Tennis rules question (serve)

[ajdevise]

Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 17, 1:51 pm, ajdevise <jirai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).

Not entirely sure of what you are asking here.

I assume you mean the server steps up to the line, serves, the ball
crosses the net and then bounces in the service box.

I have never heard of any rule allowing the ball to bounce twice in
the service box, either on serve or with the ball in play after that.

Perhaps you haven't expressed yourself clearly?
Serving overhand or underhand makes no difference.

[ajdevise]

> I assume you mean the server steps up to the line, serves, the ball
> crosses the net and then bounces in the service box.

Right, the ball bounces twice in the legit service box. Same as
sometimes happened when there is a "let" and the ball barely makes it
across the net. Is that allowed? Or is it the rule that serve can only
bounce in the service box once?

[Booger]

I think you are basically asking why nobody does a drop shot serve?
I'm pretty sure you can as it isn't against the rules, but that
underhand serve is frowned upon for some reason. It may also be a
high risk play and hard to pull off without giving your opponent an
easy point, but I couldn't say for sure.

[TennisGuy]

There are no exceptions to the rule.
The rule not only applies to the serve but for every other shot played
in the game.
If the ball bounces twice, the point is over.

It's interesting that you mentioned the underhanded serve, because
just this morning I was thinking about Roger and Rafa during a serve.
Think Rafa, camped out 6-10 feet behind the baseline to return Roger's
first serve.

Of course Roger would never do this (because he feels it is beneath
him) but if he would serve an underhanded first serve once in a while
he could score many free quick and easy points against Rafa.

Plus he would always keep Rafa on edge guessing when the next one
would be coming.

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 17, 4:01 pm, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of course Roger would never do this (because he feels it is beneath
> him) but if he would serve an underhanded first serve once in a while
> he could score many free quick and easy points against Rafa.

It wasn't beneath Chang or Lendl though :)
I remember one time when Lendl did a surprise *overhand* drop shot on
serve to McEnroe (it's on YouTube).
Lendl was a bit pissed at McEnroe at the time (what else is new).
He served, McEnroe froze out of confusion six feet behind the
baseline, and Lendl started walking off the court to his chair before
the ball had even bounced twice! (It was game point). Priceless. :)

[Ali Asoag]

Or ask Hingis. ;-)

[Superdave]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:01:19 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Love to see it ! Rafa deserves all the shit he can get.

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:51:10 -0800 (PST), ajdevise <jira...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
>the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).

Yes, certainly.

-- Larry

[Superdave]

if anybody could perfect that shot they would have to change the rules of the
game or they would never lose. it would drive a guy like rafa totally insane.

[Whisper]

I think Fed & everyone should use it against guys like Rafa. If they're
going to stand that far back then it's a legit tactic.

[Edward McArdle]

In article <4eed252f$0$6630$9b4e...@newsspool2.arcor-online.net>,

I saw Hingis do it, so it must have been the Australian Open. Her opponent
did actually get to it, but Hingis won the point (I think).

In answer to the original question, you can certainly do it. There is no
rule about how hard you have to hit any shot!

--
Edward McArdle

[Iceberg]

On Dec 18, 10:15 am, Whisper <beaver...@ozemail.com> wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 12:34 PM, Superdave wrote:
>

> > On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:16:13 -0500, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:

>
> >> On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:51:10 -0800 (PST), ajdevise<jirai...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> >>> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
> >>> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).
>
> >> Yes, certainly.
>
> >> -- Larry
>
> > if anybody could perfect that shot they would have to change the rules of the
> > game or they would never lose. it would drive a guy like rafa totally insane.
>
> I think Fed & everyone should use it against guys like Rafa.  If they're
> going to stand that far back then it's a legit tactic.

the problem they'd find is Nadal is so focused/fast, he'd probably
have whipped a winner before they knew what was happening.

