PRE-MONKEY SHOT ERA WAS REAL FOOS !!
Deceivenot
SHOT FOR PEOPLE THAT WISHED THEY COULD PLAY REAL FOOS. THE RESULT WAS LOWER
SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
SPINING THE ROD. ( THE THING THAT GOT U PUNCHED BACK IN THE PRE-ROD SPINING
DAYS). WELL HECK TORNADO GOT THE GARBAGE PLAYERS TO COME TO THIER TOURNEYS, AND
IT MADE THIER PRODUCT LOOK ATTRACTIVE TO THE BUZZARDS AND THEY SWOOPED IN .(AKA
VALLEY). YEP GUYS WE ARE EQUAL TO ROAD KILL TO VALLEY.......
Kingfoos
Wcybr4food
>SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
>SPINING THE ROD.
wisdom unfolding....with a spell check it would shine.....
Mackintosh Games
>
> MONKEY SHOT WAS THE RESULT OF TORNADO WANTING THE SPORT GROW BY LEGALIZING A
> SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
> DAYS). WELL HECK TORNADO GOT THE GARBAGE PLAYERS TO COME TO THIER TOURNEYS, AND
> IT MADE THIER PRODUCT LOOK ATTRACTIVE TO THE BUZZARDS AND THEY SWOOPED IN .(AKA
> VALLEY). YEP GUYS WE ARE EQUAL TO ROAD KILL TO VALLEY.......
I cannot sit by and let this post slide. First, the rollover shot has
always been within the rules since it broke on the national tournament
scene in 1987. Tornado did not inflict it on the players for any
ulterior motive as you suggest. To think otherwise is blatant ignorance
of the facts. One need only reference the rule book of your choice,
whether tornado, dynamo, or even tournament soccer regarding what is,
and is not, an illegal spin. Nowhere will you find a rule implemented to
allow that shot style, since it already fell within the rules. What was
never done, was to alter the rules to eliminate it. Reason: You would
also have to render illegal the palm roll and/or make it illegal to use
another part of your anatomy (i.e. wrist, forearm) to execute a shot.
Few know that the origionator (Scott Haltom, Thomasville NC) of the
rollover began with the handle on his forearm halfway between the wrist
and elbow. The handle ended up in his palm after execution of the shot
without illegally spinning the man. When the origional rollover
arguement ensued at that 2/87 Houston tournament, another expert player
(native Houstonian) shot a pull shot that, during execution, his hand
completely left the rod after takeoff and then regrasped it upon release
(only on his long). This was never considered a problem. My additional
point here is, that the current one second hand reposition rule is an
attempt to hinder the rollover shooters specifically. It works to limit
rollover quick shooting, which goalies, especially pro ones, hate. Hence
the rule stops the effectiveness of the rollover quick shot. I totally
disagree with this rule, since by nature, foosball is a fast paced sport
and the game should be played within the playfield area, not based on
how or when a person affixes himself to the rod. Remember the clock is
running. Let it be the judge and let the goalie be on guard at all
times. Further, there is fundamental contradiction regarding that rule,
i.e. singles quick shots, hand flexing, and other methods of
questionable distraction employed by players with their hands and arms.
Is it not interesting that no other quick shot of any style is
rule-hindered?
You obviously are not a promoter or anyone who really has the best
interests of the sport in mind. The fact is that the rollover has done
more to enhance participation and competition than anything in the past
two decades. Without it and the new players it ushered in, the tour may
not have even survived. As for the garbage player comment: I submit
that at one time, we were all garbage players. As a promoter, I love to
see new players, and even more than that, enjoy it when they do well. I
am sorry you do not share that joy.
Finally, the buzzards, as you call them, did not swoop in, they were
courted for quite some time. At least now a proven reputable
manufacturer is now in control instead of a single man. Problems still
exist to be sure, but if not for successful promotions Tornado would
have never been sold, and likely would not have even been worth their
hard assets. In fact they probably would have gone out of business,
long before then. Do you consider that, a better option? I think not!
Respectfully
Charles Mackintosh
Foos Dawg
I guess the newsgroup has been too quite for too long heh?
I was actually thinking of trolling as well, but I don't think I would have been so
negative.
More people is what we need in this game!
Besides the monkey shot is like every other shot, in that can be stopped!
Good post though it lured me out of the cool deep water and up into the shallows to
feed and bite on your bait.
