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Is there such thing as an inherently disrespectful shot in tennis?
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Gracchus
Jan 1, 2015, 6:47:09 PM1/1/15
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There was recently some brief discussion here about the swing volley and I got to thinking about it. Nowadays many players use it. But when Agassi started using it routinely 20-some years ago, McEnroe said that we he---Mac--was coming up through the ranks, the shot was generally considered an insult. "Look out in the locker room" after the match if you used it against an opponent.
It reminds me of Norman Mailer's commentary in the movie "When We Were Kings," which was about the Foreman-Ali fight in Zaire. Mailer said that a right-handed fighter throwing a right-hand lead implied that he considered his opponent so slow that a counter left hook wasn't even a worry. Supposedly when Ali threw 7-8 right-hand leads in the first round, this infuriated Foreman, who became all the more intent on knocking Ali out quickly, and thus fell into Ali's "Rope-A-Dope" trap.
So I was wondering how many people here think "anything goes" on a tennis court or if there are some shots that really show disrespect for an opponent. Some that come to mind are:
(1) The previously-mentioned swing volley. I think back was Agassi started with it, this was kind of a slap at the opponent--but then Agassi did lots of things like that. Of course, when other players began to adopt it, the swing volley became the "new normal" within a couple of years. IMO it's only disrespectful if executed in a too-causal manner. Otherwise it's just adding extra juice to the volley. Sloppy to a traditionalist perhaps, but ok in terms of propriety.
(2) The underhand serve. The first player I recall doing this was Lendl vs. Jose-Luis Clerc at some small tournament. Lendl won the point and Clerc didn't look pleased with the tactic. Now and then Lendl did it against other players too. I don't know if it was just meant as a surprise tactic or intended to piss the other player off. Knowing Lendl, probably both, though of course Chang famously did it against Lendl at the '89 FO. To me it does seem like a disrespectful shot.
(3) The drop shot return of serve. Safin did this to Sampras in their USO final, and the commentators wondered how Sampras would respond to Safin TOYING with him. Federer did it to both Nalbandian and Agassi a few years later at the USO. Mac thought it was kind of cruel, and I think we had some discussion on RST about it at the time. Many thought it was a legit shot, and I guess I agree as long as it is used occasionally.
(4) Moonballing. Again, the occasional moonball can be an effective change-up, but when an opponent throws up a whole bunch of them, IMO it's disrespectful to both opponent and spectators. Andrea Jaeger used to do it to Chris Evert because Jaeger's only hope of winning was to bore Chris to death and she knew Evert's overhead was too weak to swoop in on the first shallow moonball. My prevailing memory though is of Agassi (of course) turning a USO match into a farce by hitting dozens of moonballs against Kucera, who ended up beating him anyway.
(5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
(6) Aiming directly at an opponent. Some people think this is totally legit too, since it isn't against the rules, and can discourage an opponent who is too "net happy." Lendl of course was most notorious for it. I posted a clip here once of Lendl pounding a forehand into Gerulaitis's head as he rushed the net. He also went after McEnroe, Connors, and who knows how many others. And who could forget Yannick Noah accusing Amos Mansdorf of trying to blast point-blank shots into his groin? I'll bet the incident made him think twice about the "tweener" after that! Anyway, I see this tactic as more openly hostile than disrespectful.
(7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other player look foolish.
(8) The "lookaway" half-volley. This is like a basketball variation on the tennis court. Montfils did it against Federer at the last USO, rushing the net and hitting a causal half-volley without even watching the ball. Again, it seems to me this is a practice court shot that shouldn't be used in a real match. Not only is it sloppy, but a slap in the face to an opponent. Extra demerits for doing it to the GOAT!
It reminds me of Norman Mailer's commentary in the movie "When We Were Kings," which was about the Foreman-Ali fight in Zaire. Mailer said that a right-handed fighter throwing a right-hand lead implied that he considered his opponent so slow that a counter left hook wasn't even a worry. Supposedly when Ali threw 7-8 right-hand leads in the first round, this infuriated Foreman, who became all the more intent on knocking Ali out quickly, and thus fell into Ali's "Rope-A-Dope" trap.
