Another Alcatraz v Djok final

[Pelle Svanslös]

Do other people get to play in finals at all?

--
"And off they went, from here to there,
The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair"
-- Traditional

[Court_1]

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 2:15:45 PM UTC-4, Pelle Svanslös wrote:
> Do other people get to play in finals at all?

No. These are the only two players worth watching IMO. The others are a bunch of deadbeats with flaws in their games. Alike and Pipe are a couple of notches above the rest.

This match is the first pro tennis match I've watched in months and it's a good one!

[Court_1]

This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!

[Gracchus]

On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:35:42 PM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:

> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!

Where is this legion of Federer fanatics you're always ranting about? The only ones here saying that stuff are PWL and RzR, who hardly ever posts anyway.

[PeteWasLucky]

Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r

> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!

Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here?

Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players?
Simply because they aren't great players, correct?

Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results.

Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets.

Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger?


Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984.

https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044

Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy

And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl.






--




----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

[Court_1]

I don't necessarily mean here but everywhere on social media. They bleat on and on about how Federer past 30 was too old to compete with a five+ years younger Djokovic even though Federer was making slam finals, dominating the field outside of Djokovic, at times outplaying Djokovic in their matches, etc.

Djokovic just proved tonight that the age argument is not only incorrect but foolish and Djokovic beat a potentially all time great player who is 16 years his junior. Age is irrelevant when you continue to play as well as well as a post 30 Federer or Djokovic.

[Court_1]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 12:29:59 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> Court_1 .com> Wrote in message:r

> > This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!

> Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here?

Yes. Djokovic absolutely showed tonight that the age argument is fallacious when you're a GOAT level player.

> Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players?
> Simply because they aren't great players, correct?
>
> Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results.

No, it really isn't a variable when you're an all time great player who is as fit as Djokovic or as Federer was post age 30. A player who is disadvantaged by age wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to the bitter end and storm back to win a match the way Djokovic did tonight.

> Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets.

Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.

> Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger?

Yes. He was under intense pressure to win the CYGS. HIs loss had zero to do with his age.

> Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984.
>
> https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044
>
> Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy
>
> And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl.

As I 've said again and again, you can't compare the Lendl/Connors years to present day athletes. It's a dumb comparison. Fitness and technology have evolved.

Listen, the Federer fanatic mantra that Federer suddenly became old and decrepit at 28-30 because he was five-six years older than Djokovic is one of the most cockamamie claims I've ever heard. It's just some kind of coping mechanism that many Federer worshippers invented in order to keep the fantasy going that Federer>Djokovic.

I get it, we want a beautiful player like Federer to be the greatest and keep all the records but unfortunately reality has set in and Djokovic has shown over and over again that he is simply better. The age argument was dismantled tonight when Djokovic came back from the dead to win one of the best matches I've seen in a very long time. If only Federer had that little bit of extra mental resolve like Djokovic has.

[*skriptis]

Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:35:42 PM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!Where is this legion of Federer fanatics you're always ranting about? The only ones here saying that stuff are PWL and RzR, who hardly ever posts anyway.



Haven't you skipped watching AO 2017 final "out of fear"?

So you missed out on one of the greatest Federer's wins in his career.


Does that not qualify you as a Federer lunatic?


Same way whedr skipped Wim 2023 final. But you're worse, he could at least say since his favourite player (Federer) isn't there, he doesn't care about Wimbledon.

Plus he invented "beach" as an excuse. So he's covered himself.


What did you do?

You just said you didn't want to watch as you didn't want to see another Federer loss to Nadal???


Certainly you qualify as a big Federer maniac, and arguably ahead of whekdr.

[Whisper]

On 21/08/2023 10:35 am, Court_1 wrote:
> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!
>
>

Fed fans tell us Fed never won the USO after 2008 as he was old by then,
having reached the advanced age of 26. Djoker is a big chance of
winning it at 36.

[Whisper]

Give it up mate nobody believes you as it's pure nonsense. You can't do
what Novak did for 4 hours v 20 yr old if age is a factor. Novak
doesn't play or move like a 36 yr old, must be goat? Federer couldn't
do it as you always tell us he got old at 26.

[Whisper]

You can't do what Novak does if age is a factor. He'll be back to no.1
in the world when he wins 1 match at USO. Tennis is one of the few
physical sports where age is not a factor til about 40. PWL tells us
Fed was age impeded after age 26, but only v Novak and Nadal, he crushed
everyone else like a bug for 20 years. Something doesn't smell right in
PWL analysis?

[grif]

On 20/08/2023 19:15, Pelle Svanslös wrote:
> Do other people get to play in finals at all?
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFMVvSAeVO4

[The Iceberg]

STFU YOU CAN'T WIN A SLAM OVER 30!

[The Iceberg]

what you don't understand is that age was a YUGE factor when Fed beat Nadal in 5 sets at AO 2017, whilst Nadal was 5 years younger it was just a big fluke that his youthful inexperience gave old Fed the match!

[The Iceberg]

yes Gracchus is definitely a huge Fedfan! he's trying to deflect from his past threats of violence like all the Fedfans do and always did!!

[PeteWasLucky]

> Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.

So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes
up the next day and all of sudden he is old?

[PeteWasLucky]

*skriptis <skri...@post.t-com.hr> Wrote in message:r
> Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:35:42 PM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!Where is this legion of Federer fanatics you're always ranting about? The only ones here saying that stuff are PWL and RzR, who hardly ever posts anyway.Haven't you skipped watching AO 2017 final "out of fear"?So you missed out on one of the greatest Federer's wins in his career.Does that not qualify you as a Federer lunatic?Same way whedr skipped Wim 2023 final. But you're worse, he could at least say since his favourite player (Federer) isn't there, he doesn't care about Wimbledon. Plus he invented "beach" as an excuse. So he's covered himself.What did you do?You just said you didn't want to watch as you didn't want to see another Federer loss to Nadal???Certainly you qualify as a big Federer maniac, and arguably ahead of whekdr.-- ----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

I am not sure what happened to you.
Are you okay?
Is this all because of my smiley on your windy Wimbledon final? lol

Save your bandwidth to something useful.

[PeteWasLucky]

> Yes. He was under intense pressure to win the CYGS. HIs loss had zero to do with his age.

In that USO, he had long physical matches including his SF against zverev and this drained him in the final while in this Cinci, he won all his matches easily in this masters and he had a pass in his first match.

They allowed him to disappear from the court for ten minutes after the second set bringing Thanksgiving earlier this year.

[Whisper]

On 21/08/2023 9:53 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:
>> Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.
>
> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes
> up the next day and all of sudden he is old?
>

You're the only one harping about 'age' involving players who are still
winning slams and ranking no.1 - insane.

