Stronger - less vert?
Anthony Chan
Hi,
Well, I've been weight training for about
four-and-a-half months now. The strength in my legs
has vastly improved; where once I only squatted
225 pounds for 10 reps, I can now squat 300 pounds
for 10 reps. Yet, there is little or no improvement
in my vertical leap, at least as far as I can acertain.
About one-and-a-half years ago, I lifted weights for
the same period of time, and increased my vertical
leap during that time, from 34 to 37 inches. And
at that time, only squated 245 for 10 reps. While
my vertical now is maybe 33-34 inches. So, I'm
much stronger now, but have not gained anything on
my vertical. Although I weigh about 10 pounds more
now than I did then, I can squat 55 pounds more;
which makes no sense. And the weight I gained has
been all muscle. Could anyone explain this? Thanks.
BTW: I'm testing my vertical in the early morning,
around 9:00 or so. Do you jump higher, later in the
day?
-Anthony
Karen Rytwinsky
Anthony,
I know that muscle is denser than fat, which would account for the
increase in weight, with no increase in fat, but muscle mass. Also, here
is an account that I pulled off of this group a while back. I thought that
it would be good to post it again, since it addresses your situation. Hope
it helps
--
-karen
I know of only two tried and true means to improve your vertical jump -
weight training and jump training.
You should do your jump training at the conclusion of your match, practice,
playing, whatever so that you can train to failure without interfering with
you performance. When I did my training, it consisted of several sets of
different types of jumps all used in volleyball. Thus, you can work on
your footwork as well as your vertical. I start with block jumps with four
different sets of at least 8 repetitions (use an equal number for all
four). The four sets were: two-step to the right, tw-s to the left,
three-step to the right, th-s to the left. This can be done with or without
a net (just imagine one if necessary). Concentrate on perfect technique and
always use your max jump. Do not rush through the sets - you are not trying
to get cardiovascular conditioning. You want your legs to wear out first,
not your cardiopulmonary system.
Next, do sets of at least 12 of three different kinds of approach jumps -
left side, right side, and middle (i.e. jump straight up and do not glide).
One option is to make reps 6-9 be backrow approaches - thus working on
broad jumping as well. Again, always use perfect form and your max jump.
The final set is the toughest. It consists of jumping straight up off of
two feet using your max jump repetitively. You do this until failure. I
don't mean failure as in until you die, but as in until you cannot really
jump that well anymore. I used to do this by standing under a basketball
rim and jumping up to touch it with both hands. Failure consisted of not
getting both hands on it three times in a row. That ruled out accidental
"misses" and whatnot. I could usually get to about 50 or so. You can do
this at the net just as easily as with a rim.
General info: I generally stuck with repetitions of 8 and 12 for the
different sets, and as my legs got into better shape I would switch over to
doing more sets, ie 2 times through the blocking sets, then 2 times through
the approach sets, followed by ONLY ONE set of the death march.
You should be doing this AT MOST three times a week, otherwise you will
OVERTRAIN and do yourself more harm than good. Make sure that you get at
least one, preferably two days rest (no jump training - playing is OK)
between sessions. If you have access to sand, the sand will, training in
the sand will only help you marginally with your jump - the jumping is no
different than indoors, but moving through the sand on blocks and
approaches may help overall leg strength - but the sand will be much kinder
on your joints than the pine wood.
You can optionally supplement the preceding jump training regimen by
replacing one day of jump training with one day of weight training. Since
it sounds as though you have done some weight training before I will give
you the following program, but exercise extreme caution - it is for POWER
training, and you should not do power training until you have at least
6months-1year of consistent weight training on that bodypart.
When I train legs for jumping, I do the following exercises in this order -
Squats, leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses, calf raises. All of the
exercises should consist of a pyramid of sets which consists of: warm-up,
10-12 reps, 7-9 reps, 4-6 reps, warm-down of 10-12 reps. Each set, except
the warm-up should consist of as much weight as you can handle and maintain
proper form while performing the specified number of repetitions. The
warm-up should be a weight such that you can perform 16 reps comfortably
while maintaining perfect form. All of the sets should be conducted to
failure - when you can accomplish more reps than the intervals specified,
increase the weight. On the warm-down perfect form should be the primary
goal.