So I was wondering how many people here think "anything goes" on a tennis court or if there are some shots that really show disrespect for an opponent. Some that come to mind are:
(1) The previously-mentioned swing volley. I think back was Agassi started with it, this was kind of a slap at the opponent--but then Agassi did lots of things like that. Of course, when other players began to adopt it, the swing volley became the "new normal" within a couple of years. IMO it's only disrespectful if executed in a too-causal manner. Otherwise it's just adding extra juice to the volley. Sloppy to a traditionalist perhaps, but ok in terms of propriety.
(2) The underhand serve. The first player I recall doing this was Lendl vs. Jose-Luis Clerc at some small tournament. Lendl won the point and Clerc didn't look pleased with the tactic. Now and then Lendl did it against other players too. I don't know if it was just meant as a surprise tactic or intended to piss the other player off. Knowing Lendl, probably both, though of course Chang famously did it against Lendl at the '89 FO. To me it does seem like a disrespectful shot.
(3) The drop shot return of serve. Safin did this to Sampras in their USO final, and the commentators wondered how Sampras would respond to Safin TOYING with him. Federer did it to both Nalbandian and Agassi a few years later at the USO. Mac thought it was kind of cruel, and I think we had some discussion on RST about it at the time. Many thought it was a legit shot, and I guess I agree as long as it is used occasionally.
(4) Moonballing. Again, the occasional moonball can be an effective change-up, but when an opponent throws up a whole bunch of them, IMO it's disrespectful to both opponent and spectators. Andrea Jaeger used to do it to Chris Evert because Jaeger's only hope of winning was to bore Chris to death and she knew Evert's overhead was too weak to swoop in on the first shallow moonball. My prevailing memory though is of Agassi (of course) turning a USO match into a farce by hitting dozens of moonballs against Kucera, who ended up beating him anyway.
(5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
(6) Aiming directly at an opponent. Some people think this is totally legit too, since it isn't against the rules, and can discourage an opponent who is too "net happy." Lendl of course was most notorious for it. I posted a clip here once of Lendl pounding a forehand into Gerulaitis's head as he rushed the net. He also went after McEnroe, Connors, and who knows how many others. And who could forget Yannick Noah accusing Amos Mansdorf of trying to blast point-blank shots into his groin? I'll bet the incident made him think twice about the "tweener" after that! Anyway, I see this tactic as more openly hostile than disrespectful.
(7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other player look foolish.
(8) The "lookaway" half-volley. This is like a basketball variation on the tennis court. Montfils did it against Federer at the last USO, rushing the net and hitting a causal half-volley without even watching the ball. Again, it seems to me this is a practice court shot that shouldn't be used in a real match. Not only is it sloppy, but a slap in the face to an opponent. Extra demerits for doing it to the GOAT!
*skriptis
Jan 1, 2015, 8:01:03 PM1/1/15
to
McEnroe, but I never thought of this shot as disrespectful towards the
oponent. If anything it kinda implies the guy who does it lacks proper
volleying skills. So. No.
> (2) The underhand serve. The first player I recall doing this was
> Lendl vs. Jose-Luis Clerc at some small tournament. Lendl won the
> point and Clerc didn't look pleased with the tactic. Now and then
> Lendl did it against other players too. I don't know if it was just
> meant as a surprise tactic or intended to piss the other player off.
> Knowing Lendl, probably both, though of course Chang famously did it
> against Lendl at the '89 FO. To me it does seem like a disrespectful
> shot.
inheretly disrespectful in it. If it were done as often as drop shot, it
would have been mainstream. Just like the above swinging volley.
Basically I don't think there is any shot that is disrespectful per se. It's
the manner in which you play with someone. Dropshotting someone to death is
most obvious, similarily when Nadal starts pinning Federer to his backhand,
it's something that should probably be considered disrespectful as it
suggests the other gay sucks so much at it than you're best with doing only
that because he is helpless to counter it.
