triathletes cheat at swimming
Timothy W. Kipp
Hi everyone,
I was going to call this post something more inflammatory, but couldn't
think of anything. Anyway, the title says it all. I am a competitive
swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing wetsuits for
an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
you should find another sport.
The swim already is trivialized enough (a whopping 10 minutes out of a
1.5 to 2-hour event) without this kind of nonsense. And I know the
argument - everyone else wears one, so I should wear one too, and gee
some people have faster bikes than others, etc. Well, let's get this
straight. THE USE OF WETSUITS FOR FLOTATION AND SWIMMING ASSISTANCE IS
NOT PART OF THE SPORT OF SWIMMING. US Swimming specifically prohibits
the use of wetsuits in all events, no matter what the temperature, as
does the professional marathon swimming circuit, and open-water swims
(e.g., English Channel crossings) by wetsuit-clad swimmers are not
recognized.
Pullbuoys, fins, etc. are not allowed in swimming races, and I suspect
that if someone showed up at the triathlon wearing a pair of fins
people might object. A wetsuit may to provide the same level of
assistance, but believe me it is not a trivial advantage. Developing a
good body position and body-balancing kick is one of the great
challenges of distance-freestyle swimming, and to just blow that off in
favor of using a floatie seems pretty lame to me. If you want to make
the swimming leg of the triathlon a real event, the governing bodies of
the sport need to address the wetsuit issue. Wetsuits should be
allowed only for warmth, and some maximum temperature should be set for
their use. In fact, the tri that I was in had a written rule stating
that wetsuits would only be permitted if the water temp was below 72
degrees; however, this rule quickly fell by the wayside due to extreme
whining from the wetsuit contingent.
This situation really cheapens the sport in my opinion, and should be
addressed. Tirvial swims that make up less than one-tenth of the total
course time are bad enough, without using a floatie...
Next time, maybe everyone should just get a set of water wings, or
amybe we should all wear snorkels so we won't have to bother learning
that bothersome rotary breathing.
Just my (strongly expressed) opinion,
Tim Kipp
Chaz The Tri
In article <5rkr2j$m...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, tks...@ix.netcom.com
>Hi everyone,
>I was going to call this post something more inflammatory, but couldn't
>think of anything. Anyway, the title says it all. I am a competitive
>swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
>horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing wetsuits for
>an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
>this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
>you should find another sport.
The conditions you describe imply a couple things:
1. No USAT pro athletes competed in the race, since wetsuits are not
allowed for pros over (guess) 74 degrees F.
2. 78 degrees is the upper boundary by which age group triathletes are
allowed to compete AND be elibible for awards. 84 degrees is the
absolute no wetsuit upper limit (heat exhaustion, etc.)
><snip> In fact, the tri that I was in had a written rule stating
>that wetsuits would only be permitted if the water temp was below 72
>degrees; however, this rule quickly fell by the wayside due to extreme
>whining from the wetsuit contingent.
This doesn't sound match USAT rules...was it a USAT race?
>
>This situation really cheapens the sport in my opinion, and should be
>addressed. Tirvial swims that make up less than one-tenth of the total
>course time are bad enough, without using a floatie...
>Next time, maybe everyone should just get a set of water wings, or
>amybe we should all wear snorkels so we won't have to bother learning
>that bothersome rotary breathing.
>Just my (strongly expressed) opinion,
>Tim Kipp
I'm a competive swimmer also, but you're forgetting one MAJOR fact in your
derision of triathletes. Triathlons in the 90's get the majority of their
participants from running backgrounds, a far more popular (in terms of
participation) American pastime than swimming.
Use of wetsuits were introduced initially as a safety device to help those
runner/cyclists who couldn't swim very well to at least survive the trauma of
mass wave starts - even good swimmers have a hard time in their first open
water mass start events.
While it's possible to get hit by a car on your bicycle or during the run,
the triathlon segment most likely to have problems for races not well trained
in that segment is swimming: drownings can and have occurred in mass starts.
I'll grant you that 800 yds, 78 deg make wetsuit use ludicrous, but I'll bet
any triathlete who doesn't swim well is thankful from a safety (keeping
afloat) perspective.
Triathlon is a 3 segment sport, and the rules about wetsuit use are geared
towards making it safe for everyone of all abilities, particularly our beloved
newbies.
Chaz
Ray Plotecia
If you just did your first triathlon, then you're probably unaware of the
battles that went on for the last 10 years in the sport re:
wetsuits/no-wetsuits, legal temperature, distances etc. It's all been
discussed. Your whole posted argument has already been addressed. Please
go back and read the USAT rule book.
Alright, you're a great swimmer, you don't need one. We are also concerned
with participation and safety to keep racing at the grass-roots level from
withering like it has in some other sports.
You also didn't do a USAT sanctioned race. Wetsuits are forbidden above
77.9° according to our rules.
You don't like wetsuits, don't wear one. But don't EVER call your fellow
triathletes cheaters for racing under the rules as they are written.
Ray Plotecia
Timothy W. Kipp <tks...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5rkr2j$m...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>...
| Hi everyone,
|
| I was going to call this post something more inflammatory, but couldn't
| think of anything. Anyway, the title says it all. I am a competitive
| swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
| horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing wetsuits for
| an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
| this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
| you should find another sport.
|
| The swim already is trivialized enough (a whopping 10 minutes out of a
| 1.5 to 2-hour event) without this kind of nonsense. And I know the
| argument - everyone else wears one, so I should wear one too, and gee
| some people have faster bikes than others, etc. Well, let's get this
| straight. THE USE OF WETSUITS FOR FLOTATION AND SWIMMING ASSISTANCE IS
| NOT PART OF THE SPORT OF SWIMMING. US Swimming specifically prohibits
| the use of wetsuits in all events, no matter what the temperature, as
| does the professional marathon swimming circuit, and open-water swims
| (e.g., English Channel crossings) by wetsuit-clad swimmers are not
| recognized.
|
| Pullbuoys, fins, etc. are not allowed in swimming races, and I suspect
| that if someone showed up at the triathlon wearing a pair of fins
| people might object. A wetsuit may to provide the same level of
| assistance, but believe me it is not a trivial advantage. Developing a
| good body position and body-balancing kick is one of the great
| challenges of distance-freestyle swimming, and to just blow that off in
| favor of using a floatie seems pretty lame to me. If you want to make
| the swimming leg of the triathlon a real event, the governing bodies of
| the sport need to address the wetsuit issue. Wetsuits should be
| allowed only for warmth, and some maximum temperature should be set for
| their use. In fact, the tri that I was in had a written rule stating
| that wetsuits would only be permitted if the water temp was below 72
| degrees; however, this rule quickly fell by the wayside due to extreme
| whining from the wetsuit contingent.
|
Timothy W. Kipp
Ray,
Thanks for the insight - into nothing. Nothing you've said justifies
the use of wetsuits in warm water by swimmers who I happen to know
could beat me out of the water even if they weren't wearing one.
Explain to me why a guy who is a national-class swimmer would wear a
wetsuit in high-70s water? It's easy - because everyone else is
wearing one too, and why should he give up a competitive advantage?
Justify it any way you'd like - participation of weak swimmers, etc.
but the facts are plain. Good swimmers are wearing wetsuits because
they make the swim a whole lot easier. If you guys were serious about
this subject, you'd set the cutoff at some real temp (try 65 F - I'm
pretty thin, and I can stay warm for an hour at that temp), not 77.9!
As for calling my fellow triathletes cheaters, hey, I'm no triathlete,
I'm a swimmer, and I wouldn't choose to be a triathlete after what I
saw this weekend. As for cheating, I've been an athlete for a long
time, and I know cheating when I see it, and triathletes under the
current approach are cheating in the swim. Don't EVER tell me what to
call anyone.
Think about it a little before you pat yourself on the back for the
great race you had, next time. Did you need that wetsuit? How about
those water wings?
TK
In <01bc9c39$2935ec80$ee0b...@imagectl.clark.net.clark.net> "Ray
Tricia Richter
> I am a competitive
> swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
> horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing wetsuits for
> an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
> this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
> you should find another sport.
Ummm..... Timothy, I understand your dismay, but on the other hand, your
self-righteous indignation is a trifle, shall we say, off-putting. It
might be a good idea to get a little more experience in the sport before
casting such heavy judgments about. It's a little impetuous to do one
triathlon and proceed to tell a bunch of folks with a lot more tri
experience "maybe you should find another sport."
For myself, I'm indifferent on the wetsuit issue. I'd be perfectly happy
if they banned the things, but as long as they're not going to do that,
I'm not going to give my competition a few free minutes by not wearing
mine (although I have eschewed the neoprene at a few races just 'cause I
didn't want to hassle with it). I understand the frustration of the
strong swimmers with the wetsuit issue, but I also understand the myriad
of reasons for allowing wetsuits in tris.
>
> The swim already is trivialized enough (a whopping 10 minutes out of a
> 1.5 to 2-hour event) without this kind of nonsense. And I know the
> argument - everyone else wears one, so I should wear one too, and gee
> some people have faster bikes than others, etc. Well, let's get this
> straight. THE USE OF WETSUITS FOR FLOTATION AND SWIMMING ASSISTANCE IS
> NOT PART OF THE SPORT OF SWIMMING. US Swimming specifically prohibits
> the use of wetsuits in all events, no matter what the temperature, as
> does the professional marathon swimming circuit, and open-water swims
> (e.g., English Channel crossings) by wetsuit-clad swimmers are not
> recognized.
>
Good for US Swimming, but Tim, triathlon is NOT the sport of swimming. It
is its own sport, with its own rules. Just as it is NOT the sport of
cycling. Swimmers have been bitching forever about the inequities of the
swim distances in triathlon, but they fail to realize that triathlon isn't
a simple conglomeration of three sports----it is a sport all its own, with
an established structure on which athletes focus as a time trial. The
point is not to make the distances in the three sports equitable; rather,
the point is to take the given distances and cover all three as fast as
possible, that's it.
> If you want to make
> the swimming leg of the triathlon a real event, the governing bodies of
> the sport need to address the wetsuit issue. Wetsuits should be
> allowed only for warmth, and some maximum temperature should be set for
> their use.
This has been done. Check the USAT rule book.
> In fact, the tri that I was in had a written rule stating
> that wetsuits would only be permitted if the water temp was below 72
> degrees; however, this rule quickly fell by the wayside due to extreme
> whining from the wetsuit contingent.
That's unfortunate, I agree. Whiners in general should shut up and learn
to play by the rules as set forth, rather than bitching to get the rules
changes to their benefit.
>
> This situation really cheapens the sport in my opinion, and should be
> addressed. Tirvial swims that make up less than one-tenth of the total
> course time are bad enough, without using a floatie...
>
> Next time, maybe everyone should just get a set of water wings, or
> amybe we should all wear snorkels so we won't have to bother learning
> that bothersome rotary breathing.
Believe it or not, I actually saw one woman at Vineman on Saturday with a
snorkel and mask ready to start the swim! She obviously would not be
competing for a podium spot (she'd be DQed), but if that snorkel enabled
her to be out there DOING the event, more power to her. And I think
that's a large part of the point in allowing wetsuits in triathlon---for
an awful lot of folks, the swim is a scary part of the race, and if a
wetsuit makes it possible for them to get out there and participate it
can't be a completely bad thing.
Now at the competitive level, of course, it's another matter entirely.
And I'd really be just as happy if they DID lower the temperature at which
wetsuits are allowed; 70 degrees would be fine by me. I actually agree
with you in principal to an extent, Tim. What I take exception to is your
dissing the sport in general because one aspect of it displeases you. All
I ask is that you try to see the bigger picture. And don't give up on
triathlon! It's got so much to offer, give it a chance.
