Rene Pierre better than Tornado
Kevin Wadley
Why would anyone like the Tornado table more than a Rene Pierre?
NY Metro Foos
Kevin Wadley wrote:
>
> Why would anyone like the Tornado table more than a Rene Pierre?
Why woul anyone like the Rene Pierre more than a Tornado?
Rocky Willson
In <57ngm2$l...@battery.awod.com> Kevin Wadley <kwa...@awod.com>
writes:
>Why would anyone like the Tornado table more than a Rene Pierre?
>
reasons Mar 28th-30th, 40,000 more reasons on May 23-26, 50,000 more
July 4-7th, and 100,000 reasons more on Aug 27 through Sept 1, 1997. I
guess that is a total of 260,000 reasons to like Tornado more than a
Rene Pierre, which is about the same number as the difference of total
Tornado Players over Rene Pierre players in the U.S.
An avid Rene Pierre fan (from France) once told me that he didn't
understand why people in the U.S. preferred "table soccer and foosball"
tables to Rene Pierre.
He did not consider Rene Pierre play to be "table soccer" or
"foosball". On that point, I'll agree. :)
......................................Rocky Willson
Bruce Nardoci
Rocky Willson wrote:
> (clipped)
>
> O.K. let's compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
>
> Currently available Tornados vs. currently available Rene Pierre.
> You've already agreed in your post that the Tornado is better, so let
> me offer my experiences.
>
> Did you ever play on the the "old" style Tornados (pre 1980). I've
> heard that you could pin much better, bank much better, and control the
> ball much better on the "old" Tornados than the new ones as well, so
> Oranges to Oranges, Old Tornado vs. Old Rene Pierre, the tornado might
> still win out even in your mind.
>
Yes, I've played on the old Tornados (and old
dynamos/hurricane/challengers, etc which were fairly similar), and I
agree they had better grippability and bankability that the current
Tornados, but I would still pick and old RP over them.
> In the early 70's, there really weren't any standard tables, and we
> would play on any damn thing that had rods and men (and would be
> thankful for it). One of the dormitorys at Washington State had a Rene
> Pierre that I got a lot of time on, and could beat nearly everyone. I
> certainly wouldn't have called it a good machine--in fact nobody did.
> The rods were constantly bent and the ball refused to stay on the
> table--it kept flying off.
>
No one enjoys playing on a poorly maintained machine. I agree the balls
do have a tendancy to fly off the table, but it doesn't happen often
enough that it adversely impacts the game. You prbably got hold of an RP
that had the sidewall bar holes drilled lower than they should have
been, causing the mens feet to be closer to the surface which "scooped"
a ball up and/or put topspin on it causing it to go airborne immediately
or when it hit something - I've seen a few of those tables, but the
definitely were'nt the norm.
> The Rene Pierre was much more different from all the rest of the tables
> than any two of the thirty others were from each other. If Rene Pierre
> was so good why didn't they copy them rather than the other tables?
>
There is a much bigger difference between "french" style tables (i.e.,
metal men, telescoping rods, cork balls - e.g., RP, Bonzini, Le Grande,
etc) and "german" style tables (i.e., plastic men and balls, rods that
go through the table on both sides - e.g., Tornado, TS, Dynamo, etc)
than there is beteen 2 tables of different manufacturers of the same
type. I can play about as good on a Bonzini or Le Grande as I can on a
RP, and from what I can tell a Tornado player can play about as well
on a Dynamo etc. (with just some minor adjusting to the
(relatively) slight differences between the different tables. However,
neither type player can switch between the french/german tables
effective because of the major difference in feel/playing
characteristics (although its not as hard for a german style to adapt
to french, since you can still do all your normal german style
passes/shots, etc., which isn't true for the french to german switch).
