1st referee calling out of rotation on the serving team?
DavCrowder
situation. The call concerns an out of rotation call on the receiving
team.
The 1st referee checks the line up of the receiving to insure they are
ready to begin the rally. He observes that the receiving team is out
of rotation. He signals for serves. A legal serve is executed. The
2nd referee does not whistle the play dead and charge the receiving
team with out of rotation.
The question is should the 1st referee enforce the out of rotation
call on the receiving team?
This situation is quite common in high school volleyball where the 2nd
referee is new and may not recognize the out of rotation situation.
I know that the 1st referee has the authority to make this call,
but if he makes the call he is either not watching for a legal serve
or not watching the receiving team at the moment of serve. So technically he
should not be ruling on this since he can not watch both situations at once.
I know the correct solution is to train the 2nd referee to make the correct
call,
but this does occur quite often. Does the 1st referee make the call and
possiblity
embarass his 2nd referee and draw the ire of the receiving team's coach, or
does he let the
rally play out I also know that the 1st referee should discuss this situation
with the 2nd
referee in the post match conference.
I am interested in polling everyone as to whether the call should be made or
not by the
1st referee and why?
Thanks in advance,
Dave Crowder
Todd Haverkos
> I am interested in what is considered correct procedure for this
> situation. The call concerns an out of rotation call on the receiving
> team.
>
> The 1st referee checks the line up of the receiving to insure they
> are ready to begin the rally. He observes that the receiving team
> is out of rotation. He signals for serves. A legal serve is
> executed. The 2nd referee does not whistle the play dead and charge
> the receiving team with out of rotation.
>
> The question is should the 1st referee enforce the out of rotation
> call on the receiving team?
Hi Dave,
This one depends on the ruleset, or more specifically, the referee
techniques associated with the ruleset. I'll let someone who
actually officiates Federation (NFSHSA) high school play answer from
the HS perspective.
NAGWS allows for the R1 to whistle this fault after following this
procedure:
"The recommended procedure before the first referee whistles a
positional fault on the receiving team is: 1) confer with the
second referee regarding illegal player positioning. 2)
And/or discreetly signal to indicate the illegality. " [NAGWS
procedures 2.J]
The interpretation of USAV rules, however, implies that the R1 is not
authorized to whistle this fault.
USAV indoor rule 26.3.2.2 reads "Only the first referee is authorized
to...decide upon faults of ther server and of the positions of the
serving team." The R2 responsibilities read slightly differently in
27.3.3.1: "During the match, the second referee decides, whistles and
signals...position faults of the receiving team."
In the Comparison of Techniques and Mechanics of NAGWS and USAV
2001-2002 document developed jointly by Marcia Alterman and Tom Blue
and given to all PAVO officials, there is a situation described as
"First Referee Whistling Positional Faults On Receiving Team." For
NAGWS, it states "Confer with the R2; discretly signal to R2." For
USAV, it states, "R1 is authorized to check position faults for
serving team only; R2 is authorized to check position faults for
receiving team only."
Best Regards,
--
Todd Haverkos t...@vbref.org
http://www.vbref.org/
VY
things are true:
1) The 1st referee CAN make that call, as any call the 2nd referee
can do he can do also. (right?)
2) If the 1st referee notices something that would warranty a call,
whether he noticed it by virtue of accident or fate or whatever, he
SHOULD call it. I think actually that he HAS to.
3) So therefore, even if he checks up on something on purpose, he can
also call it.
4) I just checked NAGWS RULEBOOK: DUTIES OF THE FIRST REFEREE, 2)
During the Match, "H. Make calls involving back row attackers and
blockers, as well as position faults."
EVEN if 4 didn't exist, you'd want the official to make the correct
call no matter what. So yes, the first official should make the
appropriate call and then talk to the second referee about it after
the match (or maybe in between games?) The two officials are a
partnership who can and should help each other. The officials are
paid to officiate the match as accurately as they can. The rulebooks
are guidelines to what should be done on the job to make this
possible, not "permissions" to observe pieces of gameplay. (right?)
What rules do you use? And could an experienced NAGWS official please
comment on my comments?
~VY
Todd Haverkos
> This is just my opinion under NAGWS rules... As far as I know these
> things are true:
>
> 1) The 1st referee CAN make that call, as any call the 2nd referee
> can do he can do also. (right?)
Correct, though the R2 really _should_ be making that call. See
below, and note that USAV's interpretation appears to differ on this.
