Mrs. T's Death - Swim Safety
Triat40
of John Mawdsley at the 1995 Mrs. T's Triathlon, I feel that it
is incumbent upon our sport to make the swim segment safer. Some
of the r.s.t. notes regarding Mrs. T's reflect that competitors
were hit, kicked, and had a rough time during the swim. Anyone
who participates in triathlons has experienced being hit during
the swim. Many complain of being swam over by other competitors.
If we did not know before, we now know, that it takes very little
for someone to drown. Before Tri-Fed worries about what type of
aero water bottle a competitor should be allowed to use, Tri-Fed
should be concerned about how to make the swim safer for
competitors. Triathlon is not football. There should be no body
contact during the swim. Safety should not be secondary to the
macho, almost boxing like swim conditions, we now have at many
triathlons. Triathletes should be given the opportunity to swim
without being mugged in the water. We should not have to worry
that our children may be fatherless or motherless because we
participate in a sport which we love, but which our governing
body refuses to make or enforce rules to help insure safety. Is
winning a plastic trophy or making the national team really more
important than John Mawdsley's or any person's life?
We have now lost two triathletes in two years at Mrs T's. We are
few in number and we can not afford to have that death rate in
our sport. Many will be frightened to even attempt a triathlon
unless something further is done to insure safety and educate
people about triathlon dangers. I hope you will join me in
writing Tri-Fed and ask that the swim rules be changed. Whether
Tri-Fed changes it's rules or not, as triathletes we should make
a commitment to each other not to touch, much less batter, our
fellow competitors, and to stop and assist anyone who looks as if
they may need help.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
BEvansitt
swimmers, was it some previously existing medical condition that
manifested during the race?
Bob Evans
Thudley2
for someone to drown. >>
How true. I've been "run over" more than I like, and with the near-aerobic
threshhold of the swim, you don't have to be submerged for more than a
couple of seconds before you are gasping for air. I'm with you, John. Just
take a look at the start of the Ironman Kona, if you want a good picture
of swim start chaos.
Brian Chou
However, much of the physical contact that occurs in a triathlon the size
this year's Mrs. T's may be due to the large number of swimmers and not
necessarily because of intense competition. I really don't think too many
swimmers go out into the water with a gleeful plan to swim over or crawl over
slower swimmers, or heaven forbid, kick and shove other swimmers to get
the best swimming lane. There are probably a few ruthless competitors.
I would guess, though, that the majority of athletes are there to have a
good time and are hopeful that his or her peers are also enjoying themselves
on the course.
What sort of rules would you suggest Tri-Fed adopt to make the swim course
safer? Additional rules and ensuring the enforcement of the rules may be
overly onerous.
During this year's Mrs. T's, a friend of mine who swam in the relay wave
says that he saw two swimmers begin to brawl in the water. The lifeguards
dragged both of them from the water and immediately DQed both of the swimmers.
This is about all that the lifeguards can do to the more uncivilized
participants. Perhaps these brawlers should have then been arrested
by the Chicago Police for disorderly conduct, assault, etc..
--
Brian Chou
ch...@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Tricia Richter
wrote:
I thought his death was due to a heart attack? Is this the case, or did he
indeed simply drown as a result of being swum over? I had heard that he
collapsed toward the end of the swim, when all the pummelling would pretty
much be over.
I think the sport of triathlon has some inherent risks, and no amount of
regulation is really going to be able to solve the rough swim start
problem. Only solution I can think of would be limiting wave sizes.
However, at an event the size of Mrs. T's, this might well cause the race
to be "starting" for hours!
It would be folly to clamour for MORE regulation if his death actually was
due to a heart attack rather than to the clobbering he received at the swim
start. I tend to shy away from a "more rules!" approach; before we start
hollering for Tri Fed to "do something" about it, let's be sure of the
cause of death. Heart attacks are *not* something that can be "regulated"
away.
Just my $.02.
Tri-Baby
--
_
o - o
' /|_ - </\_
` ' _ /\ _ - __/\
/\o_ (( ) ( )) - /
^^^^^^^^^^ - -
TGCarlson
pass a Red Cross lifesaving or a CPR style course. I have been haunted for
years that I would not be fully prepared for such an eventuality if I came
upon a downed fellow athlete.
Tim
Jim Franklin
know why he drowned? Is there any connection between a mass swim start
and deaths in triathlon? I feel for all of the family and friends, as I
too have lost athletic friends too early, but no regulation would have
saved them. The challenge of the course is a large part of the attraction
for me to the sport. I do agree with you that we should watch out for one
another on the course. I have seen little things that really make me like
triathletes. For example, coming out of T1, a guy accidently dropped both
of his water bottles. A nearby competitor saw what happened, and passed
him one of his own. Little things like that help keep the sport safe.
Respectfully,
Jim, Moper from Boulder
Kazez
tri...@aol.com (Triat40) writes:
> We have now lost two triathletes in two years at Mrs T's. We are
> few in number and we can not afford to have that death rate in
> our sport.
I think our sympathy should be directed to their families, not to our
dwindling numbers. Drowning is not really decimating the ranks in our
sport. We lose
far more participants by attrition than drowning. No regulation can
force anyone to remain. The official word is the man had a heart
attack. Whether or not someone is competing in an athletic event,
there will be a certain number of deaths in the population. This was
an overpopulated race that opened at 5 a.m. and continued until about
noon. Over a seven hour period, how many people die in Chicago? Only
one was a triathlete although there were more than 5000 of them.
Tri-fed can't be asked to remedy the general mortality rate.
Ruth Kazez
ex...@psu.edu
BDPLATT
That would be impractical, but even in the years that Trifed Officials
were responsible for safety ( we now only concern ourselves with fair
competition, due to the legal atmosphere of this country) we were not
trained or required to give CPR or First Aid.
Many things can go wrong during a race and passing rules won't make them
go away.
Tim
_______________________________________________________
Bruce Platt
bdp...@aol.com
Triat40
John Mawdsley's autopsy revealed that he did not die of a heart
attack but by drowning. There was no evidence that he was knocked
unconscious. He was wearing a wetsuit, was in good condition, and
was a past college swimmer. He did not collapse at the end of the
swim. Furthermore, in a triathlon the size of Mrs. T's is the
"pummelling" ever over?
The sport does have risk but it is incumbent upon us to reduce
those risk as much as possible. We can no longer look the other
way and ignore the dangers that face each of us in the swim. If
limiting the wave sizes and/or the triathlon stops the
"pummelling," then that is what we must do.
Despite the actual mechanism of John's death, this is not a case
in which it would "be folly to clamor for more regulation." I was
amazed to watch the other triathletes at Mrs. T's following the
directions of the organizers to dismount from their bikes and
leave their helmets on. Why do we disqualify someone for taking
their helmet off too soon when we permit the same person to
"pummel" someone in the swim? Most triathletes will follow the
rules if they exist. Please rethink your comment. We need to
holler at Tri-Fed before someone dies not after. No matter how
John died, let's fix this problem before you, I, or some other
fine triathlete gets hurt.
Finally, I agree that most heart attacks can not be regulated.
However, I think we should better advise the first time
triathlete of the actual dangers and stresses of a triathlon. It
may look simple on television, but as you and I know, it is very
stressful. If we expect to get new people into the sport, we are
going to have to better educate them regarding the training
necessary to participate.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Triat40
I have not heard the actual mechanism which caused John's death.
The reports indicate that there was no evidence that he was
knocked unconscious. He was wearing a wetsuit, was in good
condition, and was a past college swimmer. He did not collapse at
the end of the swim. There was no evidence of a previously
existing medical condition. This sounds to me like a case that
Tri-Fed and the race organizers should thoroughly and seriously
investigate. I doubt that they will however, unless we demand
that they do.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Triat40
I agree. A little life saving training would benefit us all.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Lynn Marshall
There are many things that can be done to make a triathlon safer.
Often, roads are not closed to traffic. I believe there are many more
serious accidents on the bike leg than on the swim. However, how many
people refuse to do a triathlon because of a safety issue? We all think
it will never happen to us!
While typing the above, I got a phone call from a friend saying that
another friend and world class Duathlete, Donna Lockett, was in a bike
accident while training at lunch time today. Sounds like she has a broken
pelvis and surgery is required.
I don't do triathlons any more after fracturing C-1 in a bike accident
in a triathlon in '93. I think swimming is *much* safer, but then I
can't imagine 5000 swimmers in one race.
Lynn (lyn...@bnr.ca)
Dan Empfield
Chou) wrote:
> What sort of rules would you suggest Tri-Fed adopt to make the swim course
> safer? Additional rules and ensuring the enforcement of the rules may be
> overly onerous.
