be prepared
to pay a higher price per lot.
My $0.02.
Mark Lenox
Bigd...@aol.com
Not the 10 ft somebody suggested. Also remember that Lousiana is swamp so
soil conditions are good for lakes. No rocks or boulders to move. Mr. Bennet
said he drilled a well to fill the lakes. No diverted streams. The 40G I'm
sure was for digging and, scraping.
In article <6s402q$om1$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
--
David
Mark Beggs
BugHunter wrote:
> Try;
> http://www.laku.com.
>
> >Mark V. Beggs wrote in message <35E4492B...@list-clark.com>...
> >>
> >> Look at http://www.lakeu.com.
Bughunter is correct. Sorry about that.
...Mark
ray_pulley
>
>
>Dane Shelby Coke wrote in message <6s3qel$cti$1...@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>...
>>
>>As far as the mentioned $40k that he spent, I would imagine that was in
>>earthwork not the property costs.
>
>$40k/lake still seems like a screaming deal for earth moving, based on what
>I've heard. He must have either a great price from his earth-movers or
>gotten a significant advantage from the in-place ponds. Speaking of great
>prices on earthmoving, has anyone heard of success stories with doing it
>yourself? Perhaps buying second-hand equipment and selling once your done?
>Or maybe renting the equipment yourself?
>
>>After seeing all these post I am relived that I am not the only one with
>>dreams of a personal ski lake.
>
>
>The first step is admitting that you have "a problem"... Only then can you
>proceed to recovery. :)
>
>Chet.
>
>
Might be wrong, but I thought Jeff Rodgers' lake at home was a do it yourself
deal, and maybe the one at Thompson Ski Ranch in CA.
Ray
Tim Harper
same problem.
How do non-rich people finance something like this? Would you be willing
to pay to use a lake if I dig it? How much? By the hour or the day? Do
you want to pitch tents nearby or do you need luxury accommodations?
What's your bid on your favorite tee... er slalom time?
Any ideas on whether or not its possible to pay off (or at least
partially recoup) the investment in something like this.
I saw a ski lake for rent in Washington for $1750 a week. One for sale
in Montana for $695K.
Phil Yastrow (from laku.com) has posted his clubs bylaws and
expenses/dues on the web. This is very useful stuff. BTW he's a good
guy, we work for the same company.
I agree with the earlier statements about partnerships, but my reality
says I will search for the best folks I can find, with similar goals,
etc. At least for me its not rational to do it all alone.
What about $10 per hour or $100 per day, double that with boat included?
ray_pulley
Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a lot or home on one of the already established
ski lakes around here and there?
It would also seem to make sense to consider paying for the whole thing (and
then some) by developing a small project with lots for sale (yeah, I know,
headaches, permits, etc...).
I know some states and areas are less intrusive into people's lives than CA, but
I find it difficult to imagine that this type of project can be undertaken
anywhere in the US without a significant amount of regulatory BS, permits or
whatever it may be. Can you do anything of any size without a EIS anymore?
How could the local inspector/assessor or whatever miss a 2000' lake that
appears on your property?
Just curious,
Ray
EFW5414
>in Montana for $695K.
Man is obviuosly on drugs
Mark Kovalcson
lot cheaper and then you get to enjoy the entire lake as well and not
just have a little puddle.
I just don't see the draw to building a small lake to put a ski course
in. I understand that the serious skiers who are in training want to
train every day and living on one of these would help, but for the rest
of us who enjoy the sport but will never reach Wade Cox or Andy Maple
status there is so much more to being on the lake.
You can't get away from it all in your back yard, and I'm not sure I
would like to hear the sound of tournament ski boats at the crack of
dawn every morning when I am not up for it.
Also if you were going to spend money to rent or time share one of these
with a boat, why not just go to a place like Gordon Rathbun's. He
provides the boat, instruction and the environment in Acapulco is
probably a lot more interesting than a puddle.
