Don Iguana Chinese Rubber Progress Report
Dave Williams
Iguana Labs conference room. The projects are piling up. Upcoming
before the US Open, we're on the hook (he hissed between flicks at the
frozen cricket tray) to test three brand new sheets to the market...two
from Stiga and one from Spintech. All fast. All new.
But what about our Chinese rubber test? Hadn't we been given three DH
sheets, Pronte, the entire 729 family and at least two flavors of Xu
Shaofa? And how does that compare to the Sunflex Power Glue series?
Yes boss. The problem is.....well, what is the problem? Familiarity
and variety, we contended. We're not very familiar and the variety is
almost overwhelming. OK, so what have we learned, His Scaleyness asked.
Here goes.
HISTORIC BASELINE
The baseline for inverted Chinese rubber begins with the concept of a
high grip, inelastic system. Classic Chinese has a long lasting top
sheet that generally seems to have more "rubber" and less "plastic" than
Japanese rubber. The top sheets have historically been more opaque and
less reflective than the Japanese standards. 729 and 999 in their
classic forms featured a variety of sponges from blue to cream to clown
orange, often very heavy, somewhat inconsistent from batch to batch and
very hard...most rated 46 to 50 for sponge density and often weighing as
much a 60 grams, trimmed.
Their basic performance characteristics include a controllable "first
gear" that allows for heavy spin on serve and pushes. At medium speeds,
the prototypical Chinese rubber is not dynamic as compared to Japanese.
The ball is not thrown forward or upward with as much energy as Japanese
sheets. At high speeds, Chinese rubber generates very powerful drives
that combine speed and spin inseparably. That is to say that the best
way to land a drive is to apply top spin. The best way to land a loop
is to hit it fast. The loop kill is the penultimate Chinese rubber
attacking shot.
TEST BASELINE: G888
Our on-going test is not about these classic characteristics. Nor is it
about Tackifire or Juic 999 Elite which are basically high grip Japanese
sheets. Playing all of these "new generation" Chinese sheets, it is
pretty safe to say that Double Happiness G888 is an excellent starting
point for understanding modern Chinese variants. G888 is the "Sriver"
of the new generation. Lighter by maybe 10-15% than 999 sheets, G888
retains the low speed and high speed characteristics of classic Chinese
but uses a medium hard orange sponge (probably 43-44) that brings mid
speed countering, block and counter spinning more in-line with all round
Japanese rubbers like Sriver and Mark V. It is still heavier than
Japanese sheets but after some time with the others, it is clear that
G888 is a well balanced sheet of rubber that allows for mid distance
play better than its predecessors. It is not super fast, but it spins
very well. It doesn't stall and it does cork a little. All round
modern Chinese baseline, it is, this G888.
HURRICANE II and III
Twin sons of different Double Happiness mothers. These two Hurricanes
fall on either side of G888. Both are faster but the similarity ends
there. Hurricane II features 41 grade sponge and noticeably higher
throw angle than any of the Chinese made sheets in the test. For guys
who grew up looping with Japanese standards, Hurricane II is familiar
enough to use your current strokes. It will not feel fast compared to
Bryce or Mendo and will not cork like GPS, Energy or FX...but it will
spin the living daylights out of the ball at all speeds. It is clearly
an evolution that favors players like Wang Liqin and Ma Lin who attack
with spin from everywhere on the court.
Hurricane III is tougher to like at first. It has the same top sheet
composition as Hurricane II but appears to have shorter pip architecture
and one or two degree denser sponge (42/3). The result is very odd,
frankly. You must strike the ball firmly and forward. If you skim too
lightly, Hurricane III makes this disconcerting "snapping" sound....not
a click or a cork, but a snap, like fingernails on a Formica counter
top. On a number of occasions testers actually looked down to make sure
that the rubber was not flapping or delaminated. Hurricane III sends a
clear message. "Come back up to the table and whack this thing."
XU SHOAFA 999 and 999 LCD
In the world of hybrids, these Xu Shoafa sheets do not stray as far into
the future as their DH counterparts. They both actually feature softer
sponge than the three Double Happiness sheets but neither musters as
much throw angle. They play nicely and are spinier than Tackifire or
Juic 999 Elite but, left to there own devices, they play "low and
slow". After a while with them, must Japanese rubber bred offensive
players begin to use longer, flatter swings and eventually use the
rubber to good effect. Xu Shaofu plays best in the hands of players who
grew up with 999 and would require some relearning from most two sided
attackers. If, however, you are looking for backhand rubber that will
push well and play with good control, this may be a good choice because
it is very light for Chinese.
