eye guards - are they necessary ?
cee...@netland.nl
I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
are very polarized opinions throughout the squash world, but no one seems to
have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been. Can anyone help
with some data ? What is your opinion ? Juniors, please join in.
Earl Christie
I do not have any statistics to report but I have some opinions. Eye
guards are like the life insurance people buy, they don't expect to
claim against it and they (that is, their next of kin) only get one
claim. In the same way, you may wear eye guards for 10 years and never
have a mishap, but the one time that you get a racquet or a ball in the
eye, you will be very glad you were wearing eye guard. I used to be anti
eye guard but as you get older you gain more respect for your eyesight.
The very minor irritation of having to wear eye guard is a small price
to pay for the peace of mind you get from knowing your eyes will be safe
from flying objects on the court.
The risk of getting an injury is inversely proportional to the level of
experience of the players, so I would highly recommend their use for
juniors.
--
Earl.
------------------------------------
remove the 'x' from my phony address
e-mail : exch...@technologist.com
------------------------------------
Jmonik
yeah once i got a splinter in my eye and cut it slightly -what a painful
frightening experience -spent quite a bit of time on the couch couldnt see
couldnt move my eye or open it without a lot of pain - and you get whacked in
the eye with the ball it could be gone -my three days on the couch is nothing
compared to losing it for good -what is there to discuss- mouthguards now
there is something to question should i wear a mouthguard im thinking about it
i can live with a broken nose but getting my teeth knocked out and wearing
false teeth just for squash it aint really worth it is it i came in the
court without eyewear said to me IT ONLY TAKES ONCES THATS ALL I NEEDED TO
HEAR WHERE IS THE ARGUMENT OR DISCUSSION ON THAT!
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <ceepol.1...@netland.nl>, <cee...@netland.nl> wrote:
>I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
>are very polarized opinions throughout the squash world, but no one seems to
>have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
>juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been. Can anyone help
>with some data ? What is your opinion ? Juniors, please join in.
There's no data to support any claim about the use of eyeguards. it is
unlikely that any statistical comparison will reach significance.
the only good reason to wear eyeguards is if the tournament you play in
insists on it. this is as far as i am concerned. ofcourse you're going to
get a lot of responses saying the equivalent of "only one injury is enough
and so it makes sense". sure. so wear them if you want. i've been hit in the
eye - while training, by a friend who took it upon himself to "test" my
reflexes. (scary experience, but i'm not about to bore anyone with a
nauseaus whine about injury and care in society etc etc). Put simply,
*I* dislike having to wear eyeglasses and dislike, even more, any sort
of "community care" or "personal care" arguments.
compulsory eyewear in tournaments is a bogus ruling. thankfully, its
largely limited to the US (canada?) (and even here many of the pro-draws
are eyewear free mainly because most international players think it
ridiculous). i'm almost certain that this difference is cultural and
reflects the way americans see themselves - for my part, a very "rulesy"
mainstream society in complete contradiction to the grandness of their
larger ideas. really, depending on where you play in the world with
eyeguards, you will either be considered uptight and strange, or, even
worse, silly and uncaring.
for junior squash? i don't know. instinctively i think it a good idea
but i can scarcely afford to advocate it :)
-sanjiv
--
Hanlon's Razor:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by
stupidity.
Kaustabh Duorah
Earl Christie wrote:
>
> cee...@netland.nl wrote:
> >
> > I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
> > are very polarized opinions throughout the squash world, but no one seems to
> > have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
> > juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been. Can anyone help
> > with some data ? What is your opinion ? Juniors, please join in.
>
> guards are like the life insurance people buy, they don't expect to
> claim against it and they (that is, their next of kin) only get one
> claim. In the same way, you may wear eye guards for 10 years and never
> have a mishap, but the one time that you get a racquet or a ball in the
> eye, you will be very glad you were wearing eye guard. I used to be anti
> eye guard but as you get older you gain more respect for your eyesight.
> The very minor irritation of having to wear eye guard is a small price
> to pay for the peace of mind you get from knowing your eyes will be safe
> from flying objects on the court.
