Ian Thorpe and the "Loping" Stroke
RunnSwim
1. I included Thorpe's stroke count (29 per 50 meters) because this objectively
shows that he has a "long" stroke. He also (without controversy) is well known
to have a prodigiously effective kick. This is simply another bit of evidence
supporting my opinion that stroke length is significantly associated with
kicking effectiveness.
2. You have missed the previous discussions we have had from time to time on
the "loping" stroke (which is the third major type of stroke swum by elite
swimmers, the others being kayak and what I have termed "hitch" (again, I am
certainly open to a better name, should you or someone else wish to propose a
name for a stroke in which there is full elbow extension and a notable glide on
the fully extended elbow)).
There are many elite male swimmers who swim with a "loping" stroke. Evans was
the most prominent female to use such a stroke. Two Americans who have rather
marked loping strokes are Chad Carvin and Aram Kevorkian (who finalled in the
1500 in Indianapolis). But there are lots of these guys around. Popov has (or
used to have in '96; I haven't seen him swim recently) a subtle, but definite
lope, and Thorpe has a marked lope.
The principle behind the lope is this: All swimmers have assymetrical strength
and apply assymetrical forces (this is clearly described in Maglischo's book).
The loper "leans" on the weak side arm (usually the left, but Carvin, who is
left handed, leans on the right). This leaning effect is set up when the head
turns (more markedly than usual) to the strong side to breathe. As the head
and trunk rotate back toward the neutral position, the potential energy (from
the side turn out of the water) is converted to kinetic energy which assists
the catch and pull on the weak side. The more the head is raised to the strong
side, the more prominent the lope. In an extreme case (e.g. Thorpe and Evans)
the swimmer actually looks forward and raises the head out of the water (Evans
used to clear her chin from the water while still looking forward), before
turning it to the side. This will not cause the butt and thighs to sink,
provided (a) there is a strong kick (e.g. Thorpe) or the swimmer maintains a
marked lumbar lordosis (e.g. Evans and Weismueller - the latter of whom is
credited with inventing the technique of "arching," which is the alternative
way to maintain front/back balance, compared to "hiding the head" and "pressing
the T.").
Of interest, lopers often tend to kayak on one side and hitch on the other
side. In this case, you will see a notable acceleration of kicking effort on
the hitching side and a notable reduction in kicking effort on the kayaking
side. This is most marked in the case of Kevorkian of anyone I have ever seen;
but it is also prominent in Carvin. Watch him in Sydney and you will see what
I mean.
Do any coaches teach this technique at present? I doubt it, because I've never
met a coach who truly understood what was happening in the technique. I did
once receive a nice thank-you e-mail from a former NCAA Division I coach of the
year for explaining the technique.
I think that the technique could be taught to some swimmers who might benefit
from it. Best candidates would have very marked strength assymetry. This
assymetry is bad, because the swimmer will tend to swim in a circle in the
ocean without visual ques (just like rowing a boat with one arm stronger than
the other). In order to swim straight, the swimmer must either (1) constantly
re-aim (which causes drag) or (2) attenuate the strong side (which is obviously
not as good as strengthening the weak side, which is what the arm lean does).
- Larry Weisenthal
In article <39AF0E5A...@epix.net>, "Kevin T. Millerick" <kev...@epix.net>
writes:
>RunnSwim wrote:
>
>>
>> Thorpe is, in my opinion, FQS (29 strokes per 50) in large measure because
>he
>> has one of the best kicks in swimming (aided by his size 17 zoomers).
>Other
>> swimmers are said to dread swimming next to him because of the turbulence
>from
>> his kick.
>
>Why did you include stroke count above?
>
>> We've discussed Thorpe's head motion before (Popov does it a little bit
>too;
>> Janet Evans did it huge). Far from being a detriment, this is a key
>component
>> of the loping stroke, in which the head movement assists the body in
>leaning on
>> the weak side arm,
>
>How does lifting the head straight up (looking at the end of the pool)
>assist the body to lean on the weak side arm?
>
>
>> to balance out the stroke.
>
>Isn't the "loping stroke" unbalanced by definition?
>
>
>
>> The nuances of the loping stroke
>> have been discussed here in detail previously. Particularly when combined
>with
>> a strong kick, the head lift does not result in front to back imbalance,
>which
>> is yet another advantage provided by a strong kick.
>
>Is this your opinion or is there some conventional or at least
>prevailing wisdom for us to draw upon? Actually, the head lift does
>cause imbalance. The kick is used to overcome or compensate for that
>imbalance. Can you cite one reputable swim coach who purposely teaches
>their swimmers to lift the head straight up & out of the water as Thorpe
>does in the slo-mo video?
ASteger78
I know that I told you that I wasn't going to be posting on the newsgroup but I
feel that you might be accidentally misleading people about some of the "facts"
that you are giving. Please excuse the length of this post.