Listen to this guy from 12:20 mark, he knows what he's talking about;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tusRF7gUlzM


He says age is not an issue at all and in fact the younger guy is at a
disadvantage - you're on your own PWL lol : )

Just accept the truth, Roger is nowhere near as good as he is in your
fantasies : )

[TT]

*skriptis kirjoitti 21.8.2023 klo 10.48:
> Certainly you qualify as a big Federer maniac, and arguably ahead of whekdr.

I'm not saying that you're dumb... but you haven't yet figured out that
'Pete' & 'wkhedr' are the same person?

Goddamn you're dumb.

[TT]

IF age is irrelevant why Leo Dicap never dated a woman over 25?

[Gracchus]

Because mature women prefer Brie over Gouda?

[Gracchus]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 2:12:37 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

> yes Gracchus is definitely a huge Fedfan! he's trying to deflect from his past threats of violence like all the Fedfans do and always did!!

Of course I'm a Federer fan and always will be. But I won't go to insane lengths to excuse every big loss. For instance, he didn't blow multiple match points in 2019 Wimbledon final because of his age. This is different than 2012 Olympics, when clearly he only lost to Murray because of the exhausting marathon against Del Potro.

[Sawfish]

I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age
doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To the average American or Englishman the very name of anarchy causes a shudder, because it invariably conjures up a picture of a land terrorized by low-browed assassins with matted beards, carrying bombs in one hand and mugs of beer in the other. But as a matter of fact, there is no reason whatever to believe that, if all laws were abolished tomorrow, such swine would survive the day."

--H. L. Mencken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[*skriptis]

Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
> On 21/08/2023 9:53 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> > So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes> up the next day and all of sudden he is old?> You're the only one harping about 'age' involving players who are still winning slams and ranking no.1 - insane.Listen to this guy from 12:20 mark, he knows what he's talking about;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tusRF7gUlzMHe says age is not an issue at all and in fact the younger guy is at a disadvantage - you're on your own PWL lol : )Just accept the truth, Roger is nowhere near as good as he is in your fantasies : )



Look age is real, but he wants to blame age when in fact Federer isn't good enough offensive player to (consistently) beat Djokovic in important matches.

He's just too softcock in his mentality, approach etc. He is not a true offensive mindset like Sampras and Alcaraz for example. I always felt that.

In my view, Federer is a fraud if we portray him as an offensive masterclass. He can look great vs Hewitt in 2004 and Roddick but that's not the ultimate test.

It's not just Djokovic, we know that from his earlier matches with Nadal that followed similar pattern.

It's just that on very fast surfaces (YEC, indoors, grass vs young Nadal or vs old Nadal) allowed Federer to overcome it vs Nadal, and vs Djokovic it was much more close on all surfaces once Djokovic sorted out his physical issues.

So it looks like age thing, but in fact it wasn't.



It's very hard to accept that your guy is not good at doing this or that. For example Djokovic sucks in wind, he lost Wimbledon final mostly due to breeze and wind. Alcaraz should be winning clay and most of HC matches already but he's not there yet on grass. Yet he won on grass, but it's because it was windy and Djokovic's game is not suited for wind, in another words, his alternative style (for wind) is mediocre. He's just not that good.

Federer can't break through defenses of Nadal, Djokovic on a consistent basis.

That's all.


Just as Wawrinka could vs Djokovic.





--

[Pelle Svanslös]

No EPO yet.

[Sawfish]

What a lot of people here don't recognize is that age is relative to
one's own highwater mark.

Granted, age brings positive experience--or rather *can* bring positive
experience, but Kyrgios shows that this is not necessarily so--and in
tennis this mostly translates to a) the ability to read the opponent in
real time and hence how to *act* at any given time; and b) confidence,
or the belief, that you will ultimately win. These are pluses, and it's
why players have older coaches rather than simply peer confidants. They
can tap the coach for some of their experience. Whether they can
properly apply it is another story.

But age also measurably deteriorates the physical plant, and it does so
differentially according to anatomy. Hence all else may be sound but the
legs, which themselves function pretty well, but not as well as, say
five years ago. And you cannot turn to a coach to make you younger
during a match. The most you can hope for is a conditioning coach to
help you maintain, for as long as you can, your physical abilities. And
ultimately it's a lost cause.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make Woke."

--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Sawfish]

Finally!

Someone is talking sense!

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I done created myself a monster."

--Juan Carlos Ferrero
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[PeteWasLucky]

Sawfish <sawfi...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
> On 8/20/23 9:29 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:> Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r>> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!> Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here?>> Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players?> Simply because they aren't great players, correct?>> Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results.>> Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets.>> Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger?>>> Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984.>> https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044>> Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy>> And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl.>>>>>>I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation.-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"To the average American or Englishman the very name of anarchy causes a shudder, because it invariably conjures up a picture of a land terrorized by low-browed assassins with matted beards, carrying bombs in one hand and mugs of beer in the other. But as a matter of fact, there is no reason whatever to believe that, if all laws were abolished tomorrow, such swine would survive the day."--H. L. Mencken~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Age is a factor and it's a bigger factor in individual professional sports.
Also the number of matches played over the years carry their tear and wear on the body.

Great players can use their precision play and experience to their advantage and mask any stamina and explosiveness gaps especially in three sets.

But when an old great player has to play a younger great player then it's a problem specially in five sets and coming out of previous exhausting matches.

Once Djokovic and Nadal reached 24-25 years old, and Federer is 30-31 years old, it's a different game.
Of course nadal was always great, and Djokovic took longer to find ways to get into the mix and waited for his chances as well

Combining youth and greatness, it creates big challenge for the older player to find ways to win. Choices include playing extremely aggressive game to win or lose, and before that he decided to balance his court position between forehands and backhands instead of running too much around his backhand to hit forehands.

Stating this doesn't mean I am saying Federer lost every match because he was older, but to view the later part of his career and his style of play in the right perspective.

