3 mile Muni vs 30 mile Cokering for exercise
MuniAddict
I'm just wondering about the the exercise factor when it comes to, say a
30 mile coker ride along a mostly flat, smooth bike path that takes
about 3 - 3 1/2 hours to complete at a fairly consistent but
comfortable speed, vs a 3 mile, extremely technical, all out MUni ride
that takes only about 35 minutes to complete.
So for 35 minutes, I've got my heart rate near maximum, and I'm doing
some very steep ups & downs, working very hard and feeling like I'm
getting a substantial workout. Then, on another day, I'm taking it
pretty easy on the coker, doing 30 miles on flat, smooth ground and
hardly even working up a sweat.
So, If I were to do this type of MUni or Coker for 5 days per week,
which ride would be more physically benificial overall? Of course, the
ideal, imo, would be to alternate *both* types of riding, maybe Muni 3
days and coker 2, but I'm just curious so I thought I'd ask
opinions.:cool:
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zfreak220
muni would definitely be the better workout from your options. however
if you stepped up the speed and effort put into your coker ride, then
you could make it pretty even. i would say alternate though, hard muni
on monday, wednesday, and friday, easier cokering on tuesday and
thursday.
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banjo_gun_snake_wheels
theoretically, the coker ride would be better to build up your
cardiovascular health. On the other hand, the 30 minutes of muni is
more likely to build muscular strength. It all depends on what you're
trying to accomplish.
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MuniAddict
banjo_gun_snake_wheels wrote:
> theoretically, the coker ride would be better to build up your
> cardiovascular health. On the other hand, the 30 minutes of muni is
> more likely to build muscular strength. It all depends on what you're
> trying to accomplish.
Mostly "overall" benefits. On the coker rides we've been maitaining an
average speed of about 10 mph, with (infrequent) max's up around 15
mph. Overall, the coker ride is pretty non-strenuous.
The MUni is no doubt great cardio, as I mentioned my heart rate gets up
to near maximum at times, and averages well above 150. And yes, I'm
sure it builds muscle strength, as well as being a great "core"
builder. I was mainly wondering if the two very different workouts
would be similar in physical benifit as one is relatively short, but
very strenuous, while the other is very long but much less strenuous.
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tomblackwood
MuniAddict wrote:
> Overall, the coker ride is pretty non-strenuous.
I think you've answered your own question here.
Just my view, but repetition does little for fitness if it's not
accompanied by cardio workout. If your 30 mile coker ride includes
powering up a few hills, intervals style, so you get your heart rate
into a higher zone, then you might have a better comparison. But if
you're "Sunday Driving" on your Coker, fuggetaboutit.
I proved this to myself after some great training advice from Nathan H:
"train the hills, and the distance will take care of itself." The
first year I did the MS 150, I trained a boatload of miles, mostly on
flat trails. Got to the event, and the hills killed me. The next
year, I spent most of my training time working hills, not paying as
much attention to distance. Got to the event, and not only rode
further than ever before, but pounded all the hills that gave me a hard
time the year prior.
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MuniAddict
tomblackwood wrote:
> I think you've answered your own question here.
>
> Just my view, but repetition does little for fitness if it's not
> accompanied by cardio workout. If your 30 mile coker ride includes
> powering up a few hills, intervals style, so you get your heart rate
> into a higher zone, then you might have a better comparison. But if
> you're "Sunday Driving" on your Coker, fuggetaboutit.
>
> I proved this to myself after some great training advice from Nathan H:
> "train the hills, and the distance will take care of itself." The
> first year I did the MS 150, I trained a boatload of miles, mostly on
> flat trails. Got to the event, and the hills killed me. The next
> year, I spent most of my training time working hills, not paying as
> much attention to distance. Got to the event, and not only rode
> further than ever before, but pounded all the hills that gave me a hard
> time the year prior.
Yeah, 100% of my cokering will pretty much be ridden on the 50 miles (25
each way) of beautiful bike path that stretches from Malibu to
Torrance, CA!
