OT: baseball question for Joe Ramirez
John P
Did you by any chance read the excellent article in today's NY Times
titled, "50 Years Later, a Slide Still Confounds"?
If so, can you explain why in the 3-6-3 double play scenario it wouldn't
have mattered if the runner crossed home plate first, but in the other
scenarios involving Nelson first touching first base to get Berra out
and then Mantle being tagged out (either directly or in a rundown) it
would have mattered if the runner crossed home plate first? Does it
matter if the third out is made by the batter or a baserunner? Thanks.
reilloc
One out, men on first and third, ground ball to the first baseman who
tags first putting out the batter, decision whether to throw to home,
throw to second to trap the first base runner or try to tag the runner
yourself and what does the first baseman do?
Tries to tag his runner, misses and the third base runner scores.
If Berra had lined to first, with Mantle off the base Nelson's tag would
have been the two final outs. Having fielded a grounder, though, the
game was still alive until after a third out so the throw to home was
the only reasonable play to make since McDougald would probably make it
home after a throw to second, before they could run down Mantle, if
ever. What's the worst that could happen? McDougald stays on third,
Mantle takes second, there are two men in scoring position but you
haven't allowed a run.
Still, if you're the first baseman, standing there with the ball in your
hand and the runner only eight feet from you, you'd think you could
lunge and touch him. Wrong.
I was in sixth grade and Mr. Junkins brought a TV (black and white) into
the classroom so we could see this final game of that series. Things
were different back then.
LNC
John P
well, the NY Times article quoted at least one Pittsburgh player from
that game who defended first baseman Nelson's play of stepping on first
and then trying to tag out Mantle, saying that he saw two outs right in
front of him. Former NY Mets first baseman Keith Hernandez (who won
several Gold Gloves) also sympathized with Nelson's decision, but said
his execution was wrong - he should have simply stood at first and
blocked the base instead of wandering several feet away from the base
attempting to tag Mantle. Hernandez likened Nelson/Mantle to an
elephant/gazelle in that instance, and basically praised Mantle for
making a great slide.
BTW, you've probably heard that a kinescope(?) of that final game was
recently found in Bing Crosby's house, and that such is going to be
shown on TV in December and for sale on DVD.
PS) I have to give credit to the NY Times here. I asked them the same
question I asked Joe here, and they gave me a very good answer.
reilloc
What Nelson did was not error. He had the talent to be a pro, had just
made a professional play and had played in thousands of games as a kid
and a pro. Hell, I'd have stood there and blocked first if I could.
It would be great, like the Times article says would happen these days,
to have a modern, high resolution, slow motion isolation of the
situation at first shown in split screen with the one at third. There's
this nanosecond-critical pas de deux at first hinging on how McDougald's
playing the running consideration at third. Back at first, Nelson's off
balance, pulled to the foul side of the bag, Mantle's not taken off on
contact because there's only one out when contact was made and no
hit-and-run had been called, apparently. Berra's still on the field and
although everybody knows he's out he's still on the field, somewhere
between first and home. He wouldn't interfere with the throw to home,
hell, he was a catcher himself, but he's still an element in Nelson's
sight and if there is a throw to home and the ball going past him goes
out of sight for one of those nanoseconds Smith, behind the plate, could
have a problem.
What Nelson did wasn't wrong and turned out to be moot. What did the
Times say in response to your question?
LNC
John P
The Times basically said that if the third out of an inning is a force
out at a base (whether it be part of a double play or not), it doesn't
matter if a runner touches home plate before that third out - the run
doesn't count. However, if the third out is a tag out then a run that
touches the plate before that tag third out counts. So even if Nelson
had tagged Mantle out, it's possible the tying run would have scored
anyway if the runner touched home before Nelson's tag (which would seem
unlikely given that Berra's grounder was sharply hit and caught by
Nelson on one bounce).
Determining whether a runner touched home plate before a tag out is made
somewhere on the basepaths would seem to be asking a lot of an umpiring
crew.
In any event, the Times proceeded to give me another example. The Mets
scored the winning run on a sacrifice fly in which a first base runner
was doubled up. The Yanks thought they had escaped defeat, but Mets
manager Bobby Valentine convinced the umps that the runner from third
had touched home before the guy at first was tagged with the third out.