[PeteWasLucky]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:52:55 AM UTC-4, *skriptis wrote:
> Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
> > On 21/08/2023 9:53 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> > So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes> up the next day and all of sudden he is old?> You're the only one harping about 'age' involving players who are still winning slams and ranking no.1 - insane.Listen to this guy from 12:20 mark, he knows what he's talking about;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tusRF7gUlzMHe says age is not an issue at all and in fact the younger guy is at a disadvantage - you're on your own PWL lol : )Just accept the truth, Roger is nowhere near as good as he is in your fantasies : )
>
>
>
> Look age is real, but he wants to blame age when in fact Federer isn't good enough offensive player to (consistently) beat Djokovic in important matches.
>
> He's just too softcock in his mentality, approach etc. He is not a true offensive mindset like Sampras and Alcaraz for example. I always felt that.
>
> In my view, Federer is a fraud if we portray him as an offensive masterclass. He can look great vs Hewitt in 2004 and Roddick but that's not the ultimate test.

https://youtu.be/FYdy7MsG4C8?si=OuTzXrKfTDluvS3J

[changj...@gmail.com]

You know that what matters is the content and logic of a statement instead of who says it and why he/she says it. If a thing is very serious or critical to me, I will absolutely pay attention to what my enemies say, NOT what my friends say (my parents will say the same as my enemies, you know why ?)
Back to age issue here, Whekdr/PWL put very coherently in another post that within a GOAT group of three (meaning same caliber), 6 years difference is huge, especially after 30 years. Isn't it a basic fact and common sense ? you really have to argue ? You are an open/ honest Djok fan instead of a secret Novak-crash fan who is also emperor new clothes type hallucinating that people appreciate the fake objective comments, so you should know that only content and logic of statements matter, if you argue a thing seriously.
Some side notes: I put Federer's decline from absolute peak around 2009 us open time because at the beginning of the final match John MacEnroe talked casually that Delpo has an edge on timing as he did first match Saturday and Younger. John was a talented professional player himself and his nature words/intuition was a good reference for the headache question on what age a player starts going downhill. I am sure that had Fed been 25 at the time, he would not have said that. Also from his words, Super Saturday form is one of factor to the final result in a close match, a debate of many open final results such as Sampras vs Hewitt etc. Here this factor was totally discard simply because this would favor Federer in the sense of similar age "excuses" because his us open wins happened at his heydays(young) and he had less time to the benefit of the changed format in current open that Nadal and Djok are enjoying). When the age decline varies from person to person, John's words give a good average estimate and should be more credible than most posters here because he was personally there in his pro-life.

In one of Fed's final Wimbledon lose to Djok in 5 sets (earlier than 2019 mind you), Whisper was the first one to post (you guys online wiz should be easy to recover his posts) that Fed is old, so hard to hold the form for 5 sets, why he was so "generous" to tell the truth ? It's because he got instant gratification that Fed lost Wimbledon, just as a match winner almost always gives graceful speech of his opponent. Soon Whisper changed the tone once people still talked Fed as goat like always. I like Whisper because he is genuine Pete's fan (not a secret pete-crash, emperor new clothes type) with clear pro-sampras, anti-Fed agenda and fun to argue with. You may ask me why his agenda matters because we are supposed to only judge the contents of his statements ? The answer is his inconsistency and even contradictory from one day to another, when that happens, it's time to check the guy's agenda. On the other hand PWL is consistent and logic coherent over years, no secret crash, no pretending objective and new clothes type hallucinating that people think he is smart, so it suffices to comment on the points of his posts.

BTW Alcaraz is not yet in that exclusive goat group yet, he must show results (not just promising) with persistence and luck of long pro-life to get there. He seems struggling in clean matches in US open season, from the last open until the end of this cinci with all three sets. A bit odd that Djok was lying on ground and ripped shirt to celebrate. Seems to lose aura of a king or maybe he knows that the kid is improving in an alarming speed. Hope they will meet in open final.

[Court_1]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.

> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes
> up the next day and all of sudden he is old?

Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are! But, 1)he's compensated for some normal decline by becoming better in other areas and 2) he's obsessed with his fitness and moves incredibly well still. You can't compare Djokovic's and Federer's age experiences with great players from the past like McEnroe, Lendl, Connors. Things are completely different and Djokovic and Federer are GOAT level players.

He can't be too old if he was on his way to a CYGS until he lost the final to Alcaraz at Wimbledon in a tight match which could have gone either way! He's competing point for point with a 20 year old great player! All their matches have been dog fights.

[Court_1]

Yes, Gil Gross is very good and I agree with his age analysis.

[Court_1]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, Sawfish wrote:
> On 8/20/23 9:29 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote:

> > Court_1 ..Wrote in message:r

> >> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!
> > Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here?
> >
> > Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players?
> > Simply because they aren't great players, correct?
> >
> > Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results.
> >
> > Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets.
> >
> > Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger?
> >
> >
> > Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984.
> >
> > https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044
> >
> > Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy
> >
> > And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age
> doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation.

You must be projecting, grandpa! I never said age doesn't matter at all. I said you simply can't use the age excuse when goat players like Federer and Djokovic were/are competing the way they did/are. Djokovic was on his way to a CYGS for goodness sake. Federer in his late 30s was winning slams and competing shot for shot with Djokovic so you can't use the age excuse in his case. You could only use it if these players were losing to nobodies in earlier rounds over and over again.

[Court_1]

Leo Dicap "dating" a woman? LOL.

[PeteWasLucky]

Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r

> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, Sawfish wrote:> On 8/20/23 9:29 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote: > > Court_1 ..Wrote in message:r > >> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older! > > Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here? > > > > Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players? > > Simply because they aren't great players, correct? > > > > Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results. > > > > Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets. > > > > Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger? > > > > > > Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984. > > > > https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044 > > > > Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy > > > > And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl. > > > > > > > > > > > >> I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age > doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation. You must be projecting, grandpa! I never said age doesn't matter at all. I said you simply can't use the age excuse when goat players like Federer and Djokovic were/are competing the way they did/are. Djokovic was on his way to a CYGS for goodness sake. Federer in his late 30s was winning slams and competing shot for shot with Djokovic so you can't use the age excuse in his case. You could only use it if these players were losing to nobodies in earlier rounds over and over again.

What does it mean "we can't discuss age, but yes they are aging"?

[Gracchus]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:39:49 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:

> > > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.

> > So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes

> > up the next day and all of sudden he is old.

> Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are!

Bullshit. I'm not.

[Gracchus]

Yeah, don't you just love that quaint euphemism?

[PeteWasLucky]

Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r

> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes > up the next day and all of sudden he is old?Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are! But, 1)he's compensated for some normal decline by becoming better in other areas and 2) he's obsessed with his fitness and moves incredibly well still. You can't compare Djokovic's and Federer's age experiences with great players from the past like McEnroe, Lendl, Connors. Things are completely different and Djokovic and Federer are GOAT level players.He can't be too old if he was on his way to a CYGS until he lost the final to Alcaraz at Wimbledon in a tight match which could have gone either way! He's competing point for point with a 20 year old great player! All their matches have been dog fights.

This generation of players could be healthier than previous generations of players, but this doesn't mean that a 36 years old professional player now is as explosive and fit as a 30 years old player.

Yes we can argue if you like that 36 years old player now is healthier than 36 years old players thirty years ago, but advancement in every field benefit all ages and won't eliminate age gaps.


