Junkball artists
r...@brainlink.com
I've come up against my first real junkball artist. He's a
very good tennis player with an awful lot of time in on a
squash court. His strokes are very short, very compact,
and almost impossible for me to read in advance.
His style of play is very unusual for me, in that every ball
he hits has a different look than the last ball. Even on
serves, he'll hit one hard and flat up the middle, and the
next one will have so much junk on it it'll barely make it
over the net before dipping down and bouncing frigging
sideways. I can't tell what's coming from his motion, either:
he has the most extremely abbreviated service toss and
stroke I've ever seen in my life.
He's driving me nuts. :)
I know I can beat him, though, if I just do the right thing.
At the moment, however, I can't figure out what the "right
thing" consists of.
Anybody else dealt with a junkball artist before?
Richard
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Steve Barnard
I've met many, many "junkball" artists. Some of my opponents even
consider *me* to be a junkball artist. (I think of myself as a "big
hitter." :-))
Possibly the greatest junkball artist of all time was Bobby Riggs. It
made him a lot of money, along with several major titles.
There is a type of athlete (I consider myself to be of this type) who
can perform a weird trick (like a "junkball" tennis shot) exactly once,
perfectly. This type of player is typically very poor at executing
consistent shots time after time. I know I am. I like to hit very
peculiar shots when they're least expected, and I save some of my best
ones for big points.
The "junkball" artist relies on surprise and on disrupting your rhythm.
It is *not* the same as pushing. A good "junkball" artist will mix up
hard shots and soft shots. The key is to never allow the opponent to
settle into his preferred pattern of play.
I know this won't help, but you just have to learn to deal with it. If
this "junkball" artist can beat you consistently then he's better than
you. I have a hard time against a very consistent, hard-hitting
player. (Who doesn't?) If you can't hit junk then you have to learn to
overpower the junkball opponent and/or to be more consistent.
Steve Barnard
Nigel Fowler
r...@brainlink.com wrote:
: His style of play is very unusual for me, in that every ball
: he hits has a different look than the last ball. Even on
: serves, he'll hit one hard and flat up the middle, and the
: next one will have so much junk on it it'll barely make it
: over the net before dipping down and bouncing frigging
: sideways. I can't tell what's coming from his motion, either:
: he has the most extremely abbreviated service toss and
: stroke I've ever seen in my life.
: Anybody else dealt with a junkball artist before?
I've found that they find heaps of topspin difficult to
deal with.
Nigel
Greg Chamberlain
On 8 Jan 1997 03:30:29 GMT, nig...@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au (Nigel
Fowler) wrote:
>
>I've found that they find heaps of topspin difficult to
>deal with.
>
>Nigel
I'll have to say I agree with him as well. Top on the ball will
atleast force him to deal with that, and keep him less likely from
making his own junk returns as effective, if at all in some cases.
Heck he might even want to hit a few shots with side-spin, as well as
slicing his backhand to break his thought process up a bit first off.
Next, take this guy out of his comfort zone!!!.. THIS IS A MUST!!!!
Instad of trying say to outpower this guy with deep baselined shots
(which he probably like by the way), try hittting deep to a corner to
force him back in the court. Then at mix this with very short soft
paced shots just low over the net.
What this might create is a break in his play, since he'll hit to deep
shots to push him to once side, then change to the short ball to the
oppsite side (prefferably inside the service court and angled a bit)
to draw the junker into the court, opening up the other side of the
court as a place for a winner hopefully. Making sure the shot is low
and slow ensures that he'll more than likely be returning the ball
below the level of the net, which will add to taking him out of his
comfort zone as well, and possibley force a mistake or a weak return
you can exploit to win points.
By mixing this with his regular game he should be able to create a
situation, that will keep this guy wondering ----"WHATS NEXT!!"
Also you mentioned this guys serve dust dipping the net quite often.
Well if he not reeeeeeeal consistant, try standing well inisde the
baseline to indidate him into serving a BOMB at you cuse he see you
there, and you might be able to force a fault, then it more than
likely he'll try to place alot of spin on the ball, and you be inside
the baseline to catch it early.