As to why there aren't more RP type tables in the U.S., the answer has
nothing to do with which style is better and everything to do with
exposure. When Lee Peppard was first starting his big foosball tour, he
originally wanted to do it with the RP tables, but the company that
had the exclusive rights to import/distribute the tables in the U.S.
turned him down (for reasons I don't want to take up space here to
explain). After he was turned down, he explored other options and
decided to build his own table (the TS, which was based on a german
design). Once the TS tour took off, others copied that type table, and
the german type table was then what most of the U.S. was familiar with.
If anyone tried to introduce a french style table, the local players
would immediatly complaign because it was so different from what they
were use to (i.e., like what happed to the french guy in ytour area you
mentioned).
> From what I understand, when you get new Rene Pierre balls in a table,
> it is customary to light them afire to remove the white coating and
> then to dunk them in your beer to put them out. Is this true. If so,
> you are playing on a modified Rene Pierre, not a stock Rene Pierre. I
> wonder how much more grippy a Tornado ball would be if someone did
> that. :)
When RP balls are brand new, the coating on them is fairly hard and
slick. However, after they've been played on awhile they soften a little
and become grippy. It's true that in places where the table operator
didn't break the balls in (via sandpaper in a dryer or the like) before
putting new balls out, some players would burn them to remove some or
all of the slick coating. However, no serious RP player would play with
such a burnt ball since it is very inconsistent etc. Also, there is a
"yellow" RP ball that isn't slick when brand new.
>
> Yes I have played on a current Rene Pierre as well. I have to agree
> that there are a number of things that I could do on the Rene Pierre
> that I couldn't imagine doing on the Tornado.
>
> (1) By simply pinning the ball and turning the rod, I could rotate the
> man around the rod. I have never been able to do this on a Tornado
> table that wasn't broken.
>
They man wasn't properly tightened - it isn't supposed to turn. Loose
men are also not a very common occurance (certainly not anymore than
loose handles/broken men pins are on Tornado). Actually, the fact that
the men "squeeze" onto the bars is one of the benefits of RP tables -
you don't have to stock/buy replacement 2-bars, 3-bars, 5-bars, etc, you
just stock "bars" and put the appropriate number of men in
the appropriate places when you need to replace a bar.
> (2) I could have to service the things because of constant ball jams.
> A local tavern owner that had both a Rene and a Dynamo ('80's model)
> said that the downtime on the Rene was astronomical compared to the
> Dynamo, and by operating Dynamo's and Tornados, I know that the
> incidence of repair for the Dynamos is none to good compared to a
> Tornado.
Having never been an operator, I'm not qualified to make a comparison.
However, I will note that we are currently holding our turnaments on RP
tables that are over 20 years old (including some parts that haven't had
replacement parts available for many years), so they can't be too bad.
>
> (3) I could pay a much higher price for the Rene than I would consider
> paying for a Tornado. Aren't the Rene's about $1700 or so new? Plus
> every location where I replaced Rene's, the owners said that it was
> obvious to the naked eye that the Tornado was a better built machine.
>
I think new RP's cost about $1,300 (the $1,700 price is for a 6-player
version). The price includes shipping from france, as opposed to from
the U.S. like for Tornados. However, I do agree that those prices are
too high. The Tornado does look to the naked eye like a better built
table (especially until recent years when RP improved the cabinet to
where it wasn't as shakey). However, this is mostly as aesthetic, not
engineering conclusion.
> (4) I could have bent bars that would be totally unstraightenable, and
> were vastly more expensive to replace than the Tornado.
>
As I noted before, we are playing on 25 year old tables which have the
old style (larger diameter) bars that haven't been available for over 10
years. The old style bars can be straightened, although I'm sure bars on
both types of table can get bent beyond repair.
> (5) I couldn't imagine trying to hit the ball off the Tornado table
> and EVERY TIME being able to do so. I can't do it on the Tornado, I've
> tried, I can on the Rene Pierre. Well, maybe one out of five it will
> jump right up and bounce right back on the table, I guess I've got to
> be honest here.