AVALOX PRONTE, SUNFLEX SPOT GLUE POWER and SPOT GLUE CONTROL
These three sheets are the result of a German Japanese
collaboration.....we suspect, the brainchild of German engineering at
Sunflex and Nittaku's busy private label rubber factory. They are
intrinsically different from the test rubbers coming from Chinese
companies. The top sheets are very elastic and very sticky. Very
sticky. Very, very sticky. Lefty's daily driver sheets of Pronte can
still pick up balls off the table after five weeks of regular use.
These three sheets all have higher throw angles than the Chinese ones.
Successively, Spot Glue Control, Spot Glue Power and Avalox Pronte have
higher throw angles, more corking characteristics and, no accident,
successively soft sponges. Thank to their elasticity, all three are
faster that any of the Chinese made sheets, with the possible exception
of Hurricane III at full tilt.
These three sheets are speed glue friendly as well. Even the softest of
the DH sheets can sometime just laugh at your glue brush, refusing to
dome or cork. These German bred alternatives dome when they hear the
glue jar open. Not unexpectedly, Sunflex Power version and the Pronte
can both stall if struck too obliquely, the only two sheets in the test
that do so.
For the most part, the advances in Japanese rubber of the last five
years have been in the area of speed. Bryce remains the speed king.
The Stiga flagship Innova is variation on the theme that adds a level of
elasticity to the speed quest and is clearly in the Bryce genre with a
little more spin than speed. Don may think we've been sleeping while
we're clocked in a the Lab, but in reality, we've been spending some
significant time sorting through a much wider range of performance
characteristics than we expected in this test.
Perhaps, the issue is also about taking a second look at a very positive
impression of Avalox Pronte to make sure it is not just a personal
playing preference. Pronte resembles the playing characteristics of
soft sponge Japanese sheets in speed and sound when looping, the only
sheet in the test that really does so. But, it resembles no other
rubber tested to date in that it offers an amazing amount of grip at all
speeds. A little flick of the wrist on a crosscourt backhand loop
opener can send the ball impossibly wide, bouncing only a third of the
way down the side line. Variations on your serve that used to not
bother good players now create service winners or very weak returns.
You can choose to caress the side of an incoming loop and send your
block angling away from your opponent or your can smack forward and know
that the throw angle will carry the net and you have a good chance of
your counter drive dropping in time to land at the end. Dwell time can
be measured on epochs, rather than micro-seconds.
If we sort through the innovations forwarded to the playing community by
marketing departments over that last 18 months, they have been related
to the interaction of sponge and top sheet and the physics of a ball
that more quickly degrades in spin and speed as it moves forward through
the air. Despite ITTF's best attempts to make speed and tenacity more
important that spin. Spin is what these developers are seeking. G888
and Hurricane II clearly move high grip Chinese sheets in the direction
of better "mechanical" grip, a la softer sponge Japanese products.
But, in our humble opinion, Avalox Pronte shines past both the Double
Happiness innovations and Stiga Innova in offering a very high spin,
glue responsive, all round offensive rubber. Pronte is an option worth
trying for all the but the most determined off-the-bounce attackers for
whom speed and stall prevention the only issue.
Ironic really. 40 mm balls definitely lose their spin faster than 38's,
but it really seems as though the best 40 mm offensive rubbers are ones
that allow players to strike balls with more speed (read elasticity) and
still have enough spin to land (read grip). Once points have begun,
more grip on your rubber allows you to drive the ball to better places
with more consistency. The game is not becoming less spin oriented, but
rather more. Yes, the spin itself is less likely to draw a mistake from
your opponent but it IS the tool that allows you to hit winners from all
over the court.
Coming next to our readers, Alex Chien will be forwarding his thoughts
on the Butterfly VSG 1000 head to head with the elephant gun power of
Spintech's 9th Wonder Carbon, we'll collect some more complete thoughts
on Chinese hybrid 729 sheets and then we'll hear Europe's latest with
two new inverted sheets from Stiga and the latest Blackjack variant.