--

[PeteWasLucky]

Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r

> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, Sawfish wrote:> On 8/20/23 9:29 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote: > > Court_1 ..Wrote in message:r > >> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older! > > Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here? > > > > Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players? > > Simply because they aren't great players, correct? > > > > Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results. > > > > Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets. > > > > Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger? > > > > > > Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984. > > > > https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044 > > > > Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy > > > > And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl. > > > > > > > > > > > >> I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age > doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation. You must be projecting, grandpa! I never said age doesn't matter at all. I said you simply can't use the age excuse when goat players like Federer and Djokovic were/are competing the way they did/are. Djokovic was on his way to a CYGS for goodness sake. Federer in his late 30s was winning slams and competing shot for shot with Djokovic so you can't use the age excuse in his case. You could only use it if these players were losing to nobodies in earlier rounds over and over again.

Djokovic said this in 2015 (he was 27-28 years old):

"I am at the prime of my career. I am going to use every part of this fact to stay where I am and to fight for as many major titles as possible."


Wondering, what prime means??

[PeteWasLucky]

PeteWasLucky <waleed...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
> Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, Sawfish wrote:> On 8/20/23 9:29 PM, PeteWasLucky wrote: > > Court_1 ..Wrote in message:r > >> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older! > > Djokovic wins a match against the 20 years old makes age not to be issue and brings you back here? > > > > Why don't you say the same when Djokovic beats all the other younger players? > > Simply because they aren't great players, correct? > > > > Of course age matters and is a variable with many other variables that influence the results. > > > > Alcaraz is still young and will mature by age and by losses but no one said he won't lose to Djokovic again specially in three sets. > > > > Do you think Djokovic would have lost to Medvedev in the US open final if he was five years younger? > > > > > > Take a look at this h2h below and check their age difference and tell us what started to happen at the end of 1984. > > > > https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/ivan-lendl-vs-jimmy-connors/l018/c044 > > > > Before Jimmy turned 32, their h2h was like 13-5 for Jimmy > > > > And after he turned 32 and Lendl 24 or 25, their h2h was like 0-17 for Lendl. > > > > > > > > > > > >> I find that the people who argue the loudest and most fervently that age > doesn't matter are themselves facing age with some degree of trepidation. You must be projecting, grandpa! I never said age doesn't matter at all. I said you simply can't use the age excuse when goat players like Federer and Djokovic were/are competing the way they did/are. Djokovic was on his way to a CYGS for goodness sake. Federer in his late 30s was winning slams and competing shot for shot with Djokovic so you can't use the age excuse in his case. You could only use it if these players were losing to nobodies in earlier rounds over and over again.Djokovic said this in 2015 (he was 27-28 years old):"I am at the prime of my career. I am going to use every part of this fact to stay where I am and to fight for as many major titles as possible."Wondering, what prime means??-- ----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

Federer responded to this question before Wimbledon final in 2015:

How would you characterize your rivalry with Novak? It's going to be your 42nd match against each other. How would you describe the rivalry? Do you think he's made you better? You've made him better? Is there one particular match, good reasons or bad reasons, a loss that sticks out for you from all of the matches you played?


ROGER FEDERER: Yeah, I mean, I see more of a generation of, you know, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Agassi, Henman, guys I had trouble with at the beginning. I felt they made me better a player.

Same with my generation coming up, Ferrero, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt. I was trying to hang on with them and trying to be that next wave of players making it to the top, and everyone made it to world No. 1 before me.

I think that was very motivational for me. Made me a better player. I definitely think Rafa had a big effect, as well. Had to adjust and change so many things playing against him, preparing against him, thinking about it when I was practicing. He's probably been the guy who challenged me the most with that.

Novak it's been more straightforward, my opinion. That's what I like about the rivalry. I think we both can -- I don't know how it is for him, but I feel like he doesn't need to adjust his game as much, either. I think it's just a straight shootout, and I think that's the cool thing about our rivalry. It's very athletic.

[The Iceberg]

On Monday, 21 August 2023 at 13:14:41 UTC+1, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> > Yes. He was under intense pressure to win the CYGS. HIs loss had zero to do with his age.
> In that USO, he had long physical matches including his SF against zverev and this drained him in the final while in this Cinci, he won all his matches easily in this masters and he had a pass in his first match.
>
> They allowed him to disappear from the court for ten minutes after the second set bringing Thanksgiving earlier this year.

oh are you saying he was taking drugs?

[Court_1]

If you're on here writing over-inflated essays filled with paragraph after paragraph of nonsense like some other advanced in years poster then I'll get worried. I'll think you may have some kind of dementia. :)

[Court_1]

He's probably never seen a vagina up close in his life or if he has, he was on some kind of wild coke binge where anything goes. His preference is another matter.

[The Iceberg]

this is obviously a YUGE Fedfan contradiction (think technically it what they call an oxymoron) to try to deflect from Murray being better than Fed!!!!!!

[Whisper]

On 22/08/2023 12:52 am, *skriptis wrote:
> Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
>> On 21/08/2023 9:53 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> > So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes> up the next day and all of sudden he is old?> You're the only one harping about 'age' involving players who are still winning slams and ranking no.1 - insane.Listen to this guy from 12:20 mark, he knows what he's talking about;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tusRF7gUlzMHe says age is not an issue at all and in fact the younger guy is at a disadvantage - you're on your own PWL lol : )Just accept the truth, Roger is nowhere near as good as he is in your fantasies : )
>
>
>
> Look age is real, but he wants to blame age when in fact Federer isn't good enough offensive player to (consistently) beat Djokovic in important matches.
>

Everyone knows age is real, and you can argue it's an excuse. The only
problem is there are disadvantages with youth, so you can argue Alcaraz
lost to Novak at FO due to age disadvantage, ie didn't know how to
handle the tense situation, lack of experience etc. So either we have
an excuse for every single loss, or no excuse. Imo there are zero
excuses for anybody. If you take the court you are fit to play and
expect to win. I give no excuse to any player, so irks me when fanboys
suggest only their guy is allowed excuses. It's very gay.

[The Iceberg]

everyone seems to have forgotten this 3 set match in Cincinnatti went on for nearly 4 hours too!

[The Iceberg]

YES me neither!!!

[The Iceberg]

possibly it mean his physical best, it sound different to being "at peak" cos Djoker was "at peak" when he was 1 match away from the CYGS(you literally cannot define peak as being anything else in this case - won previous 3 slams World #1 etc that's being THE PEAKEST tennis player) like how Fed was "at peak" until Wimbledon 2019!

[Whisper]

So why don't you say Connors is better than Borg and McEnroe and Lendl?
He's a lot older than all of them and nearly won calendar slam in 1974
at 21. Obviosly he only won less slams due to age.

[Whisper]

It means the obvious, he was in his physical prime, not necessarily his
tennis prime. Duh.

[The Iceberg]

errrm haven't you seen his ex-girlfriend list? after Titanic you prob queued up to meet him!

[Whisper]

Federer said he was a better player at 34 than 24, said he could teach
that 'young punk a thing or 2'.

[TT]

For a second I thought you were talking about me. I have! I have!