> 2) If the 1st referee notices something that would warranty a call,
> whether he noticed it by virtue of accident or fate or whatever, he
> SHOULD call it. I think actually that he HAS to.
See my other post regarding NAGWS Techniques 2.J (page 105 of
2001-2002 book).
> What rules do you use? And could an experienced NAGWS official please
> comment on my comments?
--
Collin Powers
ref should not be looking for setters leaving too early, or blockers
switching too early, etc. If that's a problem in a match, he should call
the second ref over and ask him to monitor it more closely. However, if a
team is simply out of rotation (e.g. libero passing on the wrong side of the
back-row OPP), with nobody moving or trying to get into rotation by the time
of serve, then he should call it.
This is simply a mental error on the receiving team's fault and in many
cases would not even be noticed by the second ref. In this instance, the
first ref can check positions right before the service contact, look back at
the server, and then reconfirm that the players are still out of rotation on
the receiving team after the serve. Second ref just has to chuckle and slap
himself/herself once on the forehead.
Collin
"DavCrowder" <davcr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010914185944...@mb-mp.aol.com...
PADYMURPHY
Interantional Referee this year - at high levels R1 never calls this.
As your guidlines show the R2 is watching the reciving team.R1 serving team
But if at a slower level of game (I am being Politically correct or what?) the
R1 checks both teams are ready to aply;
R1 notices the receivers out of postion - danger here is that the R1 does not
have line-up sheets (rotation pads) before their eyes and in each set the team
coach(es) may choose to aletr their line up 4 rotation so can R1 be sure of
what they see?
Anyhows - if R1 is sure and sees receivers out of position when checking both
teams are ready to play - when the served ball from the server they are
watching comes across the net (note pls. how one does not say over allowing for
the net touch!!) across the net, if R1 sees the recievers still in the 'wrong'
postion then R1 sees a fault and Referees always blow faults they see!!?? Yes??
But good R1s should keep the team work with R2s, R3s (scorers) and Linesjudges
going right from the start by eye contact and signals. Chat conferences up at
the Referees' Stand should be kept to a bare minimum. We're there to play
volleyball not do a clinic!
Hope that tuppence worth helps from the old Emerald. and if some of the words
look funny it' anew stiffish keyboard and European patois.
Health Happiness and Pecae into the New Millennium, Paddy, Marie, Helen Lara
and Mark Murphy
Hey Ref!©
"Todd Haverkos" <t...@vbref.org> wrote in message
news:lyk7z16...@k2.onsight.com...
But lets not forget that in most Juniors and Adults competition within USAV
(save the National Championships) has a coach or player officiating as the
R2. This is also true at the Junior Qualifiers, except for the medal
playoffs. Most of the time the coach or player is little more than a net
standard support. You are lucky to have them catch all of the net fouls, as
they seem to want to ball watch rather than officiate. It is amazing that
they can catch all of the missed calls when they are coaching, but cant seem
to do it when they ref. However, I seem to have digressed. I agree that
where a uniformed, certified official is the R2 the proper techniques should
be followed. But where this does not apply, I believe it is doing the
players and the game a disservice to let the faults go uncalled.
Michael Borga
>paid to officiate the match as accurately as they can. The rulebooks
>are guidelines to what should be done on the job to make this
>possible, not "permissions" to observe pieces of gameplay. (right?)
IMHO
Yes, absolutely, positively. Especially when discussing the R1's scope.
He may over rule R2 and any other official in the team unless i am mistaken.
I am sure that many of the "trained" officials will disagree, however, mostly
because they would not want to embarrass the other official or appear to have
an incompetent on their team which could give the coaches something to gripe
about.
And We'll See You on the Beach,
Michael Borga -- Jersey Shore Volleyball Association (JSVBA)
jsvba.com -- 732-506-9449
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/jsvba">Link to JSVBA Website</A>
Wally Hendricks
It is my experience that explaining an overlap to a person who does not have a
great deal of experience is very difficult. Therefore, calling the R2 over to
the stand may or may not solve the problem. It is also my experience that a
huge number of overlaps occur that are not caught. This is true of even our
best referees. I have done evaluations for thousands of matches and many
overlaps are uncalled. In almost all cases, the missed overlaps have little
impact on the match. I have come to the conclusion that they are not so
important that I want to do something drastic to make sure that they are
called.
