FistGlove scam?
HaroldBuck
these gloves on and they make you keep your hand in a fist so you learn to
balance your body without using your hands.
Can't I just swim with my hands in fists, you ask. No, they tell you, because
the FistGloves keep your hands from feeling the water, and keeping you
"blindfolded" in this way makes you work even harder to learn to balance.
This may be true. But wouldn't wearing a pair of regular latex gloves and then
keeping your hands in fists on your own accomplish both goals while only
costing about $0.50?
-Harold
Donal Fagan
>So, probably everyone has heard about FistGloves. The idea is that you put
>these gloves on and they make you keep your hand in a fist so you learn to
>balance your body without using your hands.
AIUI, the idea is that you learn to use your forearm in the stroke,
but I might have missed the balance idea.
>Can't I just swim with my hands in fists, you ask. No, they tell you, because
>the FistGloves keep your hands from feeling the water, and keeping you
>"blindfolded" in this way makes you work even harder to learn to balance.
I don't know who 'they' are, but I find that having a glove hold my
fingers back is more relaxing than keeping my hands in a fist.
>This may be true. But wouldn't wearing a pair of regular latex gloves and then
>keeping your hands in fists on your own accomplish both goals while only
>costing about $0.50?
Or, you could cut the fingers off and use duct tape to cover the
holes. Or, forget the gloves, just wrap duct tape around your hands.
Donal Fagan
Do...@DonalGraetzFagan.com
remove the author's name to reply
Ars honeste petandi in societate
Bill Geiser
> But wouldn't wearing a pair of regular latex gloves and then
> keeping your hands in fists on your own accomplish both goals while only
> costing about $0.50?
I've used the fistgloves for several years. My experience is they are
considerably different from latex gloves, principally due to the
'fit'. The firstglove - if sized correctly - prevents any water from
leaking in. I could never accomplish that with latex gloves, no matter
how hard I tried. Swimming with a water-logged glove on your hand
defeats the real purpose because it so alters your stroke dynamics.
Another thing to consider - having the glove hold your hand in a fist
is somewhat easier than having to hold your hand in a fist'manually'.
This allows you to keep a somewhat more relaxed forearm, enabling you
to 'release' more natuarlly at the end of your stroke and enables you
to gain a better feel for the water.
IMHO, they are well-worth the investment.
Bill Geiser
Jim White
training purpose of using my whole forearm in the stroke. They keep me from
even thinking about cheating when doing fist drills. I don't see where the
"scam" is. They help reduce my stroke count when I take them off, and they
are cheap-- under $20 for 2 pair. My only real complaint is that I have to
order them and pay postage. I can't just buy them in my local sporting
goods store and swim shop.
--Jim
"Bill Geiser" <wpge...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:2f511c54.02091...@posting.google.com...
Scott Lemley
cents. I "invented" fistgloves in 1980 and used them with my swimmers
for about 15 years before I ever thought about marketing them so mea
culpa. My coaching staff used to use duct tape (how did Donal know
that?) in the early years to keep our swimmers' hands closed. It takes
a long time to duct tape 20 kids' hands into fists (we put a modified
ziploc sandwich bag around their fists first so the duct tape wouldn't
stick to their skin). This sounds a little extreme I know. You have to
really buy into "clenched fist swimming" as a drill or none of this
will make any sense to you. If you like the basic concept then you'll
know why wearing fistgloves enhances the drill. They allow you to
relax as you swim with your fists. That was never part of the
experience. It wasn't called a "clenched" fist drill for nothing.
Jim's barking up the right tree in terms of their being any "scam"
going on here. I wish I was a big enough operation to distribute
fistgloves through every sports store. I apologize, Jim. I'm your
basic one man show.
Best regards,
Scott Lemley
chris mazur
puzzeled, prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and then, in a
very wise voice, sed: :
>So, probably everyone has heard about FistGloves. The idea is that you put
>these gloves on and they make you keep your hand in a fist so you learn to
>balance your body without using your hands.