As for Leo, surely all these beauties weren't 'bears'...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCRc8k7VQAI10tX?format=jpg

...I have to give Leo points for dumping Bar Refaeli at 25 though... she
was then clearly past date. Man's gotta stick to his principles. :)))

[TT]

Gracchus kirjoitti 21.8.2023 klo 16.01:

> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:46:34 AM UTC-7, TT wrote:
>> Court_1 kirjoitti 21.8.2023 klo 8.22:
>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:54:02 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 5:35:42 PM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> This is why the age arguments many Federer fanatics bring out to explain Federer's losses to Djokovic are imbecilic! Djokovic is 16 years older than Alcaraz; Federer was only 5+ years older!
>>>

>>>> Where is this legion of Federer fanatics you're always ranting about? The only ones here saying that stuff are PWL and RzR, who hardly ever posts anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't necessarily mean here but everywhere on social media. They bleat on and on about how Federer past 30 was too old to compete with a five+ years younger Djokovic even though Federer was making slam finals, dominating the field outside of Djokovic, at times outplaying Djokovic in their matches, etc.
>>>
>>> Djokovic just proved tonight that the age argument is not only incorrect but foolish and Djokovic beat a potentially all time great player who is 16 years his junior. Age is irrelevant when you continue to play as well as well as a post 30 Federer or Djokovic.
>

>> IF age is irrelevant why Leo Dicap never dated a woman over 25?
>

> Because mature women prefer Brie over Gouda?

:)

Here's a picture I found of Leo and his date, just for you!

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Leonardo-DiCaprio-Dating-History-Bridget-Hall.jpg

[TT]

TT kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 12.49:
> Court_1 kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 5.02:
>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:14:15 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:50:37 AM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
>>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:46:34 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:
>>>
>>>>> IF age is irrelevant why Leo Dicap never dated a woman over 25?
>>>
>>>> Leo Dicap "dating" a woman? LOL.
>>> Yeah, don't you just love that quaint euphemism?
>>
>> He's probably never seen a vagina up close in his life or if he has,
>> he was on some kind of wild coke binge where anything goes. His
>> preference is another matter.
>
> For a second I thought you were talking about me. I have! I have!
>

Looks like Leo has as well...
https://youtu.be/IylCzC4054I

(I love this scene)

[PeteWasLucky]

> grandpa

Very classy Court demeanor, as always, she can't tolerate disagreements. But I think in her mind grandpa is better than Bangali, so you should feel good :)

We should call her Karen :)

[Court_1]

https://www.dallasobserver.com/film/rushes-6404393

https://twitter.com/Beard_Club/status/809396331324276736?lang=en

[Court_1]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:19:50 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:
> Court_1 Wrote in message:r

> > On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes > up the next day and all of sudden he is old?Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are! But, 1)he's compensated for some normal decline by becoming better in other areas and 2) he's obsessed with his fitness and moves incredibly well still. You can't compare Djokovic's and Federer's age experiences with great players from the past like McEnroe, Lendl, Connors. Things are completely different and Djokovic and Federer are GOAT level players.He can't be too old if he was on his way to a CYGS until he lost the final to Alcaraz at Wimbledon in a tight match which could have gone either way! He's competing point for point with a 20 year old great player! All their matches have been dog fights.
>
> This generation of players could be healthier than previous generations of players, but this doesn't mean that a 36 years old professional player now is as explosive and fit as a 30 years old player.
>
> Yes we can argue if you like that 36 years old player now is healthier than 36 years old players thirty years ago, but advancement in every field benefit all ages and won't eliminate age gaps.

You keep dancing around the main issue over and over again. I'm not saying a 36 year old athlete can necessarily be as explosive or as fit as he was at age 30! But, these athletes in today's world have the advantage of better medicine, fitness, technology. They are able to stay in excellent shape into their late thirties. If you watched Djokovic in that Cinci final vs Alcaraz and came to the conclusion that Djokovic is old and tired, you need glasses and a shrink. Same can be said about Federer in that Wimbledon 2019 final vs Djokovic.

Federer was mopping up all competition for the most part in his late 30's. The only player he couldn't overcome was Djokovic at slams in the past decade. As I've said before, he had a Djokovic problem not an age problem. It's so freaking obvious it isn't funny.

Listen to what Gill Gross says in that match wrap-up of the Cinci final. He says he doesn't accept the age excuse. 20 year old Alcaraz was the one cramping at the FO vs Djokovic. 20 year old Djokovic had terrible stamina and didn't correct that issue until 2011. 36 year old Djokovic just fought like a dog to beat a fantastic player 16 years his junior at Cinci. Djokovic is NOT being hampered by age. Just stfu already! You sound ridiculous.

Stop clinging to an outdated notion just because you want to prop up a player you have an obsession with. The stats and records tell the true story. We don't have to listen to some nutty fan.

[Gracchus]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:

> Federer said he was a better player at 34 than 24, said he could teach
> that 'young punk a thing or 2'.

And what should he have said when still active and pursuing titles? "I'm a washed-up old fuck whose best days were ten years ago"? A player's public assessment of his own abilities should always be taken with a huge grain of salt.

[Court_1]

What disagreements? Sawfish made a dig at me first. He said that I couldn't accept that athletes are affected by age because of the fact that I'm aging. Not only is that ridiculously inaccurate but Sawfish is the one who is in his 70s(according to him) and he's the one who sits on here 24-7 typing post after post of pretty much gibberish. His posts reek of a person who has trouble dealing with lost youth.

[gap...@gmail.com]

Djokovic is a fitness freak, and takes care of himself. Federer like Laver just plays the game with a reckless style, probably not knowing what the score is even? If he had changed to A 97 sqin racket would of, have won W08 and W15!?

[TT]

I've missed this film from Leo's filmography...
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114702/

> https://twitter.com/Beard_Club/status/809396331324276736?lang=en
>
>

Beard Club
Are you a member? :)

So he dates all these women because studio tells him to?
Isn't it nowadays that celebs tell they're gay even when they're really
not... for woke points etc...

[The Iceberg]

yeah Dicaprio only dated probably the top 10 best looking blondes in the world as they were all set-ups! it not cos he a superstar A-list Hollywood movie star who loves chicks LOL
he had a gang that used to hang around Hollywood in the 90's(that Lukas guy was prob one of them) and they were known as being serious ladies men(was very envious of him for a long time :D) but that was all just made up too!!

[Gracchus]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 7:41:12 AM UTC-7, TT wrote:

> Court_1 kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 16.55:

> Beard Club
> Are you a member? :)
>
> So he dates all these women because studio tells him to?
> Isn't it nowadays that celebs tell they're gay even when they're really
> not... for woke points etc...

