spin
Scott D. Yelich
I'm new to this group, please forgive me if this has been hacked out
[many times] before.
I'm an offensive player ... and I like to hit with top spin (same with
tennis, etc).
My question is, how do I get the most spin? For the last 3 months
I've been adjusting my grip to try different shots. I also tend to
play just about arm length from the table. I find that I can get an
excellent grip for top-spin forehand, but then my fore-hand chop and
all back-hand shots suffer. Likewise, if I find an excellent grip for
back-hand top-spin, other shots suffer. If I compromise and use a
grip somewhre in between the extremes, the shots work, but they're
mediocre and take more effort.
Lately I've settled with a bad grip (I know, I know) where if I hold
the paddle out with my thumb pointing up, the paddle's face is
perpendicular to my arm. With this grip I can do very nice top-spin
and side spin backhand as well as very nice side-spin fore-hand and
decent top-spin for-hand (I've never tried looping... ). Also, all of
my chops seem to be very consistent-- and, of course, my fingers are
no where NEAR the paddle surface.
Now for my question... how do you get the MAXIMUM spin. I'm not
talking rubber, I'm talking technique.
Here are three bad diagrams to help.
(a) __ Ok, pleae bear with my diagrams... when a topspin
|\ shot is coming in, you can do a short or full swing
(top spin) \ stroke at what is basically a straight angle. The
~~~~---_--~~ \ return is fast, and has decent spin. This shot seems
============ \ to only be consisent for incoming topspin shots with
| a bounce *higher* than the net.
|
|
|
(b) ___
|/ I guess this is a type of loop shot, but the effect is
~ hardly the same. The idea here is when there is an
~~~~---_--~~ incoming shot with top-spin that will bounce higher
============ than the net, you can swing almost horizontally and
| end with a twist down. Depending on where the ball hits
| the paddle (and not the other way around? :-) ) this
| shot can be fast or a bit slower than the one above.
| This shot *seems* to have more spin than the above.
(c)
/_
---~~-_ \ \ This shot is done when the ball is coming down. It
~-_--~-_| doesn't matter what spin was used. With this shot,
============ _/ best results are obtained if the ball is hit *very*
| near the handle and right on the imaginary handle
| axis. This shot is also best combined with a little
| side. This stroke seems to get about 3 times as much
| spin as the shots above and the speed is variable by
where the ball hits the paddle and stroke.
The thing is... I would like to do shot #3 more often. I and finding
that I am getting better with it with my backhand but I find it very
difficult to do with my forehand (no matter what grip is used). I
think the reason is that with the backhand, it's a natural movement
for the wrist-- but with the forehand, the arm has to move and turn
more and it's not as natural of a a shot.
Can anyone help me? I just play for fun, but I'd like to know if I'm
even in the right ball-park for trying to obtain maximum top-spin.
Scott
Alexander J. Chien
>My question is, how do I get the most spin? For the last 3 months
>I've been adjusting my grip to try different shots. I also tend to
>play just about arm length from the table. I find that I can get an
>excellent grip for top-spin forehand, but then my fore-hand chop and
>all back-hand shots suffer. Likewise, if I find an excellent grip for
>back-hand top-spin, other shots suffer. If I compromise and use a
>grip somewhre in between the extremes, the shots work, but they're
>mediocre and take more effort.
>
>talking rubber, I'm talking technique.
Hi -
Can of worms. ;) Lots of things to talk about to generate spin,
I'll chatter out what I look for when I play.
First, i don't think you should be concentrating on the grip as much -
whatever is most comfortable in your hand to execute all the shot you want
to is fine. When I start to think too much of how Im holding my racket -
things start to go haywire. i personally play a 'neutral' shakehand grip,
btw, not that i think it's the best or anything, just more comfortable for
me with each of my shots. I mean, I can sit here for hours and say - if I
shift my grip just a little this way, that'll make this shot better, but
it'll take away from that shot, do i want to do that ?.... best just
hold the racket how you feel comfortable. If you take a look at a bunch of
the top players - they all sort of grip the racket different from each other.
Topspin(loop) is easier to hit after the ball has passed it's peak on the
bounce. Try and think of it like this - hit the ball at an angle such that
the ball will sink all the way into the sponge of the rubber, but not into
the wood. Once you start your stroke, don't change directions much - what
i mean by that is if you start swinging upwards, dont channge the racket
direction and start moving forward (this dosent make much sense in words,
but i hope you're catching my drift). You want to accelerate your racket
speed through the contact of the ball. Timing - there is this 'power zone'
you have - on the forehand it's around the side/a little in front of the side
of your body where you can generate the most power/spin. Swing through
not only with your lower body power, add the flex at your elbow, and
add the flex of your wrist also. (I personally don't use too much wrist
when looping fast - it makes things too difficult for me) Oh yes, hitting
the ball more on the tip (further away from your hand) on the racket will
also increase spin.
