Monica Seles dominated Steffi Graf before the stabbing!
Women's Tennis
stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan for ranking #1.
Yes, Seles had a winning advantage over Graf head to head in the years
1990-1993 .. so did Navratilova .. but that only tells part of the
story.
The 12 biggest events in women's tennis from the 1990 WTA Tour
Championships through the 1993 Australian Open:
1990 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Gabriela Sabatini).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Sabatini in straight sets.)
1991 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Jana Novotna).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).
1991 French
MONICA SELES WON (over Arantxa Sanchez Vicario).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to ASV in straight sets).
1991 Wimbledon
MONICA SELES DID NOT PLAY
STEFF GRAF WON (over Gabriela Sabatini 8-6 in the 3rd).
1991 U.S. Open
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Martina Navratilova).
1991 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).
1992 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Mary Joe Fernandez).
STEFF GRAF DID NOT PLAY.
1992 French
MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).
1992 Wimbledon
MONICA SELES LOST IN THE FINAL (to Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF WON (over Monica Seles).
1992 U.S. Open
MONICA SELES WON (over ASV).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to ASV in straight sets).
1992 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN FIRST ROUND (to Lori McNeal).
1993 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).
In these 12 major events between the end of 1990 and the stabbing of
Monica Seles by a Steffi Graf fan ...
Monica Seles:
• entered 11 of the 12 events.
• won 10 of the 12 events.
• reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.
Steffi Graf:
• entered 11 of the 12 events.
• won 2 of the 12 events.
• reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
• lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.
In addition to going 2-1 vs. Graf in these 12 big women's tournaments
between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... Seles also had 5 wins in
the final round of these big events over players who had beaten Graf
in either the semis or quarters of the same event (Sabatini ...
Novotna ... Navratilova ... and ASV twice).
So ... yes, Seles had the winning edge head to head over Graf in
1990-1993 just as Navratilova did ... but Seles was also beating
players who had also beaten Graf in the semis and quarters of the big
events Graf was losing.
Raja
Steffi Graf leads SelezzzzzzZZZZZ 10-5. Theory debunked..next!
Women's Tennis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Early 1990s .. Monica Seles dominated Graf .. Seles won the first 2
matches played vs. Graf in the 1990s and Seles won the last match that
was played vs. Graf.
Of course, a Graf fan was needed to place a knife blade in the back of
Monica Seles to end this domination.
During the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 both Monica Seles and
Martina Navratilova had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf.
1990-05-14
Berlin Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 6-3
1990-05-28
Roland Garros Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 7-6 6-4
1991-03-25
San Antonio Hardcourt - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 6-3
1991-04-29
Hamburg Clay - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-7 6-3
1992-05-25
Roland Garros Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 3-6 10-8
1992-06-22
Wimbledon Grass - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-1
1993-01-18
Australian Open Hardcourt - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
Calimero
So had Sabatini.
Which tells us what ... ?
Max
jdeluise
I really liked Seles (more than Graf), but to say that she would have beaten
Graf year after year despite the stabbings is a bit naive.
bob
"Calimero" <calim...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:becc3d04-cd1a-4474...@q14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> > > � won 10 of the 12 events.
> > > � reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.
>
> > > Steffi Graf:
>
> > > � entered 11 of the 12 events.
> > > � won 2 of the 12 events.
> > > � reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
> > > � lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.
>
> > > In addition to going 2-1 vs. Graf in these 12 big women's tournaments
> > > between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... Seles also had 5 wins in
> > > the final round of these big events over players who had beaten Graf
> > > in either the semis or quarters of the same event (Sabatini ...
> > > Novotna ... Navratilova ... and ASV twice).
>
> > > So ... yes, Seles had the winning edge head to head over Graf in
> > > 1990-1993 just as Navratilova did ... but Seles was also beating
> > > players who had also beaten Graf in the semis and quarters of the big
> > > events Graf was losing.
>
> > Steffi Graf leads SelezzzzzzZZZZZ 10-5. Theory debunked..next!- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Early 1990s .. Monica Seles dominated Graf .. Seles won the first 2
> matches played vs. Graf in the 1990s and Seles won the last match that
> was played vs. Graf.
>
> Of course, a Graf fan was needed to place a knife blade in the back of
> Monica Seles to end this domination.
>
> During the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 both Monica Seles and
> Martina Navratilova had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf. ...
>So had Sabatini. Which tells us what ... ?
steffi wasn't playing her best tennis. but WHY is the question that nobody
can answer.
we can make guesses.....
bob
Calimero
> "Calimero" <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> > > > • won 10 of the 12 events.
> > > > • reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.
>
> > > > Steffi Graf:
>
> > > > • entered 11 of the 12 events.
> > > > • won 2 of the 12 events.
> > > > • reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
> > > > • lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.
>
> > > > In addition to going 2-1 vs. Graf in these 12 big women's tournaments
> > > > between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... Seles also had 5 wins in
> > > > the final round of these big events over players who had beaten Graf
> > > > in either the semis or quarters of the same event (Sabatini ...