Chris Sheppard
A very literate and educational post...maybe more than the original one
deserved...
ANONYMOUS LOW SKILLED PLAYER
Mackintosh Games wrote:
>
> Deceivenot wrote:
> >
> > MONKEY SHOT WAS THE RESULT OF TORNADO WANTING THE SPORT GROW BY LEGALIZING A
> > SHOT FOR PEOPLE THAT WISHED THEY COULD PLAY REAL FOOS. THE RESULT WAS LOWER
> > SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
> > SPINING THE ROD. ( THE THING THAT GOT U PUNCHED BACK IN THE PRE-ROD SPINING
> > DAYS). WELL HECK TORNADO GOT THE GARBAGE PLAYERS TO COME TO THIER TOURNEYS, AND
> > IT MADE THIER PRODUCT LOOK ATTRACTIVE TO THE BUZZARDS AND THEY SWOOPED IN .(AKA
> > VALLEY). YEP GUYS WE ARE EQUAL TO ROAD KILL TO VALLEY.......
>
Deadbar1
may be true that the spin does not violate the rule against 360+ and 360-, the
rules as I learned them (early 80's) provided for grasping the handles at all
times except for sweaty palms and two-handed 5-man D's. Then the usual 1 sec
before a shot or pass. They said nothing about wrists, forearms, or calves.
Again my beef with the shot is that it is not officiable unless we put stop
action cameras on all matches and protractor software on the video to "measure"
the spin. With a time hog, a stopwatch cures that. With jarring, a hand on
the table cures that. With a 365 degree spin? I will always argue that the
shot should be illegal since to me it always was. To me Pin not Spin is the
only talented way to win. That is a personal preference which will probably be
attacked by the Valley/Tornado boot-lickin' booster club but alas negative
ignorance and personal attack posts are the coin of the cyber realm.
FoozAllDay
and then have the man proceed another half rotation and still be legal. That
is usually noticable by human eyes. I shoot a snake for survival. But I'll
tell you what. After the first couple days of a tournament, if you can still
shoot any shot that you have effectively, and still pass the way you do in your
basement, overcoming the nerves, frustration, sweat, adrenaline, and for some,
hangovers....then you are a true player and everyone will know it.
Now, if you jump up and down, scratch your pits, go "oooh oooh oooooh ahhh
ahhh ahhh", with a banana hanging out of your mouth, I think that is considered
a distraction. So yes, the monkey shot should be banned.
Play the game.
mar...@advparadigm.com
ball...it is ALSO measured before you strike the ball. There are two
seperate 360 degree counts involved. The only caveat being when you don't
hit the ball at all, spin ferociously and it does not leave your area, you
get to keep it.
Mike
In article <199809021044...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Bruce Nardoci
>
> Deceivenot wrote:
> >
> > MONKEY SHOT WAS THE RESULT OF TORNADO WANTING THE SPORT GROW BY LEGALIZING A
> > SHOT FOR PEOPLE THAT WISHED THEY COULD PLAY REAL FOOS. THE RESULT WAS LOWER
> > SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
> > SPINING THE ROD. ( THE THING THAT GOT U PUNCHED BACK IN THE PRE-ROD SPINING
> > DAYS). WELL HECK TORNADO GOT THE GARBAGE PLAYERS TO COME TO THIER TOURNEYS, AND
> > IT MADE THIER PRODUCT LOOK ATTRACTIVE TO THE BUZZARDS AND THEY SWOOPED IN .(AKA
> > VALLEY). YEP GUYS WE ARE EQUAL TO ROAD KILL TO VALLEY.......
>
> I cannot sit by and let this post slide. First, the rollover shot has
> always been within the rules since it broke on the national tournament
> scene in 1987. Tornado did not inflict it on the players for any
> ulterior motive as you suggest. To think otherwise is blatant ignorance
> of the facts. One need only reference the rule book of your choice,
> whether tornado, dynamo, or even tournament soccer regarding what is,
> and is not, an illegal spin. Nowhere will you find a rule implemented to
> allow that shot style, since it already fell within the rules. What was
> never done, was to alter the rules to eliminate it. Reason: You would
> also have to render illegal the palm roll and/or make it illegal to use
> another part of your anatomy (i.e. wrist, forearm) to execute a shot.
You wouldn't have to eliminate the palm roll to eliminate the rollover
shot. The Rule used on RP in the USA does (unintentionally) just that.