Things to watch out for - stroke up and forwards. The important one for
me is forwards. You need both components. perhaps this is a preference thing,
I know some people, when they loop, saw loop the ball up up, get the ball up!
I say up yes, but you can't forget to stroke forwards too.
Reading over this post, things seem a bit scattered. I usually hesitate to
talk about technique on the net, party becuase I don't exactly know how
any of you out there can do, and what you can't do, but mostly becuase
I believe technique - although there are some basics that everyone needs
to improve (and Im working on my own basics) - has a lot of personal
variability and what may work for one person, may not be what someone else
may be capable of doing.
-Alex
Scott L. Burson
>
>Topspin(loop) is easier to hit after the ball has passed it's peak on the
>bounce. Try and think of it like this - hit the ball at an angle such that
>the ball will sink all the way into the sponge of the rubber, but not into
>the wood. Once you start your stroke, don't change directions much - what
>i mean by that is if you start swinging upwards, dont channge the racket
>direction and start moving forward (this dosent make much sense in words,
>but i hope you're catching my drift).
I'm not sure about this, Alex. I have noticed 2400-level players with a
visible concave curve to their loops: the beginning of the stroke is more
vertical and the end more horizontal, with a smooth arc in between. I've
tried this myself and it seems to give a significant increase in both control
and spin, at the cost of a bit of power. In some instances this is a
worthwhile trade. (It's certainly possible I'm not doing it exactly right,
and that there are ways to get that power back.)
>Things to watch out for - stroke up and forwards. The important one for
>me is forwards. You need both components. perhaps this is a preference thing,
>I know some people, when they loop, say loop the ball up up, get the ball up!
>I say up yes, but you can't forget to stroke forwards too.
Absolutely agreed. And remember that power comes from the rotation of the
hips.
-- Scott
Alexander J. Chien
>
>I'm not sure about this, Alex. I have noticed 2400-level players with a
>visible concave curve to their loops: the beginning of the stroke is more
>vertical and the end more horizontal, with a smooth arc in between. I've
>tried this myself and it seems to give a significant increase in both control
>and spin, at the cost of a bit of power. In some instances this is a
>worthwhile trade. (It's certainly possible I'm not doing it exactly right,
>and that there are ways to get that power back.)
Hi Scott -
Ah yes, you've got the word I was looking for - concavity. I'll
say that not only do 2400 level players have concavity - I've seen
Waldner and lots of top20 players with it too. I'll say that that is
one of my personal playing opinions. Hold on, lets talk about 2
different types of concavity first, there's the type that is more
vertical at first and then it goes more horizontal, then there's the type
that's more horizontal at first then the racket face opens and it turns
more upwards. I've seen Waldner with the first type, Ive seen chinese
players with the second type. Truthfully, to me, the first type does
seem to be more controllable with less speed.The second type seems to
generate better power, but it seems to require very active footwork timing
and balance. The straight stroke being in the middle of the two.
Personally, I lose too much speed with the first type, and Im not able to
execute the second type outside of drilling (i.e. can't incorporate
it into a game, not yet). Well, the reason,I don't concave my stroke -
I can't distinguish an improvement in spin, and it seems like extra
motion. I'd love to hear more opionion out there. So, in summary, yes,
I think the straight versus concave stroke is very debatable.
>
>-- Scott
Alex
Scott L. Burson
>In article <gyroD1D...@netcom.com> gy...@netcom.com (Scott L. Burson) writes:
>>
>>I'm not sure about this, Alex. I have noticed 2400-level players with a
>>visible concave curve to their loops: the beginning of the stroke is more
>>vertical and the end more horizontal, with a smooth arc in between. I've
>>tried this myself and it seems to give a significant increase in both control
>>and spin, at the cost of a bit of power. In some instances this is a
>>worthwhile trade. (It's certainly possible I'm not doing it exactly right,
>>and that there are ways to get that power back.)
>
>Hi Scott -
> Ah yes, you've got the word I was looking for - concavity. I'll
>say that not only do 2400 level players have concavity - I've seen
>Waldner and lots of top20 players with it too. I'll say that that is
>one of my personal playing opinions. Hold on, lets talk about 2
>different types of concavity first, there's the type that is more
>vertical at first and then it goes more horizontal, then there's the type
>that's more horizontal at first then the racket face opens and it turns
>more upwards.
Uh, well, the latter type of concavity I call "convex" :->
> I've seen Waldner with the first type, Ive seen chinese
>players with the second type. Truthfully, to me, the first type does
>seem to be more controllable with less speed.The second type seems to
>generate better power, but it seems to require very active footwork timing
>and balance. The straight stroke being in the middle of the two.
Hmm. I haven't observed a convex stroke to work very well. Straight works
okay. and in truth that is what I generally use. But it seems like the
concave stroke would be useful if I could remember to do it.