Tri-Baby
_
- o
' - __o - </\_
` ' - \< - __/\
/\o_ - (()) (()) - /
^^^^^^^^^^
"REAL Triathletes don't draft."
*** Ironman Canada 1997 ***
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie
RLChance
>In article <5rkr2j$m...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, tks...@ix.netcom.com
>(Timothy W. Kipp) wrote:
>
>> I am a competitive
>> swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
>> horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing
>wetsuits for
>> an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
>> this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
>> you should find another sport.
>
>
I have a problem with this too. I am a strong swimmer and horrible runner.
I wish they would legalize those energy storing running shoes. At any
rate, I feel wetsuits should be allowed but, for those who are
competitive, wearers should not be eligible for awards unless of course
the water temp is below 78 degreees.
The problem is in a big race how do you identify the wetsuit wearer from
the naked. I guess we could leave this up to the panel.
Ray Plotecia
You just don't get it, do you? Go back and read my first response to you.
What's so hard for you to understand. It's taken 10 years to develop rules
which satisfy problems and conditions beyond your individual needs. We
have rules. They are what we race under. They are ours.
I agree with your frustration, but we have argued this stuff until we've
all become sick of it. While you can tolerate water to 70°, a 65 year old
guy cannot. The rules must encompass the whole population of triathletes.
We have to live with compromises. They're not bad. And they keep our
sport alive and well.
Since you are not a triathlete by your own admission -- have a nice life.
Meanwhile, don't EVER call us triathletes cheaters.
--
Ray Plotecia
Timothy W. Kipp <tks...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5rl7j5$3...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>...
| >| think of anything. Anyway, the title says it all. I am a
| competitive
| >| swimmer, did my first triathlon this weekend, and was shocked and
| >| horrified to find all the top swimmer/triathletes wearing wetsuits
| for
| >| an 800-yard swim in 78-degree water. There is simply no excuse for
| >| this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
| >| you should find another sport.
| >|
| >| The swim already is trivialized enough (a whopping 10 minutes out of
| a
| >| 1.5 to 2-hour event) without this kind of nonsense. And I know the
| >| argument - everyone else wears one, so I should wear one too, and
| gee
| >| some people have faster bikes than others, etc. Well, let's get
| this
| >| straight. THE USE OF WETSUITS FOR FLOTATION AND SWIMMING ASSISTANCE
| IS
| >| NOT PART OF THE SPORT OF SWIMMING. US Swimming specifically
| prohibits
| >| the use of wetsuits in all events, no matter what the temperature,
| as
| >| does the professional marathon swimming circuit, and open-water
| swims
| >| (e.g., English Channel crossings) by wetsuit-clad swimmers are not
| >| recognized.
| >|
| >| Pullbuoys, fins, etc. are not allowed in swimming races, and I
| suspect
| >| that if someone showed up at the triathlon wearing a pair of fins
| >| people might object. A wetsuit may to provide the same level of
| >| assistance, but believe me it is not a trivial advantage.
| Developing a
| >| good body position and body-balancing kick is one of the great
| >| challenges of distance-freestyle swimming, and to just blow that off
| in
| >| favor of using a floatie seems pretty lame to me. If you want to
| make
| >| the swimming leg of the triathlon a real event, the governing bodies
| of
| >| the sport need to address the wetsuit issue. Wetsuits should be
| >| allowed only for warmth, and some maximum temperature should be set
| for
| >| their use. In fact, the tri that I was in had a written rule
| stating
| >| that wetsuits would only be permitted if the water temp was below 72
| >| degrees; however, this rule quickly fell by the wayside due to
| extreme
| >| whining from the wetsuit contingent.
| >|
| >| This situation really cheapens the sport in my opinion, and should
| be
| >| addressed. Tirvial swims that make up less than one-tenth of the
| total
| >| course time are bad enough, without using a floatie...
| >|
| >| Next time, maybe everyone should just get a set of water wings, or
| >| amybe we should all wear snorkels so we won't have to bother
| learning
| >| that bothersome rotary breathing.
| >|
Mike Carey
good points, but the sport is triathlon, not swimming..most participants
are not competitive swimmers. my suggestion? deal with it or follow the
advice on the attached .wav file.
begin 600 waawaax.wav
<encoded_portion_removed>
-?7]^?GY^?G]_?WZ @(!^
`
end
Baroody
Tim,
I agree totally with you. I too am a swimmer and when I first started t
he sport I refused to wear a wetsuit. But in the overall, it didnt help
my finish. When I started to wear one, I clearly beat most people out of
the water. I too am a poor runner. Wish I could get some device to make
me go faster there. The swim is not in proportion with the rest of the
race. But you will never see a longer swim in this sport. Too many
runners........guess Ill just keep working at my biking.
Timothy W. Kipp
Ray,
I get it just fine - many top competitors in YOUR sport are taking what
I would call a very liberal aspect of the rules, intended to benefit
the weaker, newer, and possibly older swimmers, and using it to their
advantage. GET THIS - the people to whom I am referring absolutely
don't need a wetsuit for warmth, it is strictly a swimming aid, and yet
they have the BALLS to get out of the water and brag about their swim
time. This doesn't bother you at all? Sure sounds like chea... oops
sorry I'm not allowed to use that word. Bending the rules greatly to
their advantage?
As for my involvement in triathlon - you're right, I'll probably never
post to this group again, so I appreciate you wishing me a nice life,
and I wish the same to you. My post merely expressed my frustration
with what I saw and still see as an unfair situation - within the rules
or not. If I got under the skin of a few newsgroup readers who are
practicing this form of "swimming" (and I use the term very loosely),
then I am happier for it....
Regards,
TK
In <01bc9c4a$d1e3a000$ee0b...@imagectl.clark.net.clark.net> "Ray
tria...@ibl.bm
Gord Woolley
Timothy W. Kipp wrote:
>
> THE USE OF WETSUITS FOR FLOTATION AND SWIMMING ASSISTANCE IS
> NOT PART OF THE SPORT OF SWIMMING.
Well, stick to swimming then. No one asked you to participate.
Have a nice day!
Mario Illgen
>time, and I know cheating when I see it, and triathletes under the
>current approach are cheating in the swim.
>
I just can't see it here... Next time you could argue they are cheating
because the swim is 1450m instead of 1500. The goal is to complete the
distance as fast as possible within the rules and wetsuits are within
the rules. It gets worser for you, we have rules here were a wetsuit is
mandatory below a certain water temperature.
>Don't EVER tell me what to call anyone.
>
No need to shout...
Ciao, Mario
--
Mario Illgen, TU Chemnitz-Zwickau
"I laughed in the mirror for the first time in a year..."
Tim Iverson
In article <33DE4E...@ctron.com>, Dean Ouellette <de...@ctron.com> wrote:
|> Think about it a little before you pat yourself on the back for the
|> great race you had, next time. Did you need that wetsuit? How about
|> those water wings?
|>
|> TK
|
Yup, but he's right. I need my wetsuit the way Linus needs his blanket
and I'm just as likely to give it up, too!
- Tim Iverson
ive...@lionheart.nospam.com
Dean Ouellette
>
> Think about it a little before you pat yourself on the back for the
> great race you had, next time. Did you need that wetsuit? How about
> those water wings?
>
> TK
Sounds to me like someone had a bad race and needs an excuse.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dean Ouellette
Leukemia Society of America TEAM IN TRAINING. Running a marathon
for a cure, ask how you can help cure Leukemia and related cancers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Carey
one question for you Tim-
when you race in swimming, do you wear loose, baggy shorts, or do you wear
a speedo type suit? do you shave down for big races? do you start the race
from starting blocks when allowed to?
if so, arent these just ways of using technology to go faster? think about
it.
Timothy W. Kipp <tks...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5rlefa$1...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
Peter Priolo
Timothy W. Kipp wrote:
---snipped--- please read original post
Well Tim:
I was a very strong swimmer in high school and college, and I'm
still blowing away people in the water (52:30 in Ironman Canada last
year). Yes wet suits gain advantage to the weaker swimmers, but not
that much. If they still don't know the techniques, they won't go far
anyway.
The point is that as people from a cycling (drafting issue) and
running (not easy running after bike) background have to come to grips
with triathlon as a completely different sport, so do swimmers with
the wetsuit issue.
A little history here. In the 92 National Champs in Cleveland (is
the year right?), in which I was a part of, the water was about 73
degrees. Since the wetsuit cutoff point was 72 at the time, we were
not allowed to wear the wetsuits. To make a long story short, some of
the slower swimmers had to stop due to hypothermia, a very unfortunate
thing.
The argument for raising the temp became a big issue for a year
afterward. VERY BIG. After some time, they decided to raise the
wetsuit temp to 78 degrees, in which I feel is appropriate.
I did fine that year, but that's because I swam fast. In forming
your opinions here, you have to take into account all the other people
involved with the sport, even the slower ones, not just you. Remember,
the rules that have been forged with this sport is provided with the
safety of EVERYONE in mind, from the pros to the back-of-the-packers,
and everyone involved has to learn to deal with it, even if it is to
your disadvantage.
Just my 2 cents on the matter
"Iron" Pete Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
---Countdown: 26 days until D-Day!!!
***please send comments to iron...@aol.com
Karl Edmark
Sounds to me like Mr. Kipp did not have a very good race. Care to share
your splits with us, Tim??
Ka...@msn.com
"Life's a brick"
"Drafting is not a four letter word"
Timothy W. Kipp wrote in article <5rlefa$1...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
SequoiaSoft Support
> Believe it or not, I actually saw one woman at Vineman on Saturday with a
> snorkel and mask ready to start the swim! She obviously would not be
> competing for a podium spot (she'd be DQed), but if that snorkel enabled
> her to be out there DOING the event, more power to her. And I think
> that's a large part of the point in allowing wetsuits in triathlon---for
> an awful lot of folks, the swim is a scary part of the race, and if a
> wetsuit makes it possible for them to get out there and participate it
> can't be a completely bad thing.
I missed the woman with the snorkel on saturday, but I agree with Tricia.
One of the very nice, and perhaps most important aspects of the sport of
triathlon is that it provides a format in which pro, elite, and
recreational
athletes can all compete on the same course, and to some degree, together.
There's something very special about knowing you did the same course as
Paula Newby Fraser or Scott Tinley, and being able to compare your time
against theirs.
I am (sort of) preparing for Ironman Canada next month, and have only
been swimming about once a month this season. Weekend before last
was the 29th annual "Seal Beach Rough Water Swim", which has a 10-mile,
3-mile, and a 1-mile event. Being a Seal Beach resident, I had wanted to
do that 3-miler for years, and with IMC looming, I figured I'd go for it,
and
just kind of "see where I stand" with my swimming. And of course, there
was
no way I was going to do that swim sans wetsuit! Given my lack of
preparation,
it was probably foolish even to do it with the wetsuit, but that's another
story.
I did notice that there were only 1 or 2 other people with wetsuits on, and
I
also did hear some "comments" made by other athletes about the wetsuit.
The
rules of the competition were quite clear that wetsuits were not allowed --
to to win or place. With those swimmers that actually voiced their
opinion
to my face, I was quick to point out that "there's no chance of me getting
near
the front!", and that unlike most of the other competitors, I was not a
"real"
swimmer. As soon as I acknowledged that, these couple of swimmers were
comfortable enough to tell me their "jokes" about triathlete swimmers. ;-)
Without that wetsuit I would not have even considered doing that swim.
With
it, I now feel pretty good about my chances for survival at IMC next month.
Who
cares what the real swimmers think. My 3 mile time, by the way was 1:37,
which is about the same pace as my '95 Ironman Hawaii swim time of 1:17
(without a wetsuit), for which I actually trained. Can you say slooooow?