[Javier González]

On Dec 18, 7:15 am, Whisper <beaver...@ozemail.com> wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 12:34 PM, Superdave wrote:
>

> > On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:16:13 -0500, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:

>
> >> On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:51:10 -0800 (PST), ajdevise<jirai...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> >>> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
> >>> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).
>
> >> Yes, certainly.
>
> >> -- Larry
>
> > if anybody could perfect that shot they would have to change the rules of the
> > game or they would never lose. it would drive a guy like rafa totally insane.
>
> I think Fed & everyone should use it against guys like Rafa.  If they're
> going to stand that far back then it's a legit tactic.

You'd really have to find some way to effectively disguise that one.
Would be fun if you could pull it off, though.

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 18, 11:51 pm, mcar...@ozemail.com.au (Edward McArdle) wrote:

> In answer to the original question, you can certainly do it. There is no
> rule about how hard you have to hit any shot!

Not to be pedantic about this, but the answer to the original question
is no, you can't do it.

Original question:

Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice?

Or to be really pedantic, yes you can do it, but you would lose the
point, as the ball is not allowed to bounce twice.

[Sakari Lund]

Maybe I am wrong but I have thought all through this thread that you
misunderstood the question. Seems to be that somehow you are thinking
this from the returner's point of view. Of course the returner loses
the point if the serve bounces twice before he hits it. I don't think
anyone would even ask such a question.

The question was, as you say "Is the serve allowed to drop in the
service box twice?", meaning does the server lose the point if the
serve bounces twice in the service box, like if you serve underhanded
or really slowly. I don't think there is any rule saying that is not
allowed.

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 19, 3:07 pm, Sakari Lund <sakari.l...@welho.com> wrote:

> Maybe I am wrong but I have thought all through this thread that you
> misunderstood the question. Seems to be that somehow you are thinking
> this from the returner's point of view. Of course the returner loses
> the point if the serve bounces twice before he hits it. I don't think
> anyone would even ask such a question.
>
> The question was, as you say "Is the serve allowed to drop in the
> service box twice?", meaning does the server lose the point if the
> serve bounces twice in the service box, like if you serve underhanded
> or really slowly. I don't think there is any rule saying that is not
> allowed.

Sakari, maybe I'm an *idiot* or just *thick in the head*, but I don't
follow what you are saying at all.

Look, there are four (4) services boxes on the court.

Let's eliminate two of them for the purposes of this discussion.

Let's focus on the 'deuce court' service boxes.
Say the server steps up to the baseline, ready to serve the first
point of the game.

It doesn't matter whether he serves over-handed, under-handed, really
slowly, really fast, through the legs, between his body and his
armpit, behind his back, over his left ear etc., the ball must still
travel over the net and bounce into the 'deuce court' service box.

If the ball bounces twice in the deuce service box, *server* wins
point.
Yes 'it is allowed' to let the ball bounce twice. But it isn't the
server who allows this.
Only the returner can allow this to happen. If he allows it to happen,
he loses the point. So it would be foolish for the returner to 'allow
the ball to bounce twice'.

Other possibility; Server serves the ball, it doesn't cross the next
but bounces into the service box on his side of the net. Whether the
ball bounces once or twice or ten times, the server will still lose
the point.
Is it 'allowed'? Sure it is allowed, but it would be foolish for the
server to do this as he would lose the point immediately. :)

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 19, 3:07 pm, Sakari Lund <sakari.l...@welho.com> wrote:

> The question was, as you say "Is the serve allowed to drop in the
> service box twice?", meaning does the server lose the point if the
> serve bounces twice in the service box, like if you serve underhanded
> or really slowly. I don't think there is any rule saying that is not
> allowed.

OK, I think I have finally understood what you guys are asking here.

I'm not really sure why one would ask such a question. :)

You could serve the ball underhanded, 50 feet in the air, as long as
the ball bounces inside the service box.
If the ball then bounced a second time in the service box, the SERVER
would win the point.

So yes it (the ball) is allowed to drop in the box twice. The returner
would be very foolish to watch this occur however as he would lose the
point.