Yes, there's a lot of that going on now. But if an actor built his or her image as a heartthrob for the opposite sex (primarily) or macho action star, they still may have a strong interest in cultivating and maintaining that image via their management, PR, and lawyers (not the studios, as in Rock Hudson's time). And remember, Gouda is well into his 40s, not a Gen Z actor.

Although I've never heard this rumor before, we should know by now that Hollywood--and the entertainment industry in general---is all about selling illusions. It's gullible to put much credence in "So-and-so is dating supermodel so-and-so." The big stars know their every public appearance will be scrutinized and gossiped about, for better or worse.

[TT]

The funny thing is that he also dumps his beards before age 26...
It's not easy being Leo's beard!

[TT]

Yes, image is everything.
But it really doesn't make much sense to swap your beards on the fly.
Nobody does that.

[Gracchus]

I agree, it does seem like unnecessary effort and risk too, because any one of them could dish the dirt on him. "Oh, Leo and I just have tea after we go those shows together. He's never even tried to get 'intimate' with me."

[Sawfish]

That's adolescent stuff, in my opinion.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...and your little dog, too!"
--Sawfish

[Sawfish]

I still think that Sharon Tate was a lot prettier than Robbie.

--
--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The big print gives it to you; the small print takes it away."

Andy, from Amos 'n' Andy, on legal contracts...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Gracchus]

The thing is, Whisper has a double standard for this stuff. Why is it OK to excuse any post-1984 McEnroe loss as, "He was doing coke and having kids" or any Sampras loss after late 1990s as, "Pete didn't really care about winning by this time."

Yet suddenly "no excuses allowed" when it's not one his pet players. You can't have it both ways.

[Sawfish]

...by Lennie's PR department...

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To the average American or Englishman the very name of anarchy causes a shudder, because it invariably conjures up a picture of a land terrorized by low-browed assassins with matted beards, carrying bombs in one hand and mugs of beer in the other. But as a matter of fact, there is no reason whatever to believe that, if all laws were abolished tomorrow, such swine would survive the day."

--H. L. Mencken
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Sawfish]

On 8/22/23 7:59 AM, Gracchus wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 7:41:12 AM UTC-7, TT wrote:
>> Court_1 kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 16.55:
>
>> Beard Club
>> Are you a member? :)
>>
>> So he dates all these women because studio tells him to?
>> Isn't it nowadays that celebs tell they're gay even when they're really
>> not... for woke points etc...
> Yes, there's a lot of that going on now. But if an actor built his or her image as a heartthrob for the opposite sex (primarily) or macho action star, they still may have a strong interest in cultivating and maintaining that image via their management, PR, and lawyers (not the studios, as in Rock Hudson's time).

Yes, agreed.

> And remember, Gouda is well into his 40s, not a Gen Z actor.
>
> Although I've never heard this rumor before, we should know by now that Hollywood--and the entertainment industry in general---is all about selling illusions. It's gullible to put much credence in "So-and-so is dating supermodel so-and-so." The big stars know their every public appearance will be scrutinized and gossiped about, for better or worse.

[Sawfish]

With all these beards, he has no time for the bath house.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I done created myself a monster."

--Boxing trainer Pappy Gault, on George Foreman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Sawfish]

Personally, I don't get the vibe that DiCaprio is gay. I do kinda get
that vibe from Clooney, however.

[Whisper]

Poor Roger, got old at 26. What could have been.

[Whisper]

PWL is the biggest Fed fan of all. Can't reason with him, just laugh
and move on.

[Whisper]

Fed was never washed up, he just kept better as he aged. He never had
an age problem, just Rafa/Novak problem.

[Sawfish]

If he didn't do that, I'd suspect that it wasn't him.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don’t have to waste your time voting."

--Charles Bukowski
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[PeteWasLucky]

Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
> On 23/08/2023 12:13 am, Court_1 wrote:> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:19:50 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> Court_1 Wrote in message:r>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes > up the next day and all of sudden he is old?Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are! But, 1)he's compensated for some normal decline by becoming better in other areas and 2) he's obsessed with his fitness and moves incredibly well still. You can't compare Djokovic's and Federer's age experiences with great players from the past like McEnroe, Lendl, Connors. Things are completely different and Djokovic and Federer are GOAT level players.He can't be too old if he was on his way to a CYGS until he lost the final to Alcaraz at Wimbledon in a tight match which could have gone either way! He's competing point for point with a 20 year old great player! All their matches have been dog fights.>>>> This generation of players could be healthier than previous generations of players, but this doesn't mean that a 36 years old professional player now is as explosive and fit as a 30 years old player.>>>> Yes we can argue if you like that 36 years old player now is healthier than 36 years old players thirty years ago, but advancement in every field benefit all ages and won't eliminate age gaps.> > You keep dancing around the main issue over and over again. I'm not saying a 36 year old athlete can necessarily be as explosive or as fit as he was at age 30! But, these athletes in today's world have the advantage of better medicine, fitness, technology. They are able to stay in excellent shape into their late thirties. If you watched Djokovic in that Cinci final vs Alcaraz and came to the conclusion that Djokovic is old and tired, you need glasses and a shrink. Same can be said about Federer in that Wimbledon 2019 final vs Djokovic.> > Federer was mopping up all competition for the most part in his late 30's. The only player he couldn't overcome was Djokovic at slams in the past decade. As I've said before, he had a Djokovic problem not an age problem. It's so freaking obvious it isn't funny.> > Listen to what Gill Gross says in that match wrap-up of the Cinci final. He says he doesn't accept the age excuse. 20 year old Alcaraz was the one cramping at the FO vs Djokovic. 20 year old Djokovic had terrible stamina and didn't correct that issue until 2011. 36 year old Djokovic just fought like a dog to beat a fantastic player 16 years his junior at Cinci. Djokovic is NOT being hampered by age. Just stfu already! You sound ridiculous.> > Stop clinging to an outdated notion just because you want to prop up a player you have an obsession with. The stats and records tell the true story. We don't have to listen to some nutty fan.PWL is the biggest Fed fan of all. Can't reason with him, just laugh and move on.

Sure loved and enjoyed his tennis, the same way I love watching Edberg and Laver (and some matches of Pete).

What is that you can't reason with me about?

That Federer isn't the same generation of Nadal and Djokovic?

https://www.perfect-tennis.com/where-are-they-now-federers-generation/


--

[Gracchus]

We'll count this among the "many times" you've defended Federer. You defend him so often, it's easy to lose track. :)

[Court_1]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:41:12 AM UTC-4, TT wrote:

> Beard Club
> Are you a member? :)

:)



> So he dates all these women because studio tells him to?

Yes. We're talking about millions if not billions of dollars at stake.

> Isn't it nowadays that celebs tell they're gay even when they're really
> not... for woke points etc...