Just a thought.
sco...@yahoo.com
> Water regulations (and perceptions) out west are alot different than
> Around here in Tennessee, however, it is substantially easier. The whole >
> concept of water rights just doesn't apply. We have alot of rainfall and > >
> water is generally something you want to get rid of to prevent flooding. > >
> Land is cheap, and the department of agriculture is very cooperative helping
> "farmers" build large stock ponds.
I am sure that the points mentioned are all valid, but I do wonder about the
practical implementations of the senario you present. How do you avoid the
federal regulations (Clean Water Act, what if some endangered bird starts
hanging out)? And also, I understand you can operate under the pretense of a
"farmers stock pond", but I would consider that a high risk long term. I
would want my investment in the lake and the activities on it to be
protected. I.E. once you and a couple of buddies have some trailers in close
proximity and are out there skiing on it every weekend, you may open yourself
up to alot of potential litigation (if you don't farm anything and have no
stock). Just some things to consider? If you could keep it quiet and not
build up any infrastructure, I am sure you could get away with it.
watersk...@my-dejanews.com
efw...@aol.com wrote:
> Man is obviuosly on drugs
Thats because when you build your own lake and sell
part of it to you friends and neighbors....
Its just like listening to Country Music:
You loose your wife, your house, your kids, your friends, your
money and your piece of mind.
My shrink says if you are so swayed:
Build a lake and own it yourself and you make the rules.
Mooseman
Visit: http://www.waterski-online.com
Buy a Boat!
Sell A Board!
Read the News!
Post an Event!
Get A Clue!
Have Some Fun Before You Croak!
Chet Lenox
established
>ski lakes around here and there?
Depends on how many are here and there. Lots on ski-lakes in Arizona are
astronomical, with a bare lot selling at Lakeside (45 minutes out of town)
going for $120k+ and I'm sure much more than that at Crystal Point (in
town). On the other hand, the going price for a lot at Aquaplex (20 minutes
from Austin, TX) is ~$30k. I'm not sure if the ratio of lake development
cost for Phoenix/Austin is the same, but I suppose it could be pretty close.
>It would also seem to make sense to consider paying for the whole thing
(and
>then some) by developing a small project with lots for sale (yeah, I know,
>headaches, permits, etc...).
I'll have to go with Mark on this one, I'm looking for a ski-lake, not a new
career. Ski clubs, fine. Renting, sure. But selling lots opens up a
serious can of worms.
>anywhere in the US without a significant amount of regulatory BS, permits
or
>whatever it may be. Can you do anything of any size without a EIS anymore?
That's why TX=$30k/lot and AZ=$120k/lot.
Chet.
Chet Lenox
>Sounds like a houseboat parked near a ski course like I am doing is a
>lot cheaper and then you get to enjoy the entire lake as well and not
>just have a little puddle.
Very true. A large recreational lake has a bunch of advantages, especially
when you are entertaining or looking for relaxation time.
>train every day and living on one of these would help, but for the rest
>of us who enjoy the sport but will never reach Wade Cox or Andy Maple
>status there is so much more to being on the lake.
I disagree. You don't have to be Wade or Andy to appreciate a man-made lake
in your backyard. For me, it's the change that serious convenience can make
to a whole family's lifestyle. Want to take a quick set after work? No
sweat, drop the boat in the water and you and your wife are skiing in 15
minutes from pulling into the garage. Worried about spending enough quality
time with the family? Don't worry anymore, the activities of the lakeshore
will suck the kids out of their rooms and away from the Nintendos (along
with a host of friends, I'm guessing). Can't figure out how to talk with
your 16 year old son? Try a discussion on how to get around 5-ball at 22'
off or how to land a W5F, that might work. Concerned that the children (and
grandchildren) won't want to come home and visit? Not a problem, they'll
make special arrangements to be there, especially before Regionals and
Nationals (remember, they've done a lot of skiing by now).
Sure, it's idealized. But for me, water-skiing is about family. Hitting
the lake every other weekend and a few long holidays creates a different
lifestyle than having your boat on a lift in the backyard. I suppose the
fact that it is man-made is secondary to that...
>You can't get away from it all in your back yard, and I'm not sure I
>would like to hear the sound of tournament ski boats at the crack of
>dawn every morning when I am not up for it.