First, you talk about how the "hitch" stroke puts you in the same position as
the Neer's Test used by orthopedics. This is untrue. Your correct that the
arm is straight and above the head when performing the test but the part that
causes a positive sign (ie. pain) is when you "push" the arm passed the midline
of the body. This is how you correctly perform Neer's test and it is described
and shown in the major Orthopedic and Athletic Training books that are used by
professionals. Therefore, your statement that the "hitch" stroke puts the arm
in the Neer's test is incorrect.
Most impingement problems occur due to poor posture, weak shoulders, and
overuse. The arch in the clavicle where the supraspinatus and biceps tendon go
through is made smaller by having the shoulders moved forward. Most people,
especially swimmers, have their head and shoulders in a forward position that
puts bones, muscles, nerves, etc. out of their proper positioning. If you have
correct posture you would be able to draw a straight line that starts at the
ears, goes through the middle of the shoulder, hips, then knees, and ankle but
most people can't do this. An easy way to tell how well or poor your posture
is is to stand against a wall and the back of your head and shoulders should be
flat against the wall. Most people are far from this. To strengthen your
shoulders you should perform most of the exercises that Larry had listed before
but something that doctors, Athletic Trainers, and most PTs don't look for is
the positioning of the scapulas (ie. shoulder blades). It is the scap's that
ultimately control the positioning of the shoulders. To bring the scap's back
into there correct position you should strengthen the rhomboids (muscle that is
attached to the scap and spine) and this can be done by performing seated rows
and reverse flys. When doing this exercise though, make sure you are squeezing
the scap's together. Overuse is a problem in all overhead sports (baseball,
volleyball, etc.) and as long as there are coaches out there that think that
everyone can do the exact same thing as far as usage and technique, then this
will always be a problem. Clubs that do high levels of yardage simply have to
know their swimmers ability level because while some people can only do 70,000
yds per week before they start having overuse problems, others can get up to
110,000 yds per week with no problems at all. Everyone's different so you
can't lump everyone into one group when it comes to the workload and with
saying a long stroke will cause problems with most swimmers.
Now going onto Thorpe. Since I have a tape of '99 Pan Pacs I know how many
strokes Thorpe took during his 400FR and what he was doing at that time. The
29 strokes per lap were done on his 3rd lap before he started really started
his legs. On his 7th lap he took 31 strokes per lap when he really got his
legs moving. That tells me that a strong kick doesn't mean a decrease in stroke
length like it was suggested. His technique did not change later in the race
and he wasn't falling apart at that time encase anyone wants to think this.
Having said this, the reason (my thinking, not fact) is that the increase in
tempo caused him to take more strokes which definitely didn't hurt his
performance since he split 1:51.0 the first 200 and 1:50.8 the second 200.
Also, it has been noted that Thorpe's kick (4 kicks per cycle) is actually
performed to counter-balance each arm entry and exit (noted on the Swimming
Science Journal) so as his tempo increases, his kick must increase as well.
The counter-balancing maintains a correct body position while swimming so he
stays as streamlined as possible.
Also, I'm wondering why you think that Thorpe is a "loper" when he spends
almost an equal amount of time (tenth of a second difference) on each arm and
his kick doesn't change in intensity during a cycle. Here's what you said most
"lopers" do. "lopers often tend to kayak on one side and hitch on the other
side. In this case, you will see a notable acceleration of kicking effort on
the hitching side and a notable reduction in kicking effort on the kayaking
side. This is most marked in the case of Kevorkian of anyone I have ever seen;
but it is also prominent in Carvin." This doesn't describe Thorpe's stroke at
all and he definitely doesn't swim like Carvin. If you could elaborate on why
you think this it would be appreciated.
Next, you mentioned in your article in Swimming Technique that the high elbow
position desired by coaches could cause damage to the shoulder and, if I
remember correctly and I could be wrong, you talked about on the newsgroup with
going for depth early is more favorable. With the high elbow position, the
elbow is shifted out to the side involuntarily once the stroke is started so a
straight pull with the palm of the hand pointing backwards can be achieved like
with Thorpe, Hackett, Bennett, etc. With the arm in this position, the swimmer
has more strength then they would if they went for depth. When you say going
for depth, I think of someone pulling with almost a straight arm like Josh
Davis showed at the '99 Pan Pacs in the 200FR. If you don't believe me try
pushing yourself up from your chair using your desk to push on. Do it first
with your elbows bent like in the high elbow position then try doing it with an
almost straight arm. Its easy to tell the difference and if you were to do
this over and over again you will most certainly get shoulder problems with the
almost straight arm then you would with keeping your elbows bent. It is my
belief that this is the same with swimming since your hand is "resisting"
against the water.