Since the exercises consist of training until failure, an adequate spotter
is essential. The proper technique on all of the exercises is essential.
For squats, that consists of keeping the back very straight (not arhced
either way) and the head up while bending the legs to the point where
flexion is just beyond 90 degrees with the feet slightly broader than
shoulder width. Bending the legs beyond that increases the likelihood of
immediate as well as long-term injury, as well as not being useful to
jumping since you do not bend your knees beyond 90 degrees when jumping.
Normal repetitions consist of slowly lowering to the proper flexion and
then extending back up, NEVER locking the knees. The pace of the exercises
should be slow and steady. When training for POWER (SEE CAUTION ABOVE), the
speed of the negative phase is unimportant (lowering of the weight), but
the positive phase should be EXPLOSIVE. You should come up with as much
speed as possible - as though you were jumping - WHILE MAINTAINING PERFECT
FORM. You may find that you need to slow the movement down near full
extension in order to avoid leaving the ground.
For all of the other exercises, the speed guidelines are the same, but
proper form differs. In leg extension, the flexion used should be that
limited by the machine, but never too far beyond 90 degrees, and it is
vital to avoid LOCKING the knee at full extension. Briefly pause at full
extension before lowering. Always keep both feet with toes pointed and keep
them approximately shoulder width apart. In leg curls, exercise the same
caution against leg locking, and flex to the maximal position and hold
briefly, then lower. Again, keep toes pointed and feet at shoulder width.
In leg press, again only barely exceed 90 degrees of flexion and do not
lock the knees. Feet should be slightly wider than shoulder width. Do NOT
hold the weight at maximum flexion. In calf raises, have the feet shouder
width apart and start with the heel below the toes. Extend until the heel
is at the maximal position above the toes and pause briefly before lowering
until the heel is below the toes again.
General info: ALWAYS use a spotter. ALWAYS use PROPER technique. DO NOT
POWER TRAIN until you have been weight training for at least 6 mos to a
year on that body part. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, warm up with at least five
minutes of light CV work (running, biking, rowing, stairmaster, etc) before
starting your workout. Make sure to STRETCH the appropriate muscle group
before each exercise.
As always, nutrition and supplementation can enhance any benefits you might
gain form the above, but that's another story.
The combination of the above, repeated on a regular basis took me from a
28" vertical when I graduated from high school to a 40"+ vertical and a
place on the National Team. I highly recommend them, but be careful not to
OVERTRAIN - the cardinal sin of any kind of training - one of which I have
been guilty on more than one occasion. If you chose, do only the former for
a long time. It was enough to get me from 28" to 37" in 6 months. The
latter was what pushed me over the top, but I only did that once I got to
the higher levels and needed something more. Start slowly and build.
-marin gjaja
jesse neri
day), but my weight is up 25 # and my strength up alot from weight
training. I find my endurance much better, and the increased upper body
strength to be a great help when hitting and blocking. The problem
comes in that jumping is a explosive or speed action and involves the
muscles differently than strength exercises like squats. How high you
jump is a direct function of how fast you leave the ground and how fast
your leg and calve muscles can get you going. There have been multiple
recommendations by others on the net for plyometrics as the exercise
technique to improve jumping.
--
Jess Neri ne...@hobbes.nrl.navy.mil (202) 404-7567 # # ## #
Pulsed Power Physics Branch, Plasma Physics Division ## # # # #
Naval Research Laboratory, Washington DC 20375 # ## ## #
######### Nuts Running Loose ################# # # # # ###
Spankin' Ed Davis
> Well, I've been weight training for about
> four-and-a-half months now. The strength in my legs
> has vastly improved; where once I only squatted
> 225 pounds for 10 reps, I can now squat 300 pounds
> for 10 reps. Yet, there is little or no improvement
> in my vertical leap, at least as far as I can acertain.
A Mack Truck has a hell of a lot more power than my Honda
Civic, but I can take him at any stop light.
I had similar happen to me a while back before I realized
that the answer is that while your legs are more powerful,
raw power does not always translate directly to explosive
power. Weight training is great for developing and maintaining
muscle tissue. To develop more muscles through weight
training, the muscle in question is usually worked to failure
during exercise, the muscle then generates more tissue in order
to do the work load required. During the periods of muscle
tissue development it is normal that while overall power is
increased, explosive power is diminished. This is due I believe
to the muscle fatigue of heavy weight training.