>
>Can't I just swim with my hands in fists, you ask. No, they tell you, because
>the FistGloves keep your hands from feeling the water, and keeping you
>"blindfolded" in this way makes you work even harder to learn to balance.
As a coach, i have found that no matter how much i stress to my kids
that they have to keep their hands closed in a tight fist, they will
eventually "cheat" and start opening up more and more of their hands
to get a better pull on the water. i think they do this unconsciously.
The fistgloves help, in my opinion, in that you can completely take
your mind of keeping you hand in a fist, and place it
elsewhere--stroke technique, tough intervals, math homework, whatever.
If you don't want to use fistgloves, don't use 'em. No big whoop.
--
chris
"Nothing is real."
Brian D
chris mazur <cm...@cox.net> wrote:
[snip]
> As a coach, i have found that no matter how much i stress to my kids that
> they have to keep their hands closed in a tight fist, they will eventually
> "cheat" and start opening up more and more of their hands to get a better
> pull on the water. i think they do this unconsciously. The fistgloves help,
> in my opinion, in that you can completely take your mind of keeping you
> hand in a fist, and place it elsewhere--stroke technique, tough intervals,
> math homework, whatever.
>
I one time found after success with my group in maintaining the fist, a coach
at the other end of the next lane told them off for having a closed fist! You
can't win. I have found closed fist useful in my own training.
--
Brian Duffell RiscPC600 | StrongARM 233Mhz RISC OS 4 66Mb
Linux PCs on RISC OS network | <br...@duffellb.freeserve.co.uk>
Darlington Dolphin Masters ASC | <www.darlington-masters.org>
HaroldBuck
that they have to keep their hands closed in a tight fist, they will
eventually "cheat" and start opening up more and more of their hands
to get a better pull on the water. i think they do this unconsciously.
The fistgloves help, in my opinion, in that you can completely take
your mind of keeping you hand in a fist, and place it
elsewhere--stroke technique, tough intervals, math homework, whatever.
>>
That seems reasonable. However, every time I read an article by Terry Laughlin,
he seems to concede that you *can* just keep your hands in a fist but that
you'll miss out on the full effect because your hands will still be able to
feel the water. If you buy that premise, then the cost of fistgloves seems
really high when regular latex gloves should do the same thing (keep your hands
from feeling the water).
However, if you can't keep your hands in a fist, maybe it is worth the extra
money.
-Harold
Donal Fagan
>That seems reasonable. However, every time I read an article by Terry Laughlin,
>he seems to concede that you *can* just keep your hands in a fist but that
>you'll miss out on the full effect because your hands will still be able to
>feel the water.
Maybe Terry is addicted to the "fistglove rush," that feeling you
get, after removing the fistgloves, that your hands are as big as
trash can lids.
Donal Fagan
You're wearing a mask,
You're wearing a mask,
You're wearing a mask,
You look better that way
Mask - Iggy Pop
Donald Graft
Don
"Donal Fagan" <Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> wrote in message
news:f9v0pug6likc4lo0f...@4ax.com...
4precious
I own a pair of fist-gloves. I've used them. I recently read an
article on buoyance and torque in front-crawl swimming by Yanai. I
posted the location of the article in a different missive.
Based on that article, fist-gloves, or any fist swimming, is probably
a bad idea.
The punch-line of the article is that buoyancy in front-crawl swimming
actually occurs lower on a persons body than their center of mass.
Therefore, contrary to conventional wisdom, buoyancy serves to lower
the head and RAISE the legs.
So how come we always feel like our legs want to sink? Well, the
answer is probably our propelling arms.
Imagine yourself on a teeter-totter which is the length of your body.
With the bar supporting the plank directly under your center of
gravity. Hence you are balanced in a horizontal position. Now
imagine reaching out an arm and pushing down on something solid which
is not connected to the teeter-totter, like a pole in the ground.
It's intuitively obvious that your legs are going to go down, and your
head up, isn't it?