Finally, the head lift associated with "loping" that you desire inhibits the
swimmers. Here's why. When you lift your head up your hips will sink thus
taking the swimmer out of their streamlined position or they are arching their
back and then wasting energy by trying to stay streamlined. Both results are
undesirable to all swimmers. Also, when most swimmers lift their head up their
stroke slows slightly thus giving the effect that they are causing more
momentum when bringing their loping arm forward. If you can disprove this with
facts or by examples like I did with the difference in pulling, please do so
because this is the way I view it and probably others as well.
Alex Steger
Head Coach, HEAT Swimming (St. Louis)
Student-Athletic Trainer, UM-St. Louis
RunnSwim
(ASteger78) writes:
>
>I know that I told you that I wasn't going to be posting on the newsgroup but
>I
>feel that you might be accidentally misleading people about some of the
>"facts"
>that you are giving. Please excuse the length of this post.
>
Thanks for the thoughtful post. As I told you privately, I was (with your
permission) going to post your e-mail and discuss it (with attribution) as part
of this general thread.
I just got back to work after a two day absence to sail my engineless boat down
from Long Beach to San Diego for repairs, and I've got day job work to do; but
I'll get back in a day or so.
Just a quick note regarding the Neer test: The postion of the "hitch" stroke is
precisely the way the Neer test is depicted in several recent
orthopedic/sportsmedicine publications (out of academic interest, I'm ordering
a full text copy of Neer's original 1972 paper explaining the test). It is
true that the impingement stresses continue to increase as the arm is pushed
beyond 180 degrees. In subtle/subclinical cases of impingement, this is what
the examiner must do to elicit pain. But lots of people with impingement
problems perceive pain well before 180 degrees, also. Actually, the first
person to point out to me that the "hitch" position recapitulated the Neer Test
was an orthopedic surgeon who was the former head team physician to USA
Swimming's National teams.
And, as pointed out in the Jan, 2000 article by Yanai and Hay, there is a
tendency of the moving water to force the forward flexed arm upward; in point
of fact, many people who use this technique have their hands right up at or
near the surface of the water, which is beyond 180 degrees if one is on one's
side. I've previously written about all of the above in discussing how the
"long forward" recapitulates the Neer test.
More later. Thanks again for the excellent response, which fully merits the
length.
- Larry Weisenthal
RunnSwim
>First, you talk about how the "hitch" stroke puts you in the same position as
>the Neer's Test used by orthopedics. This is untrue. <snip> Therefore, your
statement that the "hitch" stroke puts the arm in the Neer's test is
incorrect.<<
ANSWER: This was answered in a previous posting. I stand by my previous
representations.
>>Most impingement problems occur due to poor posture, weak shoulders, and
overuse. <<
ANSWER: This was refuted by the study of Yanai and Hay (quoted several times
previously) who showed that impingement was closely related to stroke
technique. Most important in the study of these authors was the finding that
impingement is not inevitable; it is optional. It is possible to swim with
techniques (discussed previously) which drastically minimize impingement, to
the great advantage of the swimmer. The sooner that swim coaches move beyond
fatalism/nihilism and realize that they have it within their power to
dramatically reduce the incidence and severity of shoulder injury through
scientifically-based stroke modifications to (1) preserve performance and (2)
reduce stress, the sooner we will begin to see a dramatic fall in the incidence
of shoulder injury in the sport. Adult stroke clinics should recognize this as
well, and make education about the technical and anatomical factors which
predispose to injury job #1.
>>The arch in the clavicle where the supraspinatus and biceps tendon go
through is made smaller by having the shoulders moved forward. Most people,
especially swimmers, have their head and shoulders in a forward position that
puts bones, muscles, nerves, etc. out of their proper positioning.<<
ANSWER: The supraspinatus doesn't go through the arch in the clavicle.
Rather, it goes under the acromion (part of the scapula) during the long
forward reach and it goes under the coracoacromial ligament during the pull
through, when the arm is perpendicular to the long axis of the body and the
hand/forearm are in a position of internal rotation. Tendinosis of the biceps
tendon can indeed be painful, but it is not the big problem which leads to the
most loss of training time and it rarely, if ever, leads to the loss of a
career. The Achilles heel of swimming is the supraspinatus, followed probably
by the glenoid labrum.
With regard to posture, try this. Take off your shirt. Arms to the sides.
Square back your shoulders. Look at your (upper) arms. Look at your
antecubital fossa (front side of your elbow, where they draw your blood). Look
at your thumbs. Upper arms should be right next to your body (maximally
adducted). Antecubital fossae should be facing straight forward. Thumbs
should be more or less straight forward.
Now, let your shoulders slouch well forward. Arms move away from your body (to
a postition of relative, albeit slight, abduction. Antecubital fossae rotate
inward (indicating internal rotation). Thumbs rotate way inward (medially) -
again indicating internal rotation. It is this combination of internal
rotation and abduction which increases impingement with slouched shoulders.