> (3) The drop shot return of serve. Safin did this to Sampras in their
> USO final, and the commentators wondered how Sampras would respond to
> Safin TOYING with him. Federer did it to both Nalbandian and Agassi a
> few years later at the USO. Mac thought it was kind of cruel, and I
> think we had some discussion on RST about it at the time. Many
> thought it was a legit shot, and I guess I agree as long as it is
> used occasionally.
> (4) Moonballing. Again, the occasional moonball can be an effective
> change-up, but when an opponent throws up a whole bunch of them, IMO
> it's disrespectful to both opponent and spectators. Andrea Jaeger
> used to do it to Chris Evert because Jaeger's only hope of winning
> was to bore Chris to death and she knew Evert's overhead was too weak
> to swoop in on the first shallow moonball. My prevailing memory
> though is of Agassi (of course) turning a USO match into a farce by
> hitting dozens of moonballs against Kucera, who ended up beating him
> anyway.
defensive and boring. To an oponent it's no more disrespecful than the above
mentioned examples of Nadal pinning Federer to his backhand or forcing your
oponent out of his comfort zone so much that it eventually starts insulting
him, ie, implying he sucks so much at it, so your best chance to win is to
continue with only one shot. Returning moonballs can be tough, so who can
blame your oponnent for feeding you with them?
> (5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It
> rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should
> remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and
> disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and
> Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
(which he mostly does) I won. Do them as much as you wish, I'll take the
points.
> (6) Aiming directly at an opponent. Some people think this is
> totally legit too, since it isn't against the rules, and can
> discourage an opponent who is too "net happy." Lendl of course was
> most notorious for it. I posted a clip here once of Lendl pounding a
> forehand into Gerulaitis's head as he rushed the net. He also went
> after McEnroe, Connors, and who knows how many others. And who could
> forget Yannick Noah accusing Amos Mansdorf of trying to blast
> point-blank shots into his groin? I'll bet the incident made him
> think twice about the "tweener" after that! Anyway, I see this tactic
> as more openly hostile than disrespectful.
Fair-play is not in the rules, so you don't have to obey it. But if you aim
at your oponent you sure have disqualified yourself for Stefan Edberg
aportmanship award.
> (7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond
> the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit
> it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis
> did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and
> Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly
> disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other
> player look foolish.
not a fair-play breach, but it is hower a clear case of insulting someone,
for the sole purpose of mocking. IMO, much more disgusting than not
following fair-play and aiming at your oponent.
> (8) The "lookaway" half-volley. This is like a basketball variation
> on the tennis court. Montfils did it against Federer at the last USO,
> rushing the net and hitting a causal half-volley without even
> watching the ball. Again, it seems to me this is a practice court
> shot that shouldn't be used in a real match. Not only is it sloppy,
> but a slap in the face to an opponent. Extra demerits for doing it to
> the GOAT!
irrelevant.
Gracchus
Jan 1, 2015, 8:12:34 PM1/1/15
to
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 5:01:03 PM UTC-8, *skriptis wrote:
> > (7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond
> > the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit
> > it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis
> > did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and
> > Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly
> > disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other
> > player look foolish.
>
> Since this is not a shot at all (is it), it can't be in this category? It's
> not a fair-play breach, but it is hower a clear case of insulting someone,
> for the sole purpose of mocking. IMO, much more disgusting than not
> following fair-play and aiming at your oponent.
Ok, technically it's not a shot, but as a faux-shot I decided to include it in the discussion as an extreme case. :)
> Gracchus wrote:
> > (5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It
> > rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should
> > remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and
> > disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and
> > Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
>
> Not at all imo. It's clownish. If it goes in, he's been lucky, if he fails
> (which he mostly does) I won. Do them as much as you wish, I'll take the
> points.