It's not an endurance test really for anything but my crotch!:eek:
Still i can't help thinking that the _many_ _thousands_ of revolutions
covering 30 miles would *still* provide at least some physical benifit.
If not, then I guess I'm just "spinning my wheels!";)
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Unibugg
I think the muni would be a "better" workout if you had to pick just
one. 30 minutes out on the trails and you can be assured I've used a
lot more muscles than I would had I ridden on a smooth street. Just
think about what it does for your core and arms. Especially when you
probably freemount a lot more often on the trails than on the street.
And even when I am in the woods out of the sun I sweat a lot more and
breath a lot heavier.
I think pavement riding can be really beneficial to your cardio
depending on the level you take it. To make it a better workout though
the route should include hills like Tomblackwood mentioned. It should
also include plenty of turns (speaking from experience from riding
straight smooth rail trails here.. very few turns at all :( ), and I
would think every now and then dismounting and mounting again as part
of the training.
but I'm really just throwing out stuff from my own limited experience.
edited to add: of course we are talking about Terry.. someone
experienced at unicycling on the street and on the trails. A "ride in
the park" for some of us once upon a time WAS a tremendous workout. I
remember my heart beating in my throat numerous times as I just tried
to stay up!" So judging the workout also would have to include not
just what workout.. but whose..
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MuniAddict
Unibugg wrote:
> I think the muni would be a "better" workout if you had to pick just
> one. 30 minutes out on the trails and you can be assured I've used a
> lot more muscles than I would had I ridden on a smooth street. Just
> think about what it does for your core and arms. Especially when you
> probably freemount a lot more often on the trails than on the street.
> And even when I am in the woods out of the sun I sweat a lot more and
> breath a lot heavier.
>
> I think pavement riding can be really beneficial to your cardio
> depending on the level you take it. To make it a better workout though
> the route should include hills like Tomblackwood mentioned. It should
> also include plenty of turns (speaking from experience from riding
> straight smooth rail trails here.. very few turns at all :( ), and I
> would think every now and then dismounting and mounting again as part
> of the training.
>
> but I'm really just throwing out stuff from my own limited experience.
>
> edited to add: of course we are talking about Terry.. someone
> experienced at unicycling on the street and on the trails. A "ride in
> the park" for some of us once upon a time WAS a tremendous workout. I
> remember my heart beating in my throat numerous times as I just tried
> to stay up!" So judging the workout also would have to include not
> just what workout.. but whose..
Thanks for all the informative replies all! Well, since there the (long)
bike path is virtually level all the way, with no hard turns, I'll just
have to throw in a few more fast sprints in the 14-17 mph range! Of
course we do stop from time to time to take breaks, eat a snack and
"adjust" things. :D
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chuckaeronut
I know that I've essentially argued that muni is better for cardio and
road is better for muscle, but if you want something smooth and great
for cardio, road is the way to go. Just go longer and flatter! And muni
with mad hilliage could be just as good as road for sheer power output,
but the hills would have to be very long and more or less regular in
order to peg yourself at your aerobic threshold. I'd say, though, that
finding a good long hill and cokering up it at high cadence with good
force would be better than most muni, because the hills are shorter and
more breaks are taken because of falls, rocks, hops, etc, all of which
get your heart rate up, but let your legs rest. It all just depends on
what you want to do. For strength and ability to crank HARD, make sure
to keep your force*cadence up without stopping whether you're on road
or mountain (but road is more conducive to that kind of activity), and
for heart rate, just punish yourself on your muni. That'll allow you to
just suck sh*t up and keep powering with side cramps, a burning heart,
and a chest that's about to collapse. But the powering comes from
consistent, long-ish streams of power output, which is far less likely
to be interrupted on a road hill than on a trail.
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chuckaeronut
Hey Terry, I'm think I'm going to say that, though the coker ride would
be better for cardio, the muni ride would probably take the coker ride
in terms of brute short-term power output training.