Next question.... :)

[Shakes]

According to Mac, India's Ramesh Krishnan pulled off that stunt
against him, much to his disgust, the first time they played, and, no,
he didn't hit an underarm serve. It was a regular serve. :)

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 19, 6:23 pm, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So yes it (the ball) is allowed to drop in the box twice. The returner
> would be very foolish to watch this occur however as he would lose the
> point.
>
> Next question....   :)

My favourite shot is the 'horseshoe special' serve.
Step up to the baseline, Mac style, shoulders perpendicular to the
net.
Take an underhand, vicious, 'Nadal-like strength' cut at the ball, and
watch the ball sail into the service box and then kick back over the
net onto the server's side. :)

[Whisper]

On 20/12/2011 1:59 AM, Javier González wrote:
> On Dec 18, 7:15 am, Whisper<beaver...@ozemail.com> wrote:
>> On 18/12/2011 12:34 PM, Superdave wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:16:13 -0500, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:51:10 -0800 (PST), ajdevise<jirai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
>>>>> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).
>>
>>>> Yes, certainly.
>>
>>>> -- Larry
>>
>>> if anybody could perfect that shot they would have to change the rules of the
>>> game or they would never lose. it would drive a guy like rafa totally insane.
>>

>> I think Fed& everyone should use it against guys like Rafa. If they're

>> going to stand that far back then it's a legit tactic.
>
> You'd really have to find some way to effectively disguise that one.
> Would be fun if you could pull it off, though.

Be worth trying now & again.

[Iceberg]

have to say, isn't this one of the most basic tennis questions ever
heard asked on RST?? can the ball that was served bounce twice in the
service box? well not to be rude, but duh, yes if the returner wants
to lose the point.

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 07:37:01 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

The original question was whether the server is permitted to hit a serve which
bounces twice in the service box, not whether the receiver can play it after it
bounces twice.

-- Larry

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:12:33 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Only the returner can allow this to happen.

The question was not who *allows* it to happen (by not getting to the ball),
but who *causes* it to happen (or makes it possible, by hitting the serve
softly or with backspin).

In a sense, the server also *allows* it to happen by hitting an appropriate
serve. Note that he can also *prevent* it from happening, simply by hitting a
normal serve that would not bounce twice in the service box.

-- Larry

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 20, 11:35 am, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:

> The question was not who *allows*  it to happen (by not getting to the ball),
> but who *causes*  it to happen (or makes it possible, by hitting the serve
> softly or with backspin).
>
> In a sense, the server also *allows* it to happen by hitting an appropriate
> serve. Note that he can also *prevent* it from happening, simply by hitting a
> normal serve that would not bounce twice in the service box.

Correct.

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 20, 11:31 am, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:

> The original question was whether the server is permitted to hit a serve which
> bounces twice in the service box, not whether the receiver can play it after it
> bounces twice.

Right.
I think it was a poorly worded question, causing this confusion.

My thinking was, can a server make this serve (bouncing twice in the
service box) and that serve was deemed by the chair umpire as fair to
continue play (legal), ie a special serve compared to all other
serves.

This special serve (because the server was so talented to have it
bounce twice in the service box) is deemed to be allowed to play after
that. ie. the returner can, (after marveling at the beauty of the
serve) continue play at hit the ball back to his opponent.

Had the OP worded his post something like the following, I think it
would have been clearer:

If a serve lands in the service box and bounces twice there, *does the
server win the point*? ie. is that a legal shot?

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 17, 1:51 pm, ajdevise <jirai...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).

Why stop at two?
Heck the serve is allowed to drop in the service box three, four, five
six times or even more!
No rule says it can't.

[jdeluise]

On 20-Dec-2011, TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Right.
> I think it was a poorly worded question, causing this confusion.

Absolutely. And his follow up post made it even more perplexing... go back
and read that one. I'm not going to read into it too much without further
clarification from the OP.

[jdeluise]

On 20-Dec-2011, TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Why stop at two?
> Heck the serve is allowed to drop in the service box three, four, five
> six times or even more!
> No rule says it can't.

Isn't the ball allowed to bounce twice in wheelchair tennis?

