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Janet Evans build and drug abuse. Was: Michelle Smith and Drug allegations

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John Heenan

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Aug 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM8/31/97

Below is an expose of common myths.

George Van Noy wrote:
>
> > > >Kieran
> >
> > All I want to add is this.... as drug testing increased in frequency
> and
> > sophistication, Janet Evens times dropped. There were other
> swimmers
> > with similar builds and physiuqe to michelle smith at Atlanta
> (including
> > americans) any of the the points you raised about Michelle Smith
> (all of
> > which are valid I might add) can be applied to other swimmers,
> American,
> > Chinese, etc etc.
> >
>
> Not a proof, however.... when Janet was at her peak she was a young
> girl,
> small of build, not at all a drug like look, and a high school
> student.

You are reflecting an ignorant stereotype. Drug abuse favours most
those who already are favourably built towards success in a particular
event in some sport. Steroid abuse enables more intense levels of
training to be endured as steroids accelerate the process of recovery
between training sessions by accelerating protein metabolism in muscle
tissue. The effects of more intensive training are not necessarily
large muscle mass, if the training does not result in larger muscle
mass, such as in endurance based training.

In swimming a huge variety of differently built people are successful.
It is grossly unfair to pick on someone and ignore others because of
their build, and say this provides evidence of drug abuse, since all
swimmers can benefit from steroid abuse to allow more intensive
training, without becoming muscle burdened.

Additionally Janet's father works in an industry with a long and
successful history of drug abuse: veterinary medicine.

Janet's performances declined as drug taking become tougher in the US.

> She had made consistent, although spectacular improvements, paid her
> dues,
> etc etc. Another small point, given the state of her high school and
> team
> experiences, a well-researched and hidden drug program would have been
> very
> difficult.

See above!

> Although, agreed, not as difficult as today. And today is
> when
> Smith performs.
>
> My vote: I think Smith has used effective training techniques and
> chemical
> help, all tuned to meet the standards of modern drug testing.
> Therefore
> the issue is complex, but she passes the ok test.
>
> What does all this mean? Frankly, since I swam in a totally bygone
> era,
> circa Murray Rose, the entire world of athletics is too
> professionalized
> for my taste. Perfection of Mind and body and a general healthy love
> of
> competition have given way to greed for gold, and greed for glory.
> ::: sic
> transit gloria.
>
> George Van Noy

--
John Heenan
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Ivan Szasz, MD

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Sep 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/4/97

> I sort of think that this thread of Evans v. Smith is futile and non
> productive. There is only speculation re: drug use in either case, no
> poof.

Let them be.

Jaan

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Sep 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/5/97

Ted Waldron wrote:

> I don't know much information about Michelle Smith's controversay, but I do
> know that Janet Evans had no implications of Drug Abuse throughtout her
> swimmng career.

I would suggest that you read the previous posts concerning Michelle
Smith, the argument is basically that any 'evidence' of michelle taking
drugs can be applied with equal validity to Janet Evens.

>She was tested as having on the best cardio vascular system
> on the planet when she was fifteen or sixteen before the Seoul Olympics.

Who conducted this test, where are the results, and what is the baisis
for the "best" cardio vascular system on the planet? I thought that
Vladimar Slakanov, the russian 1500m swimmer or perhaps a marathon
runner would take this honor.

> The events she competed in, would not give any sort of Performance drugs
> any help, distance events, the 400 and 800 free. (especially the Eight
> Hundred)

Not true. As it has been pointed out before, steroids/artificial
hormones ehances the bodies recovery system i.e it makes you recover
from, training quicker. If you lift weights, you'll grow larger,
quicker. If you are a runner, your muscles will recover from intense
aerobic work quicker, enabling you to train at a much higher intensity
for more of your training macro cycle, unlike clean swimmer. In plain
english, you can train harder for longer and recover faster. If
steroids donot benifit endurance sports, why does cycling, including the
road races, distance events etc have a poor track record? why does
soccer, an intense aerobic sport?

>If anyone knows her stroke which was a windmill, and it would make
> any coach cringe, unless of course the swimmer can make world records with
> such a horrible stroke.