By the way Tricia, I saw you at the awards ceremony at Vineman on Saturday
congratulations on your 2nd place finish!!
--Todd Robertson
GARLICDUDE
In article <01bc9c6a$5bc5fe20$662b...@Primenet.primenet.com>, "Mike
Carey" <mca...@primenet.com> writes:
>one question for you Tim-
>
>when you race in swimming, do you wear loose, baggy shorts, or do you
wear
>a speedo type suit? do you shave down for big races? do you start the
race
>from starting blocks when allowed to?
>
>if so, arent these just ways of using technology to go faster? think
about
>it.
It is in our nature to want to go faster at any cost. We will use any
technology available to us to this degree. I also come from a competetive
swim background and I don't have a problem with wetsuit use. We don't
compete for the same records that swimmers do, and we won't be displacing
them at Master's meets wearin' our QR's!
Let Triathlon be triathlon and swimming be swimming.
Ray Plotecia
Peter Priolo <prio...@colpal.com> wrote in article
<33DE66...@colpal.com>...
snippage....
| A little history here. In the 92 National Champs in Cleveland (is
| the year right?), in which I was a part of, the water was about 73
| degrees. Since the wetsuit cutoff point was 72 at the time, we were
| not allowed to wear the wetsuits. To make a long story short, some of
| the slower swimmers had to stop due to hypothermia, a very unfortunate
| thing.
snippage....
Just to clear up the history a little, the water temp was actually 67°.
This, we measured independently although the race director said, "I don't
care what your rectal thermometer says." The race director said it was
76°. Dyslexia strikes anywhere, I guess.
A number of us were somewhat hypothermic, after bobbing around for 5
minutes in an open water start, and then swimming around logs and debris
for 1500 meters. This made for some wobbly bike starts as well.
While I hated the race director then, and still will never do one of his
races or visit his fair city (who me? hold a grudge?) he provided a
service by forcing the issue. We realized that we had to nail down the
wetsuit and temperature issue or risk serious problems in the future.
Now we have a nice rule that we all can live with except for Tim Kipp.
Ray Plotecia
John Rybczyk
In article <01bc9c5c$33fca190$2b2f51d1@bladerunner>, "SequoiaSoft Support"
<sup...@sequoiasoft.com> wrote:
> I am (sort of) preparing for Ironman Canada next month, and have only
> been swimming about once a month this season. Weekend before last
> was the 29th annual "Seal Beach Rough Water Swim", which has a 10-mile,
> 3-mile, and a 1-mile event. Being a Seal Beach resident, I had wanted to
> do that 3-miler for years, and with IMC looming, I figured I'd go for it,
> and
> just kind of "see where I stand" with my swimming. And of course, there
> was
> no way I was going to do that swim sans wetsuit! Given my lack of
> preparation,
> it was probably foolish even to do it with the wetsuit, but that's another
> story.
>
> --Todd Robertson
Todd, after reading your post, I can clearly see why there will
always be wetsuits and short swims in the sport of triathlons. I remeber
a post a few months back where someone was seriously suggesting that fins
be allowed: It would not shock me to see it happen, after all, it would
be safer for the poor swimmer to use fins, and it would allow more people
to participate, and that is what is most important.
John R.
Timothy W. Kipp
Hi Ray,
Since you have to get personal about this - it's not my rule, and not a
rule I have to live with. Triathletes have chosen to embrace swimming
as one of the three disciplines of their sport, yet insist on
performing this event in a manner that clearly goes against the
standards and traditions of that sport. Yet you yell "foul" when
labelled as cheater, and will go to great lengths to defend your honor
because you're operating within the rules. Well, that's fine, just
don't describe traithlon as a sport that involves swimming, because
what you're doing doesn't qualify as swimming.
You know, people who are overweight have a hard time with running, in
particular. The fact that triathlons involve running probably
discourages them from participating. Maybe you could come up with
something that would make the run easier, so that you could encourage
more participation from these folks in your sport? Maybe a little
motorized cart? But wait, then the good runners would start using them
because they wouldn't want to give up their advantage to anyone
else....and where does this get you?
BTW, there have been a few posts by triathletes supporting my position,
and several emails as well. Not everyone agrees with your perfect
rule.
What really fries me the most about the situation, Ray, is that the
swim was so nice - a beatiful lake, great water temp., a great morning
for a swim. Why not enjoy it by (1) making it long enough relative to
the other events so that it is at least enjoyable; and (2)competing on
a level playing field? Also, you seem to forget that I am referring to
good swimmers who choose to wear wetsuits but obviously don't need them
to keep warm - if you are a marginal swimmer and wear one for safety,
that's another matter. The folks at the front of the swimming pack who
take advantage of this rule are (YES, I'm going to say it, so cover
your ears if you have to) cheating!!!
Talk all you'd like, but you'll never convince me otherwise.
TK
In <01bc9cec$c27fc6a0$ee0b...@imagectl.clark.net.clark.net> "Ray
Timothy W. Kipp
John,
You mean "it would allow more runners and cyclists who really can't
swim well and don't want to put in the effort to learn" to participate.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that the essence of sports for adults
is participation and individual achievement, but if you can't do part
of the event, why trivialize it so you can pretend you did it? Worse
yet, why trivialize it and then pretend you're really good at it?
I used to do a lot of rock climbing in the late 1970s and early 1980s,
and the big push then was to "free climb" routes, i.e, using only the
avaiable natural features of the rock - no pulling on slings or pitons
or anything to aid yourself, etc. No self-respecting climber would
pull on a sling to get past a tough move and then claim that he
free-climbed the route, and those that did were correctly labeled as
cheaters. I don't see how this situation is different from top-level
triathletes who wear a wetsuit in warm water, and then go up to claim
their awards.
Unfortunately, I'm getting the strong feeling that this is the norm,
and that the only way to compete on a level playing field in a
triathlon is to invest in $200 wetsuit and wear it no matter what the
temperature.
Regards,
TK
In <ocrybc-3007...@tbuckley.cwr.lsu.edu> ocr...@lsuvm.sncc.lsu
edw...@imap1.asu.edu
I'd like to throw this little tidbit out that no one seems to have picked
up on. In a race with an 800m swim any advatage gained by the use of the
wetsuit will be nullified with the extra transition time. I even tend to
believe that the advantage gained by the wetsuit in a 1500m swim
is only marginal with the additional transition time.
Besides wearing a wetsuit is kind of fun... I can pretend I'm BATMAN!:)
Ed
J.D. Allegrucci
> this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
> you should find another sport.
Maybe YOU should find another sport. What's your problem, chill out.
Tris are suppose to be fun. If you're so damned competitive and serious
maybe something is wrong with your attitude.
Get a life.
J-D
--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
+ Jean-Didier Allegrucci - (DSD VLSI Engineering) +
+ +
+ E-mail: j...@sgi.com Phone: (415) 933-2598 +
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Peter Priolo
Tim,
As a former varsity swimmer, I know your plight. Short swims,
wetsuits in 75 degree water, etc. You've heard our side of it, for
better or for worse, but here is another side that I like to present.
The race director's side.
Swimming is a major headache when it comes to the organizers. How
all the lifeguards that are hired to monitor the swim to keep an eye
on hundreds to thousands of swimmers is close to impossible in my
book. In all, they are presented with a very tall order, making sure
no one drowns. The brightly colored swim caps helps clarify the
swimmers in the water, but that's about all. The possibilities that go
through an RD's head are enormous, "what happens if someone slips
under the water without one of the lifeguards noticing?", or, "what if
someone gets hypothermia and cannot contact the lifeguards?". These
are big questions, life-threatening questions, something that the RD
(or anyone in general) does not want to answer.
Swimming is also kept short because a lot of people have an innate
fear of the water. Not so with biking and running. How many times have
I heard some would be newbies decline to try this sport out because
"they are afraid of the swim", or, "if I can get through the swim,
then I know I can make it?"
You know why the temp was set to 78 degrees (sorry about being
vague on my "history" on the last post on this thread, but the
consequences were accurate). Yes, wetsuits have a "bad" side effect on
that they help the other competitors gain an advantage in the water. I
wear my wetsuit just to maintain whats left of my advantage in the
water, and I still come out in the front pack.
Still, I think that the better advantage of the strong swimmer over
their competitors is overrated anyway. The "swim specialists" of this
sport almost always get caught on the bike by more legitimate
contenders anyway, so I think this subject is moot.
If you really want to pursue triathlon , I would suggest you buy a
wetsuit just to keep your edge in this discipline. You might not like
it, but, hey, this is triathlon. I guarantee you will swim faster too!
"Iron Pete" Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
Countdown:25 days until D-Day!!!
*** please send comments to iron...@aol.com ***
Rick Denney
Timothy, please, please, don't close your mind. Multisport is a
compromise. Period. By definition. Very few people are completely happy
with the temperature rule that now stands for wetsuit use. But we all
agree to live with it.
Road-racing cyclists laugh at "tri-geeks" who use all manner of
equipment not allowed in road racing. Such as aerobars, for example. Did
your bike have them? Many pure cyclists would argue that those who use
aerobars are not racing, and that it changes the fundamental sport of
cycling. And don't even get me started on the drafting issue. But the
cyclists are right. It IS a different sport. Let's call it
triathloncycling. As different from bike racing as Indianapolis is from
drag racing (which, of course, both use cars).
Competitive swimmers have always complained about the swim legs not
being challenging enough. But the mere presence of a swim of any length
weeds out many wannabes who will not (literally) take the plunge.
If I had my way, the distances in triathlon would be: 100 meter swim,
75-mile bike, 400 meter run. In such a race, I still would not earn
hardware, but I would at least beat the beginners more regularly. But I
accept the distances as they are as a challenge for me to improve in my
weak sports.
So, instead of measuring the swim leg of a triathlon by the standards of
competitive swimming, just call it triathlonswimming, and place it in a
different category in your brain. It has different rules, just like
college football has different rules than the pros (but it's all still
football). Just like indoor soccer has different rules from regular
soccer (but it's all still soccer). Just like NASCAR has different rules
from Formula One (but it's all still car racing).
By the way, Webster defines cheating as "to defraud, swindle" or "to
violate rules or regulations". Wearing a wetsuit according to the rules
does not satisfy this definition. Nothing in the USAT rules states that
wetsuits are worn to merely provide body warmth, just as nothing in the
USAT rules states that aerobars are used merely to improve long-distance
comfort.
So, lighten up.
Peace.
Timothy W. Kipp wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Since you have to get personal about this - it's not my rule, and not a
> rule I have to live with. Triathletes have chosen to embrace swimming
> as one of the three disciplines of their sport, yet insist on
> performing this event in a manner that clearly goes against the
> standards and traditions of that sport. Yet you yell "foul" when
> labelled as cheater, and will go to great lengths to defend your honor
> because you're operating within the rules. Well, that's fine, just
> don't describe traithlon as a sport that involves swimming, because
> what you're doing doesn't qualify as swimming.
>
> You know, people who are overweight have a hard time with running, in
> particular. The fact that triathlons involve running probably
> discourages them from participating. Maybe you could come up with
> something that would make the run easier, so that you could encourage
> more participation from these folks in your sport? Maybe a little
> motorized cart? But wait, then the good runners would start using them
> because they wouldn't want to give up their advantage to anyone
> else....and where does this get you?
>
snippery....
> that's another matter. The folks at the front of the swimming pack who
> take advantage of this rule are (YES, I'm going to say it, so cover
> your ears if you have to) cheating!!!
>
> Talk all you'd like, but you'll never convince me otherwise.
Ah, the closed mind lives in a prison.