Additional rules for the athletes are not the only rules that can help
with this problem. Better swim course design at certain races can also
help. IMHO the safest design is the Hawaii design which, while there is
mauling going on there, is still pretty safe considering you have a mass
start of 1500 athletes, most of whom are relatively similar in their
swimming talent level (I'm not talking about the virtues of mass starts
vs. wave, simply about course design). Hawaii gets away with this because
of its very wide start coupled with a very long stretch before the first
turn.
A wide start is better than a narrow, because athletes have more room to
spread out across the start. However, a wide start is worse than a narrow
one if you have a buoy 200yds offshore that will act as a funnel,
guaranteeing a traffic jam at the turn, and making it easy for a swimmer
to be lost under the tumult.
Does Tri Fed give recommendations to race directors for swim course
design? If not, this might be a good addition to the other fine help they
give. And, as well, integrating course design with # of athletes in a
wave, i.e., if you absolutely have to have a turn 200yd. after the start,
then a recommended maximum # of athletes in a wave would be "X".
QRman
Triat40
Maybe you need to go back out for a long run and think this one
over again. First, you are wrong about the "official word" of the
cause of death. John did not die of a heart attack as you claim.
Second, let's look at a population of 5000 healthy people and see
how many of them die in a seven hour period. Answer, none. Better
yet, I have got another idea based on your logic. Let's get rid
of the helmet requirement on the bike, allow pushing during the
run, allow cars on the bike course, and allow motor boats in the
swim area. We can then chalk up the deaths and injuries to the
mortality rate and claim that "Tri-Fed can't be asked to remedy
the general mortality rate." Safety is my concern and we should
do whatever we can to make triathlons safer no matter what
happened in Chicago. You will never know how sympathetic I am for
the John Mawdsley family. I wish you could have been there when I
held his two children as they screamed in pain and horror over
the sight of their father. Maybe then you would not make such
moronic remarks.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Augie Calabrese
>In article <4255k0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>tri...@aol.com (Triat40) writes:
>
>> We have now lost two triathletes in two years at Mrs T's. We are
>> few in number and we can not afford to have that death rate in
>> our sport.
>
>I think our sympathy should be directed to their families, not to our
>dwindling numbers. Drowning is not really decimating the ranks in our
>sport. We lose
>far more participants by attrition than drowning. No regulation can
>force anyone to remain.
>Tri-fed can't be asked to remedy the general mortality rate.
>
>Ruth Kazez
>ex...@psu.edu
I've gotta' go with Ruth on this. I accept (and to be frank, enjoy) the
contact that occurs from time to time in the water. I would limit my
swimming to pool events if I wanted my own lane. Regardless of the
official cause of death, any competitor out there should be aware of the
risks, and that includes the possibility that a lifeguard may not be able
to get to you.
BTW, I am a certified lifeguard, and would throw MY race down the toilet
to assist any other swimmer in distress. Maybe during the off season
more of us ought to consider spending the 20-30 hours it takes to get
trained/certified. But please, keep the lawyers out of it.
Augie Calabrese
Rochester Area Triathletes
Kazez
swimmers in each wave were asked to seed themselves within the age
group. In my wave, he announced, those swimmers expecting to go under
25 minutes were to go to the front, with progressively slower speeds
directed to follow, and finally all those over 40 minutes at the end.
Simple enough. I suppose it worked well.
Ruth Kazez
ex...@psu.edu
Kurian Davis
Jim Bailey x6518 wrote:
>Just to clear the air about the official cause of death,
>it was ruled drowning. The autopsy showed that there was
>nothing wrong with his heart. The newspapers said that he
>had been training for this and his family and friends said
>they had little doubt about his swimming abilities. As a=20
>result, I think it would be wise look into safety both in
>the amount of contact and in the number of people in each wave.
>
>Jim=20
Really? Quoting the San Francisco Chronicle "Sports Digest" column of Augu=
st 28th: (not that the Chron has any corner on truth or accuracy):=20
"A competitor in a Chicago triathlon died after being stricken with a h=
eart attack near the finish of the swimming portion of the event. John Maw=
dsley, 39, of suburban Barrington collapsed on the 12th Street Beach durin=
g the Mrs. T's Chicago Triathlon along the city's lakefront, officials sai=
d."
First, regardless the cause, I hope we'll all agree that extending our =
sympathy and sorrow to John's family might be our first priority.
Second, heart attack or not, sounds unlikely that interpersonal jostlin=
g would have had much part in this, unless this would still have been occu=
rring near the finish.
Third, I really feel for the original poster of this thread, and I can =
imagine that he must feel an imperative to do something in the wake of his=
friend's (?) death. I hope he'll take a long look at both the circumstanc=
es of this tragedy and the nature of this "memorial effort" in light of wh=
at Mr. Mawdsley's outlook might have dictated.=20
My most sincere condolences to the family, friends, and fellow competit=
ors of John Mawdsley.
Kurian Davis
kur...@relgyro.stanford.edu
=20
Jeff Mazer
>
> Ruth,
>
[otherwise reasonable remarks delted]
Maybe then you would not make such
> moronic remarks.
>
>
> Don Herron
> tri...@aol.com
I thought this was a pretty interesting thread, with a lot of people
giving their reasoned opinions on whether or not there should be more
rules regarding the swim, or whether there was anything else we or the
sport could do to make the swim safer. I am not sure why this person
decided to go into name calling, but I think it is pretty rude and
inappropriate.
Don, would you say the same thing in person? If not, why is it
appropriate here?
Jeff Mazer
Jim Bailey x6518
it was ruled drowning. The autopsy showed that there was
nothing wrong with his heart. The newspapers said that he
had been training for this and his family and friends said
they had little doubt about his swimming abilities. As a
the amount of contact and in the number of people in each wave.
Jim
In article <426r5f$14...@hearst.cac.psu.edu>, ex...@psu.edu (Kazez) writes:
> In article <4255k0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
> tri...@aol.com (Triat40) writes:
>
>> We have now lost two triathletes in two years at Mrs T's. We are
>> few in number and we can not afford to have that death rate in
>> our sport.
>
> I think our sympathy should be directed to their families, not to our
> dwindling numbers. Drowning is not really decimating the ranks in our
> sport. We lose
> far more participants by attrition than drowning. No regulation can
> force anyone to remain. The official word is the man had a heart
> attack. Whether or not someone is competing in an athletic event,
> there will be a certain number of deaths in the population. This was
> an overpopulated race that opened at 5 a.m. and continued until about
> noon. Over a seven hour period, how many people die in Chicago? Only
> one was a triathlete although there were more than 5000 of them.
-Jensen,T.R.
>The official word is the man had a heart
>attack. Whether or not someone is competing in an athletic event,
>there will be a certain number of deaths in the population. This was
>an overpopulated race that opened at 5 a.m. and continued until about
>noon. Over a seven hour period, how many people die in Chicago?
The official word after an autopsy is the man died due to drowning. His
lungs were filled with water and there was no evidence of a heart attack.
(This was buried in the middle of the Chicago Tribune on Tuesday.)
I also heard he was ex-collegiate swimmer.
Todd Jensen o
AT&T Bell Labs ___^o_ __o <|\
Naperville, IL _ \<_ _\
tje...@ihgp.att.com (_)/(_) /
Triat40
If in fact triathletes are in a race to have a good time as you
state, then not only should we not go out and plan to touch other
or slower swimmers, we should intentionally make every effort
stay out of their way. A couple of seconds to avoid another
swimmer should not effect the mind set of a person who wants to
have a good time.
I continue to be disappointed by stories such as yours in which
people are actually fighting during the swim. I am pleased these
people were DQed but Tri Fed and other races should not allow
these people to participate for at least 2 years in any race.
Maybe by that time they will grow up.
I suggest that Tri Fed study this issue much like they studied
the wetsuit issue. In my opinion, the rule should state that
competitors should not be allowed to have any body contact and if
they do, they are disqualified from the race. New, novice, or
slower triathletes, especially in a race the size of Mrs. T's,
should be placed in a separate wave at the end of the race. Under
any circumstances, the participants should have that choice. I
also believe that triathletes need more guidance and
encouragement in regard to the distance of the triathlon in which
they should participate. Unfortunately, triathlon has the image
that unless you participate in the Ironman or Olympic distance
triathlon, you are a second class, out of shape, triathlete.
Such an image only contributes to injury and safety problems.
Tri-Fed does not do enough to promote the image of the short
course triathlete. Finally, some triathlons do not have enough
life guards or medical personal. Even if they do, the race should
be stopped or the swimmers should be required to exit at a
different location if a person is being treated at the finish.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Jeff Mazer
>
> I suggest that Tri Fed study this issue much like they studied
> the wetsuit issue. In my opinion, the rule should state that
> competitors should not be allowed to have any body contact and if
> they do, they are disqualified from the race. New, novice, or
> slower triathletes, especially in a race the size of Mrs. T's,
> should be placed in a separate wave at the end of the race.