That rule states that the ball can't be struck/advanced during any part
of a continuous 360 degree spin. That means the part of the swing before
the ball is hit counts towards the 360 degree total (unlike Tornado's
rule), which makes it essentially impossible to do a rollover shot
legally. However, on a palm roll, no one really ever rolls the man 360
degrees in ONE direction. What they do is roll it back about 90-180
degrees, then roll it forward (which counts as the start of a new 360
degrees since you've changed directions) and the forward swing, while
usually having a big follow through, almost never goes all the way
around to the 360 degree mark from where it started. Many RP players
from VA shoot the palm roll on RP.
> (clipped)
>
> My additional
> point here is, that the current one second hand reposition rule is an
> attempt to hinder the rollover shooters specifically. It works to limit
> rollover quick shooting, which goalies, especially pro ones, hate. Hence
> the rule stops the effectiveness of the rollover quick shot. I totally
> disagree with this rule, since by nature, foosball is a fast paced sport
> and the game should be played within the playfield area, not based on
> how or when a person affixes himself to the rod. Remember the clock is
> running. Let it be the judge and let the goalie be on guard at all
> times. Further, there is fundamental contradiction regarding that rule,
> i.e. singles quick shots, hand flexing, and other methods of
> questionable distraction employed by players with their hands and arms.
> Is it not interesting that no other quick shot of any style is
> rule-hindered?
I agree with Charlie here - if the ball is on the 3 bar you should be
ready to block. No one complains when a pull shooter does a rolling pull
without stopping the ball in the pull shot position for a full second.
Likewise, I'm free to shott a quick front pin shot as soon as I touch
the ball.
> (clipped)
> Charles Mackintosh
Bruce Nardoci
>
> Charlie (my friend) is misguided by the Vader Talentless Spin Shot. While it
> may be true that the spin does not violate the rule against 360+ and 360-, the
> rules as I learned them (early 80's) provided for grasping the handles at all
> times except for sweaty palms and two-handed 5-man D's. Then the usual 1 sec
> before a shot or pass. They said nothing about wrists, forearms, or calves.
> Again my beef with the shot is that it is not officiable unless we put stop
> action cameras on all matches and protractor software on the video to "measure"
> the spin. With a time hog, a stopwatch cures that. With jarring, a hand on
> the table cures that. With a 365 degree spin? I will always argue that the
> shot should be illegal since to me it always was. To me Pin not Spin is the
> only talented way to win.
I agree - unless you're doing a front or back pin, you're not using
skill. And its not just the spinning monkey shot shooters. The people
that use pulls and push kicks etc are just one step away from hacking at
a ball as it's rolling past them ;-).
(P.S. Before I get flamed, I'm just kidding)
Denton Sports Cards
only o\corrections would be 1983 not 87
And do you remember the pop shots ? if you could do it consistently
it was very nice, esp with all the combos.
as for blocking the "monkey" there are only so many holes available
and so many feet to block with , so always play your best, and get in
to their mind....
i am old and crusty,but a goalie that thinks i can block more than 50%
of the shots.
But it is that crap that pinballs in that i sure don't like. Then
there is always the proverbial "IN THE BOX!!!" all though it bounced
in the box.......
charles i love the comment on the single man >>>>>>LOL
Hope to see you at the worlds....
Jack
>Deceivenot wrote:
>>
>> MONKEY SHOT WAS THE RESULT OF TORNADO WANTING THE SPORT GROW BY LEGALIZING A
>> SHOT FOR PEOPLE THAT WISHED THEY COULD PLAY REAL FOOS. THE RESULT WAS LOWER
>> SKILLED PLAYERS FLOCKING TO TOUR TOURNAMENTS FOR THERE SHOT AT BEING LUCKY BY
>> SPINING THE ROD. ( THE THING THAT GOT U PUNCHED BACK IN THE PRE-ROD SPINING
>> DAYS). WELL HECK TORNADO GOT THE GARBAGE PLAYERS TO COME TO THIER TOURNEYS, AND
>> IT MADE THIER PRODUCT LOOK ATTRACTIVE TO THE BUZZARDS AND THEY SWOOPED IN .(AKA
>> VALLEY). YEP GUYS WE ARE EQUAL TO ROAD KILL TO VALLEY.......