True, but in-boards are pretty quite these days. Besides the occasional
"crunch" of a Mastercraft driving onto shore, you'd probably never hear a
thing.
Chet.
sco...@yahoo.com
> It looks like we have a disagreement, since Mark mentions that it's "Done
> all the time". What is an EA? I assume an EIS is a "Environmental Impact
> Statement", but I'm just guessing.
I don't dissagree with Mark, the southwest is very different regarding water
regs. An EA is a Environmental Assessment, which is just a precursor to an
EIS which generally is just another hoop intended to weed out the weak in the
wallet.
> I'm assuming your location makes you skeptical of the process. Of the three
> ski lakes I know of in AZ (Buchli, Crystal Pointe, and Lakeside), I'm pretty
> sure that all are holes filled with water pumped from wells with minimal
> runoff and no "creek daming".
The three lakes mentioned fall under the "urban lake" regs. Basically,
decorative ponds coattailing a residential development. Maricopa county has
discontinued the further development (approval) of urban lakes. (due to the
"inefficient" water use, and high evap rates blah, blah....)
> Like I mentioned, I'm just looking for info. But it would be a real bummer
> if "Nearly Impossible" was the rule on creek usage.
Out here it would be much easier to pump groundwater than try to divert a
creek, although it may be easy in some parts of the country, I still would be
skeptical, because you would want to secure a long time water (100 year)
source. If you don't have the rights, and 20 years from now the TVA moves in
a pulls water upstream making your creek run dry, your going to have to get
the water somewhere else. If you have the water secured, it takes a lot to
revoke that water right. I am assuming you are trying to develop you lake
long term with infrastruce, not just fill a hole with water and ski until
something messes it up and walk away from it all. If you are going to fill
it and ski it, and not worry about it, it probably would be very easy.
sco...@yahoo.com
> Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a lot or home on one of the already established
> ski lakes around here and there?
> then some) by developing a small project with lots for sale (yeah, I know,
> headaches, permits, etc...).
This is more at what I was trying to get at. Secure the water, then buy the
property and go through the whole deal to make it legit and you would have a
great place that may even make a little extra money to reinvest in a club
house and concrete boat ramp, with an above ground tank for fuel etc....
> I find it difficult to imagine that this type of project can be undertaken
> anywhere in the US without a significant amount of regulatory BS, permits or
> whatever it may be. Can you do anything of any size without a EIS anymore?
> How could the local inspector/assessor or whatever miss a 2000' lake that
> appears on your property?
I agree, if you are going to invest upward of 40k in construction and ?k in
property, you would not wan't to be sneaking you boats in and out of the
water.
Newberry Springs in CA (30 min out of Barstow) is a good example (Wet Set,
Cheyenne etc..), half a dozen tourney lakes. built in the 80s and back, I
think blank lots 50 X 100 start at about 100k or so, I am sure some owners are
luking around this news group trying to keep it a secret. I have not skiied
there in 10 years or so (don't quote me on lot price or size), but there is a
lot of lake building experience out there.
Chet Lenox
>
>hanging out)? And also, I understand you can operate under the pretense of
a
>"farmers stock pond", but I would consider that a high risk long term. I
The use of an Ag exemption is extremely common for non-farming land-owners
of all types (including ski lakes) in Texas. Of course, in that case it's
to avoid paying excessive property taxes. Not high risk at all. Sure,
you've got to run some cattle on your land, which requires maintenance. But
it must be worth it, judging by the frequency of use.
Chet.
Mark Beggs
>
> Nearly, impossible! You would have to do an EA, EIS, etc... and secure the
> water rights. Involve all steakholders upstream and downstream. Even rural
> creeks fall under Federal and State regulations, and no state in the union is
> giving away water in any form.
>
> T.V. (former developer/reviewer of water quality standards for the State of
> Arizona)
This is probably true in Arizona and the arid southwest. I believe it is a
different story in other parts of the country where you get 30 or more inches of
annual rainfall and no dense population centers.