> > > > Novotna ... Navratilova ... and ASV twice).
>
> > > > So ... yes, Seles had the winning edge head to head over Graf in
> > > > 1990-1993 just as Navratilova did ... but Seles was also beating
> > > > players who had also beaten Graf in the semis and quarters of the big
> > > > events Graf was losing.
>
> > > Steffi Graf leads SelezzzzzzZZZZZ 10-5. Theory debunked..next!- Hide
> > > quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Early 1990s .. Monica Seles dominated Graf .. Seles won the first 2
> > matches played vs. Graf in the 1990s and Seles won the last match that
> > was played vs. Graf.
>
> > Of course, a Graf fan was needed to place a knife blade in the back of
> > Monica Seles to end this domination.
>
> > During the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 both Monica Seles and
> > Martina Navratilova had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf. ...
> >So had Sabatini. Which tells us what ... ?
>
> steffi wasn't playing her best tennis. but WHY is the question that nobody
> can answer.
> we can make guesses.....
>
> bob
Or we can simply read what she said herself.
Max
bob
> > > > � won 10 of the 12 events.
> > > > � reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.
>
> > > > Steffi Graf:
>
> > > > � entered 11 of the 12 events.
> > > > � won 2 of the 12 events.
> > > > � reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
> > > > � lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.
honest as she may be, i have a hard time with taking a player's word - it'd
be like asking fed if he lost FO final because lights were low.
we need to think about logical explanations too......can you think of any
other scenario or combinations of scenarios besides her dad's playboy bunny?
bob
StephenJ
> we need to think about logical explanations too......can you think of
> any other scenario or combinations of scenarios besides her dad's
> playboy bunny?
that's not a logical scenario, since she won all 3 blue-chip slams in
95-96 when her dad was under a far more serious cloud of scandal.
so if you're looking to logic, here's the obvious explanation: graf's
game and results suffered between 90-93 because she was mentally cowed.
She had been surpassed, wasn't the best anymore. Which not only affected
her confidence, but also gave her top opponents more confidence when
playing her because they could smell the vulnerability.
In short, she'd lost her aura. Call it a "Seles slump". LOL.
--
The Constitution does not prohibit legislatures from
enacting stupid laws.
- Thurgood Marshall
Stella Nadal
>
> - Show quoted text -
Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
the heart of her career.
- Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
Richard Eich
> Seles dominated women's tennis in the early 1990s before she was
> stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan for ranking #1.
Get a life.
Calimero
> > bob wrote:
> > we need to think about logical explanations too......can you think of
> > any other scenario or combinations of scenarios besides her dad's
> > playboy bunny?
>
> that's not a logical scenario, since she won all 3 blue-chip slams in
> 95-96 when her dad was under a far more serious cloud of scandal.
>
> so if you're looking to logic, here's the obvious explanation: graf's
> game and results suffered between 90-93 because she was mentally cowed.
> She had been surpassed, wasn't the best anymore. Which not only affected
> her confidence, but also gave her top opponents more confidence when
> playing her because they could smell the vulnerability.
>
> In short, she'd lost her aura. Call it a "Seles slump". LOL.
Graf didn't lose even ONE match against Seles from July 1990 until May
1992.
But 8 against Sabatini,
And 3 against Novotna.
Max
Calimero
Neither was Navratilova. She was not #1 from July 1980 until May 1982.
At age 23-25 ...
Max
Women's Tennis
But 8 against Sabatini?
In the 30 months (2.5 years) before Seles was stabbed in the back with
a knife by a Steffi Graf fan, Seles had won 10 of the last 12 majors
(Slams and Tour Championships) beginning with the WTA Tour
Championships in 1990.
MONICA SELES' TITLES STEFFI GRAF'S TITLES
1990 WTA Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
____________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 WTA Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
____________________________1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 WTA Championships
1993 Australian Open
Seles did not play Wimbledon in 1991 and she was runnerup to Graf at
Wimbledon in 1992.
In the 30 months (end of 1990 until the stabbing in April 1993)
Sabatini only won 10 titles while Seles won 23.
YEAR END RANKINGS 1991 and 1992:
1991
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
6. Jennifer Capriati
7. Jana Novotna
8. Mary Joe Fernandez
9. Conchita Martinez
10. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
1992
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
5. Martina Navratilova
6. Mary Joe Fernandez
7. Jennifer Capriati
8. Conchita Martinez
9. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
10. Jana Novotna
Women's Tennis
> And 3 against Novotna.
>
> Max
Funny ... I never saw Sabatini or Navotna in the list of champions at
the biggest events in 1991-1993. No major titles from either of them
in the 30 months leading up to the stabbing ... no year end #1 for
either of them.