They're really two completely different kinds of training. When I'm on
my bike I'll easily go 90-100 miles, but those 90-100 miles are in a
gear where I actually have some good resistance, allowing me to put out
180-220 watts for an extended period of time, which is where the
workout is. My heart rate may only be 120-140 the whole time, but it's
definitely raised, and I'm definitely hammering pretty hard to keep
speed up. I would say that a long bike ride like that is definitely
more similar to the coker ride than the muni ride, but on the coker,
you're stuck in a 36-inch "gear", probably limited to 50-70 watts of
average wheel-to-ground power output, plus maybe 20-30% extra effort in
order to keep your balance. On the bike you can hang in the 30s-40s for
climbing (high cadence, power-spin!), 80s for flat speed, and even
100-140 if you're feeling like a god for the moment, allowing you to
actually crank out more physical work, in the strictest sense,
force-distance units at your pedals. On the coker, without getting your
cadence through the roof, it's impossible to work yourself out! That
said, I think the coker ride is mostly useless unless you either put in
long, long distance or get a Schlumpf hub and frame and ride in 54"
mode to force yourself put out more power.
Riding a unicycle cruelly limits you in how hard you can work yourself
at reasonable cadences. Go geared (which, even then, may not be enough)
or climb hills. You'll need to find the right hill for optimum effect
because you can't shift. In a 36" gear, probably an 8-10-percent grade,
six or so if your strength isn't quite there yet; that's what you'd
want to do if you're going to train road. If you do do that... climb
hills all the time, etc, you'll have legs of steel and will be able to
power through just about anything at really high output for a long
time. Which brings me to the muni ride...
My problem with the muni ride is that it's only 35 minutes long.
Granted, it may be an (exceptionally!) intense 35 minutes, but as far
as a "workout" goes, it should be far longer, probably at least into
the 1-2 hour range. The muni ride will get your heart rate up into the
sky, but it's because you're doing obstacles, rough stuff, pounding all
over the place, standing up, etc. The muni ride will really help your
ability to maintain fast, intense stuff for minutes at a time (like, if
you're going to max yourself out for three to five minutes at a time),
but I wouldn't say it would increase your ability to simply put out RAW
POWER at any time you need it. It's great general conditioning, but
you're not going to become a mad sprinter or hill climber doing it.
Thing is... if you DO become a great sprinter or mad hill climber, what
the muni riding will do for you is to allow you to get your heart rate
down more quickly after powering, and it will allow you to keep up an
almost-sprint level of output for much longer.
You actual ability to crank out power at any given time, though, like,
how hard you can push when you're fresh, and what kind of foot-on-pedal
force from your leg relates to what kind of perceived effort in your
brain, will come from high-gear/uphill coker riding (or, if you really
want a quantifiably intense road-based workout, a road bike where you
can always choose a hard/optimal gear for good resistance at high
cadence). Unless you're climbing, on a coker, you can have all the
cadence you want, but you're not going to get the ability to acutally
push hard at that cadence, because a 36" wheel (and perhaps even a 54")
just isn't big enough. The 54 would definitely be big enough to get you
a good long-distance flat-ground aerobic workout though, if cadence
stays up.
I'm sorry I'm so long winded... I've thought about this a lot myself
(and actually experimented with it and spoken with a bunch of people
about it). But my basic point is... think about what kind of absolute
foot-to-pedal wattage feels like in terms of the way you perceive how
"hard you're pushing"... that's going to be amped up by doing hills on
your coker. Now think about, when you open your throttle and start
powering for a given amount of time, how long it takes you to feel the
burn in your lungs, heart, head, (and perhaps legs, but not always) and
at what level of fatigue you let yourself crack; the muni riding will
postpone that burn and allow you to put up with more of it before your
body's incessant, most likely painful, complaining forces your mind to
give it a rest.
If you can, climb hills in a tough (but aerobically friendly) gear on
your road bike (if you have one) and keep your RPM up with a heavy
gear. Do that a lot, and that'd be even better than the coker riding
for upping your ability to just put out power.