Like many not if possesion of the full facts, you have made an error.
Michael Klim is moving away from a Popov style recovery towards a
straight arm "windmill" recovery to increase his stroke rate. What
happens above the water is almost illrelevant to the stroke as a whole.
Underwater footage has shown that Janet had a remarkabley effecuiant
stroke, similar to Glen Housman and Daneil Kowalski, whith greater hip
rotation.

>She got slower as she got older because

>A)like
> female gymnasts, her body was changing and couldn't keep up with the
> grueling training and maintain times that were fastest in the world, and
> probably be in the near future.

Care to say that to Svetlana Boginskaya? she competed, and made finals
in 3 Olympic Games, 88 (age 14) 92 (age 19) and 96 (age 23) and is still
competing and ranked in the top 10 for all events in womens gymnastics.
People such as Amy Van Dyken and Lisa Curry-Kenny have proved that with
modern training, age is no barrier. This is why many master swimmers
continue to do life-time PB's well into thier 50's. This argument has
some, but not much validity. Burn out does happen, she obviously
didn''t cope with it, or adapt her training program to stop it.

>B) as her cardio vascular was as not as
> strong as before, she couldn't rely on her inefficient stroke to keep her
> as the top distant swimmer.

Basis for this is? It is true that her cardio-vascular system may have
declined, but I wouldn't blame it all on that alone. I have already
given my opinion on her technique, it was not ineffeciant at all.

>Janet would had lost at Atlanta, to Michelle
> Smith or someone else, because her times were not that great before she got
> into Atlanta. To say she had taken performance enhancing drugs is
> absolutely ridiculous, when Summer Sanders beat her in the Olympic Trial in
> 92 in the 400 IM, no one was screaming that Sanders was taking drugs, or
> there was something wrong. The only person I know who got caught was Angel
> nee Marino or whatever her last name was, and she was a sprinter. I think
> Michelle Smith should be given the Benefit of the doubt,

I agree.

> I know where the
> US coaches are coming from, when they see an okay swimmer, become this
> super swimmer in a matter of months. However, Suspicion doesn't mean
> proof, but attacking Janet Evans is beyond silly.

Here is the "evidence" against these two swimmers

Michelle Smith

Muscular Build
Increadible improvment in a short time
Association with husband, who has
the knowledge to supply drugs.

Janet Evens

Great muscle definition (better than most spritners)
Great improvement in short time
Father has direct access to latest vetinary steroids.
Times declined consistantly as drug testing increased in frequency.
Competed less often

As you can plainly see, whatever you chose to apply (or not apply) to
michelle can be appled to Janet.
--

Jaan, Coach, Canberra

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Jaan

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Sep 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/5/97

Robert Frize

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Sep 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/6/97

In article <340F4A7B...@erich.triumf.ca>, "Ivan Szasz, MD"
<isz...@erich.triumf.ca> wrote:

...previous posting from Jaan...

>Here is the "evidence" against these two swimmers
>
>Michelle Smith
>
>Muscular Build
>Increadible improvment in a short time
>Association with husband, who has
>the knowledge to supply drugs.
>
>Janet Evens
>
>Great muscle definition (better than most spritners)
>Great improvement in short time
>Father has direct access to latest vetinary steroids.
>Times declined consistantly as drug testing increased in frequency.
>Competed less often
>
>As you can plainly see, whatever you chose to apply (or not apply) to
>michelle can be appled to Janet.
>--
>
>Jaan, Coach, Canberra

IMHO, Jaan's summary of the "evidence" of drug use as presented in this
newgroup (and other places) over the last year is the most concise and
illuminating I have seen. Ivan's brevity is even more concise -
speculation is not proof. Both Janet Evans and Michelle Smith deserve
respect and admiration for their achievements. If it can be PROVED that
they took advantage of performance enhancing drugs, then this respect and
admiration will be misplaced. However, the burden of proof is a heavy one
and the task of bearing it should not be attempted lightly.

--
Robert Frize
<rfr...@enterprise.net>

Harry P. DeLong

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Sep 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/7/97

If we stop and consider the "evidence" for drug use for either Michelle
Smith or Janet Evans and ask how much can we say with real substance
against either the answer is none. The discussions are opinion and
nothing else. So far there has been no statement with a reported source
of any reliability. No evidence just opinion with no basis.