> The risk of getting an injury is inversely proportional to the level of
> experience of the players, so I would highly recommend their use for
> juniors.
I completely agree. In fact, for me its like my seat belts. I feel very
unsafe in a car without my
seatbelt on. Same with the eye guard. After using several, I find that
the least irritating eyeguards
are the ones which are shaped like regular glass frames. The elastic
band ones are the worst, the glasses stick to your forehead and gets all
sweaty and you have to take them off every two points to clean them up.
A lot of people use it once and when they find some difference in the
view they give it up. They should stick to it for a little while longer
and get used to the view through the glasses. After that, its just a
matter of having the guard in your gym bag. You will automatically put
it on. I keep mine right alongside the racquet.
Kaustabh
--
Opinions expressed here are my own
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kaustabh Duorah, SMTS TranSwitch
Corporation
203-929-8810(W) 8 Progress
Drive
203-926-9453(Fax) Shelton CT
06484
duo...@txc.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christy Looby
ClivePollard(cee...@netland.nl) writes:
> I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
> are very polarized opinions throughout the squash world, but no one seems to
> have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
> juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been.
This is a pertinent topic as the WSF are introducing a motion at the Oct 8
meeting to make eyewear mandatory for all juniors worldwide in authorised
tournaments. This has been the case in Ireland for a number of years. They
don't seem to make a big deal of it but it does spoil matches when a lot of
rallies are punctuated by wiping glasses dry. I'm not a junior so I won't
offer any playing perspectives.
> Can anyone help
> with some data ? What is your opinion ? Juniors, please join in.
I'll bite and try to address this question by plagiarisation ;-)
From the ISF site http://www.squash.org/WSF/whyeye.html :
WHY EYE PROTECTION?...
Your Comments Please
-----------------------------------------------------
The World Squash Federation Annual General Meeting
in October 1997 will be asked to approve a motion
making it compulsory for eye protection to be worn
by all players in World Junior Championships from 1
January 1999.
FIRST, A TESTIMONIAL FROM WILL CARLIN<cut>
* THE OVERVIEW
The risk of serious eye injury in Squash is
very low, but one in every four players will
receive some form of injury of this type in
their playing life. However, the risk of a
player being blinded in Squash is TOTALLY
AVOIDABLE. The consequences of a momentary
lapse of concentration, or an accident, causing
a lifetime of blindness are too severe for the
WSF not to recommend eye protection and take
every step to make it worn by all players.
* WHAT IS THE RISK?
Serious cases of eye injury result in hospital
treatment, but the doctors and managers in them
are generally too busy healing the sick to
carry out studies on the causes of accidents in
minute detail. So there are many studies on
injuries through sport, some on eye injury in
sport, but few on eye injuries through Squash.
From those that have been done in England,
Germany, Sweden, Belgium, NZ, Australia, Canada
and USA the following facts emerge:
o Eye injury occurs between 5 and 33 times
per 100,000 playing sessions.
A person has a 25% chance of receiving an
eye injury in a playing career.
o In the UK there are an estimated 15,000
injuries per year.
o In Canada there were 280 recorded hospital
admissions between 1982 and 1987, before
mandatory eye protection.
o In 6 UK studies Football and Squash were
the sports most commonly causing eye
damage.
o In Australia 26% of all pennant players
admitted to a previous eye injury.
* WHO IS AT RISK?
All players. No exceptions. Often beginners are
less vulnerable because they do not turn around
to watch their opponent. Better players keep
their eye on the ball at all times and can be
more at risk. Good players do get injured. Read
the message from former USA Number 1 player
Will Carlin overleaf and stop believing your
skill will protect you.
* WHAT CAUSES THE ACCIDENT?
Most players receive minor injuries to the
eyebrow and eye surround from racket blows
which do not require any more treatment than a
dressing. Sometimes more serious accidents
happen with the racket, but two thirds of all
serious accidents, and almost all blind eyes,
are caused by the ball.
An A grade player hits the ball at up to 200
kilometres per hour and it has 4 times the
energy of a .22 bullet.
* WHAT DAMAGE OCCURS?
1. Hyphaema. Bleeding inside the eye. Long
term complications and possible glaucoma.