However, the relationship of this to impingement in swimming is tenuous, at
best.
What the exercises do (in addition to getting your shoulders back where they
belong, which is desirable, quite apart from whatever effect this may or may
not have on impingement and swimming shoulder injury) is to strengthen the
dynamic stabilizers of the head of the humerus, namely the rotator cuff
muscles. Remember that there are three major anatomic factors which determine
susceptibility to shoulder injury (how much abuse the shoulders can take from
improper stroke technique): (1) Bone anatomy (is the acromion longer than
usual? is it downsloping?). (2) Tightness vs. laxity of passive stabilizers
(ligaments of joint capsule holding head of humerus in the glenoid (indentation
in the scapula which serves as a miserable excuse for a socket). (3) Tone and
strength of the active stabilizers (rotator cuff muscles). The exercises help
#3. Dangerous exercises (such as tossing medicine balls) can exacerbate #2.
>>Clubs that do high levels of yardage simply have to
know their swimmers ability level because while some people can only do 70,000
yds per week before they start having overuse problems, others can get up to
110,000 yds per week with no problems at all. Everyone's different so you
can't lump everyone into one group when it comes to the workload and with
saying a long stroke will cause problems with most swimmers.<<
ANSWER: "Overuse" in this context just means cumulative damage from
impingement, which weakens and then destroys collagen fibers in the rotator
cuff tendon. Two ways to treat this are to swim with technique which causes
impingement, but keep the mileage low or to swim with technique to minimize
impingement, and be able to train more miles without injury. Also, I never,
never, never said that "a long stroke will cause problems with most swimmers."
I said that a long stroke will increase the risk of injury with long term
exposure. I stand by this general statement, with the caveats that also of
importance are (1) anatomy and strength/tone of dynamic stabilizing rotator
cuff and (2) other features of stroke technique, such as internal rotation,
degree of pull through (wherein a long push back to finish the stroke will
predispose to wring out of arteriole supplying supraspinatus tendon, to crimp
off blood supply during stroke and make the problem worse), and whether or not
the forearm gets to the critical "60/60" position (sixty degrees of forward
flexion, combined with 60 degrees of abduction, combined with internal
rotation, which is a position which can be achieved during pull through and
which is particularly bad).
>>Now going onto Thorpe. Since I have a tape of '99 Pan Pacs I know how many
strokes Thorpe took during his 400FR and what he was doing at that time. The
29 strokes per lap were done on his 3rd lap before he started really started
his legs. On his 7th lap he took 31 strokes per lap when he really got his
legs moving. That tells me that a strong kick doesn't mean a decrease in stroke
length like it was suggested. His technique did not change later in the race
and he wasn't falling apart at that time encase anyone wants to think this.<<
ANSWER: I won't take your time going through the minutiae of this argument,
but my hypothesis is that effective kicking conserves momentum, allowing for
less frequent (ergo longer) stroking. I have been studying the relationship
between subjectively graded kicking effectiveness and stroke length for well
over a year, at many swim meets, including 7 full days of US Olympic Trials. I
think that the statistical relationship between kicking and stroke length is
unassailable. The conservation of momentum hypothesis also is consistent with
the ICAR data correlating stroke length with performance and the fact that the
fastest performers actually apply lesser upper body forces than less skilled
swimmers. To make it completely simple and objective, one need only to compare
two beat kickers/leg draggers (as a class) with 4 beat kickers (as a class).
The difference in stroke length is obvious. But I think that, among 4 beat
kickers, the skilled eye can also discern a relationship between kicking
effectiveness and stroke length.
There are obviously other determinants to stroke length as well. And Thorpe,
who "negative splits," increases his stroke rate (decreases stroke length) as
the race progresses, even as the kicking effort appears to increase. Likewise,
Gary Hall has a higher stroke count (and ostensibly stronger kicking) in the 50
than in the 100. But I'm talking about the relationship between kicking and
stroke length mid-race, comparing different swimmers. I don't think that
swimmers can handle maximum kicking and maximum stroking for a prolonged
period. The fastest way to swim is with both maximum, "kayak-type" stroking
and maximum kicking (as in a 50 or in the last lap of a race). There was
actually a published study on this by a Japanese research group, if memory
serves. Mid-race in a 200 or 400 will show the most efficient mix of stroking
and kicking, and it is here where the relationship between kicking and stroke
length is most obvious.
I've also observed the following drill, pool-side, during workouts.