Timothy W. Kipp
In <33DF71...@colpal.com> Peter Priolo <prio...@colpal.com>
writes:
><good stuff snipped to save band width>
Pete,
Thanks for your interesting and enlightening posts! I guess that I do
understand the situation, don't necessarily agree with how the rule is
being implemented, but in the face of majority rule will have to learn
to live with it if I want to compete in triathlons. So should I get a
QR or Ironman wetsuit? :-)
Best of luck in the upcoming Ironman event,
TK
Barry Glading
Mornin', all,
Here we go again ! Another athlete from another sport background jumping
into triathlon without really taking the time to figure out that it is a
total sport, different from the one from where he or she came.
Road cyclists tend to think it's a bike race with a bit of swimming and
running thrown in, and start out very confused as to why they get yelled
at when they hook on to someone's wheel. Swimmers get their shorts in a
knot over the wetsuit issue, not realising the rules are in place and
that many of those racers who didn't come from a swimming background do
not have their confidence in the water. Runners -well, I don't know what
runners have to do differently - nothing, really, I guess.
So, please, re-evaluate your comments to allow for your newbie status,
reflect a little on the manner in which you have come across to a lot of
us here, and try to continue in the sport of triathlon for it's own value.
Hopefully you'll learn to abide by the rules and enter into the spirit
of it all.
Cheers
Barry
(yes, QR rules ! I am one who needs it to survive these longer water
immersions!)
Peter Priolo
Tim:
The added benefit of a wetsuit...sex symbol status. The ladies will
swoon over you dude! ;-)
"Iron Pete" Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
---Countdown: 25 days until D-Day!!!
Scott Schnitzspahn
Sorry that I'm writing this on my fiance's computer but here is my
opinion on this whole thing. I have been a competitive swimmer all of my
life even swimming on the college and national level, I have also been
active in triathlons for around five years and have been on the world
team. I KNOW that the only reason faster swimmers and those that are
fastest in the age group use wetsuits for a competative advantage. I
even broke down and got one because I was sick of people who were much
slower than I was gaining an advantage in the water or in the case of
national events the girls who were faster than I was speeding away from
me.
I am a very good cyclist (so for those of you out there that think
that swimmers are complaining about this because they get caught is not
always true) and rarly am I caught by women in the field however I am a
firm believer in what you can see you can catch. Wetsuits give the
slower swimmers that oportunity that they wouldn't have without them.
If you do not believe the people who say that FASTER swimmers use
wetsuits only for the advantage it gives them then check out the QR site,
all of the technical talk on wetsuits is not on how to make a swimmer
more bouyant, warmer, safer but on how to make them swim faster. A
hydrophobic wetsuit over a normal full suit is reported by them to give a
good swimmer a 1.5 - 2 second advantage per hundred. With just a wetsuit
on there were no numbers posted that I could find but I'm sure its at
least another 1.5 - 2 seconds which over a 1500 can equal a minute or
more. Also I know that a wetsuit tends to help men and weaker swimmers
more because it improves their body position with a lot less energy
expended. (Women are able to get a better position easier because they
have more fat around the hips)
I know that all of us want to use the top of the line equipment to
make us go faster (especially with all of the bicycle toys we have) but
it would be nice for once to see everyone competing on even ground. If
that means that we all don't wear wetsuits, have the same bikes, and
similar shoes I'm all for it. It would really prove who was the best out
there. Until then I do think so that we should not fool ourselves. I
think that the temperature on wetsuits should be somewhere between 72-75
degrees for amatures and stick to it with no acceptions (78 is what
competative swimmers in a pool consider ideal so we should be lower than
that). If the water temperature is warmer than that I have no problem
with poorer swimmers, first timers, or anyone who feels like it wearing a
wetsuit but I do not think that those people should be eligible for
awards. That would weed out those that are only using them to go faster
and for no other reason.
Until then I am not stupid I will continue to use my wetsuit.
Oh, and Also if you watched the Tour de France then I would have to say
that real cyclists do use aerobars, carbon fiber bikes, disk wheels etc.
Our sport is modeled after the individual time trial and in professional
cycling that includes all of these things as well as no drafting allowed
so maybe the roadies that you hang out with think we are doing something
wrong with the way triathlon bike racing is but if you ask Jan Ulrich or
Greg Lemond they wouldn't think so, so I think that wearing a wetsuit can
not be compared to that when open water swimmers do not use them.
Torn between using one or not
Jori Leszczynski
Myke Morgan
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970730...@general2.asu.edu>,
Well, I must disagree with you here. It does not take me more than 10 to
15 extra seconds to get out of my wetsuit. I think this could easily be
made up on even a 400m swim. Personally, 400m is approaching the lower
limit for me.
I like the batman image however.
myke
--
Tellmesomethingidontknowtellmesomethingicanusepushthebuttonconnectthegoddamndots
Erik Dube
On 30 Jul 1997, Scott Schnitzspahn wrote:
> Oh, and Also if you watched the Tour de France then I would have to say
> that real cyclists do use aerobars, carbon fiber bikes, disk wheels etc.
> Our sport is modeled after the individual time trial and in professional
> cycling that includes all of these things as well as no drafting allowed
> so maybe the roadies that you hang out with think we are doing something
> wrong with the way triathlon bike racing is but if you ask Jan Ulrich or
> Greg Lemond they wouldn't think so, so I think that wearing a wetsuit can
> not be compared to that when open water swimmers do not use them.
It wasn't so long ago that tri bars were not found in cycling.
Isn't it interesting that triathlon bars were picked up by
professional bike racers only after they had been established in the sport
of triathlon for several years. Greg did a lot to establish the bars when
he won that final time trial in 1989. Until then, cyclists thought it was
goofy and improper to use them during any real cycling contest. Now,
they all use them during time trials and even some use a form of the tri
bars during the regular stages. Even Phil on ESPN coverage reffered to
the bars as tri bars. I guess cyclists learned a couple of things from us
triathletes.
Now cyclists are using fancy time-trial bikes that I first observed
being used in triathlons. Since cyclists now use things that were
originaly found only in triathlons, are they cheaters, or have they
decided that we were right and found a better way to do things?
Erik
Scott Scholes
Tim,
I rarely post to any newsgroups. However, I couldn't help but to
respond to your ongoing conversation with Ray. It is obvious that you
are new to the sport of triathlon. This being the case, hopefully you
will keep an open mind while reading the following......
Concerning the advantage gained by wearing a wetsuit, Your logic seems
to escape me. Everyone who has ever used a wetsuit or is a
competative swimmer knows that they help you swim faster. Most also
know that they help a slower swimmer more than a faster swimmer. This
being the case, I still fail to see how anyone has an advantage when
EVERYONE is allowed to wear a wetsuit or NOBODY is allowed to wear
one. Following your logic, everyone who uses aero-bars is cheating on
the bike if one rider does not have a pair. After all, aero bars do
help less skilled and weaker cyclists more than strong cyclists. Does
this mean that Greg LeMond won the Tour De France by cheating (since
his competitors did not use aero-bars)?
As far as the water temperature is concerned, I am pleased that you
are able to swim for an hour in 65 degrees. However, triathlons have
been run in water of that temperature and problems have occurred
during the beginning of the cycling leg. For example, the Escape from
Alcatraz Triathlon added a run between the swim and bike for safety
reasons. In addition, as Ray stated, many older athletes may not be
able to endure the cold water and then continue on for an additional
hour or longer.
As far as your contention about the swim section being only one tenth
of the total time in triathlon, I refer you to Triathlete Magazine.
Several years ago, they published a article which compared the amount
of advantage gained by athletes in each respective portion of the
race. The statistics were obtained by looking at triathletes
competing in an elite race (I believe it was Leon's). What they found
was that the amount of time gained in each sport was roughly equal.
In other words, it is as easy to gain a two minute advantage in the
swim (of only 20 minutes) as it is the bike (of approx. 1 hour). This
was the case when looking at the fastest portion of athletes or the
slowest.
I think that if you had been around during the formative years of
triathlon, you would understand the reasoning behind some of the
rules. I agree with you that the specific race (800yrds 77+ degree
water) did not call for wetsuits. But, if the race director put in
the race flyer that suits were allowed, he must go with it. If you
don't wish to race in a wetsuit or against others in wetsuits, then
don't! However, don't show up to USCF race on a beach cruiser and
bitch because some other guy has Pinarello.
Scott Scholes
On 29 Jul 1997 18:57:46 GMT, tks...@ix.netcom.com (Timothy W. Kipp)
wrote:
>Ray,
Scott Schnitzspahn
Scott Scholes wrote:
>
>Concerning the advantage gained by wearing a wetsuit, Your logic seems
>to escape me. Everyone who has ever used a wetsuit or is a
>competative swimmer knows that they help you swim faster. Most also
>know that they help a slower swimmer more than a faster swimmer. This
>being the case, I still fail to see how anyone has an advantage when
>EVERYONE is allowed to wear a wetsuit or NOBODY is allowed to wear
>one.
Think about what you just said "Most also
>know that they help a slower swimmer more than a faster swimmer." This is exactly why faster swimmers do not want everyone in wetsu=
its. It does not help them as much as it helps a slower swimmer who may be faster in the other two sports. Swimmers are like every=
one else in that they do not want to give up any advantage that they have to people who have not put in the time or maybe not as nat=
ural of a swimmer as them.
"After all, aero bars do
>help less skilled and weaker cyclists more than strong cyclists."
In the case of aero bars I have to disagree I think the skilled cyclist
will go faster using them because they feel more confident in their bike
handling skills (Do you remember the first time you used aerobars my
experience was a rocky one). Also a skilled cyclist is more able to get
into an aero position and stay that way throughout the rtace whereas many
beginners and slower riders usally cannot (especially on turns).
Oh, and yes I would love a longer swim (what swimmer wouldn't) but I have
heard of research done with, I think, energy expenditure or something
comparing the three sports and at the normal ratios that I think it was
an olympic distance event the three came out pretty equal. I will have
to find out where I heard or saw this information.
Jori Leszczynski
Treemoss2
Now the swimmers are complaining about wetsuits, old story. Also they
complain about the distance.
The cyclists complain about not being allowed to draft. Same old story.
Hey, I come from a running backround. What should I complain about?
I have had to adapt to TRIATHLONS. That meant the rules as they developed
for this seperate and distinctive sport. No one say you can't go to
swimming meets or bike races - GO. But if you are in a triathlon then you
are aware of the rules. Deal with it.
I don't see the swimmers and cyclista as whiners. They are just stuck in
their primary sport mindset. Yet, something adventurous must have prompted
them to try triathlons. Something about triathlons was different or unique
that made them want to do it. We triathletes welcome you.
Come and race with us. It is a different sport. YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT. If
not, then you are free to return to your other pursuits.
We primary runners, we are adaptable. We like triathlon the way it is.
There are more of us with this backround than there are swimmers or
cyclists. Just as we still race in running races as well as triathlons,
you can do the same in your sports.
RLChance
>. I
>think that the temperature on wetsuits should be somewhere between 72-75
>degrees for amatures and stick to it with no acceptions (78 is what
>competative swimmers in a pool consider ideal so we should be lower than
>that). If the water temperature is
>warmer than that I have no problem
>with poorer swimmers, first timers, or anyone who feels like it wearing a
>wetsuit but I do not think that those people should be eligible for
>awards. That would weed out those that are only using them to go faster
>and for no other reason.
I agree with this statement. Why should we penalize the triathlete coming
from the swimming background. Wetsuits should be worn for warmth. No
other reason. If they arn't then that athlete should be excluded from
awards.
Dave Brueggen
Unless your not in shape, in which case you look like a Penguin.
Dave.