Also wondering if this junker is a lefty right now since he mention
serves running away from him in the court. I'm one, and tend to spin
the ball from right to left, so when it hits the court its more than
likely on a mission to walk away from a right-handed player
The one thing I've have noticed with pushers and junk ballers tho, is
that there is always a displayed pattern to thier playing style.
We really all have things we like to do to setup a winning point!!
Realizing some of his will help take some of the sting out of his
sails imho as well. You won't have to out guess him then, all you have
to do is out play this guy. ....Just one thing to concentrate on,
rather than wondering what this guy is about to feed you next.
Kirk Leach
r...@brainlink.com wrote:
>I've come up against my first real junkball artist. He's a
>very good tennis player with an awful lot of time in on a
>squash court. His strokes are very short, very compact,
>and almost impossible for me to read in advance.
>His style of play is very unusual for me, in that every ball
>he hits has a different look than the last ball. Even on
>serves, he'll hit one hard and flat up the middle, and the
>next one will have so much junk on it it'll barely make it
>over the net before dipping down and bouncing frigging
>sideways. I can't tell what's coming from his motion, either:
>he has the most extremely abbreviated service toss and
>stroke I've ever seen in my life.
>He's driving me nuts. :)
>I know I can beat him, though, if I just do the right thing.
>At the moment, however, I can't figure out what the "right
>thing" consists of.
>Anybody else dealt with a junkball artist before?
>Richard
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
The worst thing you can do, IMO, is try to change your game
substantially in order to deal with someone who has an unorthodox
style. Your best bet is just to try to play him as much as possible
(if you can stand it). Eventually you should be able to read what he
is going to do well enough that it won't throw your game off. Good
luck!
Kirk
P.S. But what do I know, I'm just a 4.0 weekend warrior :)
Greg Chamberlain
On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:42:07 GMT, kir...@sprynet.com (Kirk Leach)
wrote:
>The worst thing you can do, IMO, is try to change your game
>substantially in order to deal with someone who has an unorthodox
>style. Your best bet is just to try to play him as much as possible
>(if you can stand it). Eventually you should be able to read what he
>is going to do well enough that it won't throw your game off. Good
>luck!
>
>Kirk
>
From what I can see most are only talikng slight modification to his
game, with stroke that most likely already existing in his game. Seems
from what I've gathered that his normal game plan has failed several
times thus far, and that why he is here asking for tactics imho.
>P.S. But what do I know, I'm just a 4.0 weekend warrior :)
Same here only been playing this game since I was 10yr old.
Now I'm 42!!---- Maaaaaaan, time flies when ur having fun!
>
>
David Mandell
r...@brainlink.com wrote:
>I've come up against my first real junkball artist. He's a
>very good tennis player with an awful lot of time in on a
>squash court. His strokes are very short, very compact,
>and almost impossible for me to read in advance.
>His style of play is very unusual for me, in that every ball
>he hits has a different look than the last ball. Even on
>serves, he'll hit one hard and flat up the middle, and the
>next one will have so much junk on it it'll barely make it
>over the net before dipping down and bouncing frigging
>sideways. I can't tell what's coming from his motion, either:
>he has the most extremely abbreviated service toss and
>stroke I've ever seen in my life.
>He's driving me nuts. :)
>I know I can beat him, though, if I just do the right thing.
>At the moment, however, I can't figure out what the "right
>thing" consists of.
>Anybody else dealt with a junkball artist before?
>Richard
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Get a videotape of Lendl vs Krishnan at Wimbledon, late eighties.
Krishnan hit tons of junk. Lendl just used brute force to overpower
him. It's the only way to do it. Krishnan won lots of matches with his
junk. Lendl went right at him rather than try to rally with him.
Dar
r...@brainlink.com wrote:
> Anybody else dealt with a junkball artist before?
I have problems with these kind of players too. What I try to do is
remined myself to concentrate on the ball, and not the weird mannerisms,
swings, etc., of the player. Once I focus on the ball, it is a matter of
keeping on my toes so that I can react to it.
Beyond that, I try to keep the ball deep and, perhaps, approach a bit more
than usual if their junk shots seem to be of the short and/or floating
variety.
dar
-------------------------
Will play tennis for food.
-------------------------
Auraears
Hello,
"Junkballing", "Pushing"......Ahhh, time honored tennis traditions.