>
> I cannot sit by and let this post slide. First, the rollover shot has
>always been within the rules since it broke on the national tournament
>scene in 1987. Tornado did not inflict it on the players for any
>ulterior motive as you suggest. To think otherwise is blatant ignorance
>of the facts. One need only reference the rule book of your choice,
>whether tornado, dynamo, or even tournament soccer regarding what is,
>and is not, an illegal spin. Nowhere will you find a rule implemented to
>allow that shot style, since it already fell within the rules. What was
>never done, was to alter the rules to eliminate it. Reason: You would
>also have to render illegal the palm roll and/or make it illegal to use
>another part of your anatomy (i.e. wrist, forearm) to execute a shot.
>Few know that the origionator (Scott Haltom, Thomasville NC) of the
>rollover began with the handle on his forearm halfway between the wrist
>and elbow. The handle ended up in his palm after execution of the shot
>without illegally spinning the man. When the origional rollover
>arguement ensued at that 2/87 Houston tournament, another expert player
>(native Houstonian) shot a pull shot that, during execution, his hand
>completely left the rod after takeoff and then regrasped it upon release
>(only on his long). This was never considered a problem. My additional
>point here is, that the current one second hand reposition rule is an
>attempt to hinder the rollover shooters specifically. It works to limit
>rollover quick shooting, which goalies, especially pro ones, hate. Hence
>the rule stops the effectiveness of the rollover quick shot. I totally
>disagree with this rule, since by nature, foosball is a fast paced sport
>and the game should be played within the playfield area, not based on
>how or when a person affixes himself to the rod. Remember the clock is
>running. Let it be the judge and let the goalie be on guard at all
>times. Further, there is fundamental contradiction regarding that rule,
>i.e. singles quick shots, hand flexing, and other methods of
>questionable distraction employed by players with their hands and arms.
>Is it not interesting that no other quick shot of any style is
>rule-hindered?
> You obviously are not a promoter or anyone who really has the best
>interests of the sport in mind. The fact is that the rollover has done
>more to enhance participation and competition than anything in the past
>two decades. Without it and the new players it ushered in, the tour may
>not have even survived. As for the garbage player comment: I submit
>that at one time, we were all garbage players. As a promoter, I love to
>see new players, and even more than that, enjoy it when they do well. I
>am sorry you do not share that joy.
> Finally, the buzzards, as you call them, did not swoop in, they were
>courted for quite some time. At least now a proven reputable
>manufacturer is now in control instead of a single man. Problems still
>exist to be sure, but if not for successful promotions Tornado would
>have never been sold, and likely would not have even been worth their
>hard assets. In fact they probably would have gone out of business,
>long before then. Do you consider that, a better option? I think not!
>
>Respectfully
>Charles Mackintosh
Denton Sports Cards
508 S. Elm suite i
Denton, Tx 76201
940-380-0410
Rocky Willson
(Deadbar1) writes:
>
>Charlie (my friend) is misguided by the Vader Talentless Spin Shot.
While it
>may be true that the spin does not violate the rule against 360+ and
360-, the
>rules as I learned them (early 80's) provided for grasping the handles
at all
>times except for sweaty palms and two-handed 5-man D's. Then the
usual 1 sec
>before a shot or pass.
Odd, that that was not the way the rules were when I was playing back
then.
Odder still is that before the time period you cite, in the
early/early-mid 70's, spinning was legal. If I remember correctly, the
"before" rule was instituted in mid '75, and the "after" rule was added
late '75 or early '76.
Of course this was BEFORE the USTSA. I think it was WTSA (World Table
Soccer Association) at that time.
..................................Rocky Willson
Kingfoos
Brian
Steven A. Dupre
1) It would not be necessary to ban a palm roll in order to ban a snake (such
language already exists in the RP rules as described elsewhere in this thread).
2) Although the rollover may not have ever violated the LETTER of the rules, it
very clearly violates the original INTENTION of the rules. Rollover defenders are
beginning to sound like Clinton defenders.
Steven A. Dupre
David_...@sabre.com
dup...@egr.uri.edu wrote:
> Sorry Charles, I must respectfully disagree.
> 1) It would not be necessary to ban a palm roll in order to ban a snake
(such
> language already exists in the RP rules as described elsewhere in this
thread).
> 2) Although the rollover may not have ever violated the LETTER of the rules,
it
> very clearly violates the original INTENTION of the rules. Rollover defenders
are
> beginning to sound like Clinton defenders.