If you get a break in play, you can call over the R2 and explain the
situation. Alternatively, if it is really gross, you can call the R2 over
between points. However, I would not (in collegiate or USA play) whistle the
overlap myself.
The biggest problem occurs when the team is passing poorly and the coach tells
them to change positions. A primary passer is taken out of the serve
receive. Now there is a gross overlap because the team is not well trained to
react to this instruction. I would take an abnormally long look at the
receiving team and give a small twirl of my finger (indicating the overlap) to
the R2. If he does not catch it and the team continues to serve, I will call
him over and instruct him to look for something very specific. That is, say
something like "If #3 is not in front of #6 at the time of the contact of
serve, please blow your whistle and indicate out of rotation. Send the
captain to me if you are unsure about how to explain it. Otherwise, explain
it yourself." (Same instruction for left-right overlaps. Do not say something
vague like "watch for the overlap of 3 and 6.)
My decision to not call it myself comes from my experience with the value of
the call and also with the value of cooperation. I've done it in the past
when I could not get the R2 to understand the situation, but I would not do it
again. If the R2 is a player or parent and refuses to cooperate, then I
would rather replace him/her.
John Villalovos
I remember this coming up and the rules interpreter (Tom Blue) for USAV at the
time stated that it should only be the R2's call.
Myself I disagree with his interpretation. His interpretation was based on the
fact that rule 26.3.2.2 states that it is the R1's duty to call faults of the
serving team, rule 27.3.3.1 lists calling the position faults on the receiving
team, and that it is technique that is being taught.
I do agree with the fact that it is "proper technique" to have the R2 call it.
But at certain levels of USAV volleyball your R2 does NOT have the ability to
make the call. Examples could be you are officiating a 14U match and your R2
is a 13 year old who doesn't understand overlapping very well and may not be
tracking the positioning of players very well.
My main point in all of this is that the R1 MAY make the call. I agree that
the R1 should NOT make the call and the R2 should be the one making the call.
If you as the R1 make the call you are showing a lack of confidence in the
ability of your R2 to detect overlap. Sometimes this is okay and sometimes it
is not. It depends on the situation. The higher the level of the match and
the higher level of the down official you are working with the less likely you
should make the call. Now if USAV absolutely doesn't want the R1 making the
overlap call they should specifically exclude it from the R1's responsibilites
like US High school rules do.
Here are my comments from way back in 29-Sep-1999:
In article <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxx.xx.xxxxxx.xxx>,
xxx xxxxx <xxxx...@xx.xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>Subject: Re: What's the call?
>>From: john
>>Date: 23 Sep 1999 15:37:14 -0700 <del>
>>I will call overlap on the receiving team as an R1 for USAV. Especially
>>in club season if I'm working with a rookie down official (i.e. junior girl).
>
>That is protestable (USAV) as only the R2 has that responsibility
>(receiving team positional faults). You will lose the protest. Read
>the USAV rules for R1/R2 responsibilities.
Bzzzt!! Wrong answer. You would not lose a protest on this call. (I hope
it's okay to plagiarise from you :) )
According to the rule book for USAV.
Rule 26.2.2.: The first referee has the power to decide any matter involving
the game, including those not provided for in the rules.
Rule 26.3.2: During the match, ONLY the first referee is authorized to:
( various things like ball handling, serving team overlap, etc...)
Rule 27.3.3: During the match the second referee decides, whistles, and
signals:
27.3.3.1: Position faults of the receiving team.
27.3.3.2: the contact of the player with the net or the antenna
27.3.3.3: penetration into the opponent's court and space under the net
27.3.3.4: the attack-hit or blocking faults of the back row players
etc...
( Many of these items are also called by the R1 when they see the fault)
There is nothing in the rules that states it is ONLY the R2's responsibility
to call overlap on the receiving team. It is just listed as ONE of the R2's
many responsibilities.
>How can you observe the serving team's positions and potential service
>faults if you're watching the receiving team?! That's (practically)
>impossible!
I don't agree that it is practically impossible. In a large percentage of
cases the serving alignment is not in a position that you need to worry
about overlap. You need to watch for a foot fault but you also have the
line judge doing that.
<del>
>>The R1 is allowed to call positional and/or rotational faults on either team.
>>The R1 is allowed to make any decision regarding the game in FIVB and USAV.
>
>Bzzzt!! Wrong answer. See previous post/reply.
>
>>It is the R2 that is restricted in what they are allowed to call. It is
>>listed as one of the R2's duties to call overlaps on the receiving team but
>>that does not mean only the R2 can call it.