Mark Beggs
Mark Beggs
Chet Lenox wrote:
> ...gotten a significant advantage from the in-place ponds. Speaking of great
>
> prices on earthmoving, has anyone heard of success stories with doing it
> yourself? Perhaps buying second-hand equipment and selling once your done?
> Or maybe renting the equipment yourself?
>
I would talk to someone who has done this before I jumped into a project like
this. Even when the project is a simple "dig and dump" project you can run
into problems. If there is an embankment (dam) to build you will have even
more to contend with as well as additional equipment requirements.
The biggest risk involved with renting equipment is those pesky( :- ) )
equipment dealers want their money even when the weather is too wet to work.
It is no fun paying for rented equipment when you can't work. Believe me.
"Been there, done that" way too many tmes. Just for grins here is some ball
park rental prices for various pieces of equipment:
Komatsu EX400 Trackhoe with 3.5 cy bucket $10,200/month
Volvo A25 6x6 Offroad dump truck (need for those wet excavation jobs) $7,250/
month, min 2 reqd
Scraper 23cy bowl $15,000/month nember depends on length of haul (use for dry
to semi dry conditions)
Caterpillar D8 with dozer blade $9,500/month min 1 reqd
Caterpillar D9 push tractor (used to push scrapers so they can load faster)
$10,500/month
On top of the above charges you still have to pay for fuel, oil , grease,
mobilization to and from the site, sales tax, and someone to run and service
equipment. There are also safety issues. Having an employee injured on the
jobsite is really bad, but having a good friend / skiing buddy injured woule be
devastating.
...Mark
Chet Lenox
sco...@yahoo.com wrote in message <6s6dio$d1i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Out here it would be much easier to pump groundwater than try to divert a
It may be easier, but I'm guessing it ain't cheap! :) I'm pretty sure that
Lakeside has a healthy power bill every month to run their well.
>the water somewhere else. If you have the water secured, it takes a lot to
>revoke that water right.
I think we are doing an apples (AZ) oranges (TN, TX) deal here. I agree
with your statements on protecting your investment though.
>long term with infrastruce, not just fill a hole with water and ski until
>something messes it up and walk away from it all. If you are going to fill
>it and ski it, and not worry about it, it probably would be very easy.
Enough infrastructure to live on would be fine. A home, a driveway (gravel
is fine), septic system, a domestic well (or maybe city water, depends on
the spot). It just doesn't seem like that's anymore than anybody else with
a patch of land they want to live on. They just don't have a large stock
pond like mine (for my cattle and skiing). I'm certainly not interested in
the development-type infrastructure: Paved roads with curbs/drainage, large
integrated water/sewage systems, street lights, gates, etc.
Chet.
ray_pulley
>
>Sounds like a houseboat parked near a ski course like I am doing is a
>lot cheaper and then you get to enjoy the entire lake as well and not
>just have a little puddle.
>
>in. I understand that the serious skiers who are in training want to
>of us who enjoy the sport but will never reach Wade Cox or Andy Maple
>status there is so much more to being on the lake.
>
>would like to hear the sound of tournament ski boats at the crack of
>dawn every morning when I am not up for it.
>
>with a boat, why not just go to a place like Gordon Rathbun's. He
>provides the boat, instruction and the environment in Acapulco is
>probably a lot more interesting than a puddle.
>
>Just a thought.
>
Yep, the wife think's the trip to Gordon's would be just the ticket next year,
and who am I to argue? <g>
Like you, seems to me a house on a lake or someplace like Discovery Bay here in
CA gives you the best of both worlds. The houseboat is interesting, too, but
does limit you to the lake it is on. You do have the choice of trailer the ski
boat wherever, either way.
To each his own, I suppose.
Ray
Chet Lenox
>
>I would talk to someone who has done this before I jumped into a project
like
>this.
That's why I'm talking to you. :)
>The biggest risk involved with renting equipment is those pesky( :- ) )
>equipment dealers want their money even when the weather is too wet to
work.
That would be a bummer. Of course, this summer season in Texas you could
have gotten a whole BUNCH of work done before Charley showed up.