>
> Steven A. Dupre
The intention of the rule? The rule that everyone quotes is the one under the
distraction section stating (paraphrased) that one must have both hands on
the rod and grasp the rod for a full second before shooting. The intent is
to keep people from taking there hands off the rods in a distracting manner
and immediately grasp and shoot. As far as spinning the intent of the rule
was, I'm sure, not to nit pick over a shot thats total rotation is about 380
degrees (before and after striking the ball) but to keep people from flailing
wildly with spinning rods. Now i'm sure many people's opinion of roll-over
shooters is just that, that they are flailing wildly spinning the rods, but
it is the same as any other shot. Every shot you can name has certain
inherent advantages and disadvantages and the rollover is no different. Right
now it just seems to have the most going for it. 5 years ago the pull did,
big deal.
-David
Mackintosh Games
>
> Sorry Charles, I must respectfully disagree.
> 1) It would not be necessary to ban a palm roll in order to ban a snake (such
> language already exists in the RP rules as described elsewhere in this thread).
> 2) Although the rollover may not have ever violated the LETTER of the rules, it
> very clearly violates the original INTENTION of the rules. Rollover defenders are
> beginning to sound like Clinton defenders.
>
> Steven A. Dupre
>
>
> > One need only reference the rule book of your choice,
> > whether tornado, dynamo, or even tournament soccer regarding what is,
> > and is not, an illegal spin. Nowhere will you find a rule implemented to
> > allow that shot style, since it already fell within the rules. What was
> > never done, was to alter the rules to eliminate it. Reason: You would
> > also have to render illegal the palm roll and/or make it illegal to use
> > another part of your anatomy (i.e. wrist, forearm) to execute a shot.
To Bruce:
I was not ignorant of the Rene Pierre rule when I made my post. My
point was, that all American rules and competition promotions never
disallowed the rollover.
To Jack:
The rollover was introduced nationally at the Tornado Shelter in
Pasadena Texas in February 1987 at the "$10,000 World's Continued"
tournament, run by Dave Courington. His premise for the tournament was
to offer World championship titles in events on Tornado that had been
only on Dynamo (i.e. goalie wars and a couple of other specialty events)
at the previous World's, the first year that the World's had both tables
on site (1986). Of the dozen players that attended from NC, only Scott
Haltom shot the rollover. Others in NC were already using it locally
though. Thanks for the compliments. I look forward to seeing you at
worlds too.
To Steve:
Granted the spirit of the rule is to stop a spin (I would argue as
David has, an uncontrolled one). Technically the rollover is not a
spin, although it appears to be so. As we all know, appearances can, and
in this case are, deceiving. That a clever player learned to shoot a
shot WELL WITHIN the rules, and then it caught on as a preferred style,
for any reason, is not just cause to render it illegal. Sports is
replete with players developing techniques that were borderline, yet
within the rules, to gain advantage or opportunity. Finally, the
intention of the rule, you mention, as it pertains to the rollover would
have probably allowed it anyway. Why? Because it clearly is a
controlled shot with options. That people attack it so, is quite
humorous, and seems more related to personal preference and ego,
considering the facts. I find the Clinton comment amusing. I would say
that instead, it is true of rollover detractors. Although I'm not a
Clinton fan, clearly if he were a foozer he would shoot a rollover,
since he prefers "controlled spin". LOL!
Your turn, :)
Charles "still shooting a pull shot" Mackintosh
MdlDnk42
any time?
Too simple?
Newt
Runin2fun
Wcybr4food
>now it just seems to have the most going for it. 5 years ago the pull did,
>big deal.
I have avoided this rollover shot stuff...but the shot sickens and bores me to
tears....I used to become absorbed in the chess match of foosball...I would sit
in the pits between my matches...watching my competetors go at it....I learned
a tremendous amount from watching tom spear break down a defense, or doug furry
come up with one...just in time to turn a match.....it was so cool to watch a
pull shooter hit the hole in perfect timing.....
recently I watched a singles final where both players shot a spin shot....I
refuse to even give it any more credit than that....and I was so bored as they
flailed at one another.....and I watched the crowd as well....yuck...
both players were skilled on the other rods....so they had developed the
finnesse of the game.....
are the new players doing so???
where is the creativity? the ball control?
smash mouth foosball....wonderful...is the game about winning? just
saying....
ken" old, tired, retired....and wired"alwell
Rocky Willson
When the rule was changed it was to keep players from randomly spinning
the 5-bars as a defensive maneuver. When this was allowed, it was a
very effective way to defend against goalie shots in singles. Wide
World of Sports was going to do a piece on a championship and the
powers that were didn't want the game to look quite that sloppy and
unprofessional. Initially spinning was only defined as "the rotation
of the soccer figure more than 360 degrees BEFORE striking the ball".