Once you've developed the level of leg muscle that you are
comfortable with, you maintain with sets of multiple reps
without increasing your weights.
Now most importantly, to increase your vertical, you have to
train the muscles for jumping. The best way to train for jumping
is to jump, plain and simple. Playing ball in the sand worked best
for me.
Weight training should be viewed as a long-term investment. Once
you've attained the level of muscle development desired and begin
the maintenace program of weight training, then you should begin
to reap the fruits of your labor on the volleyball court. You will
notice that your stamina will be greatly improved. You will be
able to sustain your jump throughout a tournament and into the
play-offs while others will fade considerably. Once you become
comfortable with the maintenance program of squats you are doing,
then you should begin to notice the springs coming back. Your
vertical could improve slightly, but that is not a given.
What I am telling you is directly from my experience with weights.
I started an overall weight program which included squats. I worked
myself up to three sets of 12 300lbs squats. During the volleyball
season, my legs always felt tired ( I had lost my springs). I became
a stud doing squats, but a dud getting off the floor. I cut the weight
in half for maintenance and my springs returned pretty quickly.
I have noticed that a lot of players' vertical leaps are more limited
by their technique rather than their leg strength.
So, in a nutshell (which is somewhat of an appropriate receptacle),
push the weights and you can be a stud come play-off time, but
do the weights, work on technique, and do a lot of jump training,
and you can become a stud all day long.
Spankin' Ed
"Volleyball Is My Life"
Thomas Aquinas
1263
The spirit of TerpZilla lives.
email: ab...@stdvax.gsfc.nasa.gov
<Goddard Space Flight Center>
Eric A. Kilpatrick
Your increase in weight has more effect than you would think.
You see, muscle tissue is made up of two kinds of fibers, slow
twitch and fast twitch. Your increase of strength is (most
likely) in slow twitch fibers which are used for slow, sustained
power, like squtting 300 pounds. Fast twitch are used for short,
explosive power, like jumping. So, you probably gained 10 pounds
of slow twitch muscle mass, while your fast twitch fibers were
virtually unaffected. Now your fast twitch muscles have to work
harder to push your body into the air. An example of this is in
the fact that professional body builders are not known to be the
best leapers.
However, weight training can increase your vertical when done with
that as the specific goal. My guess is that when you were squatting
245 lbs. it was less taxing on your body and you were doing the movements
quicker. (Don't try to do them too fast, because that is an easy way to
damage your knees.) I would suggest doing more jump training and less
"power" training (heavy weights, low reps).
I don't know about time of day. It may not matter other than that later
in the day, I'm more run down from either a long day at work or from
playing volleyball all day.
Mark D Myran
> four-and-a-half months now. The strength in my legs
> has vastly improved; where once I only squatted
> 225 pounds for 10 reps, I can now squat 300 pounds
> for 10 reps. Yet, there is little or no improvement
> in my vertical leap, at least as far as I can acertain.
The latest issue of Volleyball magazine has an excellent section on
vertical leap. One of the major points is that leg strength is not as
important as how quickly your muscles can contract. There is a section
on plyometrics - a group of exercises which help train your muscles to
contract very quickly, leading to a higher vertical.
-Mark Myran
TJ Vasquez
Team Cup (Nov 10), they showed Allen Allen's legs.
They were HUGE!
I could only imagine the weight and jump training he went through.
Incidentally, the original poster did not mention how tall he was
and what level of play he was involved in. My point is, most of
us would kill for a 34-37" vertical.
--
*****************************************************************************
* _/_ tvas...@oboe.calpoly.edu *
* / o , ____. _ _, . . _ __. vas...@eagle.dfrf.nasa.gov *
* (___/_ \/ (_(_/_)_(_)_(_/_(<_/ |_ tvas...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu *
* / /> (| tj_vasq...@qmgate.dfrf.nasa.gov *
* -' |/ NASA Ames Dryden / Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo *
* Note: My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of NASA's nor Cal Poly's.*
*****************************************************************************
Baron K. Fujimoto
: This is not directly related to the original subject, but in the last
: Team Cup (Nov 10), they showed Allen Allen's legs.
: They were HUGE!