>Personally, I lose too much speed with the first type, and Im not able to
>execute the second type outside of drilling (i.e. can't incorporate
>it into a game, not yet). Well, the reason,I don't concave my stroke -
>I can't distinguish an improvement in spin, and it seems like extra
>motion. I'd love to hear more opionion out there. So, in summary, yes,
>I think the straight versus concave stroke is very debatable.
One particular advantage of starting low and using a concave stroke is that it
makes it easy to make last-millisecond corrections for the incoming spin. If
you start low and the ball has a lot of topspin, you start your stroke early
and catch the ball in the latter part of the arc when your arm is moving more
nearly horizontally; if it turns out to have less topspin than you thought,
or even a bit of backspin, you still use the same stroke, you just start it
later so you contact the ball at a more vertical part of the arc.
If, on the other hand, you use a straight or especially a convex stroke, and
you think the ball has a lot of topspin, you naturally start with your arm
back but relatively high; if the ball turns out to be flat, you have to lower
your arm before you start the stroke, which is difficult.
I think that is a big problem for the convex stroke, and a small problem for
the straight stroke.
-- Scott
Harry Sideras
> In article <SCOTT.94D...@sfi.santafe.edu> sc...@santafe.edu
> (Scott D. Yelich) writes:
> > My question is, how do I get the most spin? For the last 3 months
> > I've been adjusting my grip to try different shots. I also tend
> > to play just about arm length from the table. I find that I can
> > get an excellent grip for top-spin forehand, but then my fore-hand
> > chop and all back-hand shots suffer. Likewise, if I find an
> > excellent grip for back-hand top-spin, other shots suffer. If I
> > compromise and use a grip somewhre in between the extremes, the
> > shots work, but they're mediocre and take more effort.
>
> - whatever is most comfortable in your hand to execute all the shot
> you want to is fine. When I start to think too much of how Im holding
> shakehand grip, btw, not that I think it's the best or anything, just
> more comfortable for me with each of my shots. I mean, I can sit here
> for hours and say - if I shift my grip just a little this way, that'll
> make this shot better, but it'll take away from that shot, do i want
> to do that ?.... best just hold the racket how you feel comfortable.
> If you take a look at a bunch of the top players - they all sort of
> grip the racket different from each other.
I missed the original posting (I think), so I'm a bit behind here. I'll
just throw in some thoughts, if I may.
Regarding grip I'm probably not the best to talk about this, being a little
unconventional. I use a basic shake-hands style, but keep two fingers on
the back of the bat. The main point about my grip, though, is that I hold
it quite loose. How to explain...
I hold the handle between the palm of my hand and the fourth and fifth
(little) finger. The blade position will vary from being stuck in the jaw
between my thumb and index finger for a very tight grip for control shots,
to swinging out long so that the bat extends directly away from my arm for
attacking shots (both forehand and backhand).
This grip isn't as unnatural as it sounds because the bat swings into
position in the back stroke and the grip takes effect before the forward
stroke is made. The point being that the actual decision on grip is left
very late and the looseness of the grip means that choice is available.
A tight grip won't allow a range of strokes to be available.
> > Now for my question... how do you get the MAXIMUM spin. I'm not
> > talking rubber, I'm talking technique.
>
> Topspin(loop) is easier to hit after the ball has passed it's peak
> on the bounce. Try and think of it like this - hit the ball at an
> angle such that the ball will sink all the way into the sponge of
> the rubber, but not into the wood. Once you start your stroke, don't
> change directions much - what I mean by that is if you start swinging
> upwards, don't change the racket direction and start moving forward
> (this dosent make much sense in words, but i hope you're catching
> my drift). You want to accelerate your racket speed through the
> contact of the ball. Timing - there is this 'power zone' you have
> - on the forehand it's around the side/a little in front of the side
> of your body where you can generate the most power/spin. Swing through
> not only with your lower body power, add the flex at your elbow, and
> add the flex of your wrist also. (I personally don't use too much
> wrist when looping fast - it makes things too difficult for me) Oh
> yes, hitting the ball more on the tip (further away from your hand)
> on the racket will also increase spin.
I had to think about that one for a while, but I think you've got that
basically right. There is an optimum point of contact for hitting a ball.
Without a bat in your hand and standing upright but rotated at about
45degrees relative to the table, stretch your arms and hands so that your
fingertips meet at a height around about your waist directly in front of
you. Now, with a bat in your hand and your elbow slightly bent you should
be aiming to time your stroke so that the maximum acceleration is when the
bat passes this point. The body movement itself is like an uncoiling
spring and involves virtually every joint in your body: ankles, knees,
waist, shoulders, arm, elbow and wrist are all involved in greater or
lesser degrees. The upshot should be that there is <forward> and <upward>
motion that gets you to the point of contact at a comfortable position in
front of your body (the optimum point mentioned above).
Do all that in a split second and you've got it made 8^{)
--
regards * InterNet: sidc...@cix.compulink.co.uk *
*%*%*%*%*%* # also: 100:1011/0....@turbonet.ftn #
% Harry S % * 2:254/108...@fidonet.org *
*%*%*%*%*%* # 90:102/140...@nest.ftn #
Chip Patton
This has been an interesting discussion...