This allowed a singles player to hit the ball and let the rod go.
Eventually that was changed to the current rule.
The current rule allows for "flip over straights" like the straight for
a european front pin, and for some pull shooters. It the day the rule
was made another common move was to toss the ball back into the ramped
corner of the table, and as it rolled down to the back of one of the
men on the 2-bar, the goalie would flip over the man and effect a pass
to the forward.
None of these moves would be allowed by a simple no more than 360
degree rule.
To answer your question, yes, such a rule would be too simple to cover
the task of satisfying the needs of all legitimate players.
...............................Rocky Willson
Kevin D. Snodgrass
<snip>
> To Steve:
> Granted the spirit of the rule is to stop a spin (I would argue as
> David has, an uncontrolled one). Technically the rollover is not a
> spin, although it appears to be so. As we all know, appearances can, and
> in this case are, deceiving. That a clever player learned to shoot a
> shot WELL WITHIN the rules, and then it caught on as a preferred style,
> for any reason, is not just cause to render it illegal. Sports is
> replete with players developing techniques that were borderline, yet
> within the rules, to gain advantage or opportunity. Finally, the
Reminds of of the "Lew Alcinder Rule" that the control-freak
NCAA imposed on the great sport of college basketball to
prevent Alcinder (now Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) from dominating
the game. The rule prevented what we now call "dunking".
Alcinder then really worked on his sky hook, and the hall of
fame has some nice pictures and stats... Nice to see
"dunking" allowed in college basketball again.
> intention of the rule, you mention, as it pertains to the rollover would
> have probably allowed it anyway. Why? Because it clearly is a
> controlled shot with options. That people attack it so, is quite
> humorous, and seems more related to personal preference and ego,
Plus the fact that many of the detractors get toasted by
it. (Awaiting the droves of detractors stating the are a
brick wall for the shot. If so, why eliminate it? Such
illogic...) I remember when we first learned the pull kick
(way back in 1978 or so, little high school in the middle of
Nebraska) and how the couple of good players that used it
dominated local play. The goalies that couldn't stop it
whined non-stop.
> considering the facts. I find the Clinton comment amusing. I would say
> that instead, it is true of rollover detractors. Although I'm not a
> Clinton fan, clearly if he were a foozer he would shoot a rollover,
> since he prefers "controlled spin". LOL!
Now here I will disagree. I don't consider the spin to be
in control. I just keep getting dizzier every day...
--
Kevin D. Snodgrass
New spam-proofed email address,
intelligent beings will adjust.
Wcybr4food
um....this is really a stupid question....and I am embarrassed...not a
lot....but my point had no point...I fear...so I shall ramble back to the old
foosers home.......and drool into my rice crispies...dreaming of ideals I shall
never get you folks to achieve....it used to work on my opponents before a
match....hah
Ken"you can't take it with you, if you never had it"Alwell
moon...@my-dejanews.com
like to answer this. First I have only been playing in real tournaments for
2.5 years . I have worked at my game and have made semi-pro and could have
made pro(the new watered down version that is)if I had chosen to attend a few
more majors. I started out with a pull on the bar tables a few years before.
Because of arm and endurance problems as well as the effectiveness I learned
a Roll Over. Since I shoot both and have only been playing a brief
time(compared to the top players such as your self)mine should be a pretty
unbiased opinion. To make my post shorter I basically agree with your every
point. Anyone can generate power with a roll over so every shot they hit can
be hard. The game to me was always about the sound of the ball crunching into
the goal . Winning was big but nothing compared to the feeling of taking that
key ball and reading the hole and crunching it in. With the roll over I feel
like I am cheating because when I ez up just like in golf I hit it just as
hard. To shot the Roll Over well you have to not Over Power it because power
is so ez to generate. Besides which it is BORING to watch,defend and shoot.