>
>Oh yes it does. USAV Rule 26.3.2.2 describes R1's role during
>service. Rule 27.3.3.1 describes R2's role during service. As long
>as I have been a USAV Official (1994), this has been the case.
I agree that it lists the R2's responsibilities and restrictions on the
R2. But I don't agree that it restricts the R1. I do say that the R2 SHOULD
make the call and I WANT them to make the call. But if I'm working with a
junior girl who does not track the setter and does not see an obvious overlap
I have no problem making the call. But if I'm working with one of my other
regional officials I am NOT going to make the call because I don't want them
losing respect from the teams.
***************************************************
My main point in this thread is that the R1 MAY make the call. I agree that
the R1 should NOT make the call and the R2 should make the call. If you as
the R1 make the call you are showing a lack of confidence in the ability
of your R2 to detect overlap. Sometimes this is okay and sometimes it is
not. It depends on the situation. The higher the level of the match and
the higher level of the down official you are working with the less likely
you should make the call. Now if USAV absolutely doesn't want the R1
making the overlap call they should specifically exclude it from the R1's
responsibilites like US High school rules do.
***************************************************
>>Since also listed as on of
>>the R2's duties is to call back row block but I don't think only the R2 can
>>call back row block faults.
>
>Proper technique would be to afford your R2 the opportunity to make
>this call prior to making it yourself (as R1). But realize that you
>discredit your R2 by making this call. This is more and more apparent
>at higher levels of play.
>
>>I would much prefer to have the R2 make the call and I definitely don't make
>>the call sometimes if I think it is a slight problem. Also if I am working
>>with a paid official and I don't want to offend them by calling something
>>that is in their area of responsibility I probably [want]
>>to foster a sense
>>of team work within the officials.
>
>Exactly! :-)
Later,
John
John Villalovos
For High School volleyball you should probably not call it. This is due to the
way High School rules are worded. They specifically list every responsibility
of the Referee and of the Umpire.
They do NOT list overlap of the receiving team on the Referee's list of
responsibilities. They only list overlap on the serving team. For the umpire
they only list overlap of the receiving team (which sometimes doesn't stop your
umpire from calling overlap on the serving team, which happenned to me this
weekend :) ).
The only leeway you have is that it states in the rules somewhere that the
Referee can overrule any other official. So I guess you could say you were
overruling the Umpire's non-call of an overlap :)
Later,
John
RMF
John Villalovos wrote:
[..]
> I do agree with the fact that it is "proper technique" to have the R2
> call it. But at certain levels of USAV volleyball your R2 does NOT
> have the ability to make the call. Examples could be you are
> officiating a 14U match and your R2 is a 13 year old who doesn't
> understand overlapping very well and may not be tracking the
> positioning of players very well.
>
> My main point in all of this is that the R1 MAY make the call. I
> agree that the R1 should NOT make the call and the R2 should be the
> one making the call. If you as the R1 make the call you are showing a
> lack of confidence in the ability of your R2 to detect overlap.
> Sometimes this is okay and sometimes it is not. It depends on the
> situation. The higher the level of the match and the higher level of
> the down official you are working with the less likely you should make
> the call.
[..]
seems all good and fair to me, but the question that springs into my
mind is: why would you "spare" the advanced R2 the "shame" of
overcalling while you do the same to the rookie (i.e.: who needs more
reassurance, who should better be able to deal with the overcall...)?
.bob
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
\ /
X Against HTML
/ \ in e-mail & news
Badgerstripe
> situation. The call concerns an out of rotation call on the receiving
> team.
>
> The 1st referee checks the line up of the receiving to insure they are
> ready to begin the rally. He observes that the receiving team is out
> of rotation. He signals for serves. A legal serve is executed. The
> 2nd referee does not whistle the play dead and charge the receiving
> team with out of rotation.
>
> The question is should the 1st referee enforce the out of rotation
> call on the receiving team?
This situation is not uncommon in Scotland, where 2nd officials are
sometimes quite inexperienced at the lower end of the National League. When
I'm first ref, how I work it is this; I'll look at the player coming to
serve and verify in my own mind that it's the correct server. I'll then
look quickly at the receiving team and verify that they're in the correct
rotation. If necessary I'll delay the signal to serve for a second or two
if someone has realised they're out of rotation and is moving to get into
the correct position. I'll then look along the net-cord and blow for
service, looking more at the receiving team than the serving team (This is a
habit that I got into when the ball hitting the net-cord was a fault, and
I've yet to unlearn it.)