Heh... I can remember him jogging past me on the sidewalk one day during
one of their practices when he was still at UH. They were indeed huge,
and muscles would bulge out everywhere whenever he planted his foot. I
was, of course, suitably awed. :-)
-baron
--
INTERNET: ba...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu - Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn!
ICBM: 21 19 N 157 52 W - Parry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust!
Keywords: BLAZEMONGER Volleyball RZ350 - -- Daffy Duck
ad...@pluto.logica.co.uk
Generally when people weight train they work with weights close to their
maximum - this will be developing strength. Jumping is very much a power
activity (ie fast contractions), which can be developed by using weights
but working with weights at 60-70% of your maximum, knocking out fast
repetitions. (Similarly arm-swing for a spike is a power activity).
Other training includes jumping... worth baring in mind as this can be
used to train technique as well as power. Plyometrics useful.
But beware that if you are training heavily to improve your jump you may
be putting a lot of wear into your body. Latest ideas suggest jump
training in swimming pools may reduce the wear.
Finally, jumping ability is in a large part genetically determined, so
even after all your training, don't expect to be leaping like Michael Jordan -
if you put 4" on your jump you've done really well.
Marin Gjaja
I think that Anthony's previous request was what prompted me to make my
original post of my jump training regimen (just was reposted on this thread).
Many of the respondents have had good points, particularly the person who noted that while doing hard leg training you will notice that your jump may not increase, but when you cut back your workouts to a maintenance phase you may notice gains.
A point about weight training in general: strength is great in general and can help prevent injury and increase stamina. However, there are no guarantees that by killing yourself in the gym that you will increase your vertical. As I stated in my post, I spent much of my training just doing jumping - this increases yuor jump because you are training the exact movement you will perform, and it will also have fringe benefits such as improving your blocking footwork, approach footwork and quickness in both mov
ements.
Now, as far as training, in my post I discussed the difference between regular strength training and POWER training. Power, by definition, is work divided by time. Thus, two equally strong people, that is, two people who squat the same amount, can have vastly different vertical jumps since one might be tremendously more powerful (total work is equal, but one can do it in a much briefer time interval). The poster who said that power training may not be beneficial was confusing standard weight training and p
ower training. In order to increase your vertical, you need to increase explosiveness, and that is done with rapid weight training movements with heavy weights. CAUTION: I spoke in my earlier post about the dangers inherent to power training, and you should have an extensive period of general strength training for both the strength and proper technique necessary to safely complete any power training.
The most impressive jumpers I have ever seen are Olympic-style weight lifters. These guys are not built like Air Jordan by any stretch, but their sport requires incredible explosiveness. There's nothing quite like seeing a burly guy with a power gut jump onto a platform that's almost as high as his armpits from a standing start.
One final note for Anthony - at 34-35" +, you are doing very well. You are robably reaching the point of diminishing returns. I did as well. Use the jump training as a tool to enable further progress in your game on the court. That, after all is what most players want to see.
-marin gjaja
Larry Parrish
>TJ Vasquez (vas...@eagle.dfrf.nasa.gov) wrote:
>: This is not directly related to the original subject, but in the last
>: Team Cup (Nov 10), they showed Allen Allen's legs.
>: They were HUGE!
>Heh... I can remember him jogging past me on the sidewalk one day during
>one of their practices when he was still at UH. They were indeed huge,
>and muscles would bulge out everywhere whenever he planted his foot. I
>was, of course, suitably awed. :-)
>
I saw Allen Allen last year win the beach doubles tournament at
Seaside, Oregon. The muscles in his calves were so well defined that
one of my friends commented that Allen Allen has muscles that my friend
didn't even know existed. :)
By the way, Jeff Stork was the big name at this year's Seaside
tournament. Although he didn't win the doubles tournament, I was amazed
at how big and tall a SETTER could be. :)
Larry Parrish
par...@u.washington.edu
Brian S Fletcher
>TJ Vasquez (vas...@eagle.dfrf.nasa.gov) wrote:
>: This is not directly related to the original subject, but in the last
>: Team Cup (Nov 10), they showed Allen Allen's legs.
>: They were HUGE!