Well, that's the conclusion of the Yanai paper. Namely, that the
force that sinks your legs is the propulsive forces of your arm. And
that leg-sinking torque occurs during all phases of arm motion -
catch, insweep, backsweep/upsweep.
Okay, so after all that, back to fist-gloves. What kind of balance
are they going to teach you if they are masking the main mechanism
that serves to put you out of horizontal alignment? Someone can swim
with good horizontal alignment using fist-gloves, but when they start
generating much more force with a flat hand, it's going to be a whole
new ballgame.
-Eric
Scott Lemley
Greetings Don. Just to set the record straight - Total Immersion gets
no cut from the sales of fistgloves through their web site. Neither
does Kiefer & Associates get a cut of the sales from their catelogue.
They are both simply distributors. They buy fistgloves from me
wholesale and sell them to swimmers retail. It's not a conspiracy,
it's just business.
I believe fistgloves are a useful tool to help swimmers gain finesse
in the water; they're a learning tool not a training tool. Almost
every major suit manufacturer believes their suits reduce resistance
better than their competitor's suits. Companies and individuals sell
their oversize, oddly shaped, perforated, etc., paddles with claims
they build strength and/or improve technique. Have you counted the
different kinds of goggles there are available lately? The strength of
the free enterprise system is that the market rules. People are the
market. In the swimming world, if a product doesn't work for people,
sooner or later no one will have anything good to say about that
product and no one will spend good money on it. History will term that
product merely a fad. We know goggles aren't a fad - they're the best
swimming product going. Where the big paddles, small kickboards, and
miles of surgical tubing will be judged by history, only time will
tell.
Regards,
Scott
Donald Graft
"Scott Lemley" <sle...@awcable.com> wrote in message
news:864627d9.02092...@posting.google.com...
> "Or maybe he gets a cut of the sales made through his website. Don"
>
> Greetings Don. Just to set the record straight - Total Immersion gets
> no cut from the sales of fistgloves through their web site. Neither
> does Kiefer & Associates get a cut of the sales from their catelogue.
> They are both simply distributors. They buy fistgloves from me
> wholesale and sell them to swimmers retail.
Buying wholesale and selling retail involves making a profit on the sale.
Sure, it's just business. But the point is they have a pecuniary interest
and so their opinions are not impartial.
Are you saying they do not mark up the price from wholesale to retail?
If not I have trouble reconciling your assertions that
"Neither does Kiefer & Associates get a cut" and
"They buy fistgloves from me wholesale and sell them
to swimmers retail". Perhaps you could clarify that for us, given that
you want to set the record staright. Thank you.
Don
Donal Fagan
>Okay, so after all that, back to fist-gloves. What kind of balance
>are they going to teach you if they are masking the main mechanism
>that serves to put you out of horizontal alignment? Someone can swim
>with good horizontal alignment using fist-gloves, but when they start
>generating much more force with a flat hand, it's going to be a whole
>new ballgame.
That's also an argument against kickboards, fins, paddles and
pull-buoys. Any of these could change your horizontal attitude as you
swim.
The reason for kickboards is, well I don't know. I bought a Zura and
I use it sometimes, but I don't really need it for flotation.
The reason for fins is that they loosen/strengthen your ankles (or so
I am told). I generally only use them for body dolphin drills.
The reason for paddles is that they strengthen your arms more than
ordinary water resistance (or so I am told). I never use them.
The reason for pull-buoys is to keep your legs up without kicking (or
so I am told). I never use them since my legs stay up without
kicking.
IMO, the reason for fistgloves is that they teach you to "reach over
the barrel" or use your forearms for better propulsion, not to teach
you balance.
And yes, I do notice that my head is way down with fistgloves, but I
always seem to pull much more back than down immediately after
removing them, so I suspect that they fix the problem you fear. I
haven't felt out-of-balance after using them.
I wear them for Breast, too. I find they encourage a very short
sculling motion, as recommended by Wayne McCauley (but not by my
coach, who wanted me to pull much farther back).