>One particular advantage of starting low and using a concave stroke is that it
>makes it easy to make last-millisecond corrections for the incoming spin. If
>you start low and the ball has a lot of topspin, you start your stroke early
>and catch the ball in the latter part of the arc when your arm is moving more
>nearly horizontally; if it turns out to have less topspin than you thought,
>or even a bit of backspin, you still use the same stroke, you just start it
>later so you contact the ball at a more vertical part of the arc.
I used to play with (learned a lot from) a Russian fellow named Boris with
some of the smoothest strokes I've ever hit with. He was probably around
a 2200 player, though I don't think he played any US tournaments (about 1983).
Anyway, he used to say "Make it high, then put the cover on if you need to."
This is just what Scott was describing above -- start low and "feel" the
ball in your sponge, if it's got more topspin (or less chop) than you
thought at first, or you need more control for placement, then close the
racket and follow through more over the ball (concavely). It takes some
concentration and practice.
Another interesting tip I picked up in college was that for loops up the
line, making the ball high is key. It seems that because the table is shorter
there or you don't get the hip rotation (since the table may be in the way),
that getting more topspin pulls the ball down on the table even though it
may pass higher over the net. The cross court loop has those extra inches
from the diagonal and is more natural to carry the ball across your body
low over the net. Note: I'm not talking about an "inside-out" loop here,
that's more difficult in any event (but effective).
>If, on the other hand, you use a straight or especially a convex stroke, and
>you think the ball has a lot of topspin, you naturally start with your arm
>back but relatively high; if the ball turns out to be flat, you have to lower
>your arm before you start the stroke, which is difficult.
>I think that is a big problem for the convex stroke, and a small problem for
>the straight stroke.
>-- Scott
--Chip
crpa...@ingr.com
Scott D. Yelich
Chip> that getting more topspin pulls the ball down on the table even
Chip> though it may pass higher over the net. The cross court loop
Chip> has those extra inches from the diagonal and is more natural to
Chip> carry the ball across your body low over the net. Note: I'm not
Chip> talking about an "inside-out" loop here, that's more difficult
Chip> in any event (but effective).
so, lets get back to my original question... what technique gives the
more spin?
(1) huge stroke, flat face
(2) huge/medium stroke, wrist snap, flat face
(3) medium stroke, wrist turn, face rotating
(4) short to medium stroke, write spin, face rotating
1 and 2 are opposites... and I much prefer 4...
(from the side)
top _
|\ /__
\ _____ \ \ |/~\
(a) o\ or (b) |/ o \ or (c) o\ or (d) ~ o|
\ ~ / /
bottom
A is the no face - no angle changing shot... I *think* this is what people
have been talking about with concavity (see below) ... like this
__
|-_
o~-____--~~
You can swing straight up or you can go down and then back up.... but
the end hit is roughly the same.. that is the face angle never
changes... You get some spin.... from the stroke and depending on the
incoing ball's spin. Next, if you do a wrist snap at just the right
moment it has the effect ot swinging faster, so you get more
spin... but the face is still flat. These are nice shots, but they
return 1/2 the spin I want (so it seems)... they do have decent speed,
but they're terrible easy to return. If someone stands back, these
type of shots then become your "steady" or "consistent" return, but
the opponent has no problem returning them.
now for the opposite in terms of face angle... the changing face angle
with the loop...
_
<---~~~o~~~---___
is really nice, but I don't like the total arm movement... it's a lot
of effort for something that can be returned with ease and no stroke!
(ie: total 100% flat or partial-tilt block). and you might be out of
position because of your massive stroke.
I tend to like the "feel" loop (with a shorter swing?) it just doesn't
really have any spin... it does have a lot of control.
____
_-~~ o~-_
Lately, I've been trying to do a new shot...
as seen from above:
backhand
_
/|
/o
\_
It's kind of difficult to draw with small ascii graphics, but it's
basically the wrist-spin for top spin, but instead of top to bottom
for top spin, it's like 95% back-left-front for side spin and 5%
top-to-bottom... it gives excellent side spin which seems to end up
as top spin by the time it reaches the other side of the table. Also,
I don't have to have a massive swing, which I like... what I find is
that depending on how I hit this, it's very slow with a LOT of
spin... or much faster with a little less spin. The path the ball
travels is like a loop (only not as pronounced). I'd rather have
total floaters with a ton of spin than fast flat shots that my
opponent can spin to his/her desire back at me.
I've been successful doing this exact same stroke on the forehand
side, that is, inside to out side spin with a backhand grip-- but the
shot does tend to go at least straight is not off to the side-- so it
often misses the table... and it's very awkward on the forehand side
to do a backhand hit! So, I don't do that often (mostly only to see
if I can do it...) so I normally use a normal forehand version of this.