>Scraper 23cy bowl $15,000/month nember depends on length of haul (use for
dry
>to semi dry conditions)
So how many cy/day will a unit like this move on average? Assuming 8
hrs/day, soft dry soil and a relatively competent operator?
>equipment. There are also safety issues. Having an employee injured on
the
>jobsite is really bad, but having a good friend / skiing buddy injured
woule be
>devastating.
Good point.
Chet.
Mike Mass
skiing except the association prohibits gas engines. The association
was set up by mostly fishermen. I have been trying to convince them
that a ski boat is quiter than most lawn mowers and the sight of a skier
cutting up the coarse a dawn would be like a beautiful sunrise. (They
don't agree)
The lake here is clear and clean but of the 100 homes on the lake only
about 10 use the lake regularly and many nice summer weekends go by
without anybody using the lake. I think the concern of noise, traffic
or danger is unfounded. Most of us learned to ski on public waters. A
commumitee of skiers couldn't posible use a lake all day every day nor
do I think they would risk running over there neighbor.
Having a lake in your back yard is like being on vacation 365 days a
year only you interupt your vacation daily by going to work. What
better way to raise kids. Hope they get the idea that they may need to
work in there life!
Mike
Chet Lenox wrote:
>
> Mark Kovalcson wrote in message <35E6921B...@usit.net>...
> >Sounds like a houseboat parked near a ski course like I am doing is a
> >lot cheaper and then you get to enjoy the entire lake as well and not
> >just have a little puddle.
>
> Very true. A large recreational lake has a bunch of advantages, especially
> when you are entertaining or looking for relaxation time.
>
> >train every day and living on one of these would help, but for the rest
> >of us who enjoy the sport but will never reach Wade Cox or Andy Maple
> >status there is so much more to being on the lake.
>
> I disagree. You don't have to be Wade or Andy to appreciate a man-made lake
> in your backyard. For me, it's the change that serious convenience can make
> to a whole family's lifestyle. Want to take a quick set after work? No
> sweat, drop the boat in the water and you and your wife are skiing in 15
> minutes from pulling into the garage. Worried about spending enough quality
> time with the family? Don't worry anymore, the activities of the lakeshore
> will suck the kids out of their rooms and away from the Nintendos (along
> with a host of friends, I'm guessing). Can't figure out how to talk with
> your 16 year old son? Try a discussion on how to get around 5-ball at 22'
> off or how to land a W5F, that might work. Concerned that the children (and
> grandchildren) won't want to come home and visit? Not a problem, they'll
> make special arrangements to be there, especially before Regionals and
> Nationals (remember, they've done a lot of skiing by now).
>
> Sure, it's idealized. But for me, water-skiing is about family. Hitting
> the lake every other weekend and a few long holidays creates a different
> lifestyle than having your boat on a lift in the backyard. I suppose the
> fact that it is man-made is secondary to that...
>
> >You can't get away from it all in your back yard, and I'm not sure I
> >would like to hear the sound of tournament ski boats at the crack of
> >dawn every morning when I am not up for it.
>
GRe1043421
ready to build his lake. Let's also assume that the soils etc. and compaction
is favorable and done correct, what size would a dam have to be to hold back a
lake 12'-15' deep 2000' long and 200' wide?
Michael Rothwell
Width and depth are inmaterial - you only need to worry
about the the depth of the water at the dam. I dont have
the formulas handy, but it would depend alot on the type of
soil being used to make the dam.
Michael
Michael Rothwell
Uhhhh - That isn't what I meant.
OK - as I re-read this I found a major error. I meant width
and length, not depth. Depth IS the determining factor.
Michael
JeffS
Tarrant County.....
DCM98 wrote in message <199808232033...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Does anyone have any information about companies that will dig an
artificial
>ski lake? I know this is becoming more popular as the public lakes get
more
>traffic and we see more restrictions and regulations, etc. I live in Texas
and
>do not know of any companies around here that are in this business.
>
>Thanks.