If you're going to rely on muni riding for core strength and cardio
(which is what I think it's best for, contrary to muscle, as many here
have said... unless there is substantial climbing) then I'd make sure
the muni ride lasts at least an hour, preferably an hour and a half or
two, and keep your heart rate above 130 the whole time with a break in
the middle... maybe 5 or 10 minutes at 130 and 5 or 10 minutes at
160-170 if the terrain will allow you to manage getting your heart rate
that high (flat terrain, unless you're really spinning FAST, won't and
shouldn't get your heart rate to 170). That's really good core and
cardio, and the punishment will allow you to take more in the future.
If you're wanting to increase how much power output you get out a given
perceived effort, ride your coker on as many hills as you can find, or
grab a road bike and shove it in a good gear (probably better than the
coker). The best RPMs to do that in are in the 80-100 range, so just
take as hard a gear as you can possibly do without letting your cadence
drop below 80 or so. Likewise, if you're on a coker, take as hard a
hill as you can without letting your cadence drop. And when I say hill,
I mean at least a half mile or so, though one and a half to three would
be better. Going for a flat coker ride with three or four 200-yard
hills isn't going to get you very far. :) If your cadence goes too low
during a climb, shift down! And if you're already in first gear and
your cadence drops uncontrollably, go home! And if you're on your coker
and your cadence hits rock bottom, suck it up or find a shallower
grade. :) (But always make sure you're on a steep enough hill to have
to crank the pedals to keep your cadence going... it shouldn't feel
like it's going by itself.) That will get your legs beefed up in a
hurry, so that you'll get a bunch of power for what doesn't feel like
much effort. Then the muni riding can make it so you can use that
power-power-power repeatedly without bonking halfway through your
ride.
Okay, I'm done now, I promise. :)
All that said, I'd alternate the ride. Longer muni ride, steeper or
geared up coker ride. They both have their place, they both will help
you out if you do them right, and, they're both probably buttloads of
fun!
--
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MuniAddict
Wow those were long, thougtfull posts! Thanks for your input. There's no
doubt in my mind that the 5 days in a row I put in *every* week riding
my local muni trail has put me in--and keeps me in--tip top shape. :)
I think maybe the best way for me to look at this is: Muni for a
kick-ass workout, and cokering for fun!:D Afterall, isn't that one of
the MAIN reasons we ride? And now that I've added 20-50 extra riding
miles to my regular weekly riding schedule, that has to be a good
thing! Oh, btw, the 90+ miles of biking you do is easier, partly
because you can "coast" and you have gears to help you climb. I pedal
_every_inch_ I go!:D
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rab2009
MuniAddict wrote:
> Oh, btw, the 90+ miles of biking you do is easier, partly because you
> can "coast" and you have gears to help you climb. I pedal _every_inch_
> I go!:D
that is not allways the case. on a road bike when you are going on a
flat road and turning a big gear most of the time you are pedaling. you
only stop pedaling to strech or take a break.
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joemarshall
MuniAddict wrote:
> Oh, btw, the 90+ miles of biking you do is easier, partly because you
> can "coast" and you have gears to help you climb. I pedal _every_inch_
> I go!:D
I've recently done about 600 miles of road biking, and I have to say,
road biking is *much* harder than coker riding if you do them for the
same time. So if you road bike for an hour working as hard as you can,
it'll be harder than if you coker. I did some of our local 45km races,
and doing that in just over an hour is harder even than muni-ing for an
hour, because when you're muni-ing, you at least have some points when
you're not powering and you can relax slightly.
Over the same distance though, biking is much easier, there is a weekly
bunch ride here that is 50-60 miles, and that isn't too hard to do in
about 2.5-3 hours in the evening, whereas 60 miles on a uni is usually
hard work.
Having said that though, the road bike speeds aren't far from the top
end of coker riding, the average for the fast guys in our races is
about 25mph. With short cranks and a stock coker, there are a few
people out there who could realistically do about 20mph for a fair
time. If you could get that consistent at that kind of speed, you'd
probably be getting a similar kind of workout to the road bikers.
