Stupid Question
tn...@mucks.net
was playing the goalie was always a one man and the corners
had ramps.
The new tables that I have seen have no ramps and a three
man goalie. Is this standard now? I saw a picture of a tournament
and they had one man goalies. What's up with the goalies?
G. Sumner Hayes
In the US, most tournaments are played on Tornado foosball tables.
These have 3 goalies. In Europe, some 1-goalie tables (Rene Pierre,
Garlando, Bonzini) are used; these are the so-called "French-style"
tables. (There are other Tornado-ish tables like Dynamo around too,
but Tornado is by far the most popular and IMO the best--nowadays
one company makes both Dynamo and Tornado).
If you play in the US, you probably want to learn to play on Tornado
tables. They're the most popular by far, and most of the big-money
tournaments are on Tornado. Once you learn one style, you might want
to try the other; they're both fun in different ways.
Really, the number of goalies isn't the biggest difference between
the tables. The players are shaped differently, and on French tables
are generally all metal whereas they're plastic on Tornado (but the
plastic men found on Tornado are very good). The spacing between men
is somewhat greater on the front line (3-bar) of the French tables,
to me that makes push-kick and pull-kicks harder but that might just be
because I'm more used to the Tornado spacing. The French-style tables
tend to be a bit grippier and more favorable to front-pin and heel shots,
Tornados tend to be faster and are better for snake shots (which I think
are illegal on Bonzini tours in the US but not Europe). But a good shot
will work on any good table with some practice. Angles and banks seem
easier on the french tables (foot shape helps the angles, the edge strip
on Tornado makes some banks fly around). I've never seen a scorpion on a
French table. The Tornado men seem to make catching hard passes easier,
but again that could just be my experience.
There used to be 1-goalie tables that were more Tornado-ish than the
French tables, but I don't go back that far (insert something about
other older tables here--Deutscher Meister? Tournament Soccer? Premier
Soccer?)
Sumner
--
rage, rage against the dying of the light
Usenet email address changes periodically. sumner-nntp at forceovermass
period com is more permanent.
Bruce Nardoci
goalies (because its based on the real game of soccer which uses 11 men,
not 13). The only tables that have 3 man goalies are Tornado (who
originated the concept), and recent copies of it like some Dynamos and
Shelti. I'm not a fan of the 3 man goalies - too much slop goes off
those men that are right beside the goal, without much additional
benefit to them.
BTW, Garlando is not a "French Style" table, although from a distance it
does look similar (telescoping rods, etc - however it plays completely
unlike French Style tables which involve more grippiness than a Tornado
table, and FAR more than a Garlando which may be the least grippy of
all). Maybe Boris will post a link to his handy table comparison chart.
G. Sumner Hayes
> Almost all foosball tables ever made, and still being made, have 1 man
> goalies (because its based on the real game of soccer which uses 11 men,
> not 13). The only tables that have 3 man goalies are Tornado (who
> originated the concept), and recent copies of it like some Dynamos and
> Shelti. I'm not a fan of the 3 man goalies - too much slop goes off
> those men that are right beside the goal, without much additional
> benefit to them.
I find the 3rd man to be moderately helpful for trapping loose balls,
but it's not all that helpful; I don't have too much trouble with slop
off that man (in fact I find that my opponents tend to suffer from that a
lot more than me). FWIW, I learned to play on a 1-goalie table (Premier
Soccer, a cheapie Asian table that is a lot nicer than most cheapie tables
I seen) before switching to Tornado when I started to play "seriously".
Seriously in quotes 'cause I'm still a rook and have only been playing
for about a year on Tornado (2 years total), but maybe a DYP and a couple
hours of pickup against semipros each week, along with a couple hours
of practice.
I've only once played on a Bonzini, I found it interesting--the table I
learned on had little round feet that were amenable to hard sliding angle
shots, and those seemed possible on the Bonzini as well. Likewise banks
seemed more reliable. I'd love to play a good semipro+ French-style
player on one to see what is really possible.