>
JeffS
built their lake as a "group effort". Would be interesting to hear about
their trials and tribulations as a "family". I live in the Dallas/Ft. Worth
area, and would be interested to find a couple of folks interested in
finding out exactly what it would take to build a private ski lake. There's
one not too far from me
(http://graphics.nich.edu/scr/texas/skihaven/index.htm), but is very
private, and discourages use of your own, personal boat. Some others are
slightly farther, but are owned by professional skiers or teachers. The
remainder are semi-public which pits the "skiers" against the "fisherman"
and general "lake groupies".
Everytime I fly in/out of DFW airport (which is often), I see all of these
fairly good sized tanks (ponds) that I would imagine could be easily
converted to private ski lakes......wishful thinking I guess.
This is a GREAT thread...just along the line of what I've been
thinking/looking for.....thanks for all of the comments. What a great
sport!
Jeff
Mark Lenox wrote in message <35E5AC...@cti-pet.com-nospam>...
>sco...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Nearly, impossible! You would have to do an EA, EIS, etc... and secure
the
>> water rights. Involve all steakholders upstream and downstream. Even
rural
>> creeks fall under Federal and State regulations, and no state in the
union is
>> giving away water in any form.
>>
>> T.V. (former developer/reviewer of water quality standards for the State
of
>> Arizona)
>.................................
>Mark Lenox
Phil Yastrow
>
> I'd be interested to hear from the folks at LAKU, as they seemed to have
> built their lake as a "group effort". Would be interesting to hear about
> their trials and tribulations as a "family".
Our trials and tribulations as a 'family' are pretty normal for any
group of people that get together. Some conflict, some bliss. We
really only had two people involved at the very start, Randy Hocking and
myself. This was in 1989. We had the property under contract in January
1990, contingent on receiving all of the permits. I am amazed to say
that we got all the permits on May 23, 1990 - with a lot of work! From
that point Tom Brodzinski was as much of an owner as us due to his
participation. In fact over the years, we made Tom an approximate 5%
owner. To this day we still have some governmental issues, but nothing
to keep us from skiing.
The club grew to 4 people during construction in 1991 (started June
10-finished November 3) with the addition of Tom Benzel. If you look at
the Laku Founders photo http://laku.com/gifs/founders.jpg you can see us
all (l to r. Benny, me, Chris Brodziski, Randy and Patti, Deb and Tom.
We had just come back from the Michelob Dry Pro Water Ski Tour (or
whatever beer it was) - that is why we are showing off our bottles. We
no longer allow glass near the lake! By the way, we weren't sure if my
wife Ellen and Benny's wife Susan weren't into the idea of the lake at
this point, or just didn't like hanging out in the bottom of a gravel
pit.
Once the first lake was finished people started to show up. 1992 was our
first ski season. We were up to ten members before long. We expanded to
19 families upon completion of lake 2 in 1994.
The cliques started to form and we have had some issues over the years,
but no different than anyone else will experience. The biggest issues
are related to the amount of work people are doing compared to other
people. It is human nature to think that you are doing more work than
anyone else, but it is usually not true. Everyone has their own little
niche. I am into maintenance (mowing, watering), Tom is into
construction (he owns both a welder and torch), and so on. We really do
have a good group of people, there is just a lot to do. After the 1997
regionals, construction has tapered off, and we are into more of a
maintenance mode.
If we were more organized with task lists and stuff the work may be more
evenly distributed. We need to spend time figuring that out. Also, if
you plan on hosting tournaments, you better start working on your
officials ratings soon. We still don't have a regular judge for all
three events, so we need to bring in someone from the outside. Do not
underestimate the importance of getting officials ratings. Tom and
Randy can be chief boat drivers, I am a technical controller and
assistant scorer, Deb is a chief scorer, then we a couple of safety
directors and almost everyone is an assistant slalom judge.
I claim that building the lake is the easy part. Building the club and
the 'ski community' is the challenge.