Bigger is better, except on the run.
See you in Canada (no I don't look like a Penguin.
John Rybczyk
In article <19970731164...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
tree...@aol.com (Treemoss2) wrote:
> I have had to adapt to TRIATHLONS. That meant the rules as they developed
> for this seperate and distinctive sport. No one say you can't go to
> swimming meets or bike races - GO. But if you are in a triathlon then you
> are aware of the rules. Deal with it.
>
> I don't see the swimmers and cyclista as whiners. They are just stuck in
> their primary sport mindset. Yet, something adventurous must have prompted
> them to try triathlons. Something about triathlons was different or unique
> that made them want to do it. We triathletes welcome you.
> Come and race with us. It is a different sport. YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT. If
> not, then you are free to return to your other pursuits.
I think one reason that swimmers whine about triathlons (at least it's why
I whine) is that we've seen the rules and races CHANGE over the years in
manner that does not benefit the swim leg. Many a year ago the most
common swim distance was 1.5K and I don't remember seeing too many
wetsuits (at least not where I raced). Now, of course, wetsuits are
pretty much required to be competitive and it's difficult to find a 1.5 K
swim anymore. As races have gotten shorter (a trend that I think is good
for the sport) the swim has gotten disproportionately even shorter. When
I enter a tri that has only a 300 - 500 yard swim (while the bike and run
are still 30K and 5K respectivley), I feel more like a wet biathlete than
a triathlete. How would a runner feel if the most common race distance was
a 1000 meter swim, a 30K bike and a one mile run. Of course you would you
say something, and feel sad that running was becoming less of a factor in
a sport you love and practiced for so long (and of course I would be very
happy and tell you that YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT, but you're free to return to
your other pursuits :).
John R.
Mike Tennent
tks...@ix.netcom.com (Timothy W. Kipp) wrote:
>Hi Ray,
>
>Since you have to get personal about this - it's not my rule, and not a
>rule I have to live with. Triathletes have chosen to embrace swimming
>as one of the three disciplines of their sport, yet insist on
>performing this event in a manner that clearly goes against the
>standards and traditions of that sport. Yet you yell "foul" when
>labelled as cheater, and will go to great lengths to defend your honor
>because you're operating within the rules. Well, that's fine, just
>don't describe traithlon as a sport that involves swimming, because
>what you're doing doesn't qualify as swimming.
>
Timothy, Timothy,
Just when I was about to jump in and give you a little support, you go
off the deep end.
Is the swim leg of a tri the same as one in a sanctioned swim meet?
Of course not. Does that mean it's not swimming? No.
Different flavor (and rules), yes. Just like there are slightly
different rules for biking road races, time trials, and crits. You
compete within the framework of the rules presented.
I agree that the only reason top swimmers in a tri wear a wetsuit in
less-than-frigid water is to gain an advantage. It has taken on a
rather absurd dimension. But it is legal within the rules. It's not
cheating.
Diasgree with the rules if you will, call those that use them whimps
if you will, but don't call them cheaters That's a much harsher
accusation, and an incorrect one.
BTW, I don't own one, even tho I'm a slow swimmer and it would lower
my times.
Regards,
Mike "TriBop" Tennent
Remove "nospam" for email reply
WebRunner Running Page
http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html
My Model Railroad Page
http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/srr/
Treemoss2
Hey, Tim. I m all for masks, fins, and snorkels. This would propel
swimming into the gear category like bikes ( I am serious) - why not.
There would be a tenfold improvement in development of gear. We could
increase the swim distance also.
Ray Plotecia
Tim,
There's another way for you to compete on a level playing field. Do any
race that will have water temp of 78 or higher.
No wetsuits allowed, no worries.
Might I suggest this here race called Ironman in Hawaii. They never allow
wetsuits. That should even you up with everyone else.
Regards,
--
Ray Plotecia
Timothy W. Kipp <tks...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5rnnem$j...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>...
Snippage...
Peter Priolo
Yeah, sure! I'm all for that also! I'm ready for a paddle getting
slapped on the side of my face or a fin thonking me on the head every
time at the start!
(Just joking Treemoss, but I hope the point came across) :-)
"Iron Pete" Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
---Countdown: 24 days until D-Day!!!
Joe Foster
Treemoss2 wrote:
>
> Now the swimmers are complaining about wetsuits, old story. Also they
> complain about the distance.
> The cyclists complain about not being allowed to draft. Same old story.
>
> Hey, I come from a running backround. What should I complain about?
... having to listen to the swimmers and cyclists ;-)
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Stanley Government Systems
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Chaz The Tri
In article <33E0AC...@cinternet.net>, dav...@cinternet.net wrote:
>Peter Priolo wrote:
>> Tim:
>> The added benefit of a wetsuit...sex symbol status. The ladies will
>> swoon over you dude! ;-)
>> "Iron Pete" Priolo>
>
>
>Dave.
>Bigger is better, except on the run.
>See you in Canada (no I don't look like a Penguin.
I second Pete's comment and say that I think some tri-ladies find penguins
absolutely cuddly wuddly adorable! So wetsuits it is!
Chaz
Rolf Arands
>tks...@ix.netcom.com (Timothy W. Kipp) wrote:
>>Well, that's fine, just
>>don't describe traithlon as a sport that involves swimming, because
>>what you're doing doesn't qualify as swimming.
oh, ok. noooow i get it. when i swim with the masters, when i do
lone open water swim practices, i'm not really swimming. So,
when the race directors at ironman canada "encourage" wetsuits
because of potentially cold water being turned up from the lake
bottom, what they are really doing is allowing the entire field of
1800+ athletes, including pros and swimming specialists, to cheat
through a "non-swimming" water event that is boldly called an
"ironman swim." now i get it...
thanks for clearing this up for me. i was almost fooling myself
into thinking that i was the next mark spitz. whew. thank god for
timothy with a bug up ... oh, never mind.
(lighten up timothy. it is recreation, you know!)
((capital letters deleted 'cause i didn't feel like typing them,
lest i be accused of cheating or something while typing...))
-rolf
--
Call me IronMac ...
... I tri ...
... I prefer Macintosh!
IMC '94 - 14:06:47 IMC '95 - 11:58:35 IMC '97 - 10:45:00
Rolf Arands
>Why should we penalize the triathlete coming
>from the swimming background.
Why should we penalize weaker swimmers with long swims?
The sport is a balance that allows the diverse range
of athletes to participate, each athlete with his/her own
strengths and weaknesses.
The sport is the way it is. If there ain't enough swimming
for some folks, that do an extra mile, go do swimming events.
But DAMN IT stop the freakin' whining!!!
-Rolf
Timothy W. Kipp
In <ocrybc-3107...@tbuckley.cwr.lsu.edu> ocr...@lsuvm.sncc.lsu
with the statements that triathlons are set up to runner-friendly
(although I would actually say land-friendly) and so everyone else
should just deal with it. Great response!
TK
p.s. I think people have gotten the feeling somehow that I don't like
the other sports, especially running - well I am no Bill Rodgers but I
am a 15-mile-per-week runner for the last five years so I certainly
don't mind running (middle-of the-pack finisher in the few 5ks I have
entered - 20-21 minutes). I am no bike racer though, but that's
another story.....
Just wishing the swim leg would get at least a little respect by people
who want to consider themselves three-sport athletes.
Francois Modave
5 weeks ago there was Saint-Quentin Triathlon near Paris in France,
where all the top triathletes of this area come (lessing winning twice there).
There is an Enterprise-relay the morning, and this year Frank Esposito was
there....I don't think mister Tim kipp will say that "Espo" can't swim
800y without a wetsuit...unless he can swim a 200m butterfly in less than
2'...Espo is still record holder of the 200m butterfly in 25m pool, I think...
He thought that the swim would be easy but accepted a wetsuit (water at
18 degrees celsius)...he left the water really tired and said "wow, the swim in
a triathlon is much harder than what I thought...I understand now why you
have wetsuit...you really need it if you don't wanna die..."
although we have to admit that is the starting lane is wide enough and the
water wam enough, we don't need a wetsuit...like the ITU events, like in
`Hawaii...
--
*** Any opinion expressed above is strictly my own. ***
Disclaimer: I said this. My company didn't.
ShelbyE305
Every time the issue of swim length comes up I have sat back and chuckled.
This time I figured that I would "chuckle" out loud.
It seems that most often when you hear about swim length vs. the other two
event lenghts, the swimmers bring up the Ironman distances. What is ironic
is that these were not magical distances. ALL were distances that were
being used by a certain sport as their endurance event. The swim was the
2.4 mile Waikiki rough water ocean swim established by SWIMMERS as THEIR
endurance event. The bike was the around Oahu 112 mile race established by
BIKERS as THEIR endurance event. And, of course, the run was the Honolulu
Marathon established by RUNNERS as THEIR endurance event.
What does all of this mean? Well, I believe that it says that none of the
distances were created to hamper any one sport nor were they created by
persons outside of the sport.
Just my two cents worth and thanks for letting me "chuckle" out loud.
Scott Scholes
On 31 Jul 1997 14:16:21 GMT, Scott Schnitzspahn
<schnitzs...@osu.edu> wrote:
>Scott Scholes wrote:
>>
>>Concerning the advantage gained by wearing a wetsuit, Your logic seems
>>to escape me. Everyone who has ever used a wetsuit or is a
>>competative swimmer knows that they help you swim faster. Most also
>>know that they help a slower swimmer more than a faster swimmer. This
>>being the case, I still fail to see how anyone has an advantage when
>>EVERYONE is allowed to wear a wetsuit or NOBODY is allowed to wear
>>one.
>
>Think about what you just said "Most also
>>know that they help a slower swimmer more than a faster swimmer." This is exactly why faster swimmers do not want everyone in wetsu=
>its. It does not help them as much as it helps a slower swimmer who may be faster in the other two sports. Swimmers are like every=
>one else in that they do not want to give up any advantage that they have to people who have not put in the time or maybe not as nat=
>ural of a swimmer as them.
>
>"After all, aero bars do
>>help less skilled and weaker cyclists more than strong cyclists."
>
>In the case of aero bars I have to disagree I think the skilled cyclist
>will go faster using them because they feel more confident in their bike
>handling skills (Do you remember the first time you used aerobars my
>experience was a rocky one). Also a skilled cyclist is more able to get
>into an aero position and stay that way throughout the rtace whereas many
>beginners and slower riders usally cannot (especially on turns).
>
>Oh, and yes I would love a longer swim (what swimmer wouldn't) but I have
>heard of research done with, I think, energy expenditure or something
>comparing the three sports and at the normal ratios that I think it was
>an olympic distance event the three came out pretty equal. I will have
>to find out where I heard or saw this information.
>
>Jori Leszczynski
>
Jori,
Concerning aero-bars helping cyclists-- I'm assuming that the
triathletes who are concerned about awards are capable of handling
aero-bars! And (big and) the wind drag (being that pushing the air is
the greatest obstacle in time-trialing) becomes much more similar
between experianced "roadies" and the rest of the pack. This has the
effect (in non-drafting races) of reducing the variation of speeds of
a given group of cyclists. If you have much time on a road bike (and
you probably have), imagine what the bike splits would look like
without aero-bars!
I'm not anti-swimming. And I do think that 77degrees is a bit
high for the temperature limit. However, I also (as did Ray that
responded to this post) participated in the 1992 National Triathlon
Championships in Cleveland. Believe me, that was the best argument
that I can think of for having a temperature cutoff for wetsuits. It
also goes to show that 72 degrees may be a bit low. Several
participant measured the water off the end of the dock. I heard
temperatures from 66-69 degrees. Nearly everyone was in agreement
that it was not even close to 72 degrees. I clearly remember
swallowing water as I gasped upon diving in.