Rob Kerner from TT Pioneers advised that we need to ready to rock and
roll with the Stiga stuff, one of which, he says is their fastest sheet
yet. T'will be interesting in the light of this current foray into high
spin.
Lefty
marco
III. That Pronte sounds interesting, but if it really is that sticky I'd
probably miss a ton of serve returns with it.
marco
(the problem with going to bed at 8:30pm is that you'll wake up at 4:00am)
"Dave Williams" <da...@mcclarranwilliams.com> wrote in message
news:3CD8FD7A...@mcclarranwilliams.com...
petermoo
How are you maintaining the stickiness of the rubber? Are you keeping it
under a plastic sheet etc? Or does the Pronte maintain its stickiness even
in air? I would like to have your comments on Nittaku Moristo 2000 and its
speed compared to Bryce and perhaps an evaluation of whether the new extra
thick sponge thin topsheet rubbers such as Makkss and Donic Supersonic
really measure up in terms of speed and spin vs Bryce.
Thanks
"Dave Williams" <da...@mcclarranwilliams.com> wrote in message
news:3CD8FD7A...@mcclarranwilliams.com...
Dave Williams
petermoo wrote:
> Dave,
> How are you maintaining the stickiness of the rubber? Are you keeping it
> under a plastic sheet etc? Or does the Pronte maintain its stickiness even
> in air?
I'm using a plastic sheet and I'm making sure that I clean the surface with a
little liquid soap after playing and before storage. I peel my rig apart,
but store the rubber retacked to blade, with the cover sheets attached. The
whole thing lives in a brownie tray sized Tupperware tub in my bag.
Lefty
Alan & Erin Williams
Please note that it's a tub not the size of a photo developing bath, or the size
of a paint-roller tray, but a *brownie tray*. Williams boys *know* that food
sets the scale for all things. ;-)
Alan
'PDA's are the size of ice cream sandwiches'
Sreg W.
the tupperware web site?
T.I.A.
Rick
>
> HURRICANE II and III
>
> Twin sons of different Double Happiness mothers. These two Hurricanes
> fall on either side of G888. Both are faster but the similarity ends
> there. Hurricane II features 41 grade sponge and noticeably higher
> throw angle than any of the Chinese made sheets in the test. For guys
> who grew up looping with Japanese standards, Hurricane II is familiar
> enough to use your current strokes. It will not feel fast compared to
> Bryce or Mendo and will not cork like GPS, Energy or FX...but it will
> spin the living daylights out of the ball at all speeds. It is clearly
> an evolution that favors players like Wang Liqin and Ma Lin who attack
> with spin from everywhere on the court.
>
> Hurricane III is tougher to like at first. It has the same top sheet
> composition as Hurricane II but appears to have shorter pip architecture
> and one or two degree denser sponge (42/3). The result is very odd,
> frankly. You must strike the ball firmly and forward. If you skim too
> lightly, Hurricane III makes this disconcerting "snapping" sound....not
> a click or a cork, but a snap, like fingernails on a Formica counter
> top. On a number of occasions testers actually looked down to make sure
> that the rubber was not flapping or delaminated. Hurricane III sends a
> clear message. "Come back up to the table and whack this thing."
>
Hurr-II has a
harder sponge than Hurr-III. I myself havent tried the rubbers yet,
but my friends say the same. Are the test sheets using Chinese DHS
sponge? Please clarify.
Peter Moo Young
Where can I buy Avalox Pronte at the US Open?
Does it come in 2.0 or 2.2 thickness?
Are you saying it's faster than Bryce?
Thanks
Petermoo
"Dave Williams" <da...@mcclarranwilliams.com> wrote in message
news:3CD8FD7A...@mcclarranwilliams.com...
Victor Kan
from a TT vendor in Taiwan.
They're Double Happiness packaged (as opposed to Nittaku), and have
orange sponge, presumably Chinese DHS (I believe the II and III were
different shades of orange).
Rick wrote:
> .
Dave Williams
Victor's got it right. Our test sheets of Hurricane II and III were
packaged as DH products and both feature bright orange DH sponge with
Chinese characters printed in red on the back and hand graded notations
for density and thickness.