How many people do you know who have another shot yet use the roll over in
fun matches where winning is not the key??? I would even join you on the war
for no 360 in one direction rule because I feel it would add to the game just
as some of the table changes Bruce suggested might. However if the reports of
the masters and open being canceled are true I think I may join you in
retirement instead. That will be the death knell for the tour as far as I am
concerned. I will not continue to practice for a game there is only two
majors for no matter how much I love it. If it is true my table will be for
sale after the NC states. I had kind of hoped to watch your push kick before
I quit. How about you coming to NC States ??? That and maybe a Kentucky and I
am done. Don't worry Rick and Tony we will still make Josh's in Oct that's
before the NC States anyway. Allen Boulware (for those memory impaired )
In article <199809060946...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
BrU
......
> as some of the table changes Bruce suggested might. However if the reports of
> the masters and open being canceled are true I think I may join you in
> retirement instead. That will be the death knell for the tour as far as I am
> concerned. I will not continue to practice for a game there is only two
Whoa there! Allen! (Brian Uytiepo here) Greetings and salutations, and
say hullo
to Darren Bone, too, but what is this about Atlanta and the Open being
cancelled?
Where'd you hear this? So there'll only be a Kick-Off, Nationals, and
Worlds?
This is not good news.... I better accelerate supporting regional events
with
Rick's tour!
Bri
moon...@my-dejanews.com
and posted the changes.....Hi back :) will tell DB of your greetings.
In article <35F539...@bellsouth.net>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Runin2fun
.remember guys this is a business.....
nozibele sithole
Foos Dawg <Foos_Dawg_Hard@Play.!!> wrote in article
<6shkl3$8jg$1...@nrccsb2.di.nrc.ca>...
> Oh ya here we go, bring on the bashing!!
> I guess the newsgroup has been too quite for too long heh?
> I was actually thinking of trolling as well, but I don't think I would
have been so
> negative.
> More people is what we need in this game!
> Besides the monkey shot is like every other shot, in that can be stopped!
> Good post though it lured me out of the cool deep water and up into the
shallows to
> feed and bite on your bait.
>
Bruce Nardoci
>
> (clipped)
>
> The current rule allows for "flip over straights" like the straight for
> a european front pin, and for some pull shooters. It the day the rule
> was made another common move was to toss the ball back into the ramped
> corner of the table, and as it rolled down to the back of one of the
> men on the 2-bar, the goalie would flip over the man and effect a pass
> to the forward.
It's possible to hit a straight off the European style front pin without
spinning the rod. Simply come off the ball and move to the side of the
ball and then back behind the ball and hit it forward. It can be done
faster and harder than you can do it by spinning and catching the bar,
since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
more than one.
Rocky Willson
<foot...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>It's possible to hit a straight off the European style front pin
without
>spinning the rod. Simply come off the ball and move to the side of the
>ball and then back behind the ball and hit it forward. It can be done
>faster and harder than you can do it by spinning and catching the bar,
>since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
>more than one.
>
I would have to simply disagree with this statement.
This is not a simple personal preference, but a conclusion after
attempting to learn both "straights" and choosing the spin straight
because of its much higher effectiveness.
Besides, one would think that Dieter and the other Europeans would
shoot it your way if it indeed was better.
Now with Frederico being the European Front-pinner to beat, I guess I
would have defer to his conclusions on this one. The last time I
played him he didn't shoot any spin straights, but he also didn't shoot
the straight you mentioned, either. Actually one of his moves was to
hover over the unpinned ball and if you left the straight in that
situation he would simply hit it straight.
Anyway from my experience, the one I shoot is faster and more accurate
than the one you describe, but it may be different for different
people.
................................Rocky Willson
PS:
in answer to:
>since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
>more than one.
>
Wanna Bet? I can spin as fast as I can and still catch it before 360
After.
.................................R.W.
Foosnut2
>>Bruce Nardoci writes:
>>It's possible to hit a straight off the European style front pin
>without
>>spinning the rod. Simply come off the ball and move to the side of the
>>ball and then back behind the ball and hit it forward. It can be done
>>faster and harder than you can do it by spinning and catching the bar,
>>since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
>>more than one.
>>
>
>
I absolutely agree with Bruce on this, Rocky. I can bury the pin shot straight
like there's no tommorrow, but the key is it should be hit open- handed with a
palm roll. It is definitely MUCH faster than a spin straight. Anyone out
there: try this at home and give us your conclusions.
>Anyway from my experience, the one I shoot is faster and more accurate
>than the one you describe, but it may be different for different
>people.
This may be possible. Let's hear reports from those players out there with
their own tables.