I've already addressed the ball flying off the table problem. I will
note that being able to deliberately do it when you want has lead to the
development of some "air ball" shots (from any bar including the 3 bar)
on RP that aren't possible on a Tornado (except for the Tornado goalie
rod shot). However, I'm not that big of a fan of the light cork balls
that I'd mind changing to a heavier ball to keep it from going airborne
as much, as long as it was still grippy.
> Unfortunately, when I try to shoot a bank on the Rene, this
> happens, too. Actually, I think that I really haven't tried a bank on
> the new Rene's, when the man started turning on the rod, I pretty much
> decided to give up trying it out.
>
> I may be missing something here. It sounds like you can bank with
> accuracy on the Rene's? If my memory serves me correctly, the ball
> would either stub or fly off the table in the 70's.
>
The man turning was not a normal situation, as I mentioned above. yes
you can bank with accuracy on the RP (from any bar, and not just by
chopping on the ball like yu have to do on german style tables). In
fact, I can do better banks with my LEFT hand (off either wall from any
man on the table) than anyone can do with either hand from any man on
a Tornado.
> I haven't been able to make a nice pull stroke on the Rene's,
> either. The ball always seems to stub.
>
That's just a matter of not pulling the ball back as far behind the
bar on your stroke as you do on a Tornado - people can and do shoot pull
shots on an RP (although I'll agree it is harder to do than on a german
style table - but its somewhat similar to a browntop TS, you
couldn't pull the ball as far back on that either). However, that same
stubbing problem is a reflection of the grippiness that allows so many
other types of shots to be done on RP than is possible on Tornado - a
good trade-off don't you think?
> In summary, I have never had anyone up here say that Rene's were
> better than the Tornados except for Alfie Cervano, a French guy that
> tried to operate Rene tables in the Seattle area. He lasted about 6
> months if that.
> Virtually all the players that played on both say that the Tornado
> is superior.
>
Again, that is only a reflection of which style table (french or german)
they were used to - its not easy to switch (I mentioned in a previous
post that when I was forced to switch from german to french style tables
I quit playing completely for 6 months because I hated the RPs so much).
If you had a chance to see how very good RP players play the game, I
thnk you'd appreciate the more complex style.
> Would I play on a Rene' if Tornados weren't around, well, probably,
> but as long as Tornados are around, you won't see me playing too many
> games on the Rene', even if there were any left around here to play on.
>
> I guess this is one of those issues where we will have to agree to
> disagree on.
>
> .................................Rocky Willson
>
One final thought - for many years I've had to play players on Tornado
etc type tables, and mostly lost due to the inability to use all my
skills. If ANY german style player thinks they can beat me on a RP
table, I'm ready for the challenge - name your price :).
>
David Acton
Does anyone know of where I can buy a rene pierre table. They were
very popular back in the mid 70's in my home town (Columbia S.C.).
I've never even seen a rene pierre outside of S.C. although I heard
they could be found at Virginia Beach Va. Anyway if anybody knows I
would appreciate it. Thanks
Rocky Willson
In <32A757...@worldnet.att.net> Bruce Nardoci
<foot...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
(12k of reply clipped)
A very fine reply. Very honest in your response and a very
informative, as opposed to argumentative reply.
I guess that some of us play on Tornados, and some of us play on
Rene's. We're all playing on virtually the same game. Too bad a table
can't be built with the great playing characteristics for the player,
and durability for the operator. I don't think such a table is
possible. (seed for another thread?)
When I started playing on Tornado's, I didn't care for them at all.
Same for Rene Pierre. I had to continue to play on Tornado's and now I
like them. I'm sure the same would be true for Rene.
Anyway, I seldom have had such a fine reply to any of my "devils
advocate" posts.
Thanks again for your reply.
.................................Rocky Willson
Bruce Nardoci
Contact Brady Distributing in Charlotte, N.C. - they have exclusive U.S.
rights to sell RPs. Phone information (704) 555-1212 should have their
phone number and address...