Basically both the junkballer and pusher rely heavily on YOUR frustration.
They junk (or push, or dink, or whatever) and you grow tired, angry, and
then promptly lose it......am I guessing right here??
So first, take a deep breath, relax, and face the fact that beating this
guy may be tough and might take a while. Then procede to play each point
individually, staying within your game while probing his armor for
weaknesses. Look at his grips......hum, that heavy westernforehand grip
might prove tough on low, off paced shots out wide......huh, that nifty
slice dropper is much harder to hit when the ball is at shoulder height or
above every shot.....gee, he's really getting pissed off when I NEVER hit
a ball to his forehand (or backhand, or whatever). Oh, and BTW, the
longer you keep him out there, and the more he has to run, the more the
great enemy of the touch man, the evil force of fatigue, will set in!!
Second, keep in mind to "junk" one must first set up. Try hitting a
feathered drop shot on the run or a topspin lob at full gallop, and you'll
see why this is so. Therefore, don't let him set up! Try moving him, but
doing so w/ high percentage, consistent, FIRM, but NOT necessarily
especially hard shots. And when you have him on the run, MOVE IN!! Take
the ball out of the air and further reduce the time he has to respond.
Soon he'll be tiring, and tired guys don't hit too many great touch shots,
OK? AND many (OK, not all, but many) touch and junk men tend to float a
lot of balls, so you'll just love smacking away a few winners from that
net position which you now occupy!!
Let me know how it goes,
Auraears
LCHUI
Hi,
I agree with David Mandell
> Get a videotape of Lendl vs Krishnan at Wimbledon, late eighties.
> Krishnan hit tons of junk. Lendl just used brute force to overpower
> him. It's the only way to do it. Krishnan won lots of matches with his
> junk. Lendl went right at him rather than try to rally with him.
Unlike table tennis, spin plays a much lesser role in tennis; the
above statement is true for current tennis rackets. For grass courts,
more attension has to be devoted on control; or try to volley more to
minimize the effect of variation of pace.
Given the rules of the current rules on stringing rackets, (i.e.
no spagatti or cross stringing), I do not foresee "jung" players play any
important role in championship tennis; although "change of pace" is
important for all Championship players.
Michael Chang has reached and kept his #2 spot for a long time
without relatively big serves; he relies on control with change of
pace...
Lim
Lim
Steve Barnard
Auraears wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> "Junkballing", "Pushing"......Ahhh, time honored tennis traditions.
>
This brings up the question of the difference between "junkballing" and
"pushing," if in fact there is any difference. I think there is.
To me a pusher is someone who just gets the ball back in play with no
particular "juice" -- no extreme spin and no pace. He usually relies on
his opponent overhitting and eventually making the error.
A junkballer is someone who uses extreme spin of different varieties and
tries to avoid giving his opponent a consistent kind of ball to hit. He
will also mix up the pace and hit a variety of shots, including drop
shots and lobs. He relies on keeping his opponent guessing and keeping
him out of a rhythm.
I have fun playing against junkballers and I don't have fun playing
against pushers (if they're good at it).
Steve Barnard
Kwansik Kim
Auraears wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> "Junkballing", "Pushing"......Ahhh, time honored tennis traditions.
>
[snip]
> This brings up the question of the difference between "junkballing" and
> "pushing," if in fact there is any difference. I think there is.
> To me a pusher is someone who just gets the ball back in play with no
> particular "juice" -- no extreme spin and no pace. He usually relies on
> his opponent overhitting and eventually making the error.
> A junkballer is someone who uses extreme spin of different varieties and
> tries to avoid giving his opponent a consistent kind of ball to hit. He
> will also mix up the pace and hit a variety of shots, including drop
> shots and lobs. He relies on keeping his opponent guessing and keeping
> him out of a rhythm.
I agree. J's are offensive and P's are not(I mean the playing style).
> I have fun playing against junkballers and I don't have fun playing
> against pushers (if they're good at it).
> Steve Barnard
When I play P's, I'm usually disgusted with myself.
When I play J's, I hate them as humanbeings. :->
However, I feel like it must not be easy to be a serious J's
although anyone can play P's.