I think it depends on the context. For example, if it's a closely-fought match and you're running back for a lob you know you can't set up for properly, then it's a clownish shot cause you basically think you've already lost the point. But if you are outclassing an opponent, winning effortlessly and hit the tweener, then it's like saying you're so bored by lack of competition that you'll hit a practice court shot cause you know you'll win anyway and have points to spare.
> > (5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It
> > rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should
> > remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and
> > disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and
> > Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
>
> Not at all imo. It's clownish. If it goes in, he's been lucky, if he fails
> (which he mostly does) I won. Do them as much as you wish, I'll take the
> points.
> > (7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond
> > the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit
> > it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis
> > did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and
> > Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly
> > disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other
> > player look foolish.
>
> Since this is not a shot at all (is it), it can't be in this category? It's
> not a fair-play breach, but it is hower a clear case of insulting someone,
> for the sole purpose of mocking. IMO, much more disgusting than not
> following fair-play and aiming at your oponent.
pltrgyst
Jan 1, 2015, 10:25:10 PM1/1/15
to
Simple answer: no.
-- Larry
-- Larry
Fednatic
Jan 1, 2015, 10:50:54 PM1/1/15
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Moonballs. Cowardly and unelegant to say the least.
Gracchus
Jan 2, 2015, 12:53:51 AM1/2/15
to
On Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:25:10 PM UTC-8, pltrgyst wrote:
> Simple answer: no.
>
> -- Larry
When someone buries a volley in your neck the way McEnroe did to Fred Stolle, you might feel otherwise.
> Simple answer: no.
>
> -- Larry
TT
Jan 2, 2015, 2:28:54 AM1/2/15
to
forehand. That can potentially injure your opponent.
Also, everything that Fognini does on court.
Fednatic
Jan 2, 2015, 2:51:43 AM1/2/15
to
Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 3:46:32 AM1/2/15
to
On 2/01/2015 10:47 AM, Gracchus wrote:
> There was recently some brief discussion here about the swing volley and I got to thinking about it. Nowadays many players use it. But when Agassi started using it routinely 20-some years ago, McEnroe said that we he---Mac--was coming up through the ranks, the shot was generally considered an insult. "Look out in the locker room" after the match if you used it against an opponent.
>
> It reminds me of Norman Mailer's commentary in the movie "When We Were Kings," which was about the Foreman-Ali fight in Zaire. Mailer said that a right-handed fighter throwing a right-hand lead implied that he considered his opponent so slow that a counter left hook wasn't even a worry. Supposedly when Ali threw 7-8 right-hand leads in the first round, this infuriated Foreman, who became all the more intent on knocking Ali out quickly, and thus fell into Ali's "Rope-A-Dope" trap.
>
> So I was wondering how many people here think "anything goes" on a tennis court or if there are some shots that really show disrespect for an opponent. Some that come to mind are:
>
> (1) The previously-mentioned swing volley. I think back was Agassi started with it, this was kind of a slap at the opponent--but then Agassi did lots of things like that. Of course, when other players began to adopt it, the swing volley became the "new normal" within a couple of years. IMO it's only disrespectful if executed in a too-causal manner. Otherwise it's just adding extra juice to the volley. Sloppy to a traditionalist perhaps, but ok in terms of propriety.
>
No, this is just the way players volley these days with their inferior
> There was recently some brief discussion here about the swing volley and I got to thinking about it. Nowadays many players use it. But when Agassi started using it routinely 20-some years ago, McEnroe said that we he---Mac--was coming up through the ranks, the shot was generally considered an insult. "Look out in the locker room" after the match if you used it against an opponent.
>
> It reminds me of Norman Mailer's commentary in the movie "When We Were Kings," which was about the Foreman-Ali fight in Zaire. Mailer said that a right-handed fighter throwing a right-hand lead implied that he considered his opponent so slow that a counter left hook wasn't even a worry. Supposedly when Ali threw 7-8 right-hand leads in the first round, this infuriated Foreman, who became all the more intent on knocking Ali out quickly, and thus fell into Ali's "Rope-A-Dope" trap.