I think that this is an area where you can't do much in the way of
regulation. Everyone who has been in a race knows that there is a
certain amount of incidental contact. You can start at the front
or the back or the left or the rights of the pack, and you are still
likely to have contact with someone. Trying to figure out what would
be ok contact and not-ok contact would be a nightmare. If there is
out and out fighting, however, that is a different matter, and harsh
punishment seems appropriate.
With regard to Mrs. T's specifically, I have been reading the various
race reports and wondering "why does there have to be a 5000 person
triathlon?" It seems to me that with that many people, there are going
to be a large number of people in the water at one time and large waves.
Also, someone earlier in the week mentioned that the swim was pretty
well hemmed in at the beginning between a wall and the lifeguards. With
that many people in the water at once, isn't the swim going to be
inherently somewhat dangerous? Also, having done Mrs. T's for the
four or five years before this one, I know that there are a lot of
lifeguards. But again, with that many people in the water at once, can
there ever be enough lifeguards?
I don't think it is something I would like to see rules about, but
maybe race directors should just be more conscious of the risk of having
so many people in the water at once. If that means that races are
smaller or there are more waves, I think that would be ok.
Jeff Mazer
-Jensen,T.R.
>The official word after an autopsy is the man died due to drowning. His
>lungs were filled with water and there was no evidence of a heart attack.
>(This was buried in the middle of the Chicago Tribune on Tuesday.)
>I also heard he was ex-collegiate swimmer.
Sorry, but I'm not sure if there was no evidence of a heart attack.
The Trib only reported that drowning was cited as the reason for
John Mawdsley's death.
Tricia Richter
wrote:
>***** Maybe then you would not make such moronic remarks.****
>
>
> Don Herron
> tri...@aol.com
Don---
I think you are being a little harsh! You've responded personally to
almost everyone who expressed reservations about further regulation;
nobody said out and out, "Oh, that's stupid!" I think everyone, including
me, was just trying to look at the other sides of the issue. Ruth never
said anything *close* to doing away with existing rules, i.e., the helmet
rules. I found this post a bit extreme and certainly unfair to Ruth.
Personal attacks are simply uncool.
In another post, you wrote
"I suggest that Tri Fed study this issue much like they studied
the wetsuit issue. In my opinion, the rule should state that
competitors should not be allowed to have any body contact and if
they do, they are disqualified from the race."
I'm afraid that is simply unrealistic. I'm not "condoning" pummeling and
kicking, etc. in the swim--- I'm just saying that, even in a field as small
as 10 or 12 people, there is bound to be *some* contact.
I do agree, some rules regarding wave sizes and course design might not be
a bad idea, though.
No flames intended in any of this, just trying to play a calm voice of
rationality here.
Tri Safe!
Triat40
I am sorry that I offended you, Ruth, or others, in my note reply
note to Ruth. I was not, and did not mean to, call "Ruth"
herself, a moron, but rather her remark. Sometimes we say things
and after further thought we later conclude that our first
comment was not correct. Ruth's additional note certainly
indicates that she has given this matter some further thought,
for which I am very pleased. I did not intend to start any name
calling and upon further reflection I now realize that I came to
close to that line. I agree with you that name calling is
inappropriate. However, the notion that John Mawdsly, who by the
way I have never met, died simply because he was part of the
general mortality rate, is quite frankly, ridiculous. I wanted
everyone on the rst to realize that, in no uncertain terms. When
I wrote my original note I had hoped that people would take this
matter very seriously and that maybe some change for the safety
of all triathletes would come out of this. Obviously, some
disagree with my opinion and have stated a more rational basis
for their opinion than I feel Ruth did. A person has died. Others
may die or get hurt. This bothers me a great deal. I have
received numerous notes from triathletes who have been swam over
and battered during the swim. I received a note that a number of
women at Mrs. T's were bragging after the race about how they
"swam over" at least ten people. The responses indicate that some
people want to be able to duke it out in the water. What has our
sport come to and where are we headed? The more I discover about
this problem, the more disgusted I become.
I am thankful that some people such at QRman have made
constructive suggestions about how to improve the swim. I am
still hopeful that our sport will be safer as the result of our
awareness of this problem. I would say this in person to anyone
and I would also repeat my feelings to Ruth in person if I had
the opportunity. If concern about your, Ruth's, and every other
triathletes safety makes me an outcast, then I suspect that me
and my family should consider participating in another sport.
However, if triathletes are the caring considerate people I
always experienced them to be, then I suspect that brawling
during the swim will be a thing of the past.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Rolf Arands
First, I agree that this was a sad and terrible incident
for the athlete's family, friends, and fellow
competitors. My condolences to all of you.
The only question which I find lingering in my mind
is whether the rough swim start was the direct cause.
That is, given every ideal condition and swim course design
and lifesaving training possible, might not the
same terrible incident have occurred. Before we condemn
the swim start and each other and the rules and Tri-Fed, a step
back rationally might reveal things that might otherwise
be missed. And as someone said, it tends to be easy
to be nasty on the Internet. Gotta be careful with that, in
my opinion.
I feel badly for this gentleman and his family. Regardless of
the cause, it is sad. Very sad.
-Rolf
--
Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. |
(Back by popular demand...) | "Do."
ara...@sol.rutgers.edu |
Triat40
With observations such as yours it is easy to see why golf is a far more
popular sport than triathlon!
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Tandriesen
in several lake where you can hardly see your hand enter the water in
front of you let alone see the other swimmers. Incidental contact is just
a fact of life. Obvious and blatant contact i.e. swimming over others
could clearly be controlled (assuming an adequate number of lifeguard). I
see no reason persons engaging in this type of conduct shouldn't be
disqualified. I, like many others, have a wife and kids and race for the
fun of it. I recognize there are risks in triathlons but like to think
those challenges are between me and the course, not the result of malice
by another competitor. I fought semi contact karate for many years and
quit for that very reason. We certainly need to keep this element out of
triathlon.
I have a hard time understanding why anyone would engage in this
behaviour. My experience with other triathletes has always been that there
is a very helpful and sportmanlike attitude. Much more so than in other
sports. Like someone mentioned before, I would gladly trash my race to
help someone in serious trouble.
Tim Andriesen
Decatur, IL
"If you can't run with the big dogs, train harder"
Kazez
numbers of triathletes by a death of a participant, you forfeit, in my
mind, any claim to
be a person of compassion. To call moronic the observation that every
day, every seven hours, there are, reliably, several deaths in Chicago,
is to make your tenuous grasp of facts clear.
You have appropriated for yourself a position as lone upholder of high
virtuous safety standards. It is a soi-disant position that is not so
easily earned simply by yelling "hey, the kitchen is hot! Cool it down
for those of us who don't like the heat." Everyone who is in a
position to make triathlon safer is doing so. Nevertheless, the sport
is, by its nature, less safe than, let's say, golf or badminton. There
is a choice.
Ruth Kazez
ex...@psu.edu
John Enright
: However, if triathletes are the caring considerate people I
: always experienced them to be, then I suspect that brawling
: during the swim will be a thing of the past.
I just want to throw in that I have participated in VERY competitive
swims, but have never been brawled with. My secret is simply that I know
I'm slow and I know I don't want to brawl, so I am careful to place
myself out of harm's way.
I get passed, of course, by the leaders of the next wave, but none of
them have ever swum over me, since we're out in the open by then, and
swimming over me would probably just slow them down.
Of course, if he was in his first triathlon, despite being a
practiced swimmer, he might not have known how best to seed himself in
the wave.
Has anyone established that the victim was swum over? Or is that simply
a scary possibility at this point?
-------------------------------------------------------------
John Enright from address: jenr...@home.interaccess.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob C. Hooker
No...the reason why more people play golf is because it requires only a
set of golf clubs and the ability to hit a golf ball.
-Jacob
Myles Cockburn
> how many of them die in a seven hour period. Answer, none.
It depends when and where the seven hour period is (summer/winter,
day/night, Chicago/Calcutta etc), and
what age-range you're looking at. Although one would probably not expect
a death in 5000 people in 7 hours on average (I'm taking your word for
this, although I have a suspicion there would be a few) in Chicago, there
are two more important questions: 1) would you expect 1
*accident-related* death (which I'm assuming this one was) in a group
of Tri-heads in 7 hours in the Mrs Ts race, and 2) if you had 1 death,
would that be an unusual observation (sometimes referred to as a
'significant occurrence', meaning not due to chance) or a 'chance'
occurrence cf the whole field drowning cos of a freak tidal wave?
Leave mortality rates out of this argument, cos its really complicated,
and too easy to use 'stats' to support any argument you like.
Anyways, its kind of irrelevant to the thread.
Condolences to the family/friends of the triathlete in question - may he
forever rest in a place of PRs, frictionless roads and cramp-free legs.