Accomplished swimmers sprint 50 meters, long course. First 25 is full stroke,
last 25 is kick only. Goal of the drill is to slow down the least. It is
remarkable how little the best swimmers slow down when they stop arm stroking
and continue on kick only. This is analogous, I think, to the relatively small
force it requires to maintain momentum when pushing a child on a swing. Once
full amplitude has been achieved, it takes only a gentle push to maintain this,
relative to the effort it takes to achieve full amplitude. Another example are
kids on those annoying little scooters (or skate boards). Lots of work to get
up to speed; little work to maintain speed.
So, once up to speed, the forces generated by an accomplished kicker may
certainly contribute to the conservation of momentum, which, in turn, will
provide significant assistance to the upper body forces (by minimizing the need
for energy-depleting re-acceleration after decceleration), quite in addition to
beneficial effects vis a vis balance.
I must also presume that Ian's size 17 feet have a lot to do with his low
stroke count (29 strokes per 50 meters) and prodigious performance. When I put
on short fins (inflexible red zoomers, which do not improve the kicking angle
but only add area to my foot surface), both my stroke length and performance
increase notably. Same thing - only more so - with more accomplished swimmers.
But awaiting Alex's research report on this to see if he agrees.
>>Also, it has been noted that Thorpe's kick (4 kicks per cycle) is actually
performed to counter-balance each arm entry and exit (noted on the Swimming
Science Journal) so as his tempo increases, his kick must increase as well. <<
ANSWER: This statement "is actually performed to counter balance each arm
entry" answers Alex's own question. Of course a swimmer who is not kicking
randomly and haphazardly will increase both amplitude and frequency (speed) of
kick as stroke rate increases (as during the last lap of the race or whenever
the tempo increases). The exception to this are swimmers such a Chris Thompson
and other distance swimmers, whose kicks may come and go with the ebb and flow
of a race (in other words, they turn their kicks off at some times). Thorpe, I
think, maintains his 4 beat throughout the race (I don't have any tapes of
Thorpe. I am relying on memory from a brief segment at Pan Pacs more than a
year ago and from stills on Dr. Rushall's web site). So it speeds up when he
ups his tempo. Possibly the amplitude (vertical component) of his kick
diminishes as the kicking rate increases. So the actual power of the kick may
be difficult to judge. And, at any rate, he is not attempting to conserve
energy and swim with maximum efficiency in the late stages of the race (as in
the early stages). And the absolute changes in stroke counts which you quoted
to me were rather modest (29 strokes mid race vs 31 strokes late race, when he
is intentionally reducing his glide and increasing his tempo); as I wrote to
you privately, it is quite plausible that, absent the increased kick, the fall
off in stroke distance would be even more. But the point is to compare apples
to apples and not apples to oranges (i.e. mid race stroke length of a good
kicker versus mid race stroke length of a poor kicker).
In point of fact, Rushall himself (in his latest discussion of Ian Thorpe's
stroke) notes that Thorpe's stroking technique changes within the confines of a
single 200 meter race. He notes that Thorpe's "left arm ceases its "elbow-up"
position (at 170 meters, relative to at 30 meters into the race) and moves the
upper arm much earlier than in the previous sequence at 30 m." Rushall
attributes this change to fatique, thus calling into question your statement
that "His technique did not change later in the race and he wasn't falling
apart at that time in case anyone wants to think this."
<nb. My wife just called and wants me home for dinner. This is a natural
break point, in any event. I'll get to the rest of Alex's analysis and address
Kevin's questions as well in the next installment.>
- Larry Weisenthal
ASteger78
This reply will only cover a few things because I have quite a bit of work do
get down before going to the ASCA Convention tomorrow. Once I get back in town
I'll get back with you.
First, the error with the supraspinatus. That's what I get for not being
careful and rereading my post before sending it. Plus, this was a no brainer
since I just had this repaired back in April. Oh well, that taught me a
lesson.
Anyway, with the Neer's test if you get a positive test from raising your hand
directly above your shoulder, in and out of the water, then that person is
usually beyond the normal pain associated with impingement. This is the
opinion of probably most ATCs and ortho's that I have personally talked to.
Having said this, I can see how you think that the long forward stroke puts you
in the Neer's test but going on what is written in books about the test and
from what the "specialists" say as well, I would still have to disagree. Just
a difference of opinion on the subject.
As far as rehab goes with impingement I still disagree with you quite a bit.
One reason is because the coaches that we have at the university, no swimming
unfortunately, tend to be quite a bit on the crazy side with their training so
we have to deal with shoulder injuries a lot. Also, I was at the National
Athletic Training Association (NATA) Convention back in June and there were
quite a few talks about shoulder injuries, especially impingement. Out of all
the talks given about the shoulder, which were quite a few, I only missed 1 of
them. At every talk though they all talked about how you have to work on the
positioning of the scapula when rehabing the shoulder. This is because the
scapula controls the positioning of the humerus in the glenohumeral joint. So
in other words just working the joint stabilizers won't do the job. This is
what the top ATC's and ortho's were saying at the convention that deal with
this every day so I would have to say that they know what they're saying.