Phil
JD6074
>> 150,000 yrds
>
>What is the range of acceptable depths?, most of the tourney lakes I have
>skiied on are only seem to only be 5-6 ft deep
Since I am heading a group in the process of building a ski lake, let me impart
what we have learned. First, the best place to create a lake is on flat land
that you dig a hole in. Diverting streams, damming rivers and the such are too
complicated and costly. Find the land then contact the local soil conservation
agency and they will test it for you to see if it will hold water (usually for
free). Second, the lake need only be 6ft deep, 2000 ft. long and 150 ft wide
with a 10:1 slope. The volume of excavation required can be estimated with
enough accuracy by using the prismoidal formula:
(A + 4B +C) Depth
V=-------------------- X------------
6 27
A = volume of excavation at ground surface (square feet) 2000 x 150 = 300,000
B = area of the excavation at the mid-depth point (square feet) In this case:
4x(1940x900)=698,400
C = area of excavation at the bottom of the lake - in the case 1880 x 30 =
56,400
Depth is 6 feet
So.........................
(A + 4B + C) = 1,054,800
1,054,800 6
V=-------------- X-------- = 39,066 cubic yards
6 27
I have found pricing from .65 cents per yd3 to $2.00 per yd3. Shop your
project well. Also, remember that the above formula does not take into
consideration the build-up of the levee around the lake. As your going down
the sides are going up, so you might only have to dig a 4 -5 ft. hole in the
ground. A good contractor will recognize this and bid accordingly.
Good Luck
jhd,iii
Reg Burgesss
JD6074 wrote:
re levee; True, but you would need SOME allowance for banks. I don't know how
much, but you probably wouldn't want the lake to be "full to the brim" when
finished, for reasons of wind shelter as well as aesthetics, etc.
R
Mark Lenox
JD6074 wrote:
> Second, the lake need only be 6ft deep, 2000 ft. long and 150 ft wide
> with a 10:1 slope.
Minimum size, no jump ramp. Slalom and Tricks only.
I agree entirely about digging from a flat piece of ground and pumping the water
in. It is by far the best approach. Not very intuitive, but once you think about
it a little bit, it becomes very obvious.
Personally, I think the ideal size is around 2300' long, and about 235' wide with
offset islands for slalom only (no jump). I've skied on lakes as long as 2500' and
they were obviously too long (wind effects them too much). Also, lakes as short as
1800', which were just too short, lots of problems with running into your own
wakes, etc. 300'+ wide is needed for a jump, but if you don't plan to install a
jump, staying under 250' helps keep things smooth when the wind starts to kick up.
The landing zone for the jump needs to be 10' deep minimum for safety. I think the
extra 85' in width gives a little better safety factor, and the 300' in length
makes it easier to drive and keep the water roller free, without hurting the
resistance to wind too much.
Mark Lenox
Mike Mass
Your numbers seem about right but the problem is finding that flat area.
What area of the country are you build the lake in? What are the land
cost in your area? Are you putting roads, homes, etc in?
Mike
JD6074
>part of it to you friends and neighbors....
>
>Its just like listening to Country Music:
>You loose your wife, your house, your kids, your friends, your
>money and your piece
Although my situation may be unique, I'll take issue with the above statement.
My group has worked together for the past six years on a leased lake. We
started the project from scratch and created a very nice facility. We just
wanted our own place so we put our plan into place. Without going into
significant detail, we formed an LLC and ventured forth. We have a good track
record of working together, are economically equal and have strong work ethics.
My point is that with the right group it can and will work. Putting the group
together is the hard part.
jhd,iii
JD6074
>What area of the country are you build the lake in? What are the land
>cost in your area? Are you putting roads, homes, etc in?
>
>
Let me explain the project a bit more. The first lake will be a slalom and
trick lake only (hence the narrow construction). The area we are building in
is NW Louisiana. The soil content is gallion silt loam (clay) which is ideal
for holding water. The land costs in this area run from 1,000 - 4,000 acre
(rural). We are purchasing approx. 33 acres. We plan to put in home sites and
use some of the "waste" dirt to build house pads (though all homes will be pier
and beam, saving the cost of compaction to 95%).
Initially the road will be constructed of stripped shingle. Don't laugh. Put
down a 6" layer of torn up roof shingles, spray it down with diesel fuel and
let the sun hit it and you've got an asphalt road. It takes some smoothing out
and adding to once complete but is far less expensive. I'm please to impart
what I know relative to the subject.
jhd,iii