I've dug around since your post and can confirm conclusively that our
results are not scrambled. Three points.
1. The Touch and Weight Test: Hurricane II sponge is much softer to
the squeeze test than III in our test sheets. Our sheet of II weighs 52
grams trimmed for a medium head. The test sheet of III weight 56 grams
trimmed for same blade.
2. The Playing Test: Went back to some notes made during testing and
confirmed that II had the higher throw angle and more corky sound than
III. Only hybridized Pronte had a higher angle than Hurricane II among
all the sheets in this Chinese test.
3. The Factory Blurbs: Check page 8 in the most recent issue of the
USATT magazine. The TT Pioneers ad describes the two sheets in the
same way as the Chinese DH packaging they came in....Hurricane II is the
spinier and harder to control of the two sheets (rated by the factory at
10 speed, 10 spin and 8 control, compared to Hurricane III at 10 speed,
9 spin and 9 control). Interesting, but this dichotomy is also evident
in the two Sunflex Spot Glue hybrid sheets...the Control version has the
harder sponge and the Power version has the softer sponge. Backwards
engineered at first glance, especially for non-gluers, but accurate when
speed gluing.
There does seem to be some confusion between Hurricane II and III and it
could be the result of the proliferation of packaging and sponge
variations, but, trust the lizard on this one. As tested, DH Hurricane
II has softer sponge and has more spin and high throw angle than
Hurricane III.
Lefty
Dave Williams
Peter Moo Young wrote:
> And Dave,
> Where can I buy Avalox Pronte at the US Open?
> Does it come in 2.0 or 2.2 thickness?
> Are you saying it's faster than Bryce?
> Thanks
> Petermoo
TT Pioneers may sell it at the Open. Our test sheets came from Alpha Table
Tennis in California (www.alphatt.com).
Pronte is not necessarily faster than Bryce, but it is much, much spinier at
all speeds than Bryce and is the fastest high grip rubber Don Iguana Labs has
ever tested. It comes in 2.0 and 2.2 thickness. We had one of each in our
test and was hard to distinguish between the two except perhaps to say that
the 2.2 "corked" more and had a generally high throw angle than 2.0. They
seemed to have similar speed and control.
My bet would be, that for most speed gluing players, Pronte would reward hard
swinging power loopers with more "replicable" speed on attacking shots than
Bryce...for one simple reason. The Bryce ball may be a tick faster, but it
will not have as much top spin (less grip) and will land less often,
discouraging swings of that speed. The Pronte ball dips magically toward the
end of its flight (more RPMs) and most speed gluing players would be able to
play with more forward arm speed and still score points if they used Pronte.
Pronte is made for glue.
For non speed gluers, the dynamic is very different. The Pronte sponge is
definitely softer than Bryce and much of Pronte's dynamic performance
envelope is chemically created. Well glued, Pronte plays with remarkable
mechanical grip in addition to the surface grip (picking up balls off the
table with the bottom of your paddle often impresses). Unglued, it is a very
good high spin rubber but stalls more easily and plays much like unglued
Energy, FX or GPS...nowhere near the performance of Bryce, which we think is
the fastest unglued rubber out there.
So, Peter, if you are a speed gluing spin attacker, Pronte will impress. If
you are more of an off the bounce hitter, or play unglued (which I can
sometimes do even though my paddle is speed glued :), Bryce would still be
the speed kind for you, I'd bet.
Lefty
Victor Kan
couple of days on the forehand and I like it.
It too has a magical dip toward the table on balls I (and my opponents
:-) would have sworn would go off the end. It's quite heavy (probably
because of the sponge), so I'm still adjusting to that. If this rubber
lasts more than a couple of months, I think it may be a keeper (but then
I've said that before, yet I keep trying new stuff :-).
Double bounce serves are easy, triple bounce come with a bit of effort.
Yeah, no big deal for tacky rubber, right? But this one plays great
from 10-15' away from the table as well.
Dave Williams
Victor Kan wrote:
> I've been playing with Juic 999 Elite black, max, hard sponge for a
> couple of days on the forehand and I like it.
>
(Snipity snip)
>
>
> Yeah, no big deal for tacky rubber, right? But this one plays great
> from 10-15' away from the table as well.