I'm trying to get brave enough to wear them for Fly. :-0
I can't imagine they'd be much good for Backstroke, but I could be
wrong.
Donal Fagan
www.donalfagan.com
Don't tell me,
It's gonna be alright,
You can't sell me,
On your optimism tonight.
Wish I May - Ani DiFranco
Scott Lemley
"Buying wholesale and selling retail involves making a profit on the
sale. Sure, it's just business. But the point is they have a pecuniary
interest and so their opinions are not impartial.
Are you saying they do not mark up the price from wholesale to retail?
If not I have trouble reconciling your assertions that "Neither does
Kiefer & Associates get a cut" and "They buy fistgloves from me
wholesale and sell them to swimmers retail". Perhaps you could clarify
that for us, given that you want to set the record staright. Thank
you.
Don"
Don,
There is no conspiracy here. To clarify, again - you implied TI got a
"cut" from fistglove sales through their web site, meaning, I guess,
that they got a "kickback" from me whenever they sold a pair of
fistgloves. Nope, there is no "kickback". They buy fistgloves from me
wholesale, they mark them up, they sell them on their web site. It's
all pretty straightforward. Kiefer's arrangement with me is the same;
they buy them from me wholesale, mark them up, and sell them through
their catalogue. There's nothing underhanded going on. It's the free
market system. Since TI instructors use fistgloves in their camps and
TI sells fistgloves through their web site, I don't find it strange
that they have good things to say about fistgloves. Do I pay Terry
Laughlin to endorse fistgloves? No. He doesn't have to feign an
interest in fistgloves for money; he truly likes what they do for
swimmers, be they novice or elite.
And, of course, Terry's opinions are just as partial or impartial as
yours are. You've got your agenda, I've got mine, Terry has his. We're
all guaranteed the right to express our opinions. Obviously just
expressing an opinion doesn't make that opinion right or wrong. That
judgment must be made by those reading what we write, based on each
readers' own experiences and knowledge.
Thanks for another opportunity to set the record straight.
Regards,
Scott
chris mazur
pondered, puzzeled, prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and
then, in a very wise voice, sed: :
>market system. Since TI instructors use fistgloves in their camps and
Scott,
i wish you would go back to making the market just a little "free-er"
if you know what i mean. Only 2 retail distributers? i will no longer
buy anything from Kiefer, so that's out. i have nothing against TI,
but it would be so much nicer if i could get them through my local
team dealer.
Another thing, i wish you would bring back the smaller sizes. Many of
my kids find that your size recomendations are too big.
Scott Lemley
<<Scott,
i wish you would go back to making the market just a little "free-er"
if you know what i mean. Only 2 retail distributers? i will no longer
buy anything from Kiefer, so that's out. i have nothing against TI,
but it would be so much nicer if i could get them through my local
team dealer.
Another thing, i wish you would bring back the smaller sizes. Many of
my kids find that your size recomendations are too big.>>
Chris,
I do know what you mean. I'll work on that. My current business model
calls for customers being able to order fistgloves either from a web
site or by simply dialing an 800 number. The next step would be to
have them available through the 100 major and minor swim shops in the
country. That's a big step for a one man operation, however, it may be
time to take that step.
As to the sizes available, you should be able to get any size from TI
or Kiefer. The most popular sizes are the black larges (#5) which fit
relatively big hands, the blue mediums (#4) which fit my hands (I'm
6'0", 185lbs) as well as the average high school boy, and the green
smalls (#3) which fit high school age girls and the average female
masters swimmer. I also sell yellow extra smalls (#2) which fit age
groupers in the 11 - 13 year old range and, though I haven't
manufactured them for awhile, I still have in stock the yellow extra
extra smalls (#1) which fit age groupers in the 8 - 10 year old range.
If need be, I can also produce extra larges (#6) for really big hands
and even have forms for dipping extra extra larges (#7) which I made
at one time to send to college coaches for their really big male
sprinters.