Harry

Jaan

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Sep 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/8/97

to Ted Waldron

Ted Waldron wrote:
>
> In article <341031...@interact.net.au>, Ja...@interact.net.au wrote:
>
> > Ted Waldron wrote: okay so what did I write

> >
> > > I don't know much information about Michelle Smith's controversay, but I do
> > > know that Janet Evans had no implications of Drug Abuse throughtout her
> > > swimmng career.
> >
> > I would suggest that you read the previous posts concerning Michelle
> > Smith, the argument is basically that any 'evidence' of michelle taking
> > drugs can be applied with equal validity to Janet Evens.

> Frankly I don't give a rat's ass about the Michelle Smith versus Janet
> Evans postings, All I can say is that Michelle Smith won fair and square
> and she is proven clean, so I am not here to attack, Michelle Smith, but to
> say Janet Evans use drugs is idiotic.

>
> >
> > >She was tested as having on the best cardio vascular system
> > > on the planet when she was fifteen or sixteen before the Seoul Olympics.
>
> > Who conducted this test

> The Tests, were conducted at the US Olympic Training Centers in Colorado
> Springs before the Seoul Olympics, also, like countless other US swimmers,
> she has had her time in the Swim Tank, besides sixteen thousand other
> swimmers having her stroke examine. Like Lance Armstrong, (Hang in there
> buddy, World Road Race Champion, former Triathlete,fighting Testicular
> cancer, which probably has to do with a Morning Sickness pill that women
> were taking at the time of his conception, I am in the same high risk
> group, steroids have nothing to do with him,so leave him in peace)
> Indurain,Pierkans, Tom Whelan;(asthmatic) she is a person with an
> incredibly efficient Aerobic breathing system, that made her a up and
> coming star in US swim circles since she was twelve.

> > for the "best" cardio vascular system on the planet? I thought that
> > Vladimar Slakanov, the russian 1500m swimmer or perhaps a marathon
> > runner would take this honor.

> She was up there in the highest percentile, along with other endurance
> champions.

Thank you for providing this information. Is there someplace where this
information is avaible on the net?

> >
> > > The events she competed in, would not give any sort of Performance drugs
> > > any help, distance events, the 400 and 800 free. (especially the Eight
> > > Hundred)
> >
> > Not true. As it has been pointed out before, steroids/artificial
> > hormones ehances the bodies recovery system i.e it makes you recover
> > from, training quicker. If you lift weights, you'll grow larger,
> > quicker. If you are a runner, your muscles will recover from intense
> > aerobic work quicker, enabling you to train at a much higher intensity
> > for more of your training macro cycle, unlike clean swimmer. In plain
> > english, you can train harder for longer and recover faster. If
> > steroids donot benifit endurance sports, why does cycling, including the
> > road races, distance events etc have a poor track record? why does

> > soccer, an intense aerobic sport? Steroids do not get rid of Lactose Acid
> Build, up, it may give you bigger muscles, but they don't make them more
> cardio vascular or get rid of waste products easier.
> Human Growth Hormone and Anabolic Steroids also can screw up a women
> hormonal cycle, develop jaundice of the liver and enlarge the mandible.
> (because you seemed to think you know everything, I won't worry of putting
> things in laymen's terms) These don't help someone recover from a daily
> 12,000 metres workout. If Janet Evans was taking any performance enhancing
> drugs from Anabolic Steroids, HGH to Ephedrine or Ephrata Tea, then she was
> not getting her money's worth at the Seoul Olympics, when her weight was
> around 105 to 115 pounds or 47-52kg, compare to some of the East Germans
> who were around 150 to 160 pounds. No one would compare Janet Evans body to
> someone like Jenny Thompson, who needed the strength for sprinting.
> However because of the intense training that any female athetete in her
> menarche stage of development, her menstrual cycle will be suppressed, like
> gymnasts, like cyclist It is natural, and it will not cause a urine sample
> to come back with four or five times the amount of Pregesterone or
> Testosterone in the body.