(top view) \
_--~~/
+-----*-~--+
| / |
| | |
| | |
| | |
----|--------
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
+---|----+
|
This is top view... and the shot tends to hit really close to the back
of the table (see *) ... I have this same shot with my forehand (it's
actually about 10x more consitent) but the stroke is completely
different and the ball tends to bounce higher which opens me up for a
strong return from my opponent's forehand if they can handle the side
spin.
Lets compare:
Both of these shots have almost the same effect... yet, the backhand
one is more subtle and I think it has more potential:
Backhand top Forehand
sidespin views sidespin
_ ^
/| |
/o o|
\_ |
|
anyway, I'll end my babbling here... I'm just trying to find out if
anyone knows for sure which *technique* gives the best result in terms
of consistency and effect. I like the smaller stroke and more wrist
action and I'm wondering if I should modify my forehand to do the same
as the backhand although the shot isn't as natural.
Scott
Craig Oldfield
are
1. Speed of bat when in contact with the ball.
2. Dwell time, or amount of time striking surface is in contact with the ball.
A long arm swing with rotation from the shoulders and hips with possibly a
"whipping" effect using the elbow and wrist all add to speed at the point of
contact. The correct bat angle or even altering the angle to follow the shape
of the ball increases dwell time as does using a tacky rubber or medium/slow
rubber. A fast rubber with bike glue reduces dwell time and thus spin. The
choice of wood for the blade is also important.
IMHO as an English Table Tennis Association One Star coach, I would only echo
what has been said earlier, find a grip which is comfortable and build on that.
--
Craig Oldfield
cr...@thebrink.demon.co.uk
Scott L. Burson
>more spin?
Hoo-ee, there's a lot of stuff here! Despite your frequently heroic efforts
at drawing pictures in ASCII, I find I don't always understand what you're
saying.
>(1) huge stroke, flat face
>(2) huge/medium stroke, wrist snap, flat face
>(3) medium stroke, wrist turn, face rotating
>(4) short to medium stroke, write spin, face rotating
>
>1 and 2 are opposites... and I much prefer 4...
I don't understand how (1) and (2) are opposites. If (4) is meant to
correspond to picture (d) below then I would say you're rotating the face too
much. In my experience the best spin is given by closing the racket maybe 10
or 15 degrees at most over the entire duration of the stroke. The use of
wrist is important too. A very long stroke is not necessary, though I think
a short stroke makes it more difficult to get heavy spin -- somewhere in the
medium range seems best.
>(from the side)
>
>top _
> |\ /__
> \ _____ \ \ |/~\
>(a) o\ or (b) |/ o \ or (c) o\ or (d) ~ o|
> \ ~ / /
>bottom
>
>A is the no face - no angle changing shot... I *think* this is what people
>have been talking about with concavity (see below) ... like this
>
>
> __
> |-_
> o~-____--~~
>
This is what I was calling "convex" -- in my experience it doesn't work as
well as the straight or slightly concave shot.
>now for the opposite in terms of face angle... the changing face angle
>with the loop...
>
> _
> <---~~~o~~~---___
>
>is really nice, but I don't like the total arm movement... it's a lot
>of effort for something that can be returned with ease and no stroke!
>(ie: total 100% flat or partial-tilt block). and you might be out of
>position because of your massive stroke.
This, if I understand you correctly, is the "concave" stroke.
Yes, well, any loop can be blocked! Careful placement and changes of spin and
speed make it more difficult, though.
>I tend to like the "feel" loop (with a shorter swing?) it just doesn't
>really have any spin... it does have a lot of control.
>
> ____
> _-~~ o~-_
>
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but control loops can be very
effective if they're well placed.
>Lately, I've been trying to do a new shot...
>
>as seen from above:
>backhand
> _
> /|
> /o
> \_
>
>It's kind of difficult to draw with small ascii graphics, but it's
>basically the wrist-spin for top spin, but instead of top to bottom
>for top spin, it's like 95% back-left-front for side spin and 5%
>top-to-bottom... it gives excellent side spin which seems to end up
>as top spin by the time it reaches the other side of the table.
Ah yes, the backhand "hook" loop -- very useful. Sidespin loops can be very
handy for moving your opponent around.
> I'd rather have
>total floaters with a ton of spin than fast flat shots that my
>opponent can spin to his/her desire back at me.
Well that, as we were discussing a few weeks ago, is a matter of who you're
playing -- some people are very good at smashing high, spinny shots! Speed is
important too!
>anyway, I'll end my babbling here... I'm just trying to find out if
>anyone knows for sure which *technique* gives the best result in terms
>of consistency and effect. I like the smaller stroke and more wrist
>action and I'm wondering if I should modify my forehand to do the same
>as the backhand although the shot isn't as natural.
In my experience the backhand and forehand techniques are quite different,
i.e., you probably shouldn't change your forehand to be more like the
backhand.