Which leading men admit they're gay? Few and far between and if they do, they can kiss their careers bye bye.

You need to get your gaydar fixed. Remember back in the day, you said you didn't think he was gay?

https://m.famousfix.com/post/hugh-jackman-in-the-musical-the-boy-from-oz-91262718

[Court_1]

Not the same generation? Do you realize the number of matches Federer and Djokovic have played against each other? They're from the same era.

Just stop making so many damn excuses. Appreciate Federer for the fantastic player he was. Also, appreciate him for lifting the sport and putting people in seats. We probably won't see another player with his aesthetic qualities for a long time but in terms of his goatship(whatever the hell that is), Djokovic has surpassed him. We didn't want it to happen. We were fighting it tooth and nail but it happened and there really is no room to argue otherwise at this point. The only argument now is who is in 2nd place between Federer and Nadal.

[Court_1]

Whisper is far from a Federer lover but I agree that Federer had a Nadal problem for the first part of his career and then he had a Djokovic problem for the last decade of his career. You can try and dress it up as something else but no matter how hard you try, it's there staring you in the face.

I'm sure Federer fanatics have a harder time with this fact than Federer himself. He's off enjoying his billion dollars and is happy with the knowledge that he was beloved by millions and entertained the hell out of fans for 20 years. He was close for the goathood but slipped. 2nd or 3rd place is pretty unbelievable.

[Gracchus]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:30:37 PM UTC-7, Court_1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:22:02 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:39:23 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:
> > > On 23/08/2023 12:14 am, Gracchus wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Federer said he was a better player at 34 than 24, said he could teach
> > > >> that 'young punk a thing or 2'.
> >
> > > > And what should he have said when still active and pursuing titles? "I'm a washed-up old fuck whose best days were ten years ago"? A player's public assessment of his own abilities should always be taken with a huge grain of salt.
> >
> > > Fed was never washed up, he just kept better as he aged. He never had
> > > an age problem, just Rafa/Novak problem.

> > We'll count this among the "many times" you've defended Federer. You defend him so often, it's easy to lose track. :)

> Whisper is far from a Federer lover but I agree that Federer had a Nadal problem for the first part of his career and then he had a Djokovic problem for the last decade of his career. You can try and dress it up as something else but no matter how hard you try, it's there staring you in the face.

Nobody is "dressing up" anything. You've read my position on this more than once. It's just a tiresome discussion that's been looped through far too many times.

> I'm sure Federer fanatics have a harder time with this fact than Federer himself. He's off enjoying his billion dollars and is happy with the knowledge that he was beloved by millions and entertained the hell out of fans for 20 years. He was close for the goathood but slipped. 2nd or 3rd place is pretty unbelievable.

Yes, there are some fans who think players like this spend their days and nights agonizing for years over this. I'm sure they have their self-kicking moments (like McEnroe and the '84 French Open), but at the end of the day, they live magnificent lives most people only fantasize about. Federer played in a remarkable era when three champions for the ages had overlapping careers. So he let some huge titles slip through his fingers and stalled out at a paltry 20 slams. Boo hoo.

[Whisper]

You're the only one who talks about the big 3 not being in the same gen.
You mention this 100's of times, yet not once do you say
Mac/Borg/Lendl only won slams because Jimbo was many yrs older. How
about just once make an argument for Connors being better than these
guys? It's the same logic.

[Whisper]

Absolutely. For me no one comes close to McEnroe. Carlos is up there
but Mac was something else. I understand Federer is popular but he just
never did it for me. I don't want to admit it but I found his game
pretty dull. He's just missing the x factor for me, prob something to do
with all the beatings he took v the elite players. I admire great
players who really dominate the other greats, losing all the time is a
bit of a yawn for me.

[*skriptis]

Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r
> On 23/08/2023 1:54 am, PeteWasLucky wrote:> Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r>> On 23/08/2023 12:13 am, Court_1 wrote:> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 3:19:50 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> Court_1 Wrote in message:r>>> On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:53:27 AM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> > Eventually Djokovic will be too old to compete but he sure as hell isn't at the point yet.> So aging happens suddenly? One day he isn't old and then he wakes > up the next day and all of sudden he is old?Did I say that? Of course he's aging, we all are! But, 1)he's compensated for some normal decline by becoming better in other areas and 2) he's obsessed with his fitness and moves incredibly well still. You can't compare Djokovic's and Federer's age experiences with great players from the past like McEnroe, Lendl, Connors. Things are completely different and Djokovic and Federer are GOAT level players.He can't be too old if he was on his way to a CYGS until he lost the final to Alcaraz at Wimbledon in a tight match which could have gone either way! He's competing point for point with a 20 year old great player! All their matches have been dog fights.>>>> This generation of players could be healthier than previous generations of players, but this doesn't mean that a 36 years old professional player now is as explosive and fit as a 30 years old player.>>>> Yes we can argue if you like that 36 years old player now is healthier than 36 years old players thirty years ago, but advancement in every field benefit all ages and won't eliminate age gaps.> > You keep dancing around the main issue over and over again. I'm not saying a 36 year old athlete can necessarily be as explosive or as fit as he was at age 30! But, these athletes in today's world have the advantage of better medicine, fitness, technology. They are able to stay in excellent shape into their late thirties. If you watched Djokovic in that Cinci final vs Alcaraz and came to the conclusion that Djokovic is old and tired, you need glasses and a shrink. Same can be said about Federer in that Wimbledon 2019 final vs Djokovic.> > Federer was mopping up all competition for the most part in his late 30's. The only player he couldn't overcome was Djokovic at slams in the past decade. As I've said before, he had a Djokovic problem not an age problem. It's so freaking obvious it isn't funny.> > Listen to what Gill Gross says in that match wrap-up of the Cinci final. He says he doesn't accept the age excuse. 20 year old Alcaraz was the one cramping at the FO vs Djokovic. 20 year old Djokovic had terrible stamina and didn't correct that issue until 2011. 36 year old Djokovic just fought like a dog to beat a fantastic player 16 years his junior at Cinci. Djokovic is NOT being hampered by age. Just stfu already! You sound ridiculous.> > Stop clinging to an outdated notion just because you want to prop up a player you have an obsession with. The stats and records tell the true story. We don't have to listen to some nutty fan.PWL is the biggest Fed fan of all. Can't reason with him, just laugh and move on.> > Sure loved and enjoyed his tennis, the same way I love watching Edberg and Laver (and some matches of Pete).> > What is that you can't reason with me about?> > That Federer isn't the same generation of Nadal and Djokovic?> You're the only one who talks about the big 3 not being in the same gen. You mention this 100's of times, yet not once do you say Mac/Borg/Lendl only won slams because Jimbo was many yrs older. How about just once make an argument for Connors being better than these guys? It's the same logic.