Wrong, steroids DO help the body recover quicker by ehnacning the
muscles naturnal recovery cycle. It is true that steroids alone will
not help you get rid of lactate acid (a good swim-down will) but....
when you train a speed/intensity high enough to produce lactic acid, you
also cause many micro-tears in the muscles, burst cappiliars etc etc...
then they grow back bigger and better. This is what is known as
adaptation, and YES steroids ehances this, speeds it up etc. So in
plain english... you do a lactate set when on steroids and you will
recover quicker, and gain a better V02 max quickers, as your muscles
will recover and adapt quicker from the high-intensity training,
vasularize (able to transport oxygen) better etc etc.

>
>
> > >If anyone knows her stroke which was a windmill, and it would make
> > > any coach cringe, unless of course the swimmer can make world records with
> > > such a horrible stroke.
> >
> > Like many not if possesion of the full facts, you have made an error.
> > Michael Klim is moving away from a Popov style recovery towards a
> > straight arm "windmill" recovery to increase his stroke rate. What
> > happens above the water is almost illrelevant to the stroke as a whole.
> > Underwater footage has shown that Janet had a remarkabley effecuiant
> > stroke, similar to Glen Housman and Daneil Kowalski, whith greater hip
> > rotation.
>

> Wait a minute, the whole "science" of swim mechanics is quite subjective,

Very true, I'm glad another person can pick this up, perhaps a certain
anti-AIS fanatice would care to re-read that line again.

> yes I do know that what is important is underwater, but comparing someone
> stroke of someone tall like Klim to Evans is absurd.

yes, but interesting in a rather absurd way. Perhaps you would care to
compare it to Angela Kennedy or Natasha Bowron? both are short, small
swimmers (one is a sprinter, the other is a 800m FS swimmer, who
interestingly enough beat angie in 26.low at the maroubra seal sprint
classic last year)

>Janet Evans's stroke
> was never a one to envy, The whole issue of Straight arm versus High Elbows
> is a thread all its own. She was efficient, yes in her breathing but she
> probably could of gotten more leverage with her size and weight as she got
> older with something different than a windmill.
>

Exactly, she failed to adapt to her age, she faced burn-out, and instead
of looking for new smarter ways of doing the same thing, the kept doing
the same old same old. Probably not her fault.

> > >She got slower as she got older because
> >
> > >A)like
> > > female gymnasts, her body was changing and couldn't keep up with the
> > > grueling training and maintain times that were fastest in the world, and
> > > probably be in the near future.
> >
> > Care to say that to Svetlana Boginskaya?

> Excuse me, did you have a lobotomy recently? Janet Evans was always a Top
> Tenner in Long Distance Freestyle, however, like Boginskaya, she is not
> NUMBER ONE anymore. Her times are very very much slower than they were when
> she was by far the best female distant swimmer in the world. Also
> comparing Swimming ranking by times to Gymnastic achievement by Judges
> scores is not the point, Evans lost, but she was in the final, but she and
> Boginskaya are not the competitors they were in eight years ago, but they
> had their moment in the sun.
> Yes Many women in their mid and late twenties have competed in the Olympics
> for Swimming , except for Michelle Smith, they haven't won or dominated
> their field.

Amy Van Dyken... Susie O'neil.... some other american girl... Jenny
Tompson all well into thier 20's and dominate thier feilds in world
swimming. Add to that list 25 year old Sam Riley. The trend in
swimming is to have older finalists and medalist. An article was
published after atlanta giving the average age of medalist finalists etc
etc... and in EVERY event the age of the finalits is increasing and the
average age of medalists is increaing even more so.

> >
> > Basis for this is? It is true that her cardio-vascular system may have
> > declined, but I wouldn't blame it all on that alone. I have already
> > given my opinion on her technique, it was not ineffeciant at all.

> In some ways, if Evans was taking perfomance enhancing drugs, her times
> would have gotten better, not worst according to your scenario as she aged,
> but that was not the case. Her times by Barcelona were much slower than her
> world record times. She was remarkably bigger when she went to Stanford and
> at Rome in 1991.
>

I think you missed my point. IF she WAS taking drugs, then as testing
became for common and more complex, it MAY have interrupted her usage,
therefore her training and contributed to the slow and gradual delcine
we saw.