I guess the problem is this, there are several factors at any
given race that have a much more profound effect upon the race than
wetsuits. I would suggest that people find races in which they are
comfortable with the rules and the course.
Scott Scholes
RLChance
I think you have missed the point. The subject is wetsuits. Not the
length of the swim. Your average triathlete swims 1.5k at least three
times a week in a pool without a wetsuit. Why once they enter a
competition must it be used? To get a competitive edge.
I used to compete in triathlons in the early 80's. No wetsuits. No special
bikes. No aerodynamic bars. Everybodys equipment was equal. The best
athlete won. Usually it was a swimmer. I know that things have changed and
wetsuits are now part of the picture but lets just use them for function
and not as flotation devices.
Suzanne "Z" or Keith
Timothy W. Kipp wrote:
>
> or not. If I got under the skin of a few newsgroup readers who are
> practicing this form of "swimming" (and I use the term very loosely),
> then I am happier for it....
well...I read this ng for info (as I have not competed yet), and I can
see the points which you have made (I'm not sure that I support wetsuits
for some events either!)...but I think that "swimming" is the act of
propelling oneself through the water. *smirk* Wetsuit or no,
triathletes are all swimming....
Z
paul germer
Way to go Ed I was going to make the same point! The transition time
lost by getting out of a wetsuit after an 800 would negate any advantage
of wearing one.
However, instead of ripping one of our own for his viewpoint. Why not
use those energies towards defending our sport to the outside world.
See my post regarding Bob Roll's interview in Winning Magazine (1st
issue)
Rolf Arands
<my post deleted>
>I think you have missed the point.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Doesn't matter. The whining is old.
Let's move on. BTW, the post to which I was replying
referred to the swim LENGTH, not wetsuits. I think you missed
the point there (although I perhaps should have excerpted
the post into mine.)
>The subject is wetsuits. Not the
>length of the swim. Your average triathlete swims 1.5k at least three
>times a week in a pool without a wetsuit. Why once they enter a
>competition must it be used? To get a competitive edge.
Well, here is the truth. I am a wuss, a wimp, whatever you
want to call it. I swim 2, maybe 3x a week in a heavy week.
I really do not want to take the time to learn how to swim
like a "true swimmer." I haven't the time or the desire to
correct the millions of mistakes I make. But the wetsuit allows
me to get rid of about half of them in a single move. I'll take
that, and carry the "wimp" label with it.
>I used to compete in triathlons in the early 80's. No wetsuits. No special
>bikes. No aerodynamic bars. Everybodys equipment was equal. The best
>athlete won. Usually it was a swimmer.
Well, very impressive. I thought all triathletes swam though.
Do you mean an athlete from a swimming background?
>I know that things have changed and
>wetsuits are now part of the picture but lets just use them for function
>and not as flotation devices.
A paradox here. Things have changed -- everyone uses wetsuits --
but let's use them for function, not flotation.
Whoa! Whew. Maybe I missed the point here, but the function
of a wetsuit IS FLOTATION for many people.
You lost me on the last point.
TGCarlson
I know a monofin swimmer who would kick ass
if the swim distance was 20 miles!
Timothy Carlson
Elizabeth Hug
>
>Tim:
>
> The added benefit of a wetsuit...sex symbol status. The ladies will
>swoon over you dude! ;-)
>
>"Iron Pete" Priolo
Oh yeah, and throw on one of those neoprene wetsuit skull cap thingys
as the piece de resistance! Ohh baby!
Sorry to disappoint anyone who thought I was gonna contribute anything
worthwhile to this discussion. I've given up, given in, sold out and
now wear my wetsuit any time they allow it. (Though not without feeling
guilty if the water is above 70 degrees...somehow it just seems fitting
punishment when I sometimes can't easily peel off the suit and end up
losing about 40 or so seconds in the transition).
-hug
RLChance
> However, instead of ripping one of our own for his viewpoint. Why not
>use those energies towards defending our sport to the outside world.
>See my post regarding Bob Roll's interview in Winning Magazine (1st
>issue)
Thats a good point but look at our sport from mountain/roadies point of
view. Bob Roll has a point. Look at all the equipment triathletes have to
buy. It can scare off a lot of potential new athletes. To an outsider it
does seem pretty geeklike an wimpy to swim in a wetsuit in warm water.
Pat Brug
paul germer wrote:
> Way to go Ed I was going to make the same point! The transition time
> lost by getting out of a wetsuit after an 800 would negate any
> advantage
> of wearing one.
>
I disagree. I swam competitively for 15 year and swam the mile on my
collegiate team. I gain a minimum of 7 seconds per 100 m while wearing
a wetsuit. Even on sprints, I only lose ~half the time advantage by
taking off the wetsuit. Even if you had an extremely slow transition
and the time advantage-loss was a push, I still think you are better off
wearing the wetsuit. Why, because I'd rather spend 20-30 seconds
recovering on land (taking the blasted thing off) then spend that same
time exercising at a high heart rate.
OBTW, I used to feel the same as you (regarding wetsuits). After doing
this for more than a decade, I've certainly changed my mind. I think
wetsuits have added a dimension of strategy and fun to the sport-- and
certainly the safety aspects can't be argued in cold water (a few years
ago I swam in a race where the water temp was 47 deg F).
The difference between the triathletes of the 90's compared with the
late 70's and early 80's is that back then you could dominate one sport
and still win. Nowadays, you need to be reasonable strong in all three
just to place. The important thing to remember it's not who's the best
swimmer or runner (sans ITU drafting formats) who wins, it's the person
who can put them all together.
Pat
--
=============================================
CST-3: Analytical Quality & Chemical Info Mgt
=============================================
W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. __-------__
Los Alamos National Lab _- -_
Group Leader, CST-3 -__ __-
\ /
internet: br...@lanl.gov | |
cis: 72410,3372 / \
-------_----------..-^--^--..-.- --^.----
---------------------------------------------
RunnSwim
j...@robocop.engr.sgi.com (J.D. Allegrucci) quotes Tim Kipp:
>> this - if you can't swim 800 yards without your flotation aid, maybe
> you should find another sport.<<
Allegrucci goes on to say:
>>Maybe YOU should find another sport. What's your problem, chill out.
Tris are suppose to be fun. If you're so damned competitive and serious
maybe something is wrong with your attitude.
Get a life.<<
Good to have a triathlete admit that the sport has been trivialized to be
about fun, rather than about serious competition in all THREE disciplines.
My first triathlon was the "Del Mar Days" triathlon in 1981. The event
was cancelled a couple years later after a post-race cycling fatality. My
second triathlon was the 2nd ever USTS event in Long Beach, CA in July,
1982. Scott Molina beat Scott Tinley and Dave Scott in the men's event
and Kathleen McCarthy beat out Julie Moss in the women's event. The
distances were:
Swim 2K, Bike 35K, run 15K.
Everyone started at once (1200 strong). No wetsuits. Decent swim distance
as a percentage of the total race. The winners all rode standard
criterion-style bikes that most people could comfortably afford, with
nothing tricked up. Decent run distance, relative to the bike. A
challenging and satisfying race. Got my picture on the bike published in
the LA Times (which no longer bothers to cover triathlons in a serious
way).
Scott Tinley always got dropped on the swim, until the day Scott Molina
first wore a full wetsuit in a particularly cold water swim day at a
triathlon north of Santa Monica (water temp was sub 58 and the race
organizers gave out little thin neoprene undershirts to those who wanted
them; Molina said he'd use his own and swam in a shocking pink full suit).
Molina blew everyone away and demonstrated the performance superiority of
a full body suit. Everyone before then had presumed that the limitation
of motion would make one go slower.
So Tinley started to wear wetsuits and could for the first time stay up
with the lead group (in the early days, the best triathletes came from
swimming backgrounds, as the swim was an important component of triathlon,
unlike today).
I hung around the tri scene for a few more years and saw the introduction
of wave starts (making the whole race of confusing melange of exactly who
is where and started when), reduction of swim distances, reduction of run
distance relative to bike, and the extreme tricking up of the bikes. I
got tired of being passed on the bike by athletes who couldn't swim
without wetsuits and who could afford better bike equipment than I wanted
to spend and then not having enough time to make it up on the run.
So 16 years later I swim masters open water (no wetsuits allowed) and run
masters track and don't do tris. So why am I spamming up this newsgroup?
Was just looking up something on de ja news when I came across Tim Kipp's
name (he's an often erudite contributor to rec.sport.swimming), which led
me here. Now I'll quietly leave.
Thanks for the memories.
- Larry Weisenthal
marty
I too am sick of whining swimmers bitching about how unfair it is to
have such short swim distances in tris. As someone who really sucks at
swimming, is a fair biker, and a decent runner, it is really starting
to piss me when I see a swimmer complaining that runners and bikers
have an unfair advantage. Despite usually being near the top in my run
splits and in the top third of bike splits in my age group, I usually
end up as a MOPer due to my poor swimming skills. So much for the
"advantage" runners supposedly have! What you won't hear is me
complaining about swimmers having an unfair advantage. Instead, I'm
there at pool working my ass off trying to improve my swim times. I
suggest those swimming whiners get their asses on the road and try to
become better bikers and runners. Frankly, I think its easier for them
to put in the miles and become faster bikers and runners than it is for
an old fart like me who has only been swimming for 3 years to learn
good swim technique (I've never been particularly good at sports that
require any degree of physical coordination).
Whew! That felt good to get that off my chest!
>
>
>
>
David Barclay
You seem to be lumping all of us age-groupers and professionals
into the same "I'm better because I have expensive equipment" category.
Instead of making these stark generalizations, perhaps you should talk to
some age group triathletes instead. Go to a smaller race and meet the
athletes, you will probably be surprised to find a high percentage of
cheap bikes, speedos, and motivation. That is the base of triathlon, and
what most people here are involved with. In the higher levels of
triathlon, there is a much greater emphasis on expensive gear, this I am
not denying. However, gear does not an athlete make. Training, hard-work,
and self-sacrifice do. We all started at the same level, worked hard, and
as we got more committed we bought more gear. Try and find a sport that
this does not apply to. I got my first wetsuit today: did I cheapen the
sport and bow to the expensive gear trend? No very likely, but I did buy a
little more comfort at IMC, which will definatly help me enjoy the
experience. I am not a professional, don't try and tell me I am
contributing to the cheapening of triathlon with this purchase. When it
all comes down to it, the average age-grouper (myself included) is racing
for his/her ownself. As far as I am concerned, that is the bottom line.
Respectfully
David Barclay
dbar...@chat.carleton.ca
IMC 1997
Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"
RLChance
> It wasn't so long ago that tri bars were not found in cycling.
> Isn't it interesting that triathlon bars were picked up by
>professional bike racers only after they had been established in the
sport
>of triathlon for several years. Greg did a lot to establish the bars
when
>he won that final time trial in 1989. Until then, cyclists thought it
was
>goofy and improper to use them during any real cycling contest. Now,
>they all use them during time trials and even some use a form of the tri
>bars during the regular stages. Even Phil on ESPN coverage reffered to
>the bars as tri bars. I guess cyclists learned a couple of things from
us
>triathletes.
> Now cyclists are using fancy time-trial bikes that I first observed
>being used in triathlons. Since cyclists now use things that were
>originaly found only in triathlons, are they cheaters, or have they
>decided that we were right and found a better way to do things?
>
> Erik
>
>
>
>
Who knows. Maybe Olympic swimmers will start wearing wetsuits?
MikeNMobil
>Who knows. Maybe Olympic swimmers will start wearing wetsuits?