Regards,
TriGit
Myles Cockburn,
Department of Preventive and Social Medicine,
University of Otago Medical School,
P O Box 913, Ph (03) 479 7235 (wk)
Dunedin, (03) 467 2921 (hm)
NEW ZEALAND. Fax (03) 479 7298
e-mail my...@dolly.otago.ac.nz
or my...@gandalf.otago.ac.nz
or my...@thorin.otago.ac.nz
TGCarlson
1. According to the Chicago Tribune, the coroner's report stated that the
unfortunate man who died did NOT die of a heart attack.
2. John Mawdsley, of Barrington, Illinois, the man who died, was 39 years
old and a successful entrepreneur/businessman and the CEO of his own
plumbing company.
3. Medical officials said: "Maybe he was working too hard or had a
cramp. He choked and got water into his lungs," the official said. "His
heart was completely normal, and there was no injury to his body that
could have caused him to lose consciousness. It was a freak accident."
4. He had done other triathlons before and worked hard at his
conditioning.
The story said he was a very strong man of relatively large size, was not
fat, did not smoke, had no apparent health problems and autopsy showed no
heart damage.
5. He was a member of a relay team thus it can be inferred was a decent
swimmer and was in no way over his head as far as length of swim and
certainly not lake temperature.
In many sports, deaths cause the participants to rethink safety issues.
Often, if the victim was a pre-existing medical condition or was in some
way unfit, or, as in the case of fabio Casertelli, if he was not wearing a
safety helmet, those issues become the focus, and most people are
satisfied with the nmarrow reason for the deathj and things continue as
before and stop thinking about the general safety issues. In this case,
there are no extenuating circumstances that would stop us from examining
safety issues regarding the swim in triathlon. Although we do not know
precvisely what happened, I think all of us are aware of times when we got
belted hard enough to make us choke in the water and that did not leave a
bruise. I think that mass starts and narrow access to sharp buoy turns are
problems smart race directors can avoid. I am also sure that further
examination and thought can come up with some ideas to make the sport
safer.
For the record, here are some relevant excepts from the Chicago Tribune
stories:
"On Sunday, 39-year-old Barrington resident John Mawdsley died while
swimming in Mrs. T.'s Chicago triathlon. By all accounts, he was in good
physical condition, swam regularly and seemed to be a good candidate for a
triathlon competition. Still, he died, and a spokesperson for the Cook
County medical examiner's office said Monday that the cause of death was
determined to be drowning, and not the heart attack that many had
suspected on Sunday.
"Maybe he was working too hard or had a cramp. He choked and got water
into his lungs," the official said.
"His heart was completely normal, and there was no injury to his body
that
could have caused him to lose consciousness. It was a freak accident."
Although deaths are generally unusual in the sport, a heart attack did
claim the life of 42-year-old Mike Lanham last year during a similar event
in
Chicago. Of the hundreds of thousands of athletes competing in Triathlon
Federation/USA-sanctioned events since 1985, 10 people have died during
competition. Heart disease is the most common cause of fatalities.
"To sustain a strenuous activity like a triathlon, or even a vigorous
game
of tennis, you need an adequate supply of oxygen to the heart muscle,"
said
Dr. Mary O'Toole, an exercise physiologist with the American College of
Sports Medicine.
"In a heart attack, there isn't enough oxygen delivery to the organ,
usually because of a clot or blockage in the blood vessels that feed the
heart."
Muscle damage can prevent the heart from pumping blood to the body,
which
can be lethal...."
Article two: "Chicago Tribune: An athletic Barrington executive who had
climbed the corporate ladder to its top rung became the second participant
in two years to die in the Mrs.T's Chicago triathlon on Sunday.
John Mawdsley, 39, who last year was named president of Rolling
Meadows-based Sterling Plumbing Group Inc., apparently suffered a heart
attack in the waters of Lake Michigan about three-quarters of the way
through
his 1.3-kilometer swim, according to race officials.
Two lifeguards noticed him unconscious in the water almost immediately
and
pulled him into a speedboat. They then rushed him to the shore of 12th
Street
Beach, where doctors tried unsuccessfully to resuscitate him.
An ambulance took Mawdsley to Northwestern Memorial Hospital, where he
was pronounced dead at 9:51 a.m., according to a nursing supervisor.
An autopsy is scheduled for Monday to determine the exact cause of
death.
Race officials and Mawdsley's co-workers were floored by news of his
death
on Sunday.
"It's a tragedy," said Lloyd Everard, vice president of human relations
for Sterling. "He was a big man, a very powerful individual. But he was
not
at all overweight. He ran regularly, he didn't smoke, he watched his diet.
He
was the last person I would think would succumb to an event like this."
Everard, who was acting as a spokesman for Mawdsley's family Sunday,
said
that Mawdsley had been specifically training for the swim for several
weeks
and had swum the distance of the race-about nine-tenths of a mile-a number
of
times.
Co-workers called Mawdsley an ambitious businessman.
"He was a truly dynamic individual," Everard said. "He was someone who
could really make things happen. And he was very competitive by nature.
The
triathalon was very true to form for him."
Mawdsley's death cast an eerie pall on the triathalon-touted as the
world's largest with 5,298 participants-because it followed the death of
Chicagoan Mike Lanham, 42, last year shortly after he emerged from the
water.
The race is composed of a 1.3-kilometer swim, a 40-kilometer bicycle ride
and
a 10-kilometer run.
Mawdsley was participating in a relay heat of the race and so was
involved
only in the swimming portion of the event.
Triathalon officials said deaths are rare during the races because
triathletes take the race and their physical conditioning very seriously.
"We had 5,298 athletes who came out, and we have to assume that people
who
sign up are physically fit for the race," said race spokeswoman Kathy
McGill.
"It's very strenuous."
Mawdsley and his wife, Diane, have a son, Matthew, 7, and a daughter,
Megan, 10.
Funeral arrangements for Mawdsley are pending."
-- Timothy Carlson
ccor...@ultranet.com
>I agree that some of the physical contact in the water can be dangerous.
>However, much of the physical contact that occurs in a triathlon the size
>this year's Mrs. T's may be due to the large number of swimmers and not
>necessarily because of intense competition.
The large number of swimmers alone does not constitute a dangerous
swim start. It is the combination of a lot of swimmers and a narrow
swim start. For example, in Muncie, the swim start is a very wide beach,
and you would never have known there were 150 other swimmers in
the water because it was very nicely spread out over the entire beach
area. It was pretty calm with very little banging or pummeling.
In Chicago, by contrast, there was a row of boats the entire length
of the seawall that formed a very narrow corridor. There was no
opportunity to spread out or swim at the edge. That guaranteed
that there would be lots of crowding on the first 1/4 mile of the
swim.
If the swim start is going to be very narrow, the number of people
in the wave should be dramatically reduced. Just my opinion.
Cathy Corning
H: ccor...@ultranet.com
W: ccor...@vnet.ibm.com
John Enright
: 4. He had done other triathlons before
Do you have a source for this? It didn't seem to be included in the
Tribune articles you typed in. I was pretty sure it was his first. But
I'd be glad to be corrected. Thanks.
ccor...@ultranet.com
>vs. wave, simply about course design). Hawaii gets away with this because
>of its very wide start coupled with a very long stretch before the first
>turn.
Dan,
Last year Hawaii had a new swim start. There was a boat out in
the water, and the start line went between the boat and the pier.
Although there was plenty of room between the starting line and
the beach, it was very narrow between the boat and the pier. It
was not a wide start. Although the swimmers had spread themselves
out nicely from the starting line back to the beach, as soon as the
swim started, it immediately clogged up trying to pass through the
opening between the boat and the pier. I was a little ways back,
and was able to start swimming right at the start, but when I got
up to the boat, I literally was doing the dog paddle and barely
moving as way too many bodies were trying to pass through a
narrow space.
Tim Lester
Chicago Tribune: Two lifeguards noticed him unconscious in the water
almost immediately.
What does this mean? They saw him swimming and then almost immediately
they noticed that he was unconscious? No struggle no thrashing around?
Nothing to indicate a problem? What does almost immediately mean. Is
this a poor choice of words in reporting?
Something went wrong. We are all talking about what may have caused it.
Whatever it was he needed help an needed it fast. That is what the life
guards were there for. We were not swimming alone out there, someone
must have seen something.
How long does it take for a person to drown? What is the probability
rate of survival given different intervals of time between initial
trauma and rival attempts? What special equipment was available on the
beach?
Who is the person that is going go have the responsibility for a full
investigation of the whole thing? Talk to the life guards and everyone
involved and then publish findings? What is their name?
BPSullivan
time containing my sadness as I think about Don Herron with those children
watching their lifeless father. The things I conclude from reading all
this:
-- More attention must be given to swim course design (thanks Dan)
-- More attention must be given to swim waves (thanks Ruth)
-- More attention must be given to DQing rough swimmers (thanks someone)
-- We all have to take greater responsibility for making the swim safer.
-- Places like RST are great for making you think.
-- Don Herron has done us all a great favor, his error in name calling
notwithstanding.