Australian French Wimbledon U.S. WTA #1
1990 Seles Graf
1991 Seles Seles Graf Seles Seles Seles
1992 Seles Seles Graf Seles Seles Seles
1993 Seles
Looks liker Parche took out the right player afterall.
bob
well known fact she was not playing her best tennis - call it a slump.
do you believe the sex scandal was sole reason for it?
bob
StephenJ
> On Jun 20, 1:49 pm, Calimero <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> On 20 Jun., 16:40, StephenJ <s...@pix.net> wrote:
>>
>>> > bob wrote:
>>>> we need to think about logical explanations too......can you think of
>>>> any other scenario or combinations of scenarios besides her dad's
>>>> playboy bunny?
>>> that's not a logical scenario, since she won all 3 blue-chip slams in
>>> 95-96 when her dad was under a far more serious cloud of scandal.
>>> so if you're looking to logic, here's the obvious explanation: graf's
>>> game and results suffered between 90-93 because she was mentally cowed.
>>> She had been surpassed, wasn't the best anymore. Which not only affected
>>> her confidence, but also gave her top opponents more confidence when
>>> playing her because they could smell the vulnerability.
>>> In short, she'd lost her aura. Call it a "Seles slump". LOL.
>> Graf didn't lose even ONE match against Seles from July 1990 until May
>> 1992.
>> But 8 against Sabatini,
>> And 3 against Novotna.
> But 8 against Sabatini?
>
>
> In the 30 months (2.5 years) before Seles was stabbed in the back with
> a knife by a Steffi Graf fan, Seles had won 10 of the last 12 majors
> (Slams and Tour Championships) beginning with the WTA Tour
> Championships in 1990.
Yes, Seles was totally dominating the slams, which is what the top
champs care about.
Graf was mentally cowed, and that opened the door for the second tier of
top players, the sabbys and novotnas, to capitalize on her vulnerability.
--
When the facts change,
one's opinion ought to change.
- John Maynard Keynes
StephenJ
the 'sex scandal' was 0% of the reason. Graf probably would have played
even worse if there hadn't been a sex scandal, since she found solace
and escape on the court.
Seles taking over as 'best player', knocking graf off the throne, was
99.7% of it. Obviously.
--
"I admit that there are good white men,
but they bear no proportion to the bad.
The bad must be strongest, for they rule.
They enslave those not of their color.
There is no faith to be placed in their words."
- Chief Pachgantschilias
StephenJ
> Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> the heart of her career.
>
> - Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
Very well said.
--
when you die it's the same as if everybody else did too.
- C. McCarthy
Calimero
> "Calimero" <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote in message
The public pressure had been immense even without that. The 1990/91
scandal almost broke her. She even thought of retirement in February
1991 ...
Max
Calimero
Funny that Seles couldn't capitalize but lost 3 of 4 matches in
1991/92 (= Seles's best years ever) ...
Max
Calimero
Funny that Seles intimidated Graf in a way that caused Graf to lose to
Sabby & Novotna but not against Seles herself ...
Max
Calimero
> > Stella Nadal wrote:
>
> > Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> > the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> > Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> > the heart of her career.
>
> > - Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
>
> Very well said.
Your jingoistic rag forgot to mention that their fave Navi wasn't the
best in the heart of her career either ...
(Graf at least had a winning record against the #1 player!)
Max
bob
believe me, no american magazine ever thought of navi as 'their own.'
bob
Calimero
> "Calimero" <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote in message
I don't think there are any tennis magazines outside of the US were
Navi could be named GOAT.
But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
Navi is an US American.
Coincidence?
Max
Jack Hollis
<stell...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
>the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
>Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
>the heart of her career.
>
>- Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
It's hard to argue with that and the same can be said for Borg and
Mac.
Jack Hollis
<calim...@gmx.de> wrote:
>I don't think there are any tennis magazines outside of the US were
>Navi could be named GOAT.
>But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
>Navi is an US American.
>Coincidence?
Ironically, one of the things that makes it difficult to consider
Graff as the GOAT is that all of her achievements after Seles was
stabbed are tainted. Gunter Parche actually did more harm to Graff
than anything else. All of Graff's titles after the stabbing deserve
an asterisk.
bob
did a US magazine name Navi GOAT after 1996 or so? where and when? everyone
here acknowledges Graf as GOAT whether they liked her or not - and most in
US like her very much (more than Navi by a longshot...).. i've been to a
fair share of Graf matches live and she was always the crowd choice by a
wide margin. i think had graf peaked when evert did, that might've been a
different story.....
> But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
> Navi is an US American.
> Coincidence?
i would like to see those magazines, i don't believe they exist mainstream
max.
they might've put Navi GOAT pre 1995 or pre 1990 or some such....
bob
bob
"Jack Hollis" <xsle...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:vbuq35p9k7j2bis4c...@4ax.com...
i think they might've been tainted had seles been maimed or crippled.
but her own decision not to return to tennis "untaints" anything you believe
tainted.
bob
Calimero
I'm not addressing you, bob, but Jaros and his socks ...