I'm not sure, but haven't the women started headed in that direction with
some of the suits that they were wearing last year in Atlanta. I mean they
looked like regular suits, only because of the cut, but what about the
materials being used, any similarities. Come to think about it, weren't
some women wearing something that looked like one of the old one piece
trisuits from the early 80"s. Just a question, not a statement. Anyone out
there know for sure?
Mike Plumb
Suzanne "Z" or Keith
Tim Iverson wrote:
>
> RunnSwim <runn...@aol.com> wrote:
> |[Giant whine about the "good ol' days" elided]
> |
> |distance relative to bike, and the extreme tricking up of the bikes. I
> |got tired of being passed on the bike by athletes who couldn't swim
> |without wetsuits and who could afford better bike equipment than I wanted
> see another yuppie triathlete drive up with thousands of dollars of gear in
> the back of his Cherokee. These good folks make triathlon possible.
>
> Think about it -- sponsors are the primes source of funding for races.
> Sponsors want to make money. Pros are usually sponsored, so they're not a
> source of revenue. It's the gullible age-grouper with lots of disposable
> green that's the sponsor's natural prey.
>
> |So 16 years later I swim masters open water (no wetsuits allowed) and run
> |masters track and don't do tris.
>
> money far more than it needs another aging swimmer. Hell, the swim is just
> a warm-up anyway.
>
> - Tim Iverson
> ive...@lionheart.nospam.com
Ummm...I don't get it. :P
I think that the guy made valid points, and this post was kinda nasty.
Why would it be sooooo terrible to have a basic, no-frills race, and
have it be "sponsored" just by entry fees?
I don't have much money to spend on triathlon-ing...I find it very
discouraging and daunting that one has to have a great bike (with
"tricking"), a wetsuit (them ain't cheap either ;), and god knows what
else, just to be competitive.
If someone had a triathlon that prohibited all the "extras," I wonder
how many people would show up...
Joel Sylvester
> I think you have missed the point. The subject is wetsuits. Not the
> length of the swim. Your average triathlete swims 1.5k at least three
> times a week in a pool without a wetsuit. Why once they enter a
> competition must it be used? To get a competitive edge.
>
Nope. I wear a wetsuit to keep warm. If I get a competitive edge because of
what I regard as a safety measure, then it's only fair that everyone else
has it too. We have open water and pool based swim here in Scotland, and
guess what, the same people win each time.
In the pool, we have to start in the water (not allowed to dive in). We
usually have 5 people or so per lane, so you can draft if you want to. You
are required to let someone pass at the end of a length if they touch your
toes. How much different from a standard swimming race can you get - point
is that triathlon is a different game.
Joel
Francois Modave
Am I wrong or some guys in Atlanta did also use "women" suits???
Dave Brueggen
I remember some of the pro men (Allen?) wearing what looked like
one piece womens suit 2 years ago at Ironman. I guess having
the suit extend up eliminates drag. Sure looks funny though.
Dave
Dave Brueggen
edw...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > Ummm...I don't get it. :P
> > I think that the guy made valid points, and this post was kinda nasty.
> >
> > Why would it be sooooo terrible to have a basic, no-frills race, and
> > have it be "sponsored" just by entry fees?
> >
> > I don't have much money to spend on triathlon-ing...I find it very
> > discouraging and daunting that one has to have a great bike (with
> > "tricking"), a wetsuit (them ain't cheap either ;), and god knows what
> > else, just to be competitive.
> >
> > If someone had a triathlon that prohibited all the "extras," I wonder
> > how many people would show up...
>
> about Victor Plata winning Wild Flower Olympic on old Trek 1400. No disc
> wheels, cheap aerobar. How do you think you'd fare against an elite on
> similar steel tube bikes? My money would be on the elite...
>
> Ed
It is the motor (up to a certain point) not the bike. I went to IMH in
93 with a guy ride that same Trek 1400. Beat me by a half hour on the
bike as I remember (I ride a Trek 2200).
Also, I seem to remember some local race which had divisions for
"non-trick"
bikes a few years back. I don't think there was much interest in this.
Mostly mountain bikes and hybirds.
Dave
Bigger is Better except on the run.
Timothy W. Kipp
In <33EA08...@gate.net> "Suzanne \"Z\" or Keith" <z...@gate.net>
writes:
>I think that the guy made valid points, and this post was kinda nasty.
>
>Why would it be sooooo terrible to have a basic, no-frills race, and
>have it be "sponsored" just by entry fees?
>
>I don't have much money to spend on triathlon-ing...I find it very
>discouraging and daunting that one has to have a great bike (with
>"tricking"), a wetsuit (them ain't cheap either ;), and god knows what
>else, just to be competitive.
>
>If someone had a triathlon that prohibited all the "extras," I wonder
>how many people would show up...
Thanks for your response. I agree 1000%, I'm not interested in
spending $2,000 for a bike and $300 for a wetsuit just to be
competitive. At some level, you would hope it would be about who is
the best racer, not who has the best toys.
TK
Timothy W. Kipp
In <33EB52...@xtra.co.nz> Andrew Mundell <inn...@xtra.co.nz>
writes:
>MikeNMobil wrote:
>>
>> >Who knows. Maybe Olympic swimmers will start wearing wetsuits?
>>
>> I'm not sure, but haven't the women started headed in that direction
with
>> some of the suits that they were wearing last year in Atlanta. I
mean they
>> looked like regular suits, only because of the cut, but what about
the
>> materials being used, any similarities. Come to think about it,
weren't
>> some women wearing something that looked like one of the old one
piece
>> trisuits from the early 80"s. Just a question, not a statement.
Anyone out
>> there know for sure?
>>
>> Mike Plumb
>
now
>a few swim suits coming on to the market that perform these functions.
>Primarily, these swim suits provide hydrophobic and hydrodynamic
>advantages (as do wetsuits). However, there are some newer products
>around that also provide a buoyancy advantage.
Certainly it is true that swimmers have been trying for a long time and
will continue to try anything that will make them more hydrodynamic -
hence, the type of suit you saw Michelle Smith wearing at the '96
Olympics. With regard to enhancing buoyancy, this is news to me
(perhaps you could be more specific?), and I find it hard to believe
that swimmers are looking seriously at wearing something that would
provide anything near the type of buoyancy offered by a wetsuit. From
my perspective, the bottom line is that a wetsuit provides a tremendous
buoyancy advantage, and I can't imagine FINA or USS allowing anything
resembling a wetsuit to be used in national or international swimming
competitions, either in a pool or in open water.
I respect your right to make and market your product, which I
understand is a good one, and I appreciate the general objective nature
of your post. However, I think that the implication that swimmers are
heading in the same direction as triathletes with regard to buoyancy
assitance is completely false.
TK
>
>I have been following this wetsuit debate with great interest. From
our
>own persective right here at the coal face I have to say that we all
have
>a built in desire to better ourselves. You, the athlete, always want
to
>improve performance. We, the wetsuit manufacturers, always want to
>improve our products. Call it human nature !!
>
>As an example, the Super soft, super buoyant, super slippery neoprene
>rubbers now found in many triathlon wetsuits, effectively owe it's
>existence to people like QRMan and ourselves. These technological
>developments are now cutting edge within many water sports. Once
again,
>triathlon leads the way.
>
>As a wetsuit manufacturer, I do not think it is my place to
politically
>involve myself in this enlightening debate. But let me say this:
>Triathlon can be pround of its technological superiority. Within this
>sport, unbreakable milestones are indeed broken. The technology within
>triathlon equipment is just one more thing that pushes the sport
forward.
>And personally speaking, it gives me a real buzz to see crowds
watching
>in total awe as 1000 triathletes kit up with equipment and bikes that
>look fresh out of the 23rd century. On that note... beam me up
Scotty.
>
>Andrew Mundell
>Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits
jc251b140-T-ROEHR(AH0232)XXXX
Dave Brueggen wrote:
>
> I remember some of the pro men (Allen?) wearing what looked like
> one piece womens suit 2 years ago at Ironman. I guess having
> the suit extend up eliminates drag. Sure looks funny though.
> Dave
Jurgen Zack refered to it as the "girlie suit". Mark thrased him in the
run.
Tom Roehr "The Javanator"
tro...@interactive.net
Andrew Mundell
MikeNMobil wrote:
>
> >Who knows. Maybe Olympic swimmers will start wearing wetsuits?
>
> I'm not sure, but haven't the women started headed in that direction with
> some of the suits that they were wearing last year in Atlanta. I mean they
> looked like regular suits, only because of the cut, but what about the
> materials being used, any similarities. Come to think about it, weren't
> some women wearing something that looked like one of the old one piece
> trisuits from the early 80"s. Just a question, not a statement. Anyone out
> there know for sure?
>
> Mike Plumb
A good observation Mike, and YES you are correct. In fact, there are now
a few swim suits coming on to the market that perform these functions.
Primarily, these swim suits provide hydrophobic and hydrodynamic
advantages (as do wetsuits). However, there are some newer products
around that also provide a buoyancy advantage.
I have been following this wetsuit debate with great interest. From our
Iron Pete
I used to know somebody about 5 or 6 years ago who blew me out of the
water in runs and biathlons, but when it came to the swim, I easily can
beat him. The reason? The swim. I used to get so much of a lead on him in
the water that he couldn't take it all back in the bike and run. I was
only a neophyte back then also, where my run and bike were just
developing. He used to practice his swimming at the same pool as I did.
Anyway, to make a long story short, he got so upset that his times weren't
increasing that he left the sport entirely and moved out west so he can
try the NORBA circuit.
My feelings for the swim to be too short in triathlon is there, but
that's because I do have a strong swimming background, and I guess you can
say I have typical swimmer prejudices (I've recently upgraded my wetsuit
to that of "friend", not best friend, but "friend"), but those feelings
are tempered by the fact that it is very hard for a non-swimmer to get
those strokes down and actually go faster. I've been told that a person
needs a minimum of 1.5 years of constant swim training before he gets a
"feel" for the water. This is a minimum folks, not taking into accounts
any innate fears that might be lurking inside a persons mind that needs to
be worked on.
Even if it is the shortest event, you need to train damn long and hard for
you to go to go that "short" distance and come out with everything intact!
"Iron" Pete Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
---Countdown: 16 days until D-Day!!!
RunnSwim
To triathletes who didn't like my post:
I truly meant no disrespect. And it was more of a sigh than a whine.
As I said, I only logged onto RST on a whim, when I saw Tim Kipp's name on
de ja news. So I read it and just jotted down my thoughts on the spur of
the moment. If I'd thought about it some more, perhaps I would have
written it differently or not written at all.
Anyway, do continue to work on your swim. You'll be able to do it long
after your knees have given out. My 83 year old father was a nationally
ranked swimmer in the 30s (once within a second of the WR in the 100).
Three times after the age of 75, he quite respectably finished the 10 mile
Huntington Beach Pier to Seal Beach Pier swim in 65 degree water without a
wetsuit and with only one Speedo and latex cap, according to the USMS
swimming rules. Annually, my father, I, my brother, and my 13 and 10 year
old daughters all swim in the Seal Beach open water swim. This year, my
13 year old clocked 54 minutes for the 5K race, while I slogged home in
1:18. She swims the 1500 meters in 18 minutes long course and is the best
cross country runner in her jr high school. I think that cycling is very
dangerous for one's adolescent children, but I have a theory that roller
blading can be used to develop the quads in a growing adolescent and
prepare her/him for cycling, if she/he wants to take it up in her 20s or
later. Seems to work in speedskating (e.g. Connie Young).