Also, the way I described the posture is how we check for posture in the
training room because it seems to be the simplest and easiest way to show
people that they have poor posture. This was something else they talked about
as well during these discussions at the NATA Convention.
Now back to the swimming. Concerning the zoomers, we use black fins and then
cut them so they resemble a zoomer because zoomers tend to actually be too
stiff for the foot and ankle in my point of view and its also a lot cheaper to
just by the normal black fins for $20 and then cutting them instead of paying
$35 for zoomers. Now when comparing your foot to a cut fin, the top of your
foot is rounded so water slides right off of it and fins are much flatter and
have that really nice lip on the side of it which works extremely well with
kicking since it is able to hold onto the water. Also, the toes are not
together and are easily moved but the cut fin is a single surface area that is
not easily moved. With the bottom part of the feet, the flatness of the foot
some what resembles the cut fin but again, it doesn't have that lip on the side
of it. Therefore, having said all this, if someone is not kicking better and
swimming faster when using fins, cut or uncut, then that person is having a
serious problem. I of course don't have any research to back this up but I'd
like to see some that goes against it.
Finally, concerning Thorpe. I was talking about what he had done at Pan Pacs
concerning his stroke count and technique. I was not talking about Rushall's
latest discussion about Thorpe which was about his swim at Trials. Two
different races and thus, two different discussions. Let's stick to the same
meet and race since things can change race to race and meet to meet. Also,
here is the paragraph that I took the original statement from. "Ian Thorpe's
stroke demonstrates a four-beat kick for each arm pull. Because of the length
of time that an arm is underwater, time is available to perform that number of
kicks. A kick is performed to counter-balance each arm entry and exit." Now,
when I read this it tells me that his kick is most there to help maintain his
balance and stay as streamlined as possible in the water since it doesn't talk
about propulsion in this breakdown of his race or any other race on the SSJ
that I know of. Between Rushall's knowledge and contact all over the world,
especially Australia when talking about Thorpe, I would have go with his
thinking. Again, just another difference of opinion on a subject.
Anyway, its nice to have a civilized discussion on the newsgroup without
attacking each other since it seems that's the only way to carry on a
discussion on this newsgroup. I look forward to hearing back from you and if
you would like, you can email me as well to make sure that I get your replies.
Alex Steger
RunnSwim
>Also, I'm wondering why you think that Thorpe is a "loper" when he spends
>almost an equal amount of time (tenth of a second difference) on each arm and
>his kick doesn't change in intensity during a cycle. Here's what you said
>most "lopers" do. "lopers often tend to kayak on one side and hitch on the
other
>side. In this case, you will see a notable acceleration of kicking effort on
>the hitching side and a notable reduction in kicking effort on the kayaking
>side. This is most marked in the case of Kevorkian of anyone I have ever
>seen; but it is also prominent in Carvin." This doesn't describe Thorpe's
stroke
>at all and he definitely doesn't swim like Carvin. If you could elaborate on
>why you think this it would be appreciated.
>
ANSWER: In my opinion, there are three major types of stroke styles in elite
swimmers: kayaking, hitching, loping. The lope stroke is distinguished by
assymetry. This assymetry results from some motion by the body to add greater
body forces to assist the weak side arm than the body does to assist the strong
side arm. The reason why this is beneficial can be seen by reading in
Maglischo's book how all swimmers have assymetric force vectors, comparing one
side with the other. Maglischo states that all swimmers would benefit were
they able to increase the weak side forces to balance out the strong side
forces. This is what loping accomplishes.
There are, however, different "flavors" of loping, just as there are different
"flavors" of kayaking and hitching. Thorpe and Evans use a very pronounced
head lift to assist in applying forces to the weak side arm. Front to back
balance in Thorpe's case is maintained by his uniquely powerful kick and in
Evans' case by a prominent lumbar lordosis which kept her body perfectly flat
in the water (front to back), despite a rather weak kick and very prominent
head lift.
nb: at this point I would caution everyone to consider the following before
claiming that the head lift is a flaw and not an advantage: What are the most
impressive records in men's and women's freestyle swimming? I'd say Thorpe's
400 and 200 and Evans' 800 and 400. So, like bumblebees, these two perhaps
shouldn't fly; yet they clearly do.
Now, in the case of Carvin and Kevorkian (who are rather pronounced examples of
a different "flavor" of loping), these latter swimmers appear to set up their
lope with an accentuated kick on the fully extended weak side arm, and with a
less prominent head motion. These swimmers then breathe to the strong side and
then get their upper bodies into their stroke more on the weak side than on the
strong side. In 1996 in Atlanta, Popov also appeared to swim this way, but in
a more subtle fashion (Rowdy Gaines' commentary during the final of the 50 was
that "when Popov gets his kick going, he just keeps rolling, and rolling, and
rolling." This is what the loper looks like...he is rolling and rolling and
rolling).