Kwansik
--
---
Kwansik Kim * mailto:k...@cse.ucsc.edu * http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~ksk *
Greg Chamberlain
>
>This brings up the question of the difference between "junkballing" and
>"pushing," if in fact there is any difference. I think there is.
>
>To me a pusher is someone who just gets the ball back in play with no
>particular "juice" -- no extreme spin and no pace. He usually relies on
>his opponent overhitting and eventually making the error.
>
>A junkballer is someone who uses extreme spin of different varieties and
>tries to avoid giving his opponent a consistent kind of ball to hit. He
>will also mix up the pace and hit a variety of shots, including drop
>shots and lobs. He relies on keeping his opponent guessing and keeping
>him out of a rhythm.
>
>I have fun playing against junkballers and I don't have fun playing
>against pushers (if they're good at it).
>
> Steve Barnard
Thats my definitions of the two as well.--------There is a diff in the
two!
Donal Fagan
>However, I feel like it must not be easy to be a serious J's
>although anyone can play P's.
I agree and disagree about dinkers. Deciding to dink (or push) is easy; this
strategy may work well against average players. Being an effective dinker at
higher levels of play requires a lot more patience and concentration than most
people have. My friend Dan is sort of a dinker, he hits short, angled underspin
shots and, if you approach, then lobs and passes you to death. Since he easily
beats the B leaguers, he has chosen to play in the A league. There, he usually
loses, but he appreciates the competition.
Many years ago, during my first summer league, I lost a league match to a guy
who did nothing but return all my shots with medium lobs. I found out that my
overheads were really poor.
A few years later, I observed a dinker beating ... correction, I observed some
people losing to dinker at a local public court. Eventually, I was there and he
asked me to play. I chose to follow Braden's advice: staying back, keeping the
ball in play, drawing him in occasionally with low short shots and lobbing or
hitting hard low shots right at him if he came to the net. It was great, I
frustrated him. Without errors from me, his game fell apart.
I lost to one dinker the first time we played. It was a club league match,
first to win nine games. Since then I played him twice and played exactly as
Braden recommends. I didn't overwhelm him, but I stayed out in front. He had a
fairly sound game but again, without errors from me, he didn't win more points
than I did.
I liked beating and hated losing to these guys, but it felt strange to never
hit the kind of shots that I particularly enjoy. It felt like a different game.
I don't think I could stand playing that way against everyone.
Donal Fagan
Charles Lin
LCHUI (LC...@mailgw.sanders.lockheed.com) wrote:
|| Unlike table tennis, spin plays a much lesser role in tennis; the
|| above statement is true for current tennis rackets. For grass courts,
|| more attension has to be devoted on control; or try to volley more to
|| minimize the effect of variation of pace.
Ummm, I wouldn't say that's entirely true. The main effect
of spin in table tennis is how it interacts with your bat. You
have to notice the spin being applied (esp. sidespin and underspin)
and how much spin is being applied. Shots that appear very similar
may have differing degrees of spin in table tennis.
In tennis, the spin affects how the ball travels in the air
as well as how it kicks off the ground. Hence, a heavy topspin
shot will drive up as soon as hits the ground, and take more of
an arc in the air while a slice shot is usually aimed low and
comes off somewhat lower off the ground. In a serve, a slice
shot (sidespin w some topspin) will "curve" the ball to the left
or right depending on how it's applied and a good topspin serve
will leave the receiver hitting returns at shoulder height.
The main effect of spin in tennis is therefore the trajectory
of the ball as well as the path it takes as opposed to table tennis
where it's the spin's reaction with a bat that plays a more important
role. Now, I'd probably say that in table tennis one can generate
a lot more spin than tennis (i.e., in terms of revolutions per
second) but since the ball is smooth, the trajectory is affected
less. In tennis, the fuzz and grooves of the ball plus the
mass probably makes the spin's effect more pronounced.
--
Charles Lin
cl...@cs.umd.edu
Predrag Rakic
Charles Lin wrote:
>
> Now, I'd probably say that in table tennis one can generate
> a lot more spin than tennis (i.e., in terms of revolutions per
> second)
Deffinitely
> but since the ball is smooth, the trajectory is affected
> less. In tennis, the fuzz and grooves of the ball plus the
> mass probably makes the spin's effect more pronounced.