The table I learned on had a someone dubious property of the corner
banks: if you rolled the ball on to them at an exact angle, it'd go
between the goalie and the edge of the goal with absolutely no way of
stopping it. But it was really hard to get right, and easy to defend
once you knew about it 'cause you had to hit the shot so slow to get
the right curve. I'd assume better made 1-goalie tables don't have
that property. But it served well as an introduction to the game.
> BTW, Garlando is not a "French Style" table, although from a distance it
> does look similar
Thanks for the correction, like I said I'm still new to the game and
trying to learn some of the history and breadth; playing in the DC
area, there really isn't much besides Tornado (which I enjoy a lot, don't
get me wrong, and it'll be years before I feel like I've mastered any
facet of the game on this table).
> Maybe Boris will post a link to his handy table comparison chart.
That'd be cool if he reads this.
Moonglum
> Almost all foosball tables ever made,
Hmmm Tornado/Dynmo is probably making numbers to question this.
> goalies (because its based on the real game of soccer which uses 11 men,
> not 13). The only tables that have 3 man goalies are Tornado (who
> originated the concept), and recent copies of it like some Dynamos and
> Shelti.
I'm not a fan of the 3 man goalies - too much slop goes off
those men that are right beside the goal, without much additional
benefit to them.
It does make having a level playing field Possible so that a more
consistant ball roll can be determined. Also collers are put on most
tables so the goalie will stay in the goal area so they are not
needed. I am still unsure as to my personal preference.
> BTW, Garlando is not a "French Style" table, although from a distance it
> does look similar (telescoping rods, etc - however it plays completely
> unlike French Style tables which involve more grippiness than a Tornado
> table, and FAR more than a Garlando which may be the least grippy of
> all).
Depends on which Garlando the sand blasted tops will allow you to use
pretty much the whole range of front pin shots. The problem being the
balls are so light you have no sense of feel.
Snake Blocker
I was somewhat intrigued with the 3 man goalie rod. After having a table in
my home to practice on and to learn every single angle, shot, slop, bank,
and blocks, I also discovered that the 3 man goalie had a very big benefit
on offense by having 3 men to shoot with instead of just one! Today, I am
still amazed as to the endless shots that the 3 men can make!!
Foospaul
I started playing in the mid 70's on all the Tournament soccer
tables with 1 goalie and ramps as well. I miss that setup because the
slop factor is much greater on Tornado. I call those ouside
goalies"Traitors"cause of all the assists they perform for balls going
off them and into the goal at extreme angles. I'm almost ready to
start a campaign whereby evey tornado table has to change those ouside
goalie men to the other team! Black end goalies on the yellow side
and vice versa. I know a couple of sly rookies that have no shots
from the goalie area, so all they try to do is hit the ball hard down
the sidelines into and off of those traitor men. They do this in fear
of getting stuffed if they shoot in front of there goal. Ramps and 1
goalie on tornado would improve the clean shot factor and reduce the
slop.
Bruce Nardoci
We missed you at the (Tornado) NC State Tournament. I hear you've moved
to Hungary. Have you had a chance to play in any tournaments in Europe,
and if so on what tables and what did you think?
Bruce
Boris
>That'd be cool if he reads this.
I can't post the link, as I don't know anywhere it is posted online (I
contribute to, but do not maintain the BFA website), but I have posted
the html code a few times.
It's archived on CD, as my disc is full, and I'm about to upgrade the
computer system (maybe I'll finally be able to read .doc and .xls files,
and view Flash pages!). I'll post the chart again once I have located
it.
Someone must have downloaded the code...