So I didn't say nor did I mean to imply that Thorpe looks like Carvin when he
swims. However, I think that he's swimming with a prominent lope, as defined
above; albeit of a different flavor than Carvin's.
>Next, you mentioned in your article in Swimming Technique that the high elbow
>position desired by coaches could cause damage to the shoulder and, if I
>remember correctly and I could be wrong, you talked about on the newsgroup
>with going for depth early is more favorable. With the high elbow position,
the
>elbow is shifted out to the side involuntarily once the stroke is started so
>a straight pull with the palm of the hand pointing backwards can be achieved
>like with Thorpe, Hackett, Bennett, etc. With the arm in this position, the
>swimmer has more strength then they would if they went for depth. When you
say going for depth, I think of someone pulling with almost a straight arm like
Josh
>Davis showed at the '99 Pan Pacs in the 200FR. If you don't believe me try
>pushing yourself up from your chair using your desk to push on. Do it first
>with your elbows bent like in the high elbow position then try doing it with
>an almost straight arm. Its easy to tell the difference and if you were to do
>this over and over again you will most certainly get shoulder problems with
>the almost straight arm then you would with keeping your elbows bent. It is
my
>belief that this is the same with swimming since your hand is "resisting"
>against the water.
Before discussing the above and also talking more about the head lift, I'd like
everyone to read the abstract below. This is from an article which I first
read in 1982, when my father developed serious shoulder problems for the first
time. (he was 68 at the time). At this time, I had only recently resumed
regular swimming after almost a 15 year hiatus, during which time I got
educated and began my career. It was this paper that first got me thinking
about how swimming technique is related to shoulder injury:
>>
Can J Appl Sport Sci 1980 Sep;5(3):195-202
The prevention and treatment of swimmer's
shoulder.
Penny JN, Smith C
Specific stroke modifications may be of great
advantage to reduce shoulder pain in front crawl
swimmers. Shortening the stroke by starting arm
recovery before the end of the push-through
reduces "wringing-out" of the supraspinatus
tendon. Lifting the head at arm entry, leading
reovery with the hand and encouraging body roll,
and alternate breathing all reduce impingement of
the tendon against the coraco-acromial arch.
Specific stretching exercises, with neuromuscular
facilitatory techniques, have an important
preventative value. Proper sleeping posture is to
be encouraged, using pillows to support the arm
and reduce direct pressure over the supraspinatus
tendon. Physical modalities and medication have a
very limited role to play. Surgical decompression
of the coracoacromial arch may be curative in
those cases not responding to conservative
management.
<<
CONTINUING MY ANSWER: The full text of this paper made the following points:
Head lift at entry serves to reduce the forward angle of the leading arm (nb.
thus avoiding the Neer impingement test). The hand lead (i.e. straight arm
type) recovery also reduces impingement (nb. by reducing internal rotation).
The authors also specifically advocate leaning on the arm opposite the
breathing side and an early exit, to avoid supraspinatus arteriole wring out.
Now, the high elbow recovery is potentially bad because it tends to force the
arm into internal (medial) rotation at 90 degrees of elevation relative to the
trunk. This recapitulates another orthopedic impingement position called the
Hawkins' Test. In this position, the supraspinatus tendon is squeezed against
the coracoacromial ligament.
On the other hand, I think that it's possible to have one's cake and eat it
too, high elbow recovery-wise. If one immediately one feathers one's hand to a
position of lateral rotation (thumb forward of pinky) upon exit from the water
at the start of recovery and keeps the thumb ahead of the pinky during recovery
and at entry, impingement stress will be greatly reduced. This supposition was
confirmed objectively in the landmark study of Yanai and Hay published in
January of this year. 40% of impingement occurs during recovery and recovery is
non-propulsive, so there would seem no reason not to teach this method to all
swimmers. Another 40% of impingement is associated with entry, and here's
where the "going for depth" stuff comes in.
Alex misinterprets the meaning of my phrase "going for depth." (n.b. this is
obviously my fault - not Alex's - that my meaning was not clear). Alex was, in
effect, saying that horizontal, backwards forces with a bent elbow are
preferable to vertical, up and down forces with a straight elbow. I could not
agree more. By "going for depth," I certainly was not intending to advocate
something like a big downward press, leading to an almost straight elbow
position during the pull. Rather, the operative word was/is "EARLY." Thus, in
the hitch stroke, one glides on the long forward arm with a locked elbow, while
in the kayak stroke, one "goes for depth" (i.e. the catch position) EARLY
(without substantial delay), thus minimizing the time spent in the harmful
(impingement wise) Neer Test position. So this was just a semantic
misunderstanding. I am in agreement with Alex that what is best is to generate
horizontal (front to back) forces with a bent elbow, rather than to make long
sweeping movements with a nearly straight elbow.