>
> So I was wondering how many people here think "anything goes" on a tennis court or if there are some shots that really show disrespect for an opponent. Some that come to mind are:
>
> (1) The previously-mentioned swing volley. I think back was Agassi started with it, this was kind of a slap at the opponent--but then Agassi did lots of things like that. Of course, when other players began to adopt it, the swing volley became the "new normal" within a couple of years. IMO it's only disrespectful if executed in a too-causal manner. Otherwise it's just adding extra juice to the volley. Sloppy to a traditionalist perhaps, but ok in terms of propriety.
>
volleying skills. Nothing disrespectful about it.
> (2) The underhand serve. The first player I recall doing this was Lendl vs. Jose-Luis Clerc at some small tournament. Lendl won the point and Clerc didn't look pleased with the tactic. Now and then Lendl did it against other players too. I don't know if it was just meant as a surprise tactic or intended to piss the other player off. Knowing Lendl, probably both, though of course Chang famously did it against Lendl at the '89 FO. To me it does seem like a disrespectful shot.
>
pros it's legit. You either do it to keep your opponent guessing, or
think he's standing too far back & it's a real chance to win the point
or set up a sitter.
> (3) The drop shot return of serve. Safin did this to Sampras in their USO final, and the commentators wondered how Sampras would respond to Safin TOYING with him. Federer did it to both Nalbandian and Agassi a few years later at the USO. Mac thought it was kind of cruel, and I think we had some discussion on RST about it at the time. Many thought it was a legit shot, and I guess I agree as long as it is used occasionally.
>
return. If it's a poor drop shot you hit the net or set up a sitter for
your opponent. Again it's 100% legit tactic in the pro game.
> (4) Moonballing. Again, the occasional moonball can be an effective change-up, but when an opponent throws up a whole bunch of them, IMO it's disrespectful to both opponent and spectators. Andrea Jaeger used to do it to Chris Evert because Jaeger's only hope of winning was to bore Chris to death and she knew Evert's overhead was too weak to swoop in on the first shallow moonball. My prevailing memory though is of Agassi (of course) turning a USO match into a farce by hitting dozens of moonballs against Kucera, who ended up beating him anyway.
>
certain opponents. I remember playing this guy in doubles comp a few
yrs ago & he was ready to walk off the court as we were bunting the ball
back rather than blasting groundies. I was quite dismayed at his
attitude. Also some of the juniors are insulted when you drop shot
them. A lot of people have very weird ideas about tennis.
> (5) The "tweener." I blame Yannick Noah for popularizing this. It rarely wins the point, so it's nothing but a hot-dog shot that should remain on the practice court because it cheapens a real match and disparages the opponent by implication. Agassi used it a lot and Federer still does sometimes. I wish he wouldn't.
>
The wow factor has long faded for this shot.
> (6) Aiming directly at an opponent. Some people think this is totally legit too, since it isn't against the rules, and can discourage an opponent who is too "net happy." Lendl of course was most notorious for it. I posted a clip here once of Lendl pounding a forehand into Gerulaitis's head as he rushed the net. He also went after McEnroe, Connors, and who knows how many others. And who could forget Yannick Noah accusing Amos Mansdorf of trying to blast point-blank shots into his groin? I'll bet the incident made him think twice about the "tweener" after that! Anyway, I see this tactic as more openly hostile than disrespectful.
>
often happens inadvertently. I don't back off on the volley, & always
apologize if it hits my opponent ('sorry I was aiming down the middle'
blah blah)...