> > I agree.
>
> Geesh! my God! a point not thrown back in my face, Must have kept my elbows
> high!

You must have, but please, relax. I'm not here to destroy you comments,
or make a fool you. You have raised some valid points, others you have
missed, others we disagree on. That's OK with me, I enjoy these
discussions as long as they remain polite and civil.

> >
> > > I know where the
> > > US coaches are coming from, when they see an okay swimmer, become this
> > > super swimmer in a matter of months. However, Suspicion doesn't mean
> > > proof, but attacking Janet Evans is beyond silly.
> >

> > Here is the "evidence" against these two swimmers
> >
> > Michelle Smith
> >
> > Muscular Build
> > Increadible improvment in a short time
> > Association with husband, who has
> > the knowledge to supply drugs.

> I have said a couple times before, I am not here to attack Michelle Smith,
> I am not the others who have use the same technique of slandering someone
> without proof, whether it is Michelle Smith or Janet Evans.

> > Janet Evens
> >
> > Great muscle definition

> (better than most spritners)(This also comes from working out with weights
> three times a week, which is pretty standard now in the States down to High
> School Levels,Which I did in both High School and in College swimming in
> the Eighties before Janet Evans came on to the scene, I don't remember the
> women on my team getting steroid shots in their butts to get muscular.)

> > Great improvement in short time

> (This is WRONG! Evans has been a world Record Holder since she was 14, she
> didn't lose a long distance freestyle event until Barcelona in 1992,

OK, sudden improvement from age 12-14, THAT'S what I was getting at...
she shot to the top in a matter of months at an early age. Probably not
due to drugs, but as one famous coah once said
"it take between 8 and 10 years to create an overnight success story"

>She
> has been an incredible workout swimmer by those who swam with her, and she
> may have a Uneven Collegiate career because of NCAA rules, but she didn't
> all of sudden "appear" she has been swimming against the best in the world
> since 1986.

Prior to her swimming at the world level she swam against?????

> > Father has direct access to latest vetinary steroids. (so her father is a
> Veternarian, so he could probably get access to PCP or Angel Dust,marketed
> as an Animal Tranquilizer, so does that mean that Janet Evans took PCP
> everyday?, or how about drugs to repair Horse Lingaments, that American
> Football players have a liking for? sure would help the side effects of
> anabolic steroids. Assumption use against Michelle Smith, Janet Evans or
> Kirtsten Otto, are that assumptions, now in Otto case, or the Chinese
> Women, proof...........

I want to stress that I wrote this post simply to show that ANY and ALL
the arguments used against Michelle Smith by the US media and media
world-wide can be applied to many other swimmers such as janet evens,
amy van dyken, Otto etc etc. You could apply the "proof" (as people
call it) that smith is a drug user to any number of older, successful
swimmers. Strangley, america has alot of them.

> > Times declined consistantly as drug testing increased in frequency.(it is
> called gaining weight from developing into a woman, like Boginskaya)
>
> > Competed less often, (She was going to College,(and now Graduate School)
> and because of NCAA rules, she couldn't or any other US collegiate swimmer
> couldn't get hours of lap time or they would be breaking NCAA rules.
> Michelle Smith who went to University of Houston, was under the same NCAA
> rules as well.

> >
> > As you can plainly see, whatever you chose to apply (or not apply) to
> > michelle can be appled to Janet.
>

> I am not here to defend Janet Evans idiotic statements at the Olympics,

Thanyou, they were a disgrace.

>she
> had no proof that Michelle Smith was taking anything, except with the
> rumours the US coaches were spreading.

A defamatory action. Now if we could PROVE they were spreading
them..... : )

>The US coaches were probably having
> PCP flashbacks by all that Angel Dust Janet's Father was dealing, from the
> sudden rise of Chinese Women as a powerhouse. (and sudden demise) I am not
> really here to debate assumptions, or try to counter one idiotic argument
> with another. (vis a vie Michelle Smith's suspicions can be use against
> Janet Evans)

This is not an idiotic argument, but an exersice in reverse
pyschcology. I'm going to make a broad generalization now, so hold your
breath. America was shocked that an unknown irish swimmer could become
to star swimmer at thier backyard olympics. Rumors, based out of spite
spread. yet, when someone uses their exact arguments against a
cherished icon such as Janet evens, they go nuts. No you know how smith
feels. It is pointless in a way, but it serves a purpose:
The "proof" that michelle smith took drugs can "prove"
that the majority of female athletes over the age of 20
are drug users.