I hope the folks at trifed listen closely to the ideas that have been
posted.
Finally, does anyone have information on any memorial fund that has been
set up? RST'ers should make contributions. Send me an address and I know
that I will.
Brian Sullivan
bpsul...@aol.com
Shelley King
writes:
> <snip>
> The things I conclude from reading all this:
>-- More attention must be given to swim course design (thanks Dan)
>-- More attention must be given to swim waves (thanks Ruth)
>-- More attention must be given to DQing rough swimmers(thanks
someone)
>-- We all have to take greater responsibility for making the swim
safer.
>-- Places like RST are great for making you think.
>I hope the folks at trifed listen closely to the ideas that have been
>posted.
At Don Herron's suggestion, I sent a letter via snail-mail to Steve
Locke at Tri-fed expressing my concerns about swim safety, and I
included the preceeding suggestions from RST. I told him about this
thread in RST, and the incredible number of posts to it.
Perhaps if enough of us make a noise, Tri-fed will come up with some
*reasonable* regulations to make the starts safer.
That address, again:
Tri-fed/USA
Attn: Steve Locke
PO Box 15820
Colorado Springs, CO 89035
-Shelley
Dan Empfield
<<Last year Hawaii had a new swim start. There was a boat out in
<<the water, and the start line went between the boat and the pier.
<<Although there was plenty of room between the starting line and
<<the beach, it was very narrow between the boat and the pier. It
<<was not a wide start.
I had forgotten about that. You're right. I guess I should have said
that every OTHER year this is what has been nice about Hawaii.
Dan
Blair Maddock
forth in the gymnasium. The swim could be an out and back course between two
parallel lines (beach and row of buoys?). There would be no turnaround crowding
or start crowding. Just pick a free space and swim.
|x--> | b
Shore | | u
|x--> | o
| | y
|x--> | s
| |
| |
| |
| |
Just a though all,
Blair Maddock
Rolf Arands
> |x--> | b
> Shore | | u
> |x--> | o
> | | y
> |x--> | s
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
(Not a flame...)
The only problems are
1. You will have swimmers in two directions in the same swim area.
2. Cheaters can easily duck under and change direction.
Tim Lester
A frame by frame review (30 video frames per second) of the helo shot
shows the swimmers spread out almost twice as wide as the boat at the
start line ( a trimaran) several hundred feet after the start line.
Many must have felt the pinch and gone wide of the boat.
The jam around the bow of the sub shows how congested things can get.
The video shows the mistake that most made of swimming along the turn
around boat and the sub rather than take the straight shot. The
straight shooters and hull swimmers converged at the sub bow.
I did not see that Coast Guard boat anywhere but I did not dream it.
Another interesting shot: A mass of swimmers with an orange course bouy
in the middle in the earlier part of the swim. People had spread far
left as well as far right after the start line.
Tim Lester
Tim Lester
Triat40
swim portion of triathlons, I had hoped that everyone reading rst
would offer their suggestions on how we could go about improving
the safety of the swim. Over the past few days we have obtained
some excellent suggestions. I hope that each of you will make
further suggestions in this regard. At one time many thought that
it was unreasonable for people to attempt an Ironman race.
Triathletes have proven through their ingenuity and will power
that such a feat is not impossible. The suggestions posted on the
rst indicate that the ingenuity of triathletes can also play an
important role in making triathlon a safer sport. Sometime next
week, I will bundle up the various suggestions and send them to
Tri-Fed. All are worth Tri-Feds's serious consideration. Thank
you for your help in what is very serious subject to me and many
others who have responded.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Tim Lester
time I got to the start line. Where I did experience a bottleneck was
at the Coast Guard boat to the left and course bouys to the right. This
was about one fourth of the way to the turn around. If I look at the
video again I think there is a shot of the spread out field at the time
that we would have crossed the start line.
Prior to the race I examined the course chart at the KIng Kam and was
determined to avoid the longest swim line where you start wide, swim to
the bouys at the one fourth point and then swim the bouy line, like I
did the previous year.
Foiled again! It got uncomfortably tight around that Coast Guard boat.
Kurian Davis
>
>
>Don Herron
>tri...@aol.com
>
>
Okay, that's it. I'm afraid that my contempt has overflowed it's social=
ly acceptable container. However, as you seem to be an intelligent and sym=
pathetic person, I will attempt to politely point out that your efforts ar=
e at best premature, and at worst misguided in the extreme.
My recollection is that you *demanded* that changes be made in the w=
ake of the death of one "our" (not your) own. I would say that this death =
belongs to all of us in some sense, and that you, sir, have no inherent si=
ngular claim to the podium of self-righteousness. I have yet to understand=
how you made the leap of logic from the rather bare reported facts to the=
conclusion that some change in swim start regulations might have prevente=
d his death. Your attempt to forge ahead in the absence of even the appear=
ance of possession of satisfactorily accurate information strikes me as sa=
nctimonious and self-serving. It is certainly no service to John Mawdsley =
to imply that his misfortune is indicative of conditions which you interpr=
et to be problematic, while it remains unclear whether or not they truly a=
re. How are you going to feel if it turns out that there were other factor=
s involved in this that you were unaware of when you rushed off that packa=
ge of angry letters to Tri-Fed? As if they could really regulate away this=
sort of thing. After viewing the coverage of the race, if I find that the=
re were large packs of bunched swimmers at the 3/4 point of the swim, I wi=
ll apologize to you for doubting your interpolations on their face, but un=
til then, you continue to do us all a disservice by calling for solutions =
to a problem which has not yet been identified clearly. How about echoing =
the posts of some in asking who's investigating, and how their findings wi=
ll be publicized? Or doing some investigating of your own? Who talked to t=
he lifeguards who pulled him from the water? What did they see? What is th=
e race director doing to look into this? What does he know so far? You've =
conveniently ignored any and all pointed inquiries into the specifics of t=
his other than to insist that he didn't suffer a heart attack. What do you=
know that we don't that convinces you that we're all in danger? If it's o=
nly that hundreds of bodies in a confined area of water can be potentional=
ly fatal, I think it's a given. Who wouldn't welcome *suggestions* to comb=
at that possibility? But demands of Tri-Fed to protect us from ourselves? =
Give me a huge break. What do you think, that we go from helpful courteous=
folks in transition to sharks in the water? There is an adage that some p=
ercentage of anything is cr*p, and I think that there are always some athl=
etes who'll cheat, draft, and interfere in the water. I think it's mostly =
a lack of education, not of good intent. Swimming over someone is bound to=
take longer than going around for a decent swimmer, and a slow swimmer is=
n't going to catch anyone to swim over. Especially with some self seeding.
You have indeed elicited some excellent suggestions for improving the l=
ogistics of swim starts in general. I attribute this to exactly those qual=
ities you mention in our more cerebral colleagues. I don't know but that s=
ome of them might object to your "bundling" their observations without the=
ir express permission and stamping them with the label "Demands for Change=
" or some such. They may indeed be worth Tri-Fed's consideration, but I im=
agine that if anyone posting to this newsgroup wishes to make suggestions =
to Tri-Fed, they are quite capable of doing so independently of your crusa=
de. By the way, Steve Locke is online (TRIFE...@aol.com, I think), and I=
believe you can reach them @ TRIF...@aol.com as well.
I certainly hope that as your efforts are obviously made with the most =
honorable of intentions, that you may at some point begin to recognize tha=
t you may be herding us all down a precarious path which some of us may no=
t yet have chosen as the most appropriate.
I wish you good luck at the races, and hope you will find the strength =
and wisdom to come to terms with this issue which has obviously affected y=
ou deeply.
Regards,
Kurian Davis
kur...@relgyro.stanford.edu
Hummgbrd
a few accidental kicks and hits-but everyone was being as "polite" as they
could, I felt.
As far as I know everyone got thru the swim safely.
Cheaters in our sport?? I guess I like to live in a dream world but I
can't believe someone would cut a swim course...or a run or bike
course...how could someone live with that?
Cheryl (Humm...@aol.com)
Pat Brug
(BPSullivan) wrote:
> I have just read through all 24 posts on this thread, and am having a hard
> time containing my sadness as I think about Don Herron with those children
> watching their lifeless father. The things I conclude from reading all
> this:
> -- More attention must be given to swim course design (thanks Dan)
> -- More attention must be given to swim waves (thanks Ruth)
> -- More attention must be given to DQing rough swimmers (thanks someone)
> -- We all have to take greater responsibility for making the swim safer.
> -- Places like RST are great for making you think.
> -- Don Herron has done us all a great favor, his error in name calling
I think you can add a few more...
-- make sure the waves are spread out with reasonable time intervals (at
Wendy's this year the lead pack of my wave caught the back of the previous
wave at 300 m in a 800 m swim). IMHO, it is totally unfair for the slower
swimmers to be swept up by the faster swimmers in the next wave.