-- Scott
Craig Oldfield
work on your basic shots untill you are happy with them and THEN start looking
for ways of varying them. You comment about easy returns of your fast loops, if
that is the case, vary them during a rally ie a couple of fast loops then a
slower and higher shot will bring your opponent closer to the table giving them
a more difficult task of trying to block or chop a dropping ball. If they
return it high then kill it otherwise it is time for the fast loop again to
catch them out of position.
--
Craig Oldfield
cr...@thebrink.demon.co.uk
Richard S. Fee
by working on a specific, rather specialized shot. I'm working
on fundamentals like improving concentration and reaction time.
My next step is to try to improve my footwork, which currently
resembles a moose doing the two-step. But until I'm seeing and
reacting to the ball quicker all the technique in the world won't
help.
I'm also concentrating on positive attitude and NOT winning. I
played in my first local tournament a few weeks ago. In my first
match, I got so nervous I was just patting the ball back. My opponent
was doing the same thing. Down 16-19 in the 3rd game, I decided that
if I lost playing the way I was playing I would feel really lousy, but
that if I lost hitting the ball the way I wanted to, I would be satisfied.
I eventually pulled the game (and match) out 25-23. It was a great feeling.
Later in the evening I lost to someone who was using a very spinny paddle
who had some tricky serves and not much else. I think I could have won by
taking advantage of some of his weaknesses, but that would have meant changing
my game just to win the match. I decided to stick with my game and ended
up losing. I prefer to win (or lose) on the strengths of my game not on the
weaknesses of my opponents. After all, I'm playing for fun.
Long-winded point: to improve your game, first try to concentrate on the ball
more. Worry about strokes later. I've lost to good players with very unusual
strokes.
Regards
Richard Fee
Scott D. Yelich
Craig> Don't get so bogged down with techniques to produce more spin
Craig> Scott, first off work on your basic shots untill you are happy
Craig> with them and THEN start looking for ways of varying them.
I was like this 6 years ago... I could hit most player's shots back to
them... but when I played REALLY good players, I saw two things:
(1) they said keep my shots down, that is, don't let the balls bounce
more than 4-6 inches from the table.... I found that some good
players, no matter what spin I hit, if the ball bounced above the
net, they slammed it.
One guy spotted my 19 points.. and I LOST --> 21 to 19!
(2) I could get consistent spin and some accuracy... but when I played
better players, I noticed that the could get about 3x as much spin.
Craig> You comment about easy returns of your fast loops, if
Craig> that is the case, vary them during a rally ie a couple of fast
Craig> loops then a slower and higher shot will bring your opponent
Craig> closer to the table giving them a more difficult task of trying
Craig> to block or chop a dropping ball. If they return it high then
Craig> kill it otherwise it is time for the fast loop again to catch
Craig> them out of position. -- Craig Oldfield
thanks. I've definitely changed my forehand stroke... I'm hitting the
ball on the other side of the paddle! I use to hit the ball on the
same side as my thumb, now I hit the ball on the other side! :-) I
can get about 3x as much spin as I use to be able to get -- so I am
very happy. I can do a short stroke or a full stroke... I can do
speed or floaters...
I'm only about 20% as consistent as I was with my other style, but two
notes... first is that I used the other style for like 10 years? and
the second is that the new stroke now feels natural-- it's not as
awkward as trying to make my old stroke "achieve" more. It's easier
to achive more with the new stroke.
I've set up a table with 2 3x7 tables at the opposite end (with the
3x7's standing on end).... and now I'm practicing to become
consistent. As I get more spin on the shots, I tilt the top of the
tables towards me to make the balls come down (they pop up due to
topspin).
It's a lot of fun.
Scott
Scott L. Burson
>Long-winded point: to improve your game, first try to concentrate on the ball
>more. Worry about strokes later. I've lost to good players with very unusual
>strokes.
I completely disagree. I think it's very important to get the form (strokes
and footwork) right at the beginning. Bad habits are very hard to break (as I
know only too well). I've seen new players pick up the game frighteningly
fast when they are helped to get the form right from the beginning.
Learning to read the ball is also important, of course, but that takes
experience, and anyhow it's no good to know what's on the ball if you don't
have a good response.
>My next step is to try to improve my footwork, which currently
>resembles a moose doing the two-step. But until I'm seeing and
>reacting to the ball quicker all the technique in the world won't
>help.
Sure it will. It will help you put more on the ball, which will help you
force your opponent to give you the shot that you want. Unless you're
strictly a defender, that's what the game is all about.
>Later in the evening I lost to someone who was using a very spinny paddle
>who had some tricky serves and not much else. I think I could have won by
>taking advantage of some of his weaknesses, but that would have meant changing
>my game just to win the match. I decided to stick with my game and ended
>up losing. I prefer to win (or lose) on the strengths of my game not on the
>weaknesses of my opponents. After all, I'm playing for fun.
Suit yourself, but you can bet your opponent is taking advantage of *your*
weaknesses!