And that, my friend is the trick, here. I think that we are talking about a new
interest on the part of rubber manufacturers and marketeers to "converge" the
traditional strengths of Chinese and Euro/Japanese style rubber. At first, it
took the form of simply putting Japanese sponge under traditional top sheets, but
now it is going further. Juic 999 Elite, Avalox Pronte, and the Sunflex Spot Glue
twins are not Chinese. The Hurricane line uses no Japanese parts. Both camps are
seeking success in the rubber market by making new, very elastic, high grip
products.
Lefty
marco
becomes noticeably worn after 2 weeks of training 4 days a week. That's 8
playing days, of a few hours each day. The sponge will probably last, since
you have the hard version.
I have just ordered the rubber-rejuvenator from paddle palace. I'm hoping
it will rejuvenate my practice rubbers because those are really dying,
especially the one that I use for robot and multiball. I'll let you know if
that stuff really works or not. I think I'll do my own iguana comparison.
I have 2 sheets of elite that have about the same amount of hours on them.
I'll use the paddle palace stuff on one, and I'll use good old fashioned
WD-40 on the other. And I'll tell you if the expensive stinky stuff is
worth it or not.
marco
"Victor Kan" <victo...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:3CDBB214...@iname.com...
JamesR1347
were equipped with the Chinese "NRG" orange sponge and not the Japanese sponge
versions of Hurricane 2 and 3., Or are the "japanese" sponge versions really a
Chinese sponge.?
Dave Williams
I think you are correct and both of our test sheets were assembled with the orange
NRG Chinese sponge and marketed as a Double Happiness product. I'm not familiar
with the Japanese sponge versions of II and III. Are they sold under the Nittaku
brand or DH? We also tested a sheet of DH G888, which also had orange sponge, but
without the red ink stamping. The G888 sponge had a finely grooved milled surface
that put us to mind of the old "rind" Japanese sponge under Butterfly Kawa
products. The G888 was very difficult to dome when speed gluing.
Lefty
Nils Olsson
(forehand/backhand) the last 10 months (when my knee has allowed) and III
definatly seem harder, and maybe because of that quite a bit less spinny on
loops. The extra control and less spin (which also means that it doesn't have
better control on loops) that the package says the III has seem to come from
the sponge or sponge/rubber interface. While III is nice for my very close to
the table backhand I wouldn't like to use it for my bigger forehand.
Nils
Sreg W.
I have purchased Hurricane III once from Ping-Pong.com and a second time
from Taiwan. The sponge is different although the package looked very much
alike.
Further, I went to Chinese website and realized that Hurricane III is sold
with choices of three types of #20 sponges in China (as depicted in the
following site, hardness of the sponge is 39, 40 or 41):
http://www.pinbo.net/shangcheng/doublehapiness/kuangbiao3.htm
These two HIII I got have a hardness of '42' marked on the package, but each
sponge has different color. Which really got me confused. I believe Double
Happiness has a bad marketing that is not synchronized with their
distriution channel. In addition, they have partnered with Nittaku, which
packaging a Nittaku sponge for sale.
To conclude, when Double Happiness compared HII to HIII, it is not without
saying they are not comparing the type of HII or HIII you'd get easily from
North American. What they meant is that particular type that they sold in
China.
Sreg W.
"Dave Williams" <da...@mcclarranwilliams.com> wrote in message
news:3CDB8FBE...@mcclarranwilliams.com...
marco
Wang Liqin!
No seriously though, after all these years china still can't make a
dependable quality rubber. It's ridiculous. I had similar problems when I
used to use 729. One day it's orange sponge, the next it's blue. No two
sheets ever felt alike, etc.
marco
(no more problems since switching to elite)
"Sreg W." <YPYYIJ...@spammotel.com> wrote in message
news:0B1D8.21219$RR3.22620@sccrnsc02...
neil_...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>I have just ordered the rubber-rejuvenator from paddle palace. I'm hoping
>it will rejuvenate my practice rubbers because those are really dying,
>especially the one that I use for robot and multiball. I'll let you know if
>that stuff really works or not. I think I'll do my own iguana comparison.
>I have 2 sheets of elite that have about the same amount of hours on them.