>Heh... I can remember him jogging past me on the sidewalk one day during
>one of their practices when he was still at UH. They were indeed huge,
>and muscles would bulge out everywhere whenever he planted his foot. I
>was, of course, suitably awed. :-)
On this note, does anyone know how heavy and how tall Allen Allen and/or
Uvaldo Acosta is?? We were having an argument the other day at volleyball
about ratio of height/lean body weight to vertical jump and volleyball
performance.
Just wondering.....
Fletch
ANU#6
Patrick Yuen
Fletcher) wrote:
> On this note, does anyone know how heavy and how tall Allen Allen and/or
> Uvaldo Acosta is??
I don't know about weight, but I recall that UV is listed at 6'0" and the
A-bomb at 6'3". Of course, listings tend to be skewed one way or the
other, so YMMV.
Robin Amano
>
>On this note, does anyone know how heavy and how tall Allen Allen and/or
>Uvaldo Acosta is?? We were having an argument the other day at volleyball
>about ratio of height/lean body weight to vertical jump and volleyball
>performance.
>
>Just wondering.....
>
>Fletch
>ANU#6
I think he's about 6'1" max. BTW, his brother doesn't have legs
as big as his and he can fly too. They are cut, though.
Oh, sorry, I was talking about Allen Allen, and his brother Masui.
--
--------------
rob
Jeff Scott
>I think he's about 6'1" max. BTW, his brother doesn't have legs
>as big as his and he can fly too. They are cut, though.
>Oh, sorry, I was talking about Allen Allen, and his brother Masui.
I would say Allen is more like 6' 2-3". I am going by when I was at the Bud
4-man tournament this summer in Minneapolis. There was a really bad thunderstorm
the first morning of the tournament, and a friend and I were ducking under the
Asics tent for cover :) While we were there several of the players took shelter
for a couple of minutes also. One of them was Allen, and I would guess his
height to be about 3-4" taller than me (I am about 5'11"). He might seem shorter
because of his large build.
Jeff Scott (Jeff_...@rchland.vnet.ibm.com)
Dept. 49D
IBM Rochester, Minnesota
(507)253-1176
Marin Gjaja
Having played with both guys:
UV is 5'11" and weighed 195 or so when I played with him.
Allen is just over 6' (you might get away with calling him 6'1", but I think he's closer to 6') and weighed 220-225 when I played with him.
marin gjaja
na...@sketchgrowl.com
Basic answer: Train your legs for explosive jumping. Note that explosive jumping, like what you need for dunking a basketball, is not the same as the jumping you’d do for skipping rope, for example.
When it comes to the actual training, there are myriad programs, systems and recommendations out there, so I’ll make my advice general and simple for you.
Practice jumping explosively. Play b-ball and jump for the rim. Box jumps. Hurdles.
Train your legs for explosion in the weight room, with lifts (squat, deadlift, calf raises, etc) that utilize heavy weight that is heavy enough to challenge you but not so heavy that you can’t move it explosively.
Train your upper body for explosion. Dunking is not just in the legs.
You need your arms and core activated as well for it. If you were to jump really high right now without a ball, notice how you use your arms to propel you upward. You can simulate this in training with medicine ball tosses straight up in the air (probably donthis outside, and watch out for he falling ball!).
Train for speed. In b-ball, you’ll often be running before your dunk attempt; the more speed you can build up, the harder and higher you can explode (thibknof an airplane on a runway, for example). Jumping rope helps train for speed and quickness. You can do sprints with a speed parachute strapped to your waist (one of my favorites for speed training). Same for a weighted vest. Sprint up inclines like hills, bridges and treadmills in high inclines and stair master machines.
Make your body aerodynamic. In other words, be in shape. Don’t be on the court with a beer gut, wondering why you can’t jump high. Reduce body fat and build lean muscle. Simplest ways: Eat right (use your best judgement at the dinner table), reduce/eliminate processed food intake (google these if you need help) as much as possible, drink lots of water (not juice and not sports drinks — just water). Make your body look like what you’d call an “explosive athlete”.
Take care of your body otherwise. No alcohol or illicit drugs. Get ample rest (8+ hours sleep daily).
All that should be a good start. For specific programs, see:
- Vert Shock by Adam Folker: vertshockbb.nabillionaire.com
- The Jump Manual by Jacob Hiller: jumpmanualbb.nabillionaire.com