I won't set the copyright lawyers on to you if you post it back ;-)
Boris
Boris
Moonglum wrote:
From the top of my head on a scale of 0 (slickest) to 10 (grippiest)
0 Sportcrapft (plastic men, hard balls, freudian mispront), Futbolin (ceramic balls, metal men, curved
playfield)
1 Roberto-Sport (Italian smooth glass)
2 FAS (Italian smooth glass), Garlando (smooth glass or laminate)
3 Garlando (smooth/laminate & rounded feet)
4 Garlando/FABI/FAS (sandblasted glass, standard feet), Deutscher Meister, Vitalite
5. Garlando (Sandblasted glass, rounded feet), Tornado
6 Loewen, TS, Leonhardt, Bonzini/Rene Pierre (plastic balls)
7 Bonzini/Rene-Pierre (metal men, cork balls)
8 Topper (wooden men, cork balls)
9. Soccer 2000 (wooden men, flat feet, dressed cork balls, corrugated glass surface)
10 Jupiter (as Soccer 2000 but with sandblasted glass surface)
Purely a personal opinion.
Boris
Rocky Willson
You might want to check out your stats on this. At the last games show I attended,
at least half of the manufacturers were using the 3-man goalie system. I am amazed
at the number of manufacturers who have copied the "new tradition" that was started
by Tornado. My guess is that worldwide, that the 3 man goalie units vs. 1 man
goalie units is real close to 50/50 at this point, and if the trend continues, which
is likely, the 3 man goalie will be the new standard worldwide.
Under any circumstances, saying that "nearly all tables manufactured use the 1 man
goalie" certainly doesn't appear true from my vantage point.
Also I think that the modern tables (3-man goalies) are less of a departure from
soccer because they don't have hills on the field. 13 men? Hills on the field?
Which is worse? I guess it is a matter of personal preference.
Other brands that use it (3 men on the goalie rod) now (other than Tornado and
Dynamo) are:
Premier,
Tournament Soccer,
KT Sports,
Sportcraft (who I think is currently the largest manufacturer of Soccer tables in
the World)
Halex,
American,
Murray.
(and these are just off the top of my head--I'm sure there are others.)
.......................................Rocky Willson
Bruce Nardoci
You're probably right about the stats - I was referring more to the
design of individual manufacturers tables (e.g., 10 different
manufacturers produce 1 man goalie tables), not the quantity of tables
produced (e.g., 3 different manufacturers have 3 man goalie tables but
produce more total number of tables than the other 10 combined). Despite
this, from your list it looks like (unfortunately) the 3 man goalie
thing is catching on.
As to the merits of the 3 man goalie vs ramps (besides the various
playing characteristics arguments like extra slop vs extra passing
options etc.), I think they were initially developed because the corner
ramps would sometimes break on tables. That doesn't apply to tables that
are well made to where the corner ramps are an integral piece of the
playfield, and not a separate piece attached onto the top of the
playfield. For instance, Bonzini tables (1 man goalies) have very slight
ramps, hardly even perceptible - just enough so that the ball won't come
to a complete stop in the corners, and the playfield covers the floor
and ramp in one seamless piece. This is a better design than like for
instance TS tables had, with significant ramps that could severely
influence the roll of the ball (sometimes into the goal), and could
break or come loose, etc.
GARRETT A. CRIBBS
Please use Rene-Pierre separately from Bonzini.
I cringe when ever I see this.
Alan
> 7 Bonzini/Rene-Pierre (metal men, cork balls)
>
.
>
> Boris
>
mikee
This is right of course - the slop factor increased when they made a
short cut on quality and replaced the ramps with those two slop
funnels - its easier to build and they make more money. Its easier
for them to make it that way and if the players aren't willing enough
to influence the table makers, then everyone has to settle for an
inferior design. The vendors can get over easy on a group like that
and its all the better if the newer players dont know what the
difference is. They may offer opportunity for more shots but whatever
they gain there they lose with more points being scored without skill
involved. It doesn't guarantee that will always happen but the
averages are what counts the most.
Its too bad because the tornado table has always always been a better
table construction wise than the T.S, tables ever were - but its not
as good as it could be with a few minor alterations that wouldn't take
anything away from anyone's (non-slop) game and the extra control
gained could only give more people more confidence.