My 48 year old brother and I have done a lot of ocean swimming together
(he's been accepted into the Ironman by lottery this year, after years of
trying). When I race him over 1K in the ocean with no wetsuits, I come
out 150 yards ahead. When he wears his 7mm Q Roo, he comes out 300 yards
ahead. When I "swim" in his suit, I don't need to use my legs at all; in
fact I can point my toes up to the sky and still go as fast. It feels for
all the world like paddling my surfboard, rather than like swimming. So I
agree with Tim Kipp.
But I also agree with many of you. It is your sport and not mine and I
think that everyone's sport is deserving of respect and not ridicule.
There are too many fat people in this country who have no sport at all.
- Larry
Ray Plotecia
I can't believe it. I leave for the beach for a week and when I return,
Tim, you're still at it -- with your head firmly positioned to observe your
sigmoid loop.
Is this enough? Do triathletes cheat because they use logic and intellect
while some others don't?
Is it wrong to enter a battle of wits more than half equipped?
I can't imagine FINA or USS allowing that either, but we race under USAT
rules and none other. NONE OTHER
--
Ray Plotecia
Timothy W. Kipp <tks...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5sf9ct$q...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>...
| In <33EB52...@xtra.co.nz> Andrew Mundell <inn...@xtra.co.nz>
| writes:
| >
| >MikeNMobil wrote:
| >>
| >> >Who knows. Maybe Olympic swimmers will start wearing wetsuits?
| >>
| >> I'm not sure, but haven't the women started headed in that direction
| with
| >> some of the suits that they were wearing last year in Atlanta. I
| mean they
| >> looked like regular suits, only because of the cut, but what about
| the
| >> materials being used, any similarities. Come to think about it,
| weren't
| >> some women wearing something that looked like one of the old one
| piece
| >> trisuits from the early 80"s. Just a question, not a statement.
| Anyone out
| >> there know for sure?
| >>
| >> Mike Plumb
| >
| >A good observation Mike, and YES you are correct. In fact, there are
| now
| >a few swim suits coming on to the market that perform these functions.
|
| >Primarily, these swim suits provide hydrophobic and hydrodynamic
| >advantages (as do wetsuits). However, there are some newer products
| >around that also provide a buoyancy advantage.
| Certainly it is true that swimmers have been trying for a long time and
| will continue to try anything that will make them more hydrodynamic -
| hence, the type of suit you saw Michelle Smith wearing at the '96
| Olympics. With regard to enhancing buoyancy, this is news to me
| (perhaps you could be more specific?), and I find it hard to believe
| that swimmers are looking seriously at wearing something that would
| provide anything near the type of buoyancy offered by a wetsuit. From
| my perspective, the bottom line is that a wetsuit provides a tremendous
| buoyancy advantage, and I can't imagine FINA or USS allowing anything
| resembling a wetsuit to be used in national or international swimming
| competitions, either in a pool or in open water.
|
| I respect your right to make and market your product, which I
| understand is a good one, and I appreciate the general objective nature
| of your post. However, I think that the implication that swimmers are
| heading in the same direction as triathletes with regard to buoyancy
| assitance is completely false.
|
| TK
|
|
| >
Robert R.
Someone made the point that triathlon should not be bound by the rules
of the governing bodies of it's individual disciplines swim (USS) bike
(UCF) run TAC). Triathlon is a legitimate equal to these "other
sports". It is good to see that triathletes are beginning to accept
that they are not swimmers, cyclists, or runners.
Now, as Pee-Wee Herman would say, "How come everybody alsways has a big
but(t)?" : )
BUT... All multisport events periodically review the weight of each
discipline with respect to judging their results. Decathlon has done
this a couple of times in my lifetime alone.
I would love to see more emphasis placed on the swim portion (longer
swims, no wetsuits); that is not going to happen. I have accepted that
I will be less competitive in triathlon, due in a small way, to the way
in which it defines activity swimming.
There are also cyclists who have worked years on strength AND
flexibility. We seem to hear far less whining from them regarding a
return to crit-style bars. By the way, such a change would also improve
my finishing rank.
As an afterthought, I look at the big scheme of things: I am nowhere
near the finishing rank in which a wetsuit, double-swim distance, or
non-aerobar policy has or will cost me an age group victory - - no damn
way! ; ) I just remember a sport that I was competing in, since 1983.
We took pride in the perception that we were tough as nails, not
pampered, and not pretty. These days, you'd be hard pressed to find
trathletes who don't spend more on their haircuts than they do for their
beer! ; )
rsqu...@bellsouth.net
formerly "rodr...@aol.com"
--
Anti-SPAM: Remove the "NOSPAM" (rsqu...@bellsouth.net)from my address
when REPLYING!
Steve Pells
Robert R. wrote:
> These days, you'd be hard pressed to find
> trathletes who don't spend more on their haircuts than they do for their
> beer! ; )
>
Hey dude, careful what you say!
I drank more than the cost of a haircut just on Saturday night.
(Kennebunk Fire Dept triathlon 8:30am yesterday morning...(: )
Of course, some would point out I have a lousy haircut and am
a rotten triathete, but that's not the point here, ok?
Best
Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Pells | MGH Cancer Center, | pe...@helix.mgh.harvard.edu
| Building 149, |
| 13th Street, | Tel: (617) 726-7800
| Charlestown, MA 02129 | Fax: (617) 726-7808
---------------------------------------------------------------------
D1 F2 9C 38 18 90 9C EB 43 BE BD 02 93 49 02 F8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Plotecia
Back in the early 80's Fletch Hanks put on the Equilateral Triathlon as
part of his Oxford International. Oxford was 2.4s, 20 run, 50 bike
(approx.).
To achieve parity, he did the Equilateral which had about a 5 mile swim to
make the time spent in the water equivalent to the bike and run.
Well, Molina won it after drafting Eney Jones for the whole swim. Not too
many people signed up for the Equilateral. This indicated that not too
many in the sport really wanted that kind of parity. Maybe we should try
it again, but I think the participation would be the same.
--
Ray Plotecia
Robert R. <rsqu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<33EDDA...@bellsouth.net>...
| Someone made the point that triathlon should not be bound by the rules
| of the governing bodies of it's individual disciplines swim (USS) bike
| (UCF) run TAC). Triathlon is a legitimate equal to these "other
| sports". It is good to see that triathletes are beginning to accept
| that they are not swimmers, cyclists, or runners.
|
| Now, as Pee-Wee Herman would say, "How come everybody alsways has a big
| but(t)?" : )
|
| BUT... All multisport events periodically review the weight of each
| discipline with respect to judging their results. Decathlon has done
| this a couple of times in my lifetime alone.
|
| I would love to see more emphasis placed on the swim portion (longer
| swims, no wetsuits); that is not going to happen. I have accepted that
| I will be less competitive in triathlon, due in a small way, to the way
| in which it defines activity swimming.
|
| There are also cyclists who have worked years on strength AND
| flexibility. We seem to hear far less whining from them regarding a
| return to crit-style bars. By the way, such a change would also improve
| my finishing rank.
|
| As an afterthought, I look at the big scheme of things: I am nowhere
| near the finishing rank in which a wetsuit, double-swim distance, or
| non-aerobar policy has or will cost me an age group victory - - no damn
| way! ; ) I just remember a sport that I was competing in, since 1983.
| We took pride in the perception that we were tough as nails, not
| pampered, and not pretty. These days, you'd be hard pressed to find
| trathletes who don't spend more on their haircuts than they do for their
| beer! ; )
|
Peter Priolo
Ray Plotecia wrote:
>
> Back in the early 80's Fletch Hanks put on the Equilateral Triathlon as
> part of his Oxford International. Oxford was 2.4s, 20 run, 50 bike
> (approx.).
>
> To achieve parity, he did the Equilateral which had about a 5 mile swim to
> make the time spent in the water equivalent to the bike and run.
>
> Well, Molina won it after drafting Eney Jones for the whole swim. Not too
> many people signed up for the Equilateral. This indicated that not too
> many in the sport really wanted that kind of parity. Maybe we should try
> it again, but I think the participation would be the same.
>
> --
> Ray Plotecia
>
Sometimes when you go into a certain sport, you wonder why and how it
got that way. There must be some sort of reason why triathlon
developed the dimensions it has today. The no-drafting rule was
developed for the bike due to safety aspects (not to knock down the
purity of triathlon for a reason, I'm a "purist" too), and the
distances in the beginning were shortened in some races to Olympic
Distance races to incorporate as many people as possible into the
sport (many people=sponsers and money). The actaul percentages of each
of the disciplines in the sport have not changed much since its
conception. Maybe one of the reasons was the point Ray Flotecia
mentioned above, lack of participation. The reasons for the lack of
people participating in the race could be varied (fear of large swim
distance, deviation from the status quo offered in the famous races,
lack of fame, whatever), but if lack of participation is the result,
the RD who holds the race will go realisticly back to the regular
percentages.
Well, back to my opinion. A one mile swim (nearly) in Olympic Distance
races is still significant to all people in the race. Some people
mentioned that all of the winners in the race do swim off the front,
and from I observed in my 7 years of triathlon, is true. To the
beginner, 1 mile is a lot. Statistics time. I read in a brochure for a
postal swim meet that only 2% of all people can swim only 20 laps in a
25 meter pool. That's not much. And I stress to say that it is a bitch
to improve on the swim, pardon my french. It took me only 3 years on
the bike to achieve a decent 22MPH pace in half-Ironmans and only 2
years to achieve a 7 minute mile. In the swim, it has taken me all of
8 years of high-school and college swims just to be as decent to earn
an award. Now if that isn't a long time, I don't know what is. I
currently feel that thanks to my strong swimming background, my battle
for excelling in this sport when I started was 3/4 done. I hope that
all the stronger swimmers out there take a third person approach to
this sport, look at all the middle and back of packers, and newbies,
and try to understand their plight.
Another post on this thread...hmm...I thought I was finished here.
"Iron Pete" Priolo
Sub 10 hour IMC'97
---Countdown:13 days until D-Day!!!
Ray Plotecia
Peter Priolo <"ironpete"@xaol.com (remove x)> wrote in article
<5snu5s$d...@nntpserver.colpal.com>...
Snippage...
| Sometimes when you go into a certain sport, you wonder why and how it
| got that way. There must be some sort of reason why triathlon
| developed the dimensions it has today.
...Snippage
Eventually, we should write a history of how we got to be what we are.
Ironman got to be what it is because the 3 sports, Honolulu Rough
Water Swim, Oahu Around the Island Bike Race, and the Honolulu Marathon
already had their distances and were put together by Collins in that famous
beer drinking story.
Half-ironman of course came from Ironman distances.
International distance -- I'm not sure, but the Bud Light USTS race series
used it nearly exclusively and USTS was responsible for bringing most of
the country into triathlon (IMHO).
So, in the final analysis, we have beer figuring heavily in all of these
items. It is therefore thanks to beer and especially Bud Light for making
us what we are.
How's that?
--
Ray Plotecia
John Rybczyk
In article <01bca735$8530bb80$ee0b...@imagectl.clark.net.clark.net>, "Ray
Plotecia" <imag...@clark.net> wrote:
>
> Ironman got to be what it is because the 3 sports, Honolulu Rough
> Water Swim, Oahu Around the Island Bike Race, and the Honolulu Marathon
> already had their distances and were put together by Collins in that famous
> beer drinking story.
>
> Half-ironman of course came from Ironman distances.
>
> International distance -- I'm not sure, but the Bud Light USTS race series
> used it nearly exclusively and USTS was responsible for bringing most of
> the country into triathlon (IMHO).
>
> So, in the final analysis, we have beer figuring heavily in all of these
> items. It is therefore thanks to beer and especially Bud Light for making
> us what we are.
>
> How's that?
>
> --
> Ray Plotecia
I think you're on to something Ray. Triathlon training is the cornerstone
of my marginaly successful scheme to keep my beer-belly in check.
John R.