Max
Calimero
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:45:54 -0700 (PDT), Stella Nadal
>
> >Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> >the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> >Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> >the heart of her career.
>
> >- Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
>
> It's hard to argue with that and the same can be said for Borg and
> Mac.
... and Navratilova.
Max
Women's Tennis
> Your jingoistic rag forgot to mention that their fave Navi wasn't the
> best in the heart of her career either ...
> (Graf at least had a winning record against the #1 player!)
>
> Max
A player benefitting because the #1 player in the world -- a teenager
with a very, very bright future and tremendous momentum as the best
player in women's tennis - was stabbed in the back with a knife ...
that is nothing short of cheating.
Women's Tennis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Remember, there had to be a REASON ... a MOTIVE ... for a Graf fan to
stab Monica Seles .... Parche was not doing it just for kicks.
OR ... we could look to the results to UNDERSTAND why:
MONICA SELES CHAMPION STEFFI GRAF CHAMPION
1990 Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open
April 30 - Germany stabbing
Women's Tennis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Of course, it had to do with Seles ... OTHERWISE, Steffi would have
won the 1992 French Open final or the 1993 Australian Open final when
she was finally able to get through to lose to Seles in these finals
instead of losing to the players who would eventually end up losing to
Seles in these finals.
Steffi just could not beat Seles at a major event other than Wimbledon
during those years.
Women's Tennis
Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......
Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.
frundsberg9
Seles is a gutless fat fuckin freak. And as about as much use as a
fuckin chocolate teapot.
StephenJ
> On Jun 20, 3:27 pm, Calimero <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Remember, there had to be a REASON ... a MOTIVE ... for a Graf fan to
> stab Monica Seles .... Parche was not doing it just for kicks.
Yes, otherwise why didn't he stab whoever graf was playing that week or
somesuch, or Sabby, since she'd beaten graf 8 times, which max thinks is
so important?
LOL.
--
"My greatest delight is to mark my enemy,
avenge myself thoroughly, then go to sleep".
- Josef Stalin
StephenJ
> Of course, it had to do with Seles ... OTHERWISE, Steffi would have
> won the 1992 French Open final or the 1993 Australian Open final when
> she was finally able to get through to lose to Seles in these finals
> instead of losing to the players who would eventually end up losing to
> Seles in these finals.
Max would have you believe that a "sex scandal slump" that didn't even
reveal itself until SEVERAL MONTHS after Graf found out about it and yet
then lasted for 3 FULL YEARS just HAPPENED TO END BY COINCIDENCE right
after the girl who had been #1 and winning 3 of 4 slams the previous 3
years was stabbed by a fan of Graf's and left the tour.
Now you talk about parche-level looniness? Is it no wonder no one takes
him seriously? LOL.
--
9 times out of 10, when a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault.
- gillian boardman
StephenJ
Yes, max has many demented ideas, but the notions that anyone in the USA
every thought of MN or Seles as "americans" is surely one of the looniest.
--
pre-position national guards
saturday - blanco asks bush to declare, bush does
sunday - nagin orders evacuation at 9'30am
120,000 don't have cars - told to go to schools, get on school buses
new mexico gov. tells blanco he'd send guard troops
pete schneider, LA nat guard - says we need all help we can get
40 agencies in BR on fri/sat/sun , coordinating (fema, nat guard,
engineers, etc.) - poised to rush in when storm passes
** monday - 7:10am storm arrives. LA Nat guard immediately lost *all*
comm with New Orleans (schneider)
** state police larry mcleary emergency op center in BR *loses all
contact with all NO and north shore personnel*
state/city plans assumed cell phones would work, didn't. NO POWER for
ham radios. Officers can only communicate short distances with hand-held
battery radios, they quickly die. TOtal comm breakdown...
LATE MONDAY: joe sehada, cane researcher - BR announces 17th canal
breach, 18 hours of flooding to begin...
PLANS UNRAVEL: tuesday morning: thousands trapped in homes. FEMA
coordinator doesn't realize flooding is happening. walter mastry asks
for help for jefferson parish - calls FEMA/nat guard/army corps at state
emergency office in BR (tuesday morning) they said they would place
orders for food/medical/etc. and be there within 12-36 hours. Nagin says
he's sure help is about to pour in. Nagin says Bush is focused on the
problem.
Wednesday: Nat guard troops call to offer help...NM said because of comm
problems their offer to send troops wasn't accepted until thursday, and
arrived friday. LA emergency officials and federal nat guard officals
say they have to wait until an official plan and command chain is
established.
BLANCO didn't accept help until thursday.
Sunday: RICHARDSON CALLS BLANCO, offers troops. LA guard says they need
the help. Blanco doesn't reply.........
SD is packed with 25k, more at CS.
MCLEARY says the situation was far worse than anyone had planned for.
local officials across region are asking for state nat guard, but most
are at SD, rest of city is chaotic/lawless (wed afternoon).