>Michelle Smith is innocent, and all the tests prove that she
> is, and that is the only proof we all have. However, Because Janet Evans
> had sour Grapes about getting her butt kicked at Atlanta, that does not
> mean she is guilty of drug abuse.

Exactly, well said sir.

>Even if she was taking drugs, the USSA or
> the USOC would had found out in no time and given her a one way ticket
> anytime in her career. Like Smith, she has been tested numerous times, and
> never had a positive match.

Remeber, alot of drugs reach the market and it isn't about 3 or 4 years
later that the pharmacutical companies bother to devise a test for them,
usually after the drug cause a sevre allergice reaction in someone.

> I don't think you will find alot of proof that
> USSA or the USOC were in a conspriracy to suppress Janet Evans drug test,

I've never heard of such a conspriracy, but it sound like crap to me.
USS wouldn't do that now, would it? i mean, they convenianlty ignored a
FINA imposed penalty (re. Foschi) but I doubt they would go so far as to
suppress these tests. As a bye-note, are there articles in Dejanews, on
web-site etc dealing with this highly unlikely and amusing conspiracy
thoery?

> there are too many swimmers and coaches who would have loved to knock her
> off a qualifier to any of her three Olympic appearances so their Swimming
> Primadonna could take a slot. (I knew one of her competitors in the 400 IM
> Kristen Quance,)
>
> If you can do 20x400 IM on the six or seven minutes for each 400 IM,or
> someother Mashochistic workout that I did in College.(I could only do 10 of
> these, and I was dead by the last one) give yourself credit, Evans did this
> with US MENs not women Olympic team regulary during workouts because she
> was too strong for the Women's team in 1988., and she was not know to use a
> ioniser to breathe at night that supposively Angel Marino said she used to
> get fast sprint times, when it was really from Anabolic steroids, or she
> took secret potions that the DDR Women would take. Now do the 20x400IM and
> tell me afterwards, how steroids are going to make that easier for your
> muscles to recover?

As mentioned previosuly, steroids encourage muscles growth and repair,
so in an endurance sport you can recover ALOT quicker from such intense
works outs as you have just mentioned.

>How the side effects of HGH and Steroids with Deep
> voices and prominent Facial Hair along your enlarge jaw for women are going
> to be ignored by all the other swimmers?

The side effects manifest themselves to different degrees in different
people, walk into any body-building gym where steroids are avible, and
see what I mean. Some get huge, others get a bit bigger, some get water
retention in their muscles, some don't etc etc

>Don't spew idiocy until you do the
> workout, and I think you will see that discipline and an incredible
> competiveness are alot stronger on Evans than any Performance Enhancing
> Drugs could have done on her.

I'm an ex-swimmer myself, and one of the work-outs I used to have to do
was 4 x 900 IM (200 of each stroke except br/s, 300m as I was a
breastroker) keeping HR 170+ (my max was 178)

>
> > Jaan, Coach, Canberra
>
> Act like a coach, stop spreading crap, oh I am sorry, Swim Coaches are
> Sadist, you can't help it.

Yeah, I know, no keep smiling and don't take it personally! : )
>
> Ted Waldron
> doing some laps in Lake Washington.
Is that water safe?

Jaan

unread,

Sep 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/8/97

to Ted Waldron

Francois Modave

unread,

Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97

Are you saying that a women has the same VO2max that a guy like
Indurain???!!!! who has a 88ml/min/kg VO2max...
come on, be serious...
The highest VO2 for a woman has been measured at 76 I think
(doing skiing)
If J.Evans has 88, she will beat even pierkins on a 1500m :-)))

--
*** Any opinion expressed above is strictly my own. ***
Disclaimer: I said this. My company didn't.

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