I was reading some valley tournament results that were some pretty
good accounts of each game in a match - but it was a little confusing
when they said someone "was held to only 2 shot opportunities", yet
they got to 4 points in the game - I didn't see them mentioning any
slop points (nor would i bet they ever would). If you want to go on a
campaign, try taking some stats on how many slop points go in from
bouncing off the extra goalie men. One interesting figure would be
how many loose balls that go into the corners are funneled into the
goal by bouncing off the back of the figures?
MW
Pat Goff
> goalies"Traitors"cause of all the assists they perform for balls going
> off them and into the goal at extreme angles
Actually Paul,
Those are officialy known as "ED" shots. Please don't make me explain....
"Foospaul" <spric...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:88bab95.01112...@posting.google.com...
Kevin Skaltsis
I have played on Tornado, TS, Dynamo, Bonzini, Striker, Futbolin, Rene
Pierre, Hurricane, and Garlando. Slop occurs on all tables, and it comes in
many forms. Most Tornado players do not do banks on Tornado, and complain
about the ability to do banks. I have watched players on most of the other
tables slam banks and score without reading a defense, or having a clue what
hole they hit. I have seen many shots on the other tables that slopped in
because the ball hit one of the corner ramps in a certain way. The only way
to prevent, or limit slop is hustle. Why doesn't much slop go in on Mares
in singles? Does he reconfigure the goalie rod? No, he hustles to every
loose ball like it is match ball.
The three man goalie rod provides for a more creative offense from the
defensive area. If the Tornado table was redesigned with ramped corners,
and one man goalie rods, the goalie position would become more restricted
than it is now. The ability to pass from the goalie to the five in doubles
would be greatly reduced (see Don Swan.) Shooting with the goalie rods two
outside men in singles would not exist (see Tommy Atkinson.) As stated in
an earlier post on this thread, there may be players that attempt to get a
point from hitting the outside men on the goalie rod. I say good for them
if they can do it. I have watched Todd Loffredo put his three rod down in
singles while shooting from the back in order to deflect the ball into the
goal. If it is good enough for him it is good enough for the rest of us
mere mortals.
Bottom line...worry less about redesigning a great table to fit a mediocre
game and more about redesigning a mediocre game to fit a great table.
Respectfully,
Kevin Skaltsis
mikee <mike...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3C0700BA...@san.rr.com...
Rocky Willson
Bruce Nardoci wrote:
> Rocky,
>
> You're probably right about the stats - I was referring more to the
> design of individual manufacturers tables (e.g., 10 different
> manufacturers produce 1 man goalie tables), not the quantity of tables
> produced (e.g., 3 different manufacturers have 3 man goalie tables but
> produce more total number of tables than the other 10 combined). Despite
> this, from your list it looks like (unfortunately) the 3 man goalie
> thing is catching on.
>
> As to the merits of the 3 man goalie vs ramps (besides the various
> playing characteristics arguments like extra slop vs extra passing
> options etc.), I think they were initially developed because the corner
> ramps would sometimes break on tables.
This is correct. I heard nearly identical words from the designer himself, Ed McCloud.
He also mentioned the cost of putting in the corners as being higher on a quality table
than on a 3-man goalie quality table. Some other features that were mentioned in the same
discussion were that in a coin-op location where the tables are being played heavily, the
actual TIME it takes for the ball to roll up the ramp and down the ramp costs the operator
(and location) money, and also makes the game less exciting to the player.
When Ed designed the table, he had a number of people tell him "You can't do THAT! Nobody
will play the table." Ed told me that he knew better. If an operator could make money on
a table, he would buy it and put it in locations. If the table was in a location, people
would put money into it regardless of whether it had 11 men or 13 men on it. It turns out
he was right.
................................Rocky Willson
Moonglum
I played a couple tourneys on garlando.