-- learn to do the Tarzan crawl, approach stroke for you lifeguards. If
someone is continually hitting you, just slow down for a few seconds and
get on their feet. Also you'll be able to navigate around those
criss-crossing swimmers.
-- have a *getaway plan*. As a person who wears contacts, it can be a
real bummer when your goggles get knocked off. You really have no choice
but to put your goggles back on. If this happens at the swim start,
you're going to get swum over. It's happened to me. When you find
yourself underwater, dive down a little deeper and swim perpendicular to
the pack and get yourself clear. Calm yourself, get your bearing and
continue.
-- demand safer equipment. It doesn't seem that hard for wetsuit
manufacturers to design a wetsuit with an internal bladder that could act
as a lifejacket. The bladder could be CO2 activated by a panick
button/cord-- just like many lifejackets. QRman care to comment?
-- design safer starts. One idea is to actually put lane lines out for
the first 50m or so until people get spread out.
As to thrashers...
People do intentionally clobber others in the swim. They most likely
don't start the swim with that intention. I've heard people
talking...after I was kicked in the groin... or after that Joe-Bob hit me
5 times... it made me so mad I just smacked 'em. I had a relatively
mild-mannered friend do the same thing at IM a couple of years ago. It's
a shame, but you must be realistic and realize that a lot of people lose
their tempers.
Then you have the water-polo types, as QRman described, they will swim
over you. It is a part of water polo. It's not being cheap, just the way
that particular game is played. Unfortunately, most people don't
appreciate it in triathlons.
Finally, triathlon is a great sport where the 100 lbs "ballerinas" can
truly compete with 200 lbs clydesdales. A relatively mild blow from a
fairly big, strong person can be pretty devastating to a smaller person.
It wasn't an intentional thrashing, but the result is still the same.
As to self-seeding...
You can only minimize your chances of getting swum over by proper
seeding. It's sort of like crashing on the bike. There's those swimmers
who've been swum over, and those who are going to be.
Maybe the time-trial swim start has a lot more merit than people realize?
---------------------------------------------
__-------__
W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_
Los Alamos National Lab -__ __-
\ /
internet: br...@lanl.gov | |
cis: 72410,3372 / \
-----------------..-^--^--..-.- --^.-----
---------------------------------------------
wayne....@the-spa.com
>
> Maybe you need to go back out for a long run
>
>
> Don Herron
Hay come on Don!
I don't think Ruth or anyone else in this sport is as cold hearted as noted in your last post. Sure smaller waves, wider starts,
less people will solve the problem, but how do you regulate safety of this kind and enforce it.
Lets face it this sport has its risk, a risk we all accept. I for one and I hope this true with most will not attack someone in
the swim, but I have taken some hits and given some. Its hard to avoid.
I am very sorry to hear of the loss of a fellow athlete.
Wayne
Tricia Richter
kur...@relgyro.stanford.edu (Kurian Davis) wrote:
>
> Okay, that's it. I'm afraid that my contempt has overflowed it's social=
> ly acceptable container. However, as you seem to be an intelligent and sym=
> pathetic person, I will attempt to politely point out that your efforts ar=
> e at best premature, and at worst misguided in the extreme.
>
* excellent and very solid points made and explained*
> Kurian Davis
> kur...@relgyro.stanford.edu
Kurian---
Thank you. I have been trying to remain civil about this self-righteous
sanctimony, but reading this post was an absolute relief!
Don---
I'm sorry, but your self-righteousness completely turns me off from your
cause. The idea of making swim starts safe is certainly a good one, but
you seem to be jumping to conclusions right and left with no
substantiation. You refuse to acknowledge some basic facts that contradict
the validity of your proposals. Then, if someone suggests a more rational
approach, you launch personal attacks.
Would it be possible for you to maybe admit some difficulties in your
proposals, then seek ways around them? Thus far, you have allowed no room
for deviation from the most extreme version of your ideas. Why is it so
hard for you to compromise a little bit? It frankly scares me to see
someone being so single-minded and unbending.
I'm sorry if this is flame-like, but I've simply found your position
baffling and unnerving.
Tricia
--
_
o - o
' /|_ - </\_
` ' _ /\ _ - __/\
/\o_ (( ) ( )) - /
^^^^^^^^^^ - -
Kurian Davis
Triat40 wrote:
>Kirian,
>
>I have been willingly let you ramble without response because you
>seem to be carrying the "we can't do anything about it flag" and
>I see nothing wrong with people expressing opposing views.=20
Thank you ever so much for "letting" me ramble in all 2 of my posts on thi=
s subject.
Your
>more recent posts however, seem to invite me if not taunt me to
>respond.
I certainly welcome your reasoned response. I had absolutely no intent to =
taunt you in any way. Any humour I may have employed was intended to avoid=
dragging down the level of debate any further.
It is difficult for me not to get personal with you, not
>because of any triathlon experience, but rather your obvious
>unfounded insecurities about change.
I'd say that feeling insecure about potential changes in our sport is prob=
ably well-founded and possibly widespread, given the heavy-handed actions =
of the ITU. If I am insecure about this, why does that make it hard for yo=
u to avoid personal attacks?
You must be at a point in
>life in which you find it difficult be governed by rules, to
>imagine how we might improve life, or to reject death over life.
Not at all. Just don't need any more than necessary. And I doubt that deat=
h will give me any opportunity to cheat. Improve life? Sure, why not. But =
not by piggybacking on the misfortune of a fellow competitor.
>Do you and your friend Tricia sit around and whine in fear that
>my rst note might somehow destroy the sport of triathlon?
No. I do it all by myself. Seriously though, my intent was to register my =
lack of enthusiasm for asking that changes be made from the top down. Just=
dissenting from your proposed course of action.
If I am
>as off base as you claim, why do you fear that Tri-Fed might
>actually take some action regarding this issue? =20
I don't fear their investigating this incident and acting on their *conclu=
sions* [con-clu-sion: 1a: a reasoned judgement]. I don't fear Tri-Fed cons=
idering the sincere misgivings some have about the safety of swim starts. =
I do fear a premature decision being made as a result of demands made in o=
ur behalf by you or anyone else who seems not to consider the possible val=
idity of opposing points of view, or even cautions to proceed with some me=
asure of wisdom.
>In a prior note I asked your friend Tricia, "as triathletes, can
>we not at least expect that the present rules will be enforced."
I've had the pleasure of meeting Tricia once. We talked for maybe fifteen =
minutes, when we should have been swimming. Very nice woman. I would feel =
presumptuous, though honored to consider her a friend, but I think I resen=
t your vaugue inference that two opposing opinions equal a conspiracy.=20
>Your response, "if we can't get it on the bikes, I doubt it's
>going to happen in the swim."=20
And I stand by that. If you don't get enforcement whre you can actually se=
e a foul, how can you expect that you will get it where most fouls would b=
e invisible to an official? God, I hate it when reality intrudes.
Now that is a logical basis for not
>seeking to make the swim safer.=20
I never said it was. I said that enforcement is a tall order with the exis=
ting rules. Moreover, I don't think you're in a terribly strong position t=
o wave the flag of logic at this point.
Maybe we should do away with
>drunk driving laws or not consider making the penalties sticker
>under the guise that some still drive drunk and therefore the
>laws are not effective.=20
See what I mean?
Or, maybe, as history shows, strict enforcement of existing
laws might be a first logical step.
Maybe we should not reduce the speed of
>cars in school zones under the guise that some people will not
>slow down and children will be ran over anyway. As you say, "as
>if they could regulate away this sort of thing anyway." Do you
>propose that we do away with all rules? If not, then you argument
>makes little sense.
I never said "don't make sensible rules, because some won't follow them". =
And correct me if I'm wrong but can't I be in favor of some regulation? Do=
I have to take all or none? My argument was that rather than demand chang=
es based on a man's death, we might examine the issues separately, trying =
to find the reason for John Mawdsley's death, and certainly, if competitor=
s including yourself feel that some changes might benefit the sport, askin=
g race directors, Tri-Fed, and anyone else you like to examine the situati=
on.
No one can regulate tragedy (or the laws of physics), but we can certai=
nly call attention to potentially dangerous situations, and ask that we al=
l try to look out for one another in the water as well as we do on dry lan=
d. I commend you for your efforts in this direction. I do think you would =
be on firmer ground however, if you based your *requests* on the basis of =
your or other's anecdotal experience, rather than holding up the death of =
an athlete as proof that your (unspecified?) changes should be implemented=
Jeff Towers
I just began triathlons this summer and the only advice
I received, from friends not organizers, was to seed
myself accurately. I understand that from an organizers
perspective the onus is on the participant for safety.
But I do think investigations and statistics need to be
kept regarding safety, injuries, and recommendations.
Could we create a standard, brief questionaire, for
triathletes to fill out post-race regarding injuries.