James Scott Connors (born September 2, 1952)

Björn Rune Borg (Swedish pronunciation: [ˈbjœːɳ ˈbɔrj] (listen); born 6 June 1956)

John Patrick McEnroe Jr. (born February 16, 1959)

Ivan Lendl (Czech pronunciation: [ˈɪvan ˈlɛndl̩]; born March 7, 1960)

Mats Arne Olof Wilander (Swedish pronunciation: [ˈmats vɪˈlǎnːdɛr]; born 22 August 1964)

Stefan Bengt Edberg (Swedish pronunciation: [ˈstěːfan ˈêːdbærj]; born 19 January 1966)

Boris Franz Becker (German pronunciation: [ˈboːʁɪs ˈbɛkɐ] (listen); born 22 November 1967

Michael Detlef Stich (German pronunciation: [ˈmɪçaːʔeːl ʃtɪç], audio (help·info); born 18 October 1968)




16 years Connors Stich

[The Iceberg]

yeah those poor gullible people who reckoned for years George Clooney and Tom Cruise were straight instead of believing all the "rumours" and publications saying they were gay, those poor gullible types who have seen the total illusion of Clooney getting married and having a family LOL it's totally not an obsession or gullible to reckon that every single Hollywood leading male is gay, like every time.

[The Iceberg]

you've just hugely upset Raja and Pelle!

[The Iceberg]

On Tuesday, 22 August 2023 at 16:27:04 UTC+1, Sawfish wrote:
> On 8/22/23 8:08 AM, Gracchus wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:02:29 AM UTC-7, TT wrote:
> >> Gracchus kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 17.59:
> >>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 7:41:12 AM UTC-7, TT wrote:
> >>>> Court_1 kirjoitti 22.8.2023 klo 16.55:
> >>>> Beard Club
> >>>> Are you a member? :)
> >>>>
> >>>> So he dates all these women because studio tells him to?
> >>>> Isn't it nowadays that celebs tell they're gay even when they're really
> >>>> not... for woke points etc...
> >>> Yes, there's a lot of that going on now. But if an actor built his or her image as a heartthrob for the opposite sex (primarily) or macho action star, they still may have a strong interest in cultivating and maintaining that image via their management, PR, and lawyers (not the studios, as in Rock Hudson's time). And remember, Gouda is well into his 40s, not a Gen Z actor.
> >>> Although I've never heard this rumor before, we should know by now that Hollywood--and the entertainment industry in general---is all about selling illusions. It's gullible to put much credence in "So-and-so is dating supermodel so-and-so." The big stars know their every public appearance will be scrutinized and gossiped about, for better or worse.
> >> Yes, image is everything.
> >> But it really doesn't make much sense to swap your beards on the fly.
> >> Nobody does that.
> > I agree, it does seem like unnecessary effort and risk too, because any one of them could dish the dirt on him. "Oh, Leo and I just have tea after we go those shows together. He's never even tried to get 'intimate' with me."
> Personally, I don't get the vibe that DiCaprio is gay. I do kinda get
> that vibe from Clooney, however.

the Clooney is gay thing isn't PR at all designed to promote him to a gay audience LOL

[The Iceberg]

you mean Hugh "been married for 20 years" Jackman, such a hugely gay man!

[The Iceberg]

what the Fedfans and Djokerfans hate is that Sampras would've beaten them all on grass and prob at USO.

[The Iceberg]

yeah totally PR, not that he was a superstar ladies man who women would fall over after he made Titantic, wow imagine if you were friends with a guy like that!

[Gracchus]

But apparently it's OK for McEnroe--with his grand total of seven slams--to be past his prime and his game looking outmoded by the time he was 26 and getting whomped regularly not only by his contemporary Lendl, but by up-and-comers like Becker, whom McEnroe admitted "paralyzed" him with his power. Interesting how your mind works, Whisp.

Feel free to dredge up the argument that McEnroe was more concerned with drugs, kids, and a bad marriage by the time he was 25. But that would be making excuses. And we don't believe in excuses, do we?

[Sawfish]

Ice, I don't read about these guys. I'm strictly going on what I see on
video and in films, while acting.

[Sawfish]

YUGELY...

[*skriptis]

Gracchus <grac...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
> On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 2:09:29 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote:> On 23/08/2023 1:30 pm, Court_1 wrote: > > On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:22:02 PM UTC-4, Gracchus wrote: > >> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 8:39:23 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote: > >>> On 23/08/2023 12:14 am, Gracchus wrote: > >>>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-7, Whisper wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Federer said he was a better player at 34 than 24, said he could teach > >>>>> that 'young punk a thing or 2'. > >> > >>>> And what should he have said when still active and pursuing titles? "I'm a washed-up old fuck whose best days were ten years ago"? A player's public assessment of his own abilities should always be taken with a huge grain of salt. > >> > >>> Fed was never washed up, he just kept better as he aged. He never had > >>> an age problem, just Rafa/Novak problem. > >> We'll count this among the "many times" you've defended Federer. You defend him so often, it's easy to lose track. :) > > > > > > Whisper is far from a Federer lover but I agree that Federer had a Nadal problem for the first part of his career and then he had a Djokovic problem for the last decade of his career. You can try and dress it up as something else but no matter how hard you try, it's there staring you in the face. > > > > I'm sure Federer fanatics have a harder time with this fact than Federer himself. He's off enjoying his billion dollars and is happy with the knowledge that he was beloved by millions and entertained the hell out of fans for 20 years. >He was close for the goathood but slipped. 2nd or 3rd place is pretty unbelievable.> Absolutely. For me no one comes close to McEnroe. Carlos is up there > but Mac was something else. I understand Federer is popular but he just > never did it for me. I don't want to admit it but I found his game > pretty dull. He's just missing the x factor for me, prob something to do > with all the beatings he took v the elite players. I admire great > players who really dominate the other greats, losing all the time is a > bit of a yawn for me.But apparently it's OK for McEnroe--with his grand total of seven slams--to be past his prime and his game looking outmoded by the time he was 26 and getting whomped regularly not only by his contemporary Lendl, but by up-and-comers like Becker, whom McEnroe admitted "paralyzed" him with his power. Interesting how your mind works, Whisp.Feel free to dredge up the argument that McEnroe was more concerned with drugs, kids, and a bad marriage by the time he was 25. But that would be making excuses. And we don't believe in excuses, do we?





McEnroe was talented player, fell to off court distractions rather early in his career and consequently played as if he was semi-retired. He lost a chance to improve his legacy and so on.


Whisper doesn't argue McEnroe is the greatest ever so I don't get your point here?

[TT]

In reality Mac couldn't handle Lendl after the latter got his nerves in
czech.

[TT]

Exhibit one:
https://youtu.be/kuV-i3yK9gI?t=32

Gay!