> (7) The deliberate "whiff" shot. This is when you hit a shot beyond the baseline and the opponent takes a swing as if he/she plans to hit it but then deliberately misses it and does a shadow swing. Hingis did this to Venus Williams the first time they played at the USO and Agassi did it to Baghdatis, also at the USO. IMO this is blatantly disrespectful since it serves no purpose other than to make the other player look foolish.
certain circumstances. In my experience it's usually the player just
happy to win the point rather than mocking you. But even if mocking it
wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
>
> (8) The "lookaway" half-volley. This is like a basketball variation on the tennis court. Montfils did it against Federer at the last USO, rushing the net and hitting a causal half-volley without even watching the ball. Again, it seems to me this is a practice court shot that shouldn't be used in a real match. Not only is it sloppy, but a slap in the face to an opponent. Extra demerits for doing it to the GOAT!
>
The variation is looking to your right while hitting the volley to
your left for eg. Often it fools your opponent. Takes some skill & is
not insulting your opponent, rather demonstrating your skill.
Another tactic you could have added is eg hitting an approach shot &
moving to your right as you approach the net so that your opponent sees
where you're going, & then darting back to your left at the last moment
to intercept your opponent's shot. I use this tactic all the time & most
players keep falling for it repeatedly. Not surprising I guess as it's
hard to spot the fake.
For the record I don't see this as 'disrespective', but you probably
would given the above.
Gracchus
Jan 2, 2015, 3:58:17 AM1/2/15
to
On Friday, January 2, 2015 12:46:32 AM UTC-8, Whisper wrote:
> This is a legit shot. McEnroe did it all the time & I do it regularly.
> The variation is looking to your right while hitting the volley to
> your left for eg. Often it fools your opponent. Takes some skill & is
> not insulting your opponent, rather demonstrating your skill.
>
> Another tactic you could have added is eg hitting an approach shot &
> moving to your right as you approach the net so that your opponent sees
> where you're going, & then darting back to your left at the last moment
> to intercept your opponent's shot. I use this tactic all the time & most
> players keep falling for it repeatedly. Not surprising I guess as it's
> hard to spot the fake.
>
> For the record I don't see this as 'disrespective', but you probably
> would given the above.
No, I don't think that type of fake is disrespectful any more than poaching in doubles would be, or sneaking into the net without hitting a typical approach shot. I think I made clear in my previous comments that IMO disrespect lies in trying deliberately to make your opponent look foolish or imply that his/her abilities are so inferior that you can hit goofy low-percentage flash shots and still win.
> This is a legit shot. McEnroe did it all the time & I do it regularly.
> The variation is looking to your right while hitting the volley to
> your left for eg. Often it fools your opponent. Takes some skill & is
> not insulting your opponent, rather demonstrating your skill.
>
> Another tactic you could have added is eg hitting an approach shot &
> moving to your right as you approach the net so that your opponent sees
> where you're going, & then darting back to your left at the last moment
> to intercept your opponent's shot. I use this tactic all the time & most
> players keep falling for it repeatedly. Not surprising I guess as it's
> hard to spot the fake.
>
> For the record I don't see this as 'disrespective', but you probably
> would given the above.
Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 4:27:07 AM1/2/15
to
Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 4:35:43 AM1/2/15
to
be legit attempts to win the point fairly (within the rules).
Perhaps screaming 'Come on!' when your opponent double faults? Lleyton
did this quite often, though I'm sure he wasn't doing it to disrespect
his opponent rather excited at the prospect of winning the game.
Gracchus
Jan 2, 2015, 12:28:27 PM1/2/15
to
On Friday, January 2, 2015 1:35:43 AM UTC-8, Whisper wrote:
> Perhaps screaming 'Come on!' when your opponent double faults? Lleyton
> did this quite often, though I'm sure he wasn't doing it to disrespect
> his opponent rather excited at the prospect of winning the game.
When Hewitt started out, I believe the "Come on!" cries were enthusiasm, but later on it was gamesmanship without a doubt. Even a kid knows that doing that on an opponent's double fault is very bad form. But that leads to the different but related question of whether gamesmanship is necessarily disrespectful. IMO that too depends on the circumstances.