Once again, for long forward afficionados, the stress associated with this
position may be greatly reduced by maintaining a position of external rotation
during the reach forward, entry, and glide. I acknowledge that there is
probably a mechanical advantage to having the hand in a position of internal
rotation at the time of catch and pull. If you can tolerate this and don't
have any shoulder pain, then, fine, go4it. But if you have shoulder problems,
you can almost completely avoid any impingement stress by maintaining a thumb
forward/pinky back position thoughout the forward reach, catch, and pull. To
make this more mechanically efficient, I suggest entering a little wider than
usual, and making the pull sort of an inward diagnal, somewhat reminiscent of a
butterfly catch and pull.
>Finally, the head lift associated with "loping" that you desire inhibits the
>swimmers. Here's why. When you lift your head up your hips will sink thus
>taking the swimmer out of their streamlined position or they are arching
>their back and then wasting energy by trying to stay streamlined. Both
results are
>undesirable to all swimmers. Also, when most swimmers lift their head up
>their stroke slows slightly thus giving the effect that they are causing more
>momentum when bringing their loping arm forward. If you can disprove this
>with facts or by examples like I did with the difference in pulling, please do
so
>because this is the way I view it and probably others as well.<<
The above is certainly conventional wisdom, but I do not think that it is
necessarily correct in the case of Thorpe and Evans. I can provide both
"facts" and "examples":
The strongest "facts" are, as noted above, that the greatest records in all of
men's and women's freestyle swimming were achieved by swimmers (Thorpe and
Evans) who each swam with an EXTREME head lift (head up and forward at the time
of weak side hand entry, chin clear of the water in the case of Evans). Now,
you may claim that they would swim even faster without the head lift (actually,
Kevin M did claim precisely this), but I seriously doubt that the head lift is
a detriment to these swimmers and I seriously believe, instead, that it is/was
a help to them.
Let's talk about the unbalancing effect of the head lift and also talk about
its energy cost. I have two things for you to try:
Swim a couple of laps in a pool wherein you look forward and lift your head out
of the water at the time of entry of your weak sided hand. You first look
forward, then turn slightly to breathe at the time you normally would. Most
people will probably find this to be very fatiguing. Now, repeat exactly the
same thing in the ocean (actually, ocean swimmers do this as a matter of
course, to stay on course). You will find that it is much easier in the ocean,
because of the greater buoyancy. No access to an ocean? Then pretend you are
Ian Thorpe and put on a pair of full size swim fins. Again, this exercise
becomes much easier, as I am sure that it is for Thorpe.
In the case of Evans, who did not have a great kick, she none-the-less kept in
perfect front to back balance (I've got great long underwaters of her 800 in
Seoul and of her swimming in other meets) despite perhaps the most prodigious
head lift in all of elite swimming (funny how no one ever noticed this, as
everyone was instead fixated on her straight arm windmill stroke, which was
actually the least remarkable aspect of her technique). In Evans' case it is
very easy to see the power she got into her down side arm (she swam 80% of the
time with her left arm as the arm opposite her breath in 1988 and I believe
that this increased to close to 100% of the time later on in her career) when
her head crashed - rather violently - back into the water coincident with her
weak side pull.
So I don't think how one could say that Evans was really hurt by raising her
head at the time when she was 100 pounds and setting her WR. She kept
perfectly flat because of the tone in her lower back muscles, maintaining a
constant lordosis. Did this cost her a lot of energy? I don't think so (the
lordosis, that is; as it is really more a matter of muscle tone than of muscle
movement). Contrast this with the effort it takes to rotate the hips in a
sideways arch, back and forth, against the resistance of the water, and with no
momentum to assist the swimmer. Evans swam almost perfectly flat on one side
and had only a modest hip turn on the other ("loping") side, where the movement
was predominately out of the water (no water resistance) head turning and
shoulder turning. So she didn't have to generate the side to side movements
against the resistance of the water. I'd say that it was about a "wash" (more
"energy" to maintain lordosis but less "energy" lost to hip turning). Now it
may be that Evans' technique was no longer optimum when she gained 25
additional pounds later in her career. Maybe all that out of the water upper
body movement was just harder to do when she had more of an upper body. (I
think that this is the reason why Amanda Beard-type teenie-bopper
breaststrokers have problems with they grow up and develop an upper body as
well, but this is a topic which has been previously discussed on this
newsgroup.)
So, while I think that the head lift (at least in fresh water) may not be such
a great idea for the average swimmer with a middlin' kick and a big upper body,
I do think that it may offer a gravitational assist to the weak side arm in a
swimmer who either has a prodigious kick (like Thorpe) or a small upper body
(like Evans, early in her career).
- Larry Weisenthal