Ideally, in order to be sanctioned, a race would
have to provide this to athletes on a voluntary ,conscientious,
basis. As well, a phone number should be available to
report injuries after the fact, say for 48hrs.
The organizing body could require this to be submitted
with results, and that its findings be presented prominently
in poster form at the race (that is a safety policy
developed by the organizing body and reviewed based on
experience should be available to triathletes, maybe in
the race kit is even better than a poster). Well, there
are a number of tactical obstacles, but can we get the
ball rolling?
This sort of safety-policy document could accompany the liability
waiver we sign. I think it would be good for all
concerned.
Jeff
Rolf Arands (ara...@sol.rutgers.edu) wrote:
> First, I agree that this was a sad and terrible incident
> for the athlete's family, friends, and fellow
> competitors. My condolences to all of you.
> The only question which I find lingering in my mind
> is whether the rough swim start was the direct cause.
> That is, given every ideal condition and swim course design
> and lifesaving training possible, might not the
> same terrible incident have occurred. Before we condemn
> the swim start and each other and the rules and Tri-Fed, a step
> back rationally might reveal things that might otherwise
> be missed. And as someone said, it tends to be easy
> to be nasty on the Internet. Gotta be careful with that, in
> my opinion.
> I feel badly for this gentleman and his family. Regardless of
> the cause, it is sad. Very sad.
Triat40
I have been willingly let you ramble without response because you
seem to be carrying the "we can't do anything about it flag" and
I see nothing wrong with people expressing opposing views. Your
more recent posts however, seem to invite me if not taunt me to
respond. It is difficult for me not to get personal with you, not
because of any triathlon experience, but rather your obvious
unfounded insecurities about change. You must be at a point in
life in which you find it difficult be governed by rules, to
imagine how we might improve life, or to reject death over life.
Do you and your friend Tricia sit around and whine in fear that
my rst note might somehow destroy the sport of triathlon? If I am
as off base as you claim, why do you fear that Tri-Fed might
actually take some action regarding this issue?
In a prior note I asked your friend Tricia, "as triathletes, can
we not at least expect that the present rules will be enforced."
Your response, "if we can't get it on the bikes, I doubt it's
going to happen in the swim." Now that is a logical basis for not
seeking to make the swim safer. Maybe we should do away with
drunk driving laws or not consider making the penalties sticker
under the guise that some still drive drunk and therefore the
laws are not effective. Maybe we should not reduce the speed of
cars in school zones under the guise that some people will not
slow down and children will be ran over anyway. As you say, "as
if they could regulate away this sort of thing anyway." Do you
propose that we do away with all rules? If not, then you argument
makes little sense.
You go on to claim that my attempts are premature. To the
contrary Kirian, my attempts are far too late. I, like you
apparently, wanted to look the other way to a problem that was
staring us in the face. The triathlon swim has been plagued with
potential safety problems for years. Little, if anything, has
been done to investigate, discuss, or change these problems.
Maybe you are talented enough that you swim in the front, but
most of the people I know are not so lucky and have encountered
what they consider to be serious problems during some triathlons.
Some triathlons have few or no lifeguards. Do you think Kirian
that this might be something we should change, or is this
something that is to extreme to your way of thinking. No doubt it
is premature, I have yet to present you evidence that someone
died because of lack of lifeguards.
While we are at it, let's set the record straight regarding
another subject. I have never claimed that John Mawdsley's death
was in any way attributable to another athletes acts or even the
swim start. I, like you, do not know the mechanism of John's
demise. I do know one thing, the death was not the result of the
general mortality rate in Chicago. John's death was simply a
catalyst for me to examine the safeness of the triathlon swim.
After making that examination and talking with other triathletes,
I came to the conclusion that we need to consider changes in that
regard. As I explained to your compatriot Tricia in another note,
we need to holler at Tri-Fed before someone dies, not after. No
matter how John died, I believe that we should attempt to address
these issues before some triathlete does get hurt. It is a pity
that you see that as "at best premature."
You ask, "how am I going to feel if it turns out that there were
other factors involved in this that I was unaware of when I
rushed off that package of angry letters to Tri-Fed?" It makes no
difference in my eyes if there are other factors involved or not,
I believe that the triathlon swim can be made a safer event. From
what I have seen, sooner or later, if we remain on the same
course, someone is destined to get hurt.
You claim that the problem has yet to be identified clearly. Have
you even read the notes on this subject? Do you think there might
be a problem when some report being pummeled in the swim? Do you
think there might be problem when the swim course is too narrow?
Do you think there might be a problem when people actually
practice swimming over people? Do you think there might be a
problem when QRman's wife must alter her swim course because of
overzealous athletes? Do you think, or even wonder, if there
might be a problem when people are actually fist fighting during
the swim? Clean off your goggles Kirian, there are clearly
problems.
I fully support and have encouraged the investigation of John's
death. I hope that Tri-Fed and the race organizers will seriously
investigate the case, but I have doubts that they will. In light
of the fact that you believe that they can not even enforce the
bike rules, it is surprising that you would entrust such an
investigation to them. Besides, did you not read the note that
stated the "official word" is the man had a heart attack. With
that said, don't you think it would be self serving of me to ask
for an investigation?
In more far more esoteric terms Kirian, I see this swim issue
akin to a problem with a wolf and a flock of sheep. We can stand
by like timid sheep while the wolf kills, first the weak, then
the strays, then those on the outer edges of the flock, until at
last the entire flock belongs to the wolf. We did not care about
the weak or the strays. They were not a part of the flock. We did
not care about those on the outer edges. They had chosen to be
there. But as the wolf worked its way toward the center of the
flock we discovered that we were now on the outer edges. Now we
must look the wolf squarely in the eye. That we did not do when
the first of us was ripped and torn and eaten. At that time a
simple fence could have corrected the problem. I suspect that a
few simple fences can correct the problem with the triathlon
swim. In good conscious, I can not stand by and do nothing just
because you believe that I "may be herding us all down a
precarious path which some of us may not yet have chosen as the
most appropriate."
I am sorry that you believe that my raising the issue regarding
swim safety somehow places me on "the podium of self-
righteousness." I do not know where you got that idea. You can
have the podium, I never wanted it. I never wanted to be in the
position in life which caused me to reexamine whether or not the
triathlon swim could be made safer or to have people like you
accuse me of being self righteous for suggesting change. The
podium is yours Kirian, convince us all that rules are
ineffective, that change is a mistake, and that it is useless to
make swimming a safer event. I hope that you are correct and that
I am never placed in a position wherein I actually do have
evidence that you are wrong.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
TGCarlson
Whoops. This was supposed to be the last post.
Timothy Carlson
SHUL 88
contain explanations/warnings/ and penalties for excessive kicking pushing
etc... If the race directors make a serious effort to warn it will sober
up many people to be careful.
Dan Empfield
Brug) wrote:
> -- demand safer equipment. It doesn't seem that hard for wetsuit
> manufacturers to design a wetsuit with an internal bladder that could act
> as a lifejacket. The bladder could be CO2 activated by a panick
> button/cord-- just like many lifejackets. QRman care to comment?
I cautiously like the idea. However, in the same manner as I have heard
of a few zipper cords being pulled down by unscrupulous competitors, I can
envision an enterprising competitor being unable to restrain himself from
pulling an airbad ripcord which is conveniently within arms reach. How'd
you like to be swimming along, Pat, and find yourself immediately bobbing
up and down in the water like a cork, and me backstroking away from you
with a grin on my face?
> One idea is to actually put lane lines out for the first 50m or so until
> people get spread out.
This idea I like a lot.
> As to self-seeding...
Some people don't realize that the start of any race-- on land or see--
has to have a reverse accordian effect initially, as the distance between
you and those around you can be quite close when standing or treading
water, but you need three or four times the room when you are moving. So
everyone in the start of a marathon cannot start running race pace, those
behind need to wait for those ahead to achieve the proper "running room".
Likewise in swimming. The problem is that many people fail to realize
this, and they get horizontal after the gun goes off and say, "Hey, these
people are swimming slower than I swim, I better get up there with the
swimmers who are swimming my speed." This may or may not have anything to
do with the Mrs. T's incident, however I wonder whether this might-- at
least-- spur those doing the pre-race swim course description, and the
pre-race meetings just before race start, to mention some of this stuff.
QRman
Timothy Gotsick
in this thread. I understand your concern, and I think it is probably
a good idea to remind everyone of our responsibilities towards our
fellow competitors. For that much, I thank you.
BUT...the sky is not falling, as you would have us believe. To put
things in perspective, I am absolutely certain that one's chances of
dying are much greater during the drive to the race than during the
race itself. I simply don't believe that the swim is all that dangerous
to someone who is equipped, mentally and physically, to swim the
distance. Although the shortest distance between two points is a
straight line, I have no doubt that going around a swimmer is in almost
all cases faster. As to those that practice body contact during
workouts, that seems like it might not be a bad idea; not because it
would make them better at swimming over others, but because it would
reduce anxiety about the inevitable contact during the swim.