Joe
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MuniAddict
joemarshall wrote:
> I've recently done about 600 miles of road biking, and I have to say,
> road biking is *much* harder than coker riding if you do them for the
> same time. So if you road bike for an hour working as hard as you can,
> it'll be harder than if you coker. I did some of our local 45km races,
> and doing that in just over an hour is harder even than muni-ing for an
> hour, because when you're muni-ing, you at least have some points when
> you're not powering and you can relax slightly.
>
> Over the same distance though, biking is much easier, there is a weekly
> bunch ride here that is 50-60 miles, and that isn't too hard to do in
> about 2.5-3 hours in the evening, whereas 60 miles on a uni is usually
> hard work.
>
> Having said that though, the road bike speeds aren't far from the top
> end of coker riding, the average for the fast guys in our races is
> about 25mph. With short cranks and a stock coker, there are a few
> people out there who could realistically do about 20mph for a fair
> time. If you could get that consistent at that kind of speed, you'd
> probably be getting a similar kind of workout to the road bikers.
>
> Joe
It would seem much more of an overall workout to ride a coker 600 miles,
than a road bike, but that's just how it seems to me. Having never done
either (and not planning on it) I may be wrong, 600 miles on either is
no cake walk! And that 25 mph you mentioned on a coker I would imagine
would be mostly on level or near level ground. I can't see anybody
maintaining that high speed for any length of time on a coker while
climbing! But, again.....:D
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hobo_chuck
im sure that the muni ride is much more fun...go with that;)
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joemarshall
MuniAddict wrote:
> It would seem much more of an overall workout to ride a coker 600 miles,
> than a road bike, but that's just how it seems to me. Having never done
> either (and not planning on it) I may be wrong, 600 miles on either is
> no cake walk! And that 25 mph you mentioned on a coker I would imagine
> would be mostly on level or near level ground. I can't see anybody
> maintaining that high speed for any length of time on a coker while
> climbing! But, again.....:D
It's okay, I didn't do the 600 miles all in one go, was over a few
weeks (4 weeks I think), not masses of riding, but enough to get used
to the bike.
For the same distance and time, coker will be harder. But in reality
the time people have is more often constant than the distance. So if
you have say 3 hours to ride, if you rode 60 miles on a road bike,
you'd be working harder than riding 30 miles on a coker in the same
time.
And yeah, the 25mph is on the flat. I don't think anyone could average
it on coker yet for any distance, but 20mph some people might be close
to. For people who can spin that fast, I don't think they're so limited
in terms of power output as most of us normal people, maybe they are
getting similar exercise to road bikers.
Joe
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U-Turn
Actually, in terms of a training program, both are arguably necessary.
The MUni will put your bod in need for recovery rides, which could
easily be the Coker ride. The MUni will tax your muscles and cardio
(so-called "overload training", and the low-load Cokering will flush
your system and prepare it for the next off-road workout (so-called
"active recovery").
So use the two types together for the best possible improvement.
Check out 'this Lance Armstrong book'
(http://www.livewireunicycles.com/References.htm) for more information.
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U-Turn
edit: remove double post
Hugh
Why argue about which is better? Just do both! Ride 2.5 hours on the
coker followed by .5 hours of hard muni every day. Problem solved. :D
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mill_mobile
OK i havent read this thread for a bit but...
This week i had been uni'ing HEAPS on my Nimbus 20 and hadnt used my
road bike for about a week - possibly a bit more.
My uni sessions were between 1hour and 1 and a half hours, in these
sessions i had been tryna hop, doing stairs, drops, SIF etc along with
some plain riding.
On thursday i took my roadie out for my usual 45km ride, this takes
about 1hr40, on returning i realised something... I had hardly even
built up a sweat and the hills i rode didnt seem as bad anymore, I
actually felt i coulda done it all again!
From this i feel that uniing is a much better work out, it may leave
you a bit sore, but at least you know you've used your muscles.
I used to turn to my roadie for fitness and fun, and the uni just for
fun... after this i now turn to the uni for fitness AND fun:)
The uni is a win all round:D
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