I placed third in open both times with pick up partners
I am still have no idea how they figure thier tournys becouse you can
lose 1 match and up with third.
Ismial fredrico first worlds partner is here and beat me up on the
five....I still lost on meat ball thanx to my goalie and only missing
one shot....ahhh meat ball.
The locals even made a few of those ramp wall passes becouse I was
using a tornado stance. I think have picked enough to improve my
performce on the five. The ramp wall means every body has a chance at
getting the ball no matter how good your five d. The worst parts to me
are the springs,the horrible uneven ball rolls and the total
feelingless of the balls.
But on the three rod I shoot in the high 90's ...All race d's here
European front pin ...Roll over...Reg front pin ...Would not want to
shoot a middle man slide series on a real defense though becouse these
friggin steel springs stops a dead bar straight. That is you can not
even touch the ball with the outside men where you can move it to with
the middle man.
In austria the few games me and Q played made one local so Mad he put
his head through the Glass Top>>>
OK THATS MY STORY>>>NOW TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED AT THE STATES
Richard
> To all that think Tornado/Valley tables cause more slop to occur:
>
<snip excellent points>
>
> Bottom line...worry less about redesigning a great table to fit a mediocre
> game and more about redesigning a mediocre game to fit a great table.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Kevin Skaltsis
Well said.
I know players who can fairly reliably (3 out of 5) hit banks on a Tornado
from any rod.
I know players who aim for the corner men looking for the funnel effect.
I know players who aim for the goalie in singles looking to power through
with top spin.
I've occasionally shot an angle into the wall BESIDE the goal aiming to
bounce off the back of the goalie for a slop point, and I've occasionally
(in singles shooting from the back) aimed for my 3-man to redirect. I've
even aimed for banks off my opponent's goalies (and corner men) from the
3-man when I'm otherwise getting bricked.
Why do people do these things? Because they're EFFECTIVE against people who
have trouble with slop! Do you think these shots are cheap? Do you think
5-bar hacks are cheap? Why? At high levels of play so-called "cheap shots"
don't work because they're low percentage to hit and frequently blocked and
caught when they are. Lower level players often complain that "good players
don't do that!", but that's ONLY because OTHER good players will eat their
lunch if they try it too often!
So next time you're getting slopped don't point your finger across the
table, instead take a look at yourself and try to improve your ability to
block and catch those loose balls. Don't whine about your opponent taking
those low percentage "cheap shots", make them pay for it! Your game will
thank you.
Greg Pulliam
Kevin. I find myself not always agreeing with you, but in this case
you couldn't be more right. I've played on quite a few tables and
there is not a table out that gives a player control like tornado
does. Instead of blaming the men on the table, blame the man playing
on the table. If you think of things in this way you can control your
destiny .. Think about it GP
Greg Whiting
adjust and consider the fact that they have enough skill to do so.
So...take it away and leave them the long or pull-kick. If someone
repeatedly does something, assume it is on purpose and make the
adjustment. If you still feel compelled to tell yourself it is luck,
you will quickly find yourself in the loser's bracket.
I don't like slop going in my net, so I won't allow stubbornness to
get in the way of playing to take away the opposing player's
"strengths."
Make the adjustments and move on. 'Nuff said.
Boris
"GARRETT A. CRIBBS" wrote:
> Boris,
>
> Please use Rene-Pierre separately from Bonzini.
>
> I cringe when ever I see this.
>
> Alan
Sorry Alan, is this better?
>
>
> > 7 Bonzini, Rene-Pierre (metal men, cork balls)
> >
> .
I suppose there is a 1-2 point difference between the plain cork and
coated cork balls on French tables, but it was off the top of my head...
Exactly what are the differences between the two tables anyway?
Boris
>
> >
> > Boris
> >
Boris
Who are you and where are you from?
Györffi Csaba (HU)?
Taxacs Gyula (HU)?
Birringer Markus (AT)?
Sillipp Bernhard (AT)?
Or someone else? Say hello to Ismael for me.