Jim (Full-Ninja-Snap) McKenney
mar...@advparadigm.com
all of the move off the ball and come back around it variety.
Mike
In article <6ta3hb$h...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
roc...@ix.netcom.com(Rocky Willson) wrote:
> In <35F85273...@worldnet.att.net> Bruce Nardoci
> <foot...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >
> >It's possible to hit a straight off the European style front pin
> without
> >spinning the rod. Simply come off the ball and move to the side of the
> >ball and then back behind the ball and hit it forward. It can be done
> >faster and harder than you can do it by spinning and catching the bar,
> >since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
> >more than one.
> >
>
> I would have to simply disagree with this statement.
>
> This is not a simple personal preference, but a conclusion after
> attempting to learn both "straights" and choosing the spin straight
> because of its much higher effectiveness.
>
> Besides, one would think that Dieter and the other Europeans would
> shoot it your way if it indeed was better.
>
> Now with Frederico being the European Front-pinner to beat, I guess I
> would have defer to his conclusions on this one. The last time I
> played him he didn't shoot any spin straights, but he also didn't shoot
> the straight you mentioned, either. Actually one of his moves was to
> hover over the unpinned ball and if you left the straight in that
> situation he would simply hit it straight.
>
> Anyway from my experience, the one I shoot is faster and more accurate
> than the one you describe, but it may be different for different
> people.
>
> ................................Rocky Willson
>
> PS:
>
> in answer to:
>
> >since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
> >more than one.
> >
>
> Wanna Bet? I can spin as fast as I can and still catch it before 360
> After.
>
> .................................R.W.
Bruce Nardoci
>
> >Rocky Willson wrote:
>
> >>It's possible to hit a straight off the European style front pin
> >without
> >>spinning the rod. Simply come off the ball and move to the side of the
> >>ball and then back behind the ball and hit it forward. It can be done
> >>faster and harder than you can do it by spinning and catching the bar,
> >>since you can't spin it very fast and still catch it before it spins
> >>more than one.
> >>
> >
> >
>
> like there's no tommorrow, but the key is it should be hit open- handed with a
> palm roll. It is definitely MUCH faster than a spin straight. Anyone out
> there: try this at home and give us your conclusions.
>
> >than the one you describe, but it may be different for different
> >people.
>
> their own tables.
>
> Jim (Full-Ninja-Snap) McKenney
Frederico does his straights (and also his cut/angles shots) by coming
around the ball (with a palm roll) rather than spinning. Personally, I
use a closed hand to do the straight (as well as my normal pin shot
series), and can hit it as quick and hard as I want. While I've never
seen Rocky's straight, I have seen many europeans use the "spin
straight", and none of them were anywhere near as fast/hard as the wrap
around method. I don't really see how it's possible to spin and let go
of the rod and then recatch it before it goes around more than once as
fast as you could swing if you didn't have to worry about stopping the
spin.
Jeffrey S. Kobal
> I would even join you on the war
> for no 360 in one direction rule because I feel it would add to the game just
> as some of the table changes Bruce suggested might.
I'm not sure why this discussion has focused so much on the 360-degrees aspect of
the roll-over, when the most 'questionable' part of the shot is the grip. Isn't it
in the rules that your HAND must be on the rod for a full second before you can
shoot the ball? So why it is legal for someone to put their wrist (not hand) on
the handle, then roll it into their hand for the shot? If that's legal, then why
can't it go further up your arm, like halfway to your elbow? Or past your elbow?
If that's the case, then why should you have to have your hand anywhere near the
rod? Is it legal to use your knees or feet, then?
If the "hand must be on the rod" rule doesn't include the wrist, arm, and other
body parts, I would say that most roll-over shooters are breaking the rules with
their shot.
Personally, I'd like to see a rule stating that your hand must be in contact with
the rod throughout a shot/pass (making a spin-once-and-catch illegal). Too often
I've seen arguments over "loss of control" and how far the rod went around, because
a person gave the rod a quick spin and caught it immediately, when it is near
impossible to know exactly how far it went around continuously. Beyond that, it
would force more skilled and controlled play.
Jeff
moon...@my-dejanews.com
n article <35FB6F77...@atibm.net>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
William Henderson
Monkey shot is boring. No different than the one man pass that is now
illegal or waiting 30 seconds to shoot or pass.
Ban it for the betterment of the game. (yeah right)
bill (I will go back into the basement now) henderson
moon...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6tgoce$9jm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...