Quite often if the receiving team is arranged in a stack formation to my
side of the court, I'm in a better position than the second official to
judge whether they're in rotation or not. I should add that we're now being
advised that, in the interests of spectator interest and to keep the game
flowing, to IGNORE minute rotational errors. If a player is two inches out
of rotation then they're probably not aware of it, and they're certainly not
seeking to gain an advantage by it, so it's as well to let it go. If a
player is lined up left-back when they should be right-back then that's the
sort of rotational fault that gets called.
As for the instance of foot-faults by the server, I leave these exclusively
to the line-judge to call. As the served ball heads towards the net, I'll
very quickly glance back at the line-judge on the serving side to check that
the player wasn't in court when they served the ball. However if I do
notice that the player was in court (through the corner of my eye) and the
line-judge doesn't call it, then I certainly will. At the end of the day
the 2nd ref and line-judges are there to assist the 1st ref to run the game;
it's the poor old 1st ref who ultimately has to take the stick for any bad
calls
Badger
Todd Haverkos
Update after renewed discourse with USAV's rules interpreter. ...
I was wise to hedge my bets by using the word "implies." :-)
Steve Thorpe has been good enough to clarify--and USAV is essentially
in agreement with this procedure. Per 26.2.1.1, 26.2.1.2, and
26.2.1.3, the R1 _can_ call this if all else fails and the R2 just
can't be goaded into cluefulness. Note that there is a very strong
bias against the R1 making this call, so use with caution!
> USAV indoor rule 26.3.2.2 reads "Only the first referee is
> authorized to...decide upon faults of ther server and of the
> positions of the serving team." The R2 responsibilities read
> slightly differently in 27.3.3.1: "During the match, the second
> referee decides, whistles and signals...position faults of the
> receiving team."
>
> In the Comparison of Techniques and Mechanics of NAGWS and USAV
> 2001-2002 document developed jointly by Marcia Alterman and Tom Blue
> and given to all PAVO officials, there is a situation described as
> "First Referee Whistling Positional Faults On Receiving Team." For
> NAGWS, it states "Confer with the R2; discretly signal to R2." For
> USAV, it states, "R1 is authorized to check position faults for
> serving team only; R2 is authorized to check position faults for
> receiving team only."
I think this note in the comparison of techniques and mechanics may be
in need of revision--USAV and NAGWS are apparently in step with each
other on this point. Neither body wants the R1 to call it, but by the
same token, it doesn't look like either body would uphold a protest if
the R1 did have to call it (assuming that one could even be accepted).
FYI, Steve is consulting other resources on the "Can you protest based
on referee technique?" issue (e.g. an R1 making this call, and R2
whistling ball down, etc.). At issue is the 1993 USAV rulebook
wording that indicated that protests can only be made on the Part I
"The Game" section of the rulebook. This paragraph has been absent
from the USAV book since it was converted to the FIVB style in 1994.
NAGWS still has such wording in their rules.
Finally, a note for protest newbies on some terminology. The
progression for protests is:
1) Captain asks for clarification of a ruling. Captain
disagrees and says "I protest"
2) The R1 decides whether the matter may be "accepted" as a
protest (i.e. don't accept protests of judgement calls,
etc). Accepting a protest just means, "Okay, we disagree
on something tangible. Let's get it right."
3) R1 gets down from the stand, assembles the protest
committee in large tournament play, or consults the
rulebook to see if the matter can be settled therein. USAV
nationals, for instance, have such a committee as do many
USAV regional tournaments.
If not, scorekeeper records all facts of the game on the
back of the scoresheet in case match has to be played from
the point of protest.
In the absense of a protest committee, play resumes
assuming the official's call was correct.
4) Someone rules on the protest (protest committee in
tournaments, rules interpreter) and decides whether to
"uphold" the protest, or "not uphold" (i.e to agree with
the official's decision). If this is not tourney play (no
protest committee), and the protest is upheld, and the
protesting team ended up losing the match in its original
continuation, the match is replayed from the point of the
protest.
What Steve is investigating is whether a protest based on referee
technique may even be accepted (step #2).
Tom Fakehany
Bob
serving postition. 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 3-6, 4-5, and 5-6. If the R2 still doesnt
"see" it I tell him to whistle and then I explain it to the captain.
Bob Anglin