-- Scott
Matt F. Cary
>It sounds as though many intermediate players try to improve
>by working on a specific, rather specialized shot. I'm working
>on fundamentals like improving concentration and reaction time.
>
>My next step is to try to improve my footwork, which currently
>resembles a moose doing the two-step. But until I'm seeing and
>reacting to the ball quicker all the technique in the world won't
>help.
In my opinion this couldn't be more wrong. My experience with
my own game and observing others who play the game is that it is
learned techniques that allow for better concentration and
reaction time. If you are trying to make yourself play better
and concentrate better by sheer force of will then here's a clue
for you: when you are doing things right, watching the ball and
concentrating are infinitely easier.
Here are several examples. My practice partners and I were all
having difficulty watching the ball on our forehand strokes. We
wanted to watch the ball for as long as possible before contact,
but could not force ourselves to do it consistently and missed
easy shots because of it. Then we were working on our forehand
techniques and one of the things most people don't do is turn
their shoulders enough. When we started turning our shoulders
properly, our heads were automatically in position to watch the
ball for almost the entire path, and as a result our
"concentration" miraculously improved.
Another technique that helped was watching the ball hit the
table (thanks to Scott Priess for this hint). If you focus on
the bounce of the ball then you are watching it at the most
crucial moment in it's path. Once again, not willpower, but
technique.
You specifically mention reaction time, well here are a couple
of techniques to improve it. People are always told to watch
the ball and many people who are trying to concentrate better do
exactly that, but guess what, it's wrong. After you hit the
ball you should not be watching it. If you continue to watch
the ball after you hit it then your opponents shot will be like
a bolt out of the blue. After you hit the ball you should
switch your attention quickly to your opponent until he hits the
ball, at which point you start watching the ball again. You
need to quickly switch your focus back and forth between the
ball and your opponent.
Another mistake that people make that reduces their reaction
time is to guess needlessly. If they think the opponent is
going to hit the ball to their backhand they prematurely start
to move to their backhand hitting position. If the ball isn't
to their backhand then they must use extra time for switching
back to a forehand. When you are making this mistake it feels
like you are reacting slowly (I know 'cause I still do this),
but in fact it is a technical mistake. The technique I use to
improve this is to get back to ready position with my bat
pointed at the ball so I can switch quickly to either a backhand
or a forehand and to wait until I know which side I have to go
to.
>
>I'm also concentrating on positive attitude and NOT winning. I
>played in my first local tournament a few weeks ago. In my first
>match, I got so nervous I was just patting the ball back. My opponent
>was doing the same thing. Down 16-19 in the 3rd game, I decided that
>if I lost playing the way I was playing I would feel really lousy, but
>that if I lost hitting the ball the way I wanted to, I would be satisfied.
>I eventually pulled the game (and match) out 25-23. It was a great feeling.
Way to go!
Matt Cary Bat: Butterfly Oberon
ca...@nas.nasa.gov Rubber: Apex Lightspeed Attack 2.0
Style: Looper/All-around
Alexander J. Chien
Hi -
Let's see if i can keep this short. i consider practice to be practice
and games/matches to be games/matches. When you get a change to practice,
that is what you should be doing at that time. It's valuable time that should
not be wasted. Practice is the best time to work on your timing, foorwork,
and strokes. your partner should be trying to give you balls in situations that
will allow you to exercise strokes you want to practice. In a game, you should
not be worried about your strokes any more. you should be concentrating on
winning tactics during match play. if you're in a game, and you're still
for example, trying to practice your backhand loop - i think only disaster
can follow. i mean, you'll be there trying to backhand loop shots that are
not possible/should not be backhand looped. you'll be trying to loop balls
to short on the table, you'll pass up balls where you should use your forehand,
and you'll probably try to loop balls which would be better off smashing/
hitting. When you're in a game, you should be concentrating on tactics, not
strokes. If you want to work on your backhand loop during a game - don't think
of success as how many backhand loops you tried to how many got in the table,
think - did I try to backhand loop when i was supposed to?
Game play is very different from practice. In practice everything
should be controlled, done the way things should be, the way you want them
to be done. In a match - you can forget it. Game play is a series of
adjustments - a series of changing your 'style'. the game is a two player game,
if one player refuses to let you do something - you're not going to be able
to do it. And if you try to, you'll start forcing shots, and thats bad.
here are some examples of things im talking about. personally, i would like
to play a close to the table 2-3 feet, agressive fast looping style. Now you
have to match that up with your opponent. Say i run into penhold pips out
blocker with really fast hands. Fast loop after fast loop, block block block,
the ball is always past me after my opening loop before i can blink. my
preferred game isn't going to win me this match no matter how i hard i try.
he's just flat out beating my reaction time.
so now, what can i do? i can go to a number of options. i can try and move
into my hitting game - stay close to the table and smash with this guy.
i can slow down my opening shot - to give me more time to react to the
block coming back. i can back off the table to maybe a 3-5 foot distance - this
should give me more time to react too. Or i could choose to push the ball more,
one extra push here or there could put him out of position to set my big loop up better. or maybe this guy's attack isnt as good as my topspin defense - i go back to a 7-8 foot position and start to lob/topspin defend from there.