I've been in a fair number of pretty ferocious swim starts, including
Kona '94 and the 30-34 age group Nat. Championships last year, both
of which packed a lot of highly competitive, evenly-matched swimmers
into very small spaces. Although I certainly did rub up against several
dozen folks in each race, I can't recall ever having encountered what
I would describe as malicious behavior during a swim. Maybe others are
thinking differently than I am, but I want to get out of the water as
soon after the start as possible and I don't think that wasting time and
energy battering someone else is likely to help me reach that goal.
It would be a good idea for race directors to order waves in such a way
as to minimize congestion. The TT start strikes me as the worst solution
to this problem in many cases. I know that I find the Memphis in May
swim much more crowded than most races, with speed differentials being
so large between some swimmers as to make relatively violent collisions
almost inevitable. If I might make a suggestion, and it is one that I
tried during a race I directed this summer, it is to put a final wave
in place for all those who wish specifically to avoid getting caught up
in the frenzy at the front of the pack. This seemed to work well at my
race and reduced anxiety for some of the poorer swimmers. Logistically,
this can be difficult at some races for the timers, but it might help
out those who find the swim somewhat intimidating.
Then again, anyone signing up to compete in a race with a projected 5000
participants probably ought to be prepared for serious congestion during
all three legs...
Timothy
--
Timothy Gotsick
got...@neon.chem.utk.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freds4
attended the
Mrs. T's race in Chicago. Although I didn't have time to read every post
about
the swim incident, there seem to be some misconceptions about what
happened. To begin with, the man who drowned did not have a heart attack.
An autopsy revealed that he simply drowned, and showed no signs of a heart
problem. Also, he was 3/4 of the way through the swim when it happened
which eliminates the theory of the start being the cause of the problem.
I was there as a spectator and with the exception of the start area being
narrow, I felt that the swim course was one of the safer ones that I have
seen in quite a while. The course was lined with many lifeguards both
in boats and on shore, and I saw them pull at least a dozen people
from the water. They seemed very alert and were aggressive in identifying
those in need of help. I was shocked when I learned later that someone
had drowned. Equally surprising to me was the fact that the man was
wearing
a wetsuit which should make it pretty hard to drown in a calm lake.
Steve Fredericks
Triat40
I have turned the podium over to Kirian. I have said all I really
want to say. I looked out my window and you are right, the sky is
not falling but in light of some of the comments, I thought the
roof might be falling in on me. I simply wanted to suggest, as
you have, that a few simple fences might correct the problem with
some triathlon swims. Something to think about, which I think we
have now all done which is not to say that people can not keep
blasting away at me if they so desire.
On a different but somewhat related topic, I did not want any of
my comments to indicate that the Mrs. T's triathlon is anything
less than one of the best administered and organized triathlons
in this country. Given the size of the triathlon, the race
organizers need to be applauded. I have never been in any
triathlon with as many lifeguards. Despite comments by some to
the contrary last year, I applaud the race directors for
shortening the course in an attempt to insure the safety of
participants. Obviously very caring and concerned people direct
this triathlon. Maybe some might see fit take a moment to write
the Mrs. T's race organizers and thank them for their hard work.
Don Herron
tri...@aol.com
Marty Miller
chance to respond to the tragic death at Mrs. T's (a note will also be included at the web
site). First of all, I think we can all admit that the death was tragic for his family and the
entire triathlon community. Please do not forget that. Also, since we may never know why this
tragedy occurred, it should remind us all that we have a personal responsibility for ensuring
that our actions do not endanger another competitor.
As far as swim safety, I have competed in a number of open-water events and they can indeed be
rough. There is a big difference, however, between holding your ground in the water and
intentionally kicking or punching someone. You are going to hit people while swimming with your
arms, legs and hips. That does not give you a license to intentionally propel one of these body
parts into someone. In most of the pro fields I've raced in this does not happen to an
appreciable extent (probably because you can immediately recognize who just punched you in the
face). Sure there is alot of jostling, but not intentional punching or kicking. In larger
age-group fields the same should hold true, but unfortunately it does not. While there is a
gray line between swimming for position and "pummeling" someone, we all know when we have
crossed that line. As this tragedy has demonstrated, even skilled swimmers are not completely
safe in the water, and we must all keep this in mind during a race. You would not intentionall
run into the back of another person in order to pass them on the run, so why do some people feel
that it is ok to swim over top of another. I think we all can see how this could very easily
cause the person underneath to take in a large amount of water if it happens at the wrong time,
even if that person is highly-skilled swimmer. For the skilled swimmer, there are ways to get
around someone without resorting to these tactics.
It all, however, comes down to taking responsibility for our own actions. GET OUT OF THE SPORT
IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENDANGER OTHER ATHLETES DURING COMPETITION. I'm not implying
that there are people out there like that, but things I have experienced tend to indicate
otherwise. In addition, there are very few, if any, whose race performance will determine
whether or not food will be on the table the next week. Thus, not only should be not endanger
our fellow athletes, we should also take some responsibility for assisting others in trouble.
I'm not implying that this was a factor in Chicago, as it likely was not. However, if you see
an athlete in trouble, could you live with yourself if you later found out that that person was
seriously injured or worse because no one stopped to help? In the Frisch's Triathlon in
Cincinnati this year a young woman panicked during the swim, probably because the there were
alot of men from the subsequent wave passing her. As noted in the race results, a friend of
mine Mike Folan stopped in the water to offer her assistance. He calmed her down to the point
that she was able to complete the swim on her own. Mike, by the way, ended up 22nd overall,
even with the brief swim delay. If he had not stopped, who knows what may have happened. Mike
is also the same person that stopped during Springfield Ironhorse one year to aid a victim of
heatstroke. Maybe we can all learn from his actions.
Hopefully this tragedy will teach us all that life is short so live it to its fullest. More
importantly, however, don't let living life to its fullest endanger others. In fact, part of
living life to its fullest is knowing that you've made a difference in your short time here.
That can include knowing that you were there when a fellow triathlete needed you. Wouldn't you
hope for the same if you were the one in trouble.
Marty
LeePublish
As a master-aged competitor who has done maybe 30+ triathlons in recent
years...and five Chicago races...my thoughts are these:
1) First and foremost, triathletes need to be encouraged to *look out
for their own safety.* Triathlon is an assumed risk. You can ask TriFed
and race directors to do their job, but whatever they do, you are still
assuming risk when you race. It's up to you to swim wide, swim at the
back, dog-paddle to let a faster competitor pass you--whatever it
takes--to complete the race safely.
2) Second, triathletes need to *look out for other triathletes.* We
need to be encouraged to pursue safe tactics and fair play. Don't
aggressively swim over someone else. Don't cut off someone in a manner
that risks collision. Don't intentionally use elbows, knees, arms, legs
and feet to *get rid off* an annoying swimmer next to you. And if you see
someone in trouble, stop and help (as I noted several competitors were
doing for someone who "went vertical" on the run at Mrs. T's).
3) Third, race directors and Tri-Fed need to *develop safer courses.*
The primary problem with Mrs. T's is that it was too narrow from the start
on around the point. Had it been twice as wide, the congestion and
*banging* would have been dramtically cut. Anchor two or three barges in
tandom at the east end of the course start, not one parallel to the course
start...
I don't not think that the problem is with equipment or that regulation is
the way to *solve the problem.* The solution starts with all of us
*thinking about safety* and *taking personal responsiblity*...and with
intelligent course design and education.
--Lee ("Life is full of risks. Pick yours!") Crumbaugh
LeePu...@aol.com
MAX109
Thank you for expressing your concerns about my dear friend and relay team
member, John Mawdsley. We had eight families from our neighborhood at the
race, and the horror defies description (see the account in the next issue
of Inside Triathlon). Diane and the two children are managing with our
neighborhood's support along with the many letters they have received from
triathletes. Tri Fed is publishing a memorial ad with an address for
donations but here it is now if you feel inclined to help Diane, Megan,
and Matt:
John Mawdsley Memorial Scholarship Trust
c/o Suburban Bank of Barrington
333 N. Northwest Highway
Barrington, IL 60010.
Also, please jot Steve Locke at Tri Fed a note about ideas you have for
making the race safer. Brian Sullivan, Don Herron, and others on RST had
some great ideas. Our team is trying to get the size of the field limited
to a manageable number (3000), to get more space between swim waves, to
have some type of swim seeding for the 20% of the racers who are
participating in their first race, and to return to the former swim venue.
We would also like a bike course that doesn't use a pedestrian underpass
and assurance that there will be water on the run. We hope Mrs. T's will
continue (I have raced or written about it every year since 1984) and we
want to work with Tri Fed and Jan Caille to make the race competitive,
fun, and safe.
Thanks to a great triathlon community for your condolensces as well as
your great ideas.
Max McGee (Max109)