Once you've used fistgloves for awhile, you'll have a sense of what
size works best for you. I personally recommend a size small enough to
keep water out. The size recommendations that Kiefer and TI use are
geared for new fistglove users, that is, they both suggest a larger
size than I would like them to in order to make it easier for first
time users to get the fistgloves on their hands. It sounds like you
can go beyond their recommendations and order sizes that you know work
for your kids. Give Total Immersion a call and ask them for extra
smalls (yellow #2s) and I guarantee they'll fill your order.
Thanks for your interest.
Regards,
Scott
Duke
So what are fistgloves? How do they help?
I tried lookin' 'em up, but all I could find were useless marketing success
stories. What exactly do they do, how do I know if I can benefit from
them? How do I fit them into my routine? What will they do for me?
Thanks,
-- Duke.
Michael Edey
> I tried lookin' 'em up, but all I could find were useless marketing success
> stories. What exactly do they do, how do I know if I can benefit from
> them? How do I fit them into my routine? What will they do for me?
> Thanks,
>
> -- Duke.
My understanding, not having actually used them, is that they are a device to
assist one doing the "fists" drill. It's a pretty common drill, though you
may have been exposed to it under a different name. The general idea is that
if you swim with a closed fist you shall be forced to pay more attention to
your forearm, thereby increasing the the "catch" you achieve with surfaces
other then your hand. This is important because, all too often, it is easy
to attenuate the "feel" of the of the forearm in favour of the hand. You
simply feel more with your hand - it's a more sensitive instrument. This
leads to swimming with cocked wrists, with all the propulsive forces being
generated against the surface of the hands, and none at all involving the
forearms.
Given this I believe the gloves just keep your hand in a fist, alleviating
the desire to slowly extend the fingers. It's a tough impulse to resist and
I guess the gloves may be more satisfactory then either of the two easiest
adaptations. The first being to relax the fist a little allowing the hand to
have greater surface area then a fist, but smaller then the open palm. The
second requiring a very tightly closed fist which can not only cock the
wrist anyway, but also deviate one's attention from the forearm to the
action of clenching the fist. The gloves should alleviate these problems by
allowing the fist to remain closed without clenching or sustained attention.
The fists drill is very useful for many, particularly those who swim with
dropped elbows, or with exaggerated hand placement & motions. It is also good
for those without these defects as it forces one to swim with a different
feel - to see things from a different perspective, as it were. Your
challenges, and benefits, regarding the drill will be different from others,
as will it be if the goal of the drill changes. I would think, then, that
the benefit from using such an aid (the fist gloves) would also vary from
person to person and "sub drill" to "sub drill". It may very well be that,
though I can not recommend them not having any experience with said product,
the gloves could be of some degree of help for you. I know, certainly, that
the drill(s) can be very beneficial, though their effect seems directly
proportional not to the quality of their performance but rather to the
quality of the attention & thought put toward them.
GL
Mike
Scott Lemley
The fistglove® is a simple device used to aid swimmers who want to
practice the "clenched fist" swimming drill more effectively. This
drill has been around for 40 or 50 years and has been nearly
universally accepted as useful. I believe making an already useful
drill more effective is a good thing.
Humans can be characterized in various ways, one of which is that we
are tremendously eye-hand coordinated, that is, we apprehend the world
mainly with our eyes and hands. Not only do we "view" the world
tactilely with our hands, we also manipulate the physical world with
our hands. The most sensative part of our body, that is, the area with
the greatest density of nerve endings in the skin, is the lips. Not
very useful for swimming but oh so useful in eating, speaking
distinctly, kissing, etc. The next most-sensative area to pressure is
the skin of our palms, a very useful surface while swimming.
Our hands are so highly innervated with pressure sensative nerve
organs that we're constantly aware of the pressure of the force of the
water resisting our hands when we swim. Most of us wouldn't know we
swim with a "dropped elbow" because we're usually processing so much
information from our hands that we aren't aware of the pressure (or
lack thereof) on our forearms. It normally takes a coach telling us to
"swim with a high elbow" or underwater video-tape feedback of our
stroke to help us make the correction.