2. Pupil injury. Tears to the iris can
distort the pupil and lead to an inability
to focus.
3. Retinal damage. Haemorrhage & swelling of
the retina can permanently reduce vision.
4. Orbital fractures. Surgery is often needed
and double vision or disfigurement can
result.
* WHAT IS THE RESULT?
Blindness, even in one eye, can cause misery
and ruin lives and careers. In Israel an air
force pilot lost vision in one eye through a
Squash ball, he lost his licence to fly and a
future high earning job as a civil airline
pilot. He was compensated by the courts against
the club owners as they were judged to have not
advised him of the dangers.
* WHY JUNIORS?
The WSF believes that making eye protection
compulsory for Junior players in World
Championships is the right route to start
cultivating safe habits. Juniors accept the
situation more easily than adults who have
played for years without protection. Our
challenge is to make eye protection in Squash
fashionable - cool as the kids would say. They
wear knee pads and elbow protection when they
roller-blade. Crash helmets when they cycle or
play hockey. Gum shields when they play Rugby
or Football. They are all part of the dress
code and are seen as adding to the sport not
detracting from it. And, in your judgement,
which is the more serious - a grazed knee, a
broken elbow, a missing tooth, a cut head and
concussion&ldots;&ldots;.or a blind eye?
* THE FINAL FACTS
In Canada over 60% of adults wear eye
protectors. Ten years ago it was 20%. The
incidence of Squash inflicted blindness has
disappeared.
-----------------------------------------------------
Your Comments Please
WSF | ISF
--
Boast & drive until you drop , <pre>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christy Looby, .~=~. email: clo...@nmrc.ucc.ie
NMRC, Univ. College, /|#|#|\ Tel +353 (0)21 904 064(Direct)
Lee Maltings, ####========<#|#|@|# Fax 270 271
Cork. \|#|#|/
REPUBLIC OF IRELAND `"=~' http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/socs/squash
</pre>
Ian Green
there is a call for contributions to a WSF discussion on this topic.
http://www.squash.org/WSF/whyeye.html
cheers from edinburgh.
-i.
Carl Riehm
In article <612p9j$dbb$1...@netnews.upenn.edu:,
Sanjiv K. Talwar <sta...@red.seas.upenn.edu: wrote:
:
:There's no data to support any claim about the use of eyeguards. it is
:unlikely that any statistical comparison will reach significance.
Really? And on the basis of what data do *you* base *that* conclusion?
I have a friend who is an ophthalmologist, and she sees squash players
regularly who have been hit in the eye.
:
:
:larger ideas. really, depending on where you play in the world with
:eyeguards, you will either be considered uptight and strange, or, even
:worse, silly and uncaring.
Wow now I'm convinced. Sure would prefer to lose an eye than to look
uptight, strange, silly or uncaring. *that* is serious.
Carl.
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <613g7g$3...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
Carl Riehm <ri...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
>In article <612p9j$dbb$1...@netnews.upenn.edu:,
>Sanjiv K. Talwar <sta...@red.seas.upenn.edu: wrote:
>:
>:There's no data to support any claim about the use of eyeguards. it is
>:unlikely that any statistical comparison will reach significance.
>
>Really? And on the basis of what data do *you* base *that* conclusion?
you're confused. the only conclusion i'm reaching is that it will be hard
to statistically prove anything given the low incidence of eye injury in
the playing population. try thinking of a statistical study that compares
two populations one playing without gaurds and one with and try to
estimate what you need to reach mathematical significance to argue any
view point.
intuitively i can agree that if *you're* bothered about the
risks it may seem better to wear them. go ahead.
>I have a friend who is an ophthalmologist, and she sees squash players
>regularly who have been hit in the eye.
good for your friend. and i'm sure its true - but is this your data?
someone kindly posted a study by the WSF; reach your own conclusions as
to the risks. i'm uninterested in your conclusions.
>:larger ideas. really, depending on where you play in the world with
>:eyeguards, you will either be considered uptight and strange, or, even
>:worse, silly and uncaring.