Boris
Bruce Nardoci
Moonglum wrote:
Here are the results of the 2001 Tornado NC States that I can remember:
Open Doubles:
1st Scott Cook/Deron Bone
2nd Rick Macias/Larry Crowder
3rd Brad Altman/Tony Watkins
4th Richard Worley/Bruce Nardoci (lost to Scott and Deron on match point
AGAIN)
Open Singles:
1st Richard Worley
2nd Rick Macias
3rd Scott Cook
1500 Limited Singles:
1st/2nd Mike West/Brian Barnett (split)
Goalie Wars:
1st Richard Worley
2nd Scott Cook
3rd Jon Robertson
4th Bruce Nardoci
Forward Shootout:
1st Richard Worley
2nd Scott Cook
3rd (can't remember)
4th Bruce Nardoci
Open Mixed Doubles:
1st Michelle Triplette/Tony Watkins
2nd Mark Watson/Lisa Yates
Rookie Doubles:
1st Mark Carpenter/Jon Roberston
Rookie Singles:
1st (thought I could remember the name, but now I can't, guy from
Wilmington)
Friday DYP:
1st Randy Hicok/?
2nd Rick Macias/?
Last Chance DYP:
1st ? (I left early)
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th Bruce Nardoci/Justin Racicot (I got four 4th places - sucks)
3500:
1st Brad McWaters/Randy Hicok
2nd Mark Watson/?
Don't remember the other events.
Say hello to Ismael Saban for me if you see him again (and to Q).
Bruce
Liz Day
GO WORLEY!!!! :-)
AND YOU TOO RICK!!! ;-)
AND MICHELLE!!!:-)
Were there any women's events????
-Liz (Worley :p) Day
PS....Hope to see you ALL in KY!
Except for Randy and Justin if they are still ROOKS,hell,or even AMS for that
matter!!HAhahaha
Kevin Skaltsis
Greg Pulliam <pul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:22fb9a11.01113...@posting.google.com...
> Kevin. I find myself not always agreeing with you,
What??? I thought we always agreed!? :-)
Moonglum
Bob Babooey
I've noticed mostly in the tournaments on French style tables that
they are using what appears to be a cork ball. Do they ever use a
plastic ball in tournaments? Do the French manufacturers distribute
plastics ball also? or do the tables only come with cork and people
just put plastic balls into play on their own. I know it might seem
silly, but I'm not sure of the construction difference between the
French style and other tables that use the plastic balls only, so I'd
be curious about doing damage to a French table by using a plastic
ball on it. It would be nice to be able to use a plastic ball on the
French tables if you decided to play a fast One-touch rules game, but
I wouldnt want to damage my table to do it. Just curious.
Bobabooey
Boris <bo...@netgates.co.uk> wrote in message news:<3C086024...@netgates.co.uk>...
Bruce Nardoci
it. At the last Bonzini World Championships in 1998 in France, you could
use either cork or plastic balls (when it was your serve, you used the
ball of your choice). Since then, The "official" Bonzini tournament ball
(in both the USA and France) has been changed to cork only (although the
weight has changed several times, and I believe the ball they plan to
use for the Bonzini Worlds next year will be yellow colored cork instead
of the raw cork, to aid visibility). Cork was selected over the plastic
as the "official" Bonzini tournament ball because of the additional
playing options it affords.
Moonglum
was beating those guys when they WERE rookies... Don't think they are
scared of him just don't think they would pick him as somebody they
have to play for the money... Like this I don't consider beating Randy
or Justin a sure thing...right now I might even consider it
unlikely(Damn They got good quick)...But I would rather try them then
Chris
PS ...I knew from watching Randy improve....But did not get to tell
Justin How impressed I was at his Front Game.....
Liz
Send him on! KY tourney wouldn't be the same w/out the great NC competition!
:-)
moon...@bigfoot.com (Moonglum) wrote in message news:<7b807f.011214...@posting.google.com>...