It's generally understood by most coaches that utilizing the forearm
while swimming nearly doubles the amount of propulsive force one can
apply to the water. Swimming with "clenched" fists reduces the pulling
surface we normally use to hold the water (our hands) to small round
balls from their normally large flat "paddle-like" shape. The only
pulling surface we have left is the surface of the forearm. Our
forearm isn't shaped like a paddle, however, it is fairly large and it
can rotate fairly well. To truly be effective when swimming, one needs
to "anchor" as much of the hand-forearm surface as possible against
the water to have something to push off.
The drawbacks to the "clenched fist" drill are A. it takes a fair
amount of our attention to keep our hands tightly closed, and B.
correctly executing the drill produces a fair amount of tension in our
hands, wrists, and forearms. When considering age group swimmers, most
open their hands underwater (because they hate the feeling of NOT
holding the water) and close their hands back into fists during the
recovery phase to fool their coach, and then the drill becomes totally
ineffective. Of course, masters swimmers have the discipline to keep
their hands tightly closed so they only suffer from the first two
drawbacks.
There is no doubt that any athletic activity is improved when the
athlete can move in a more relaxed fashion. Wearing a pair of
fistgloves® keeps the hands tightly closed without tension thus
allowing swimmers to execute the drill in a totally relaxed state (or
at least as relaxed as they normally are when they swim). Swimmers are
also free to focus their attention on different parts of their stroke
- like the pressure of the force of the water on the surface of their
forearms - rather than concentrating on keeping their hands tightly
clenched. From my perspective, this enhances an already useful drill.
Regards,
Scott Lemley, inventor of the fistglove® stroke trainer
Jill
> the desire to slowly extend the fingers. It's a tough impulse to resist and
> I guess the gloves may be more satisfactory then either of the two easiest
> adaptations. The first being to relax the fist a little allowing the hand to
> have greater surface area then a fist, but smaller then the open palm. The
> second requiring a very tightly closed fist which can not only cock the
> wrist anyway, but also deviate one's attention from the forearm to the
> action of clenching the fist. The gloves should alleviate these problems by
> allowing the fist to remain closed without clenching or sustained attention.
So about two weeks ago, I was finishing up a nicely paced set. My
watch band has velcro, and the velcro's starting to go. About 25 yards
into the 100, the velcro did cease to grip and the whole watch came
off. Grab the watch in one hand and finish the set. Result: because I
was holding the watch, I was basically doing a closed fist drill with
one hand. So if you're really wanting to do that drill and keep hands
closed without the fistgloves, why not try holding onto a pebble or
other small object loosely in each hand?
Harold Buck
sel...@myrealbox.com (Jill) wrote:
> So about two weeks ago, I was finishing up a nicely paced set. My
> watch band has velcro, and the velcro's starting to go. About 25 yards
> into the 100, the velcro did cease to grip and the whole watch came
> off. Grab the watch in one hand and finish the set. Result: because I
> was holding the watch, I was basically doing a closed fist drill with
> one hand. So if you're really wanting to do that drill and keep hands
> closed without the fistgloves, why not try holding onto a pebble or
> other small object loosely in each hand?
Maybe you could market watches with velcro that doesn't work for people
to hold in their hands while swimming :-)
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
Michael Edey
Seriously though, i think the main advantage that the gloves are supposed
to have is that you don't have to think about clutching the fist. Not that
this is terribly difficult, but it does tend to turn one's attention away
from the forearm where it belongs (during this drill). I dunno - I don't
use or make the things, that's just the way I see it
GL
Mike
Donald Graft
hand turn's one's attention away less than holding a
pebble???
I have tried them.
Don, amused
"Michael Edey" <m...@fiftyfly.mine.nu> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.19...@fiftyfly.mine.nu...