>
>Wow now I'm convinced. Sure would prefer to lose an eye than to look
>uptight, strange, silly or uncaring. *that* is serious.
i'm not interested in convincing anyone of anything. you have the wrong
argument. further, your *judgement* of anything is irrelevant to me.
secondly, you misread again, although i admit i was ambigous in the post
above. i was trying (unsuccessfully) to say that it is strange how
different populations percieve things. let me try again: in some places
if you wear eyeguards you may be considered obsesive while in others
if you don't wear them you are considered silly. I believe that you,
in fact, have proved this exactly true.
do you actually believe that most populations in the world are simply
unaware of the dangers, or that their societies have wrongly assessed
the dangers for themselves? as usual, opinions change but the
conviction with which we hold them remains firm.
again, for me eyeguards are a nuisance and their enforcement is
ridiculous. i'm sure you disagree, now excuse me...
sanjiv
--
The day-to-day travails of the IBM programmer are so amusing to most of
us who are fortunate enough never to have been one -- like watching
Charlie Chaplin trying to cook a shoe.
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <n8bu16e...@leuven.nmrc.ucc.ie>,
Christy Looby <clo...@nmrc.ucc.ie> wrote:
>ClivePollard(cee...@netland.nl) writes:
>
>> I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
>
>From the ISF site http://www.squash.org/WSF/whyeye.html :
thanks to christy. let me polarize things even further:)
> * THE OVERVIEW
> The risk of serious eye injury in Squash is
> very low,
well there you have it. the WSF itself believes the risk of serious
eye injury is *very* low.
However, the risk of a
> player being blinded in Squash is TOTALLY
> AVOIDABLE.
The consequences of a momentary
> lapse of concentration, or an accident, causing
> a lifetime of blindness are too severe for the
> WSF not to recommend eye protection and take
> every step to make it worn by all players.
Given that the WSF believes the risk of serious eye damage is very
low this reduces to a judgement on the part of the WSF.
so let them recommend eye protection. great i'm for recommendations.
> sport, but few on eye injuries through Squash.
> From those that have been done in England,
> Germany, Sweden, Belgium, NZ, Australia, Canada
> and USA the following facts emerge:
i seriously doubt that any systematic study has been done in squash;
however, i'm quibbling so lets assume the validity of their results:
> o Eye injury occurs between 5 and 33 times
> per 100,000 playing sessions.
this is even lower than I thought. ie *all* eye injuries including
non serious ones occure at a maximum rate of 0.00033.
> o In the UK there are an estimated 15,000
> injuries per year.
> o In Canada there were 280 recorded hospital
> admissions between 1982 and 1987, before
> mandatory eye protection.
> o In 6 UK studies Football and Squash were
> the sports most commonly causing eye
> damage.
ha. I don't see FIFA rushing to adorn football (soccer) players
with eyeguards. of course, they're a lot more soccer players than
squash players in the UK...
> * WHO IS AT RISK?
> All players. No exceptions. Often beginners are
> less vulnerable because they do not turn around
> to watch their opponent. Better players keep
> their eye on the ball at all times and can be
> more at risk. Good players do get injured. Read
> the message from former USA Number 1 player
> Will Carlin overleaf and stop believing your
> skill will protect you.
This is nonsense. *obviously* no one is immune from accidents at any
time. Just how many serious eye injuries have happened in PSA tournaments.
None (i think). why don't the WSF use this as a statistical sample?
The WSF would do much better to persuade a top PSA player to argue
their case. Not to take anything away from carlin; he is a fine
player and fine fellow too i'm sure, just don't get caught in a locker
room chat about eyewear with him :)
>
> * THE FINAL FACTS
> In Canada over 60% of adults wear eye
> protectors. Ten years ago it was 20%. The
> incidence of Squash inflicted blindness has
> disappeared.
and this is statistical evidence? you can't conclude anything
from the above let alone present it as a "final fact". standing
by itself the above statement is a joke.
probably the only statement that can be made is that although the
rate of injury is very small when it does happen the *potential*
for serious injury exists. Sure, so? the situation is the same for a
lot of things (for soccer too apparently).
it really boils down to a subjective view of things. for instance,
try persuading a top PSA player in a british open to wear glasses
because