Well, my original point is that during a game, you need to be flexible. you
shouldnt be worrying about your strokes - that should be taken care of in
practice. you need to work on your tactics, your fighting spirit, and your mental game.
-Alex
P.S. Short huh?
Scott L. Burson
>
>Hi -
> Let's see if i can keep this short. i consider practice to be practice
>and games/matches to be games/matches. When you get a change to practice,
>that is what you should be doing at that time. It's valuable time that should
>not be wasted. Practice is the best time to work on your timing, foorwork,
>and strokes. your partner should be trying to give you balls in situations that
>will allow you to exercise strokes you want to practice. In a game, you should
>not be worried about your strokes any more. you should be concentrating on
>winning tactics during match play. if you're in a game, and you're still
>for example, trying to practice your backhand loop - i think only disaster
>can follow. i mean, you'll be there trying to backhand loop shots that are
>not possible/should not be backhand looped. you'll be trying to loop balls
>to short on the table, you'll pass up balls where you should use your forehand,
>and you'll probably try to loop balls which would be better off smashing/
>hitting. When you're in a game, you should be concentrating on tactics, not
>strokes. If you want to work on your backhand loop during a game - don't think
>of success as how many backhand loops you tried to how many got in the table,
>think - did I try to backhand loop when i was supposed to?
I don't know. I often find that no matter how much I work on something in
practice, it doesn't become part of my game until I force myself to use it in
a game situation, even though that often means I lose the game in question.
Obviously I don't want to be doing this in an important match, but in those
that don't mean anything I find it can be very helpful.
-- Scott
Scott D. Yelich
>> think - did I try to backhand loop when i was supposed to?
Scott> I don't know. I often find that no matter how much I work on
Scott> something in practice, it doesn't become part of my game until
Scott> I force myself to use it in a game situation, even though that
Scott> often means I lose the game in question. Obviously I don't
Scott> want to be doing this in an important match, but in those that
Scott> don't mean anything I find it can be very helpful.
I force myself to do a [new] shot until it becomes "habit" ... and
then it becomes second nature to do it in any situation.
I'm sure I also probably tend to appear like a giant radioactive
isotope at times... but I haven't beaned anyone recently! (I can't say
the same for the surrounding walls!)
Scott
Steve Hawker
In article <3eerq1$2...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> mad...@med.umich.edu
(Alexander J. Chien) writes:
[complete snip to save bandwidth]
At out club we look at practice as a necessary evil before the real business of
going down the pub can happen.
{and we've had 1 divisional team champs, 2 divisional team r/ups, 2 individual
champ, 3 individual r/ups and 3 mixed doubles champs in our local league in the
last 3 years - so perhaps it works !!}
Scott L. Burson
>I force myself to do a [new] shot until it becomes "habit" ... and
>then it becomes second nature to do it in any situation.
>
>I'm sure I also probably tend to appear like a giant radioactive
>isotope at times... but I haven't beaned anyone recently! (I can't say
>the same for the surrounding walls!)
Ha ha! Yes, my tendency to spray balls is a running joke at my club
("incoming!").
-- Scott
Alexander J. Chien
?
|> I don't know. I often find that no matter how much I work on something in
|> practice, it doesn't become part of my game until I force myself to use it in
|> a game situation, even though that often means I lose the game in question.
|> Obviously I don't want to be doing this in an important match, but in those
|> that don't mean anything I find it can be very helpful.
|>
|> -- Scott
Hi -
im not saying not to use your strokes from practice in your matches.
i'm saying not to `practice` it during a game when the situation is not right.
say you've been working on your forehand loop. if the ball is short and low on
the table, it's not the shot you should try to loop. you should be
pushing or flipping. Say a ball is 10 feet high - don't practice your loop
on that shot. Smash it. If a push comes to you, and it comes off the end of
the table, by all means LOOP it. But you shouldnt be thinking - i want to hit it
with this contact angle, with this timing, exactly at this point in relation to my body. let the technique aspects of the shot work on their own. im saying try to be thinking of: what did my opponent put on the ball? what shot is the right one i should use? where should i place the ball? with how much speed? spin? where should i move to next?
in response to the fact that if you don't use it in a game, shots
don't become part of your game. i believe you`re right. I find that i have
a rather artificial way of classifying my development of strokes: practice,
game, and tournament. it's like a 3 step tier to me. When I start a technique -
everything is bad, then i get better at it in practice. then it becomes good
in practice, but i still find it sucks in game situations. through more experience, i find i can do it well both in practice and in playing games, but
then when i hit a tournament - it still isnt very good. i guess what i'm saying
is that just becuase i can do something in practice dosent mean i can do it well
in a game, and what i can do well in a game situation, still might not be
good enough to be in a tournament.
-Alex