Mastry: No food water med promised by feds and state....all kinds of
excuses. we don't step in until locals ask, mastry says he asked.
FEMA contractors are trying to send help (wisconsin fleet waits two days
then is sent to dallas and montgomery, not NO).
NAgin (thursday morn): get us troops! Bush homeland security chief
chertoff "no report of thousands who don't have food/water".
StephenJ
doesn't resonate, since the reason for her staying off tour for almost 3
years is clear/reasonable/obvious. Most of us were surprised she EVER
came back, or at least would come back while graf was still on tour.
Even when she was practicing with MN in spring/summer 1995 i didn't
think she ever would.
when you're rich/famous and set for life, why come back to a sport where
demented fans of rival players can attack you? Makes no sense. Kudos to
Seles for the sheer gutsiness of coming back as earlier as she did.
StephenJ
Yes, the competition was so poor in 95/96 that graf won 6 straight slams
despite hobbling around the court. Lamest competition ever.
Calimero
> > Women's Tennis wrote:
>
> > On Jun 20, 3:27 pm, Calimero <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Remember, there had to be a REASON ... a MOTIVE ... for a Graf fan to
> > stab Monica Seles .... Parche was not doing it just for kicks.
>
> Yes, otherwise why didn't he stab whoever graf was playing that week or
> somesuch, or Sabby, since she'd beaten graf 8 times, which max thinks is
> so important?
He must have been retarded ...
Max
Calimero
> >news:vbuq35p9k7j2bis4c...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:26:48 -0700 (PDT), Calimero
> >> <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >>> I don't think there are any tennis magazines outside of the US were
> >>> Navi could be named GOAT.
> >>> But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
> >>> Navi is an US American.
> >>> Coincidence?
>
> >> Ironically, one of the things that makes it difficult to consider
> >> Graff as the GOAT is that all of her achievements after Seles was
> >> stabbed are tainted. Gunter Parche actually did more harm to Graff
> >> than anything else. All of Graff's titles after the stabbing deserve
> >> an asterisk.
>
> > i think they might've been tainted had seles been maimed or crippled.
> > but her own decision not to return to tennis "untaints" anything you
> > believe tainted.
>
> doesn't resonate, since the reason for her staying off tour for almost 3
> years is clear/reasonable/obvious. Most of us were surprised she EVER
LOL.
Nobody would have guessed in their wildest dreams that Seles would
chose not to play because of a minor stab wound that needed only one
stitch to close. Has there ever been a person who didn't show up in
office for more than 2 years because of a small wound like that? I
don't think so.
Max
Calimero
> >news:5cc3cbbb-9330-4216...@s16g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> > On 20 Jun., 21:00, StephenJ <s...@pix.net> wrote:
> >> > Stella Nadal wrote:
>
> >> > Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> >> > the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> >> > Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> >> > the heart of her career.
>
> >> > - Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
>
> >> Very well said.
>
> >> Your jingoistic rag forgot to mention that their fave Navi wasn't the
> > best in the heart of her career either ...
> > (Graf at least had a winning record against the #1 player!)
>
> > believe me, no american magazine ever thought of navi as 'their own.'
>
> Yes, max has many demented ideas, but the notions that anyone in the USA
> every thought of MN or Seles as "americans" is surely one of the looniest.
>
LOL!
I think that a majority of Americans even believe that Steffi is an US
citizen by now ....
(How absurd, I know!)
Max
Calimero
> Women's Tennis wrote:
> > On Jun 20, 3:33 pm, Calimero <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >> On 20 Jun., 21:00, StephenJ <s...@pix.net> wrote:
>
> >>> > Stella Nadal wrote:
> >>>> Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> >>>> the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> >>>> Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> >>>> the heart of her career.
> >>>> - Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
> >>> Very well said.
> >> Your jingoistic rag forgot to mention that their fave Navi wasn't the
> >> best in the heart of her career either ...
> >> (Graf at least had a winning record against the #1 player!)
>
> >> Max
>
> > Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......
>
> > Gunther Parche
> > and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.
>
> Yes, the competition was so poor in 95/96 that graf won 6 straight slams
> despite hobbling around the court. Lamest competition ever.
82-86 and the current decade were/are even lamer ...
Max
bob
they would far prefer Graf to be considered american than Seles or MN, if
given a choice.
bob
bob
"StephenJ" <sj...@pix.net> wrote in message
news:h1lvao$u98$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
> bob wrote:
>>
>> "Jack Hollis" <xsle...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:vbuq35p9k7j2bis4c...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:26:48 -0700 (PDT), Calimero
>>> <calim...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think there are any tennis magazines outside of the US were
>>>> Navi could be named GOAT.
>>>> But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
>>>> Navi is an US American.
>>>> Coincidence?
>>>
>>> Ironically, one of the things that makes it difficult to consider
>>> Graff as the GOAT is that all of her achievements after Seles was
>>> stabbed are tainted. Gunter Parche actually did more harm to Graff
>>> than anything else. All of Graff's titles after the stabbing deserve
>>> an asterisk.