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 20, 1:57 pm, "jdeluise" <jdelu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20-Dec-2011, TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Why stop at two?
> > Heck the serve is allowed to drop in the service box three, four, five
> > six times or even more!
> > No rule says it can't.
>
> Isn't the ball allowed to bounce twice in wheelchair tennis?

Not sure about the rules to that game. :)

[Sakari Lund]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:56:49 GMT, "jdeluise" <jdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Really? I thought the OP was very clear (although I can't still be
certain my reading is correct). But it never occured to me it could
mean something else, until people started confusing the issue.

Certainly nobody can ask is it OK to return the ball after two bounces
(except in wheelchair tennis...)? But someone might ask if there is a
rule that the ball can only bounce once in the box and the second
bounce must be outside.

[jdeluise]

On 20-Dec-2011, Sakari Lund <sakar...@welho.com> wrote:

> Certainly nobody can ask is it OK to return the ball after two bounces
> (except in wheelchair tennis...)? But someone might ask if there is a
> rule that the ball can only bounce once in the box and the second
> bounce must be outside.

OK, that's not at all how I interpreted the question based on how it was
worded, but I think that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:57:39 GMT, "jdeluise" <jdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Isn't the ball allowed to bounce twice in wheelchair tennis?

Yes.

-- Larry

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 20, 3:56 pm, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:57:39 GMT, "jdeluise" <jdelu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Isn't the ball allowed to bounce twice in wheelchair tennis?
>
> Yes.
>
> -- Larry

In the service box only? (we are talking about the service box in
this post aren't we?)

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:05:47 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Dec 20, 3:56 pm, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:57:39 GMT, "jdeluise" <jdelu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Isn't the ball allowed to bounce twice in wheelchair tennis?
>>
>> Yes.
>

> In the service box only? (we are talking about the service box in
>this post aren't we?)

No, on any stroke. (We have digressed here.)

-- Larry

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 17, 1:51 pm, ajdevise <jirai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is the serve allowed to drop in the service box twice? For example, if
> the server serves an underhanded serve (a drop shot really).

Here's the way I see it (just to confuse things even more).

If the ball is allowed to bounce twice in the service box, as everyone
is saying (including Larry), then shouldn't we give the guys in the
wheelchairs a break and allow the ball to bounce three times in the
service box? :)

[Superdave]

How about if the server takes 40 seconds to serve when the rule is 20? Then, he
does it repeatedly over and over again? What next? Sometimes they let the ball
bounce twice and play continues for certain players at certain times? WTF is
going on !

[pltr...@xhost.org]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:31:01 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffer...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Here's the way I see it (just to confuse things even more).
>
>If the ball is allowed to bounce twice in the service box, as everyone
>is saying (including Larry), then shouldn't we give the guys in the
>wheelchairs a break and allow the ball to bounce three times in the
>service box? :)

Well, *we* don't play against wheelchair players -- at least I've never heard of
such a match being played. So I guess it would be up to those players and their
administartion to modify their rules, if they felt the need.

It would be interesting to hit with one of the top players, but I don't think
they get enough on the ball to be competitive.

Does anyone know from firsthand experience?

-- Larry

[TennisGuy]

On Dec 21, 1:06 am, pltrg...@xhost.org wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:31:01 -0800 (PST), TennisGuy <Jeffery21...@yahoo.com>

As is often the case here, you have misunderstood what I was
saying. :)

> If the ball is allowed to bounce twice in the service box, as everyone
> is saying (including Larry), then shouldn't we give the guys in the
> wheelchairs a break and allow the ball to bounce three times in the
> service box? :)

First off I was being facetious. :)
The overwhelming consensus was that the ball is allowed to bounce
twice in the service box for us (and the pros) according to the
responses in the above thread.

It was then stated that the ball was allowed to bounce twice for
wheelchair players.
So I thought to myself, well that doesn't give them any advantage over
us non-wheelchair players.

So I then suggested that we give the guys in wheelchairs (not 'we'
literally as you took it, as in we play them together, non-wheel +
wheelchair) a break and allow the ball to bounce three times instead
of just two.