You have to be kidding. Table tennis is all about spin. Since the ball
is much lighter than tennis ball Max effect is more pronounced in table
tennis than in tennis. And because of the lesser weight of the ball,
spin effect is much more pronounced on the contact between the
ball and the table so some incredible trajectories are performed.
Why do you think Serve is so important in table tennis?
Regards, Predrag
Charles Lin
Predrag Rakic ("102032,3150"@compuserve.com) wrote:
|| Why do you think Serve is so important in table tennis?
I think serve is far more important in tennis, actually.
Part of it is the scoring system, though. In tennis, a player
is expected to hold serve every time. If a match has more
breaks than holds, it's typically considered a bad match.
Admittedly, a match where everyone holds serve can be likewise
boring. In tennis, you can hit 30 aces in a match. In
table tennis, a player can usually return back most serves.
Aces are far less common.
I've heard that in table tennis, the serve expects to win
3 points in 5 when serving. A good tennis server can win
4 points in 5 with their first serve. I don't doubt that
serve is important in table tennis, but I think it's more
important in tennis.
--
Charles Lin
cl...@cs.umd.edu
James Kershaw
In article <5bf6ev$2...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, cl...@cs.umd.edu says...
I've played a fair bit of table tennis, and much more tennis.
My take is that a solid serve in tennis is vital, but an
excellent serve in table tennis is just as vital.
You are right about the 3/5 match up in table tennis (except that
a good server will expect 4/5 or 5/5), also
that aces don't exist (how can they when you can reach every serve
without moving). What is CRITICAL in a table tennis serve is that
it sets up the style of point - that way the server can control the
type of game during their five serves. Free points are also available
through spin - the serve is no ace, but the return floats wide of the
table, in to the net, or pops up for an easy smash. (Disguise is critical
to achieve any of these results.)
So in a tennis match the server can win a few easy points with a good serve,
and maybe even tend to control the style of point - providing the returner
follows a pattern (eg chip backhand return). The difference between winning
3/5 or 4/5 points in a tennis match is basically nothing - you have to
break your opponent to win.
In table tennis the difference between 3/5 and 4/5 points on serve is a big
one - very easily determines the winner since each point counts. Also the
returner has very little scope for controlling the style of point in the
first five shots.
Table tennis rewards good serving more than tennis.
James.
Predrag Rakic
Charles Lin wrote:
> In tennis, a player is expected to hold serve every time.
Nope. In tennis it is desirable to hold every service game.
> In table tennis, a player can usually return back most serves.
> Aces are far less common.
First, I would like you to try to return my serve in table tennis.
For every one that you return on the table I will give you ten dollars
For every one that you don't return you give me one dollar.
How does that grab you?
Second, there are no aces in table tennis because the speed like in tennis
cannot be achieved in serve and the aiming area is slightly smaller, don't you
think?
Third, originally this thread started about spin.
> I've heard that in table tennis, the serve expects to win
> 3 points in 5 when serving.
Good server in table tennis often wins 5 of 5.
You never played table tennis, did you?
Regards, Predrag
LCHUI
Hi,
Just to add to what Predrag Rakic wrote:
> > In table tennis, a player can usually return back most serves.
> > Aces are far less common.
> Second, there are no aces in table tennis because the speed like in tennis
> cannot be achieved in serve and the aiming area is slightly smaller,
> Can you imagine how many aces in TT if it is served like tennis?
Can you imagine how much of a disadvantage to the server if
tennis is served like TT?
Also I have seen accational aces in World Class TT competitions
(in spite of the restrictions of the TT service rules and the small TT
Table area relative to a 6+ feet player - why, lot of speed and spin on
the TT serve). I have often been aced (by former Champions, I am not
good enough to compete with the best) even though I am a good TT player.
I am pretty sure I can ace 90% of all tennis players on over 30%
of my fast serves; whereas I don't believe many good tennis players can
ace me. (Occasionally I have been asked to play Doubles in the Company A
league Tennis with a few NE 45+ rank players even though I don't play or
practice tennis - I fool around a few times in Doubles a year as
substitutes and hold my own grounds. Tennis is much simpler than TT and
does not offer anything close to the sophistication, excitement and
challenge of TT to me.
Lim
Lim