>I'll use the paddle palace stuff on one, and I'll use good old fashioned
>WD-40 on the other. And I'll tell you if the expensive stinky stuff is
>worth it or not.
>
>marco
>
Marco,
FWIW, I read somewhere that petrrolleum distillates are really bad for
top sheets, and I think WD40 has them. The so called "rejuvenation"
may just be a slight "melting" of the top most, thin layer of the
rubber sheet resulting in a more "sticky" grip. Basically, you are
looping with liquid rubber, and this will age it prematurely.
marco
WD-40 is known to make it o.k. for about 2 practice sessions. So if you use
it every two days you can get another week out of the rubber for sure before
the whole thing becomes useless. Getting another week out of a rubber is
getting 25% more out of it. That's worth it to me if you consider that WD40
costs about $2 for a can, and that can will last probably almost 1 year.
Now, I just walked outside of my room and there's a box on the ground by my
door. My SpinMax cleaner is here. It says "For first application apply in
a circlular motion a few hours before play. Then repeat 30 minutes before
play. For successive days, apply every 3-4 playin occasions.
So I can see right away that this stuff will have to be used regularly, just
like WD40. Only this stuff costs about $15 plus shipping for a can.
O.k., let the comparison begin!
marco
<neil_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cdd1eaa...@news.safepages.com...
MFBaltaxe
of chinese rubbers, but would also like the throw angle and ease of the
japanese rubbers.I am going to give it a try, thanks !
Rick Fung
propaganda says that H-2 has harder sponge and lower looping trajectory (
which I interpret as low throw angle). In TableTennis World magazine 2002
Feb , the following page listed specs of H-2 vs H-3.
http://www.cn-tt.com/ppsj/index.php?year=2002&month=2#
I know you guys can't read Chinese, but suffice to say that col 2 is H-2 and
col 3 is H-3, row 4 is shaw hardness. Trust me :). Also :
a) H-2 has shorter pips, relative to H-3.
b) H-3 is stickier.
c) H-3 pips has higher aspect ratio ( I think)
So my guess is that the lizard's crew may have got a bad batch of DHS
products that are off specs. Sorry Victor, no offense...To satisfy my
curiosity, though,I think I'll order some from TTP and some from HK to try
out for myself..and who knows..
2 cents.CHA-Ching.
marco
Hahahaha, that's funny as shit. No chinese rubber has specs. What's the
point of having specs when there is 100% variation in every product. It's a
joke how much the sponge and other specs vary. No wonder chinese equipment
users like to change the topsheet. Once you find a good sponge you better
keep it because you may never get that exact sponge again.
marco
"Rick Fung" <rick...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:jonD8.55553$GLp1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Dave Williams
was stellar all day. At this particular tournament I've always felt a little
"flat" on the rubber floors, but yesterday on the new German made Stiga tables
(purchased from NA Table Tennis after the event and same one you'll see on the
Tour this year) I was "on the ball" all day.
MFBaltaxe wrote:
We test a lot of rubber and always try and share the Lab's true reactions on
merits of all equipment, because we know, in fact, that all pro equipment has
merit....it's just a matter of "for whom". And for mid distance attack and
effective table spin (serves, pushes and flips) I cannot imagine why players
would NOT want to add Chinese grip to a dynamic Japanese style combination. Even
for players who have used 1.9-2.0 in other rubbers, I think 2.2 Pronte is the
best choice. The sponge from Alpha Table Tennis's stash is a medium sponge but
plays like medium-soft (JO Waldner Nittaku feel), and the 2.2 helps prevent
stalling on counter drives and soft blocks.
My Medallion results were mixed but I hit the ball well all day and took games
from the top three seeds (2050, 1999 and 1789), dominated all my other matches
except for a barn burner with Cheng trained junior Joseph Wang (who's day merits
its own thread).
Lefty
Dave Williams
Lefty
Peter Moo Young
Europe ( the distributors for Nittaku) where I was told I was getting the
Japanese sponge version. The sponge was orange in color and the label said
'42 deg sponge'.
I was surprised how hard hte sponge felt. Can anyone verify what color the
Nitakku sponge for DH2 should be?
I suspect what I got is Chinese sponge!!!
"Dave Williams" <da...@mcclarranwilliams.com> wrote in message
news:3CDBFBE2...@mcclarranwilliams.com...