>>
>> i think they might've been tainted had seles been maimed or crippled.
>> but her own decision not to return to tennis "untaints" anything you
>> believe tainted.
>
> doesn't resonate, since the reason for her staying off tour for almost 3
> years is clear/reasonable/obvious.
the reason for 3 months was obvious - 3 yrs, i'm not so sure....
> Most of us were surprised she EVER came back, or at least would come back
> while graf was still on tour. Even when she was practicing with MN in
> spring/summer 1995 i didn't think she ever would.
> when you're rich/famous and set for life, why come back to a sport where
> demented fans of rival players can attack you? Makes no sense. Kudos to
> Seles for the sheer gutsiness of coming back as earlier as she did.
bob
Women's Tennis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, Graf and Harding were the supposed beneficiaries of physical
attacks on athletes in their sportw who were higher ranked than they
were.
Yes, the best COMBINATION in women's singles is Parche and Graf --
they together accomplished much more than Graf or Parche could have
accomplished by themselves. They together removed Seles from the #1
ranking in women's tennis at a time when Seles had won 9 of the most
recent 11 biggest events in women's tennis.
Calimero
> On Jun 21, 3:24 pm, Calimero <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Jun., 20:48, StephenJ <s...@pix.net> wrote:
> > LOL.
> > Nobody would have guessed in their wildest dreams that Seles would
> > chose not to play because of a minor stab wound that needed only one
> > stitch to close. Has there ever been a person who didn't show up in
> > office for more than 2 years because of a small wound like that? I
> > don't think so.
>
> > Max- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes, Graf and Harding were the supposed beneficiaries of physical
> attacks on athletes in their sportw who were higher ranked than they
> were.
Kerry was back within 4 weeks. A true champion!
Max
Stella Nadal
>
> they would far prefer Graf to be considered american than Seles or MN, if
> given a choice.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am an Americna and I don't prefer Graff. I also know that
majority of Americans would far prefer a Seles or Navratilova over the
cold callous overrated Graff.
Stella Nadal
wrote:
> .
>
> Seles is a gutless fat fuckin freak. And as about as much use as a
>
> - Show quoted text -
the ugly big nose graff is an opportunistic monster who only became #1
because of the KNIFE.
Stella Nadal
> On 21 Jun., 00:04, "bob" <stein...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Calimero" <calimero...@gmx.de> wrote in message
>
> >news:5cc3cbbb-9330-4216...@s16g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> > On 20 Jun., 21:00, StephenJ <s...@pix.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Stella Nadal wrote:
>
> > > > Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume
> > > > the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was
> > > > Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in
> > > > the heart of her career.
>
> > > > - Sports Illustrated 8/27/2001
>
> > > Very well said.
> > >Your jingoistic rag forgot to mention that their fave Navi wasn't the
>
> > best in the heart of her career either ...
> > (Graf at least had a winning record against the #1 player!)
>
> > believe me, no american magazine ever thought of navi as 'their own.'
>
>
> I don't think there are any tennis magazines outside of the US were
> Navi could be named GOAT.
> But most US mags obviously have her as GOAT.
> Navi is an US American.
> Coincidence?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Graff was never admired inside and outside of the tennis community.
The truth was she was never popular and really had no friends on the
tour because of her personality and bad sportsmanship. She was very
plain with a very big nose, had a hard, cold, lack of personality, was
always a sore loser making excuses and seemed to care about nothing or
no one besides herself. The tennis establishment were extremely
disappointed in her refusal to contribute anything back to the game
that gave her so much. Graff only gained a shred of popularity in the
last days of her career because of the pity factor. Some were sorry
for her when it was clear she was finished and being pushed out of the
game, outplayed by the young up and comers. It was the pity factor
that enabled her to eke out a final slam when the crowd tortured
Hingis to tears just because she was beating up on the old lady Graff
and wouldn't quietly accept a bad call.
A few fans loved her. Most didn't, and many rejoiced to finally see
the last of her. Today the majority of players are much more friendly,
open and relaxed which is a refreshing change and it would be hard
actually to think of any player today that even comes near to the
cold, aloof, high and mighty attitude of the ugly big nose Graff.
StephenJ
yes, steffi was far more popular in usa than seles or mn ever were. max
lives in a demented landscape ...
--
It is easier to win over people to pacifism than socialism.
We should work first for pacifism, and only later for socialism.
- Albert Einstein
wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk
<4a24c02d-a67a-4972...@o30g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
By the time Navratilova retired she and Graf were tied at 9-9. So if
you're going to say that Graf had a winning record against her in the
"heart of her career" you're *also* going to have to admit that
Navratilova beat Graf at *her* peak.