> Perhaps screaming 'Come on!' when your opponent double faults? Lleyton
> did this quite often, though I'm sure he wasn't doing it to disrespect
> his opponent rather excited at the prospect of winning the game.
pltrgyst
Jan 2, 2015, 3:05:39 PM1/2/15
to
On 1/2/15 12:53 AM, Gracchus wrote:
> On Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:25:10 PM UTC-8, pltrgyst wrote:
>> Simple answer: no.
>
> On Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:25:10 PM UTC-8, pltrgyst wrote:
>> Simple answer: no.
>
> When someone buries a volley in your neck the way McEnroe did to Fred Stolle, you might feel otherwise.
I've been nailed before, by both my partner and an opponent, and it will
happen again. Respect has nothing to do with it, apart from respect for
the game. If you respect the game, you play hard all the time.
Hell, I hot my wife in the eye last Saturday playing mixed doubles (not
a joke). Scared the shit out of me.
If you play the net, you take your lumps.
-- Larry
Gracchus
Jan 2, 2015, 3:35:33 PM1/2/15
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griff...@hotmail.com
Jan 2, 2015, 4:27:12 PM1/2/15
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Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 5:17:04 PM1/2/15
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no penalty under certain circumstances, while someone else can get life
or the death penalty. The end result is still the same for the 'victim'.
Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 5:35:45 PM1/2/15
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back of my hand while both going for a smash (huge lump/bruise) etc. A
friend had to be rushed to hospital in an ambulance after also copping a
smash in his nuts.
Injuries in tennis are statistically minimal so you just accept it as
part of the game.
Whisper
Jan 2, 2015, 5:40:49 PM1/2/15
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hit Fred, but for the unintentional hurt caused. Sure why apologize if
it wasn't intentional, but it is the sporting/right thing to do - unless
you really take pleasure at someone else's pain. Then you're a nob.
Also Newk shouldn't have demanded Mac show respect. That's totally up
to Mac & what kind of character he has.
Gracchus
Jan 2, 2015, 6:37:51 PM1/2/15
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On Friday, January 2, 2015 2:40:49 PM UTC-8, Whisper wrote:
> Mac should have apologized, not because he was reckless or intended to
> hit Fred, but for the unintentional hurt caused. Sure why apologize if
> it wasn't intentional, but it is the sporting/right thing to do - unless
> you really take pleasure at someone else's pain. Then you're a nob.
>
> Also Newk shouldn't have demanded Mac show respect. That's totally up
> to Mac & what kind of character he has.
I was just reading up on that match and it seems there was some backstory. Mac was pissed at a newspaper interview Newcombe had recently done criticizing some of the younger players. I guess he then decided he'd go at either of the opposing team given the chance in that match and he'd tried to hit Newcombe prior to the shot into Fred's neck.
> Mac should have apologized, not because he was reckless or intended to
> hit Fred, but for the unintentional hurt caused. Sure why apologize if
> it wasn't intentional, but it is the sporting/right thing to do - unless
> you really take pleasure at someone else's pain. Then you're a nob.
>
> Also Newk shouldn't have demanded Mac show respect. That's totally up
> to Mac & what kind of character he has.
Soon after that point, Newcombe approaches Mac and says, "If you fuckin' do that again to Fred,I'm gonna fuckin' kill ya,McEnroe. Got it? I'm gonna fuckin' kill ya."
So it looks like #1, it *was* clearly intentional, and #2, Newk and Stolle weren't seeing the incident as just part of the sport as it's played.
http://kierancarroll.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/newk-the-john-newcombe-story-78.pdf
Ted Schuerzinger
Jan 3, 2015, 3:06:28 PM1/3/15
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On Fri, 2 Jan 2015 12:35:31 -0800 (PST), Gracchus wrote:
> And that's because your primary aim is to win the point rather than
> bore a hole in someone out of malice or intent to intimidate.
If I hit my opponent, I get the point. That having been said, there are
> And that's because your primary aim is to win the point rather than
> bore a hole in someone out of malice or intent to intimidate.
some players I'd be more likely to want to hit at than others.
--
Ted S.
fedya at hughes dot net
Now blogging at http://justacineast.blogspot.com
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