Ultimately, the biggest losers when Seles was stabbed were tennis fans -
we were deprived of a lot of great matches between Seles and Graf and also
Seles and Navratilova.
wg
bob
"Stella Nadal" <stell...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5f3b9b1-6e6f-499e...@l21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
she was shy, yes. other than that, your post is 180deg off of reality.
bob
Günter Parche
> On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, "Women's Tennis" <womens...@PHAT.CO.NZ> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Seles dominated women's tennis in the early 1990s before she was
> > stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan for ranking #1.
>
> > Yes, Seles had a winning advantage over Graf head to head in the years
> > 1990-1993 .. so did Navratilova .. but that only tells part of the
> > story.
>
> > The 12 biggest events in women's tennis from the 1990 WTA Tour
> > Championships through the 1993 Australian Open:
>
> > 1990 WTA Tour Championships
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Gabriela Sabatini).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Sabatini in straight sets.)
>
> > 1991 Australian
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Jana Novotna).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).
>
> > 1991 French
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Arantxa Sanchez Vicario).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to ASV in straight sets).
>
> > 1991 Wimbledon
> > MONICA SELES DID NOT PLAY
> > STEFF GRAF WON (over Gabriela Sabatini 8-6 in the 3rd).
>
> > 1991 U.S. Open
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Martina Navratilova).
>
> > 1991 WTA Tour Championships
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).
>
> > 1992 Australian
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Mary Joe Fernandez).
> > STEFF GRAF DID NOT PLAY.
>
> > 1992 French
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).
>
> > 1992 Wimbledon
> > MONICA SELES LOST IN THE FINAL (to Steffi Graf).
> > STEFF GRAF WON (over Monica Seles).
>
> > 1992 U.S. Open
> > MONICA SELES WON (over ASV).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to ASV in straight sets).
>
> > 1992 WTA Tour Championships
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN FIRST ROUND (to Lori McNeal).
>
> > 1993 Australian
> > MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
> > STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).
>
> > In these 12 major events between the end of 1990 and the stabbing of
> > Monica Seles by a Steffi Graf fan ...
>
> > Monica Seles:
>
> > • entered 11 of the 12 events.
> > • won 10 of the 12 events.
> > • reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.
>
> > Steffi Graf:
>
> > • entered 11 of the 12 events.
> > • won 2 of the 12 events.
> > • reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
> > • lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.
>
> > In addition to going 2-1 vs. Graf in these 12 big women's tournaments
> > between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... Seles also had 5 wins in
> > the final round of these big events over players who had beaten Graf
> > in either the semis or quarters of the same event (Sabatini ...
> > Novotna ... Navratilova ... and ASV twice).
>
> > So ... yes, Seles had the winning edge head to head over Graf in
> > 1990-1993 just as Navratilova did ... but Seles was also beating
> > players who had also beaten Graf in the semis and quarters of the big
> > events Graf was losing.
>
> Steffi Graf leads SelezzzzzzZZZZZ 10-5. Theory debunked..next!
Das ist korrekt!
Stella Nadal
>
> - Show quoted text -
did the ugly big nose ever thank you?
Calimero
1. Voted WTA's "most exciting player" in 1996, 1998, 1999 (award
introduced in 1995)
2. First sportswoman ever in SI Swimsuit Issue
3. Voted most popular woman tennis player in a poll conducted by 6
European tennis magazines in 1995
4. Only player with a world-wide fan club (SGSC)
5. Widely considered the most classy tennis player on- and off-court
in last 20 years
6. Voted most beautiful woman tennis player by ATP players in 1995
7. ....
8. ....
....
Max
Günter Parche
fickst du mit Rafael Nadal?
ahonkan
> she was shy, yes. other than that, your post is 180deg off of reality.
>
> bob
OK. Care to refute the statements one by one instead of a sweeping
'your post is 180 deg off'? Let's see:
1. Steffi was unpopular among peers.
2. Steffi was a sore loser who made excuses for her defeats rather
than giving credit to opponents.
3. Steffi didn't promote women's tennis in any capacity while she
was playing or after retirement.
4. The women's tennis establishment was unhappy with Steffi for her
refusal to promote the sport.
Calimero
> On Jun 22, 3:48 am, "bob" <stein...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> > she was shy, yes. other than that, your post is 180deg off of reality.
>
> > bob
>
> OK. Care to refute the statements one by one instead of a sweeping
> 'your post is 180 deg off'? Let's see:
> 1. Steffi was unpopular among peers.
She was not. She was liked because she was always friendly and
respectful, never arrogant towards journeywomen or officials.
The USTA/lesbian camarilla didn't like her though. Different
styles ...
> 2. Steffi was a sore loser who made excuses for her defeats rather
> than giving credit to opponents.
She never made excuses and didn't like to talk about her injuries.
Only when the media types pressed her she reluctantly spoke about them
from time to time. Graf haters call that "excuses".
> 3. Steffi didn't promote women's tennis in any capacity while she
> was playing or after retirement.
While she was playing she "promoted" tennis far more than all these
Shriver types. Especially in Germany. Maybe not in the US. Why should
she? What did Evert ever do to promote tennis in Germany?
After her career she promoted her charity "children for tomorrow".
Which is far more important than promoting women's tennis so that some
untalented grunters und shriekers earn more money.
> 4. The women's tennis establishment was unhappy with Steffi for her
> refusal to promote the sport.
Steffi promoted women's tennis with her tennis. There is no other
female tennis player in the history of tennis who drew more non-tennis
fans to the sport WORLD-WIDE than Steffi. No Evert (maybe in the USA
in the 70ies), no Kournikova (her fans were no tennis fans and didn't
stay with the sport). These WTA suits never understood that.
Max
Günter Parche
bob
news:6539e1ee-3973-4823...@o5g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 22, 3:48 am, "bob" <stein...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
> she was shy, yes. other than that, your post is 180deg off of reality.
>
> bob
> OK. Care to refute the statements one by one instead of a sweeping
> 'your post is 180 deg off'? Let's see:
> 1. Steffi was unpopular among peers.
which peers? the ones tired of losing to her?
> 2. Steffi was a sore loser who made excuses for her defeats rather
than giving credit to opponents.
name me an excuse she ever ued.
>3. Steffi didn't promote women's tennis in any capacity while she
was playing or after retirement.
she was shy.
>4. The women's tennis establishment was unhappy with Steffi for her
refusal to promote the sport.
were they? who said? shriver?
bob
frundsberg9
Seles is fuck all, I would'nt piss on the gutless fat cunt if she was
on fire. All those noisy grunting bastards are the same, Their all
fuckin cheats.
Women's Tennis
wrote:
___________________ GRAF______ SELES
1990 WTA Championships____ SEMIS___WON
1991 Australian_______ QUARTERS ___ WON
1991 French_________ SEMIS_______ WON
1991 Wimbledon______ WON________ DNP
1991 U.S. Open_______ SEMIS_______ WON
1991 WTA Championships _ QUARTERS__ WON
1992 Australian_______ DNP_________ WON
1992 French_________ FINAL________ WON
1992 Wimbledon______ WON_________ FINAL
1992 U.S. Open______QUARTERS______ WON
1992 WTA Championships _FIRST ROUND__ WON
1993 Australian________ FINAL________ WON
Interesting that the ONLY win that Graf had at a major event other
than the 1992 Wimbledon was the ONLY event that Monica Seles did not
play.
So ... what kind of an impact did the knife of Gunther Parche have?
How did Graf do in the next 5 major events AFTER the knife of Gunther
Parche made sure that Monica Seles was no longer dominating women's
tennis at the age of 19 years, 4 months after dominating in these
earlier years?
___________________#2 GRAF_________#1 SELES
APRIL 1993 ------------------------------- STABBED
1993 French___________ WON*
1993 Wimbledon________ WON*
1993 U.S. Open_________ WON*
1993 WTA Championships__ WON*
1994 Australian__________ WON*
At what point in here were we supposed to have just forgotten that
Monica Seles was stabbed by a jealous Graf fan?
DavidW
Hey, welcome back.
dixon
Stella Nadal, You fuckin preach a load of shite about Steffi and, you
can't even spell her name correctly [1F not2] what a fuckin balloon.
and for your information Steffi is one of the most adored sports stars
in history so, get your fuckin facts right first before you start
writing all your shite.
And I will fuckin tell you something else, Seles never had an
retirement bash because, she knew that no cunt would have turned up.
She really was universally unpopular. Fuckin moaning faced cunt. Now
fuck off back to your fantasy world you waste of space.
TT
Stefi?
Stella Nadal
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dixon, You're A Greasy Pussy Shagging Germ Punk!!! Did the ugly big
nose Graff ever had a retirement bash??? Who would show up???? you and
gunter parsche?????? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! Graff is arguably one of the
most unpopular ever in women's tennis as she was ugly inside and out.
bob
give me an example.
bob
dixon
> "Stella Nadal" <stellaaa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
TT for you information I was referring to Steffi's second name 1F not
2 And as for that fuckin twat Stella Nadal I'm SCOTTISH not German,
you fuckin pissartist.
Your the type of cunt that makes retards look intelligent. also
Stella[wanker]Nadal if you had the guts to repeat to my face the shite
that you write here, it certainly would prove very interesting.
So up your's, you fuckin knobend.
dixon
Stella Nadal, were you born retarded or did you have your brain
surgically removed at a later date? If it came down to who wins the
popularity contest Steffi or Miss piggy Seles then, as usual
Miss piggy finishes below Steffi. Seles is so far up her own arse that
she's almost inside out. Fuckin ugly fat arsed gutless cunt. And you
can fuck off back to fantasy island or whatever fuckin
cesspit you crawled out of.
TT
jdeluise, pay attention:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/compost.htm
--
"Mos Eisley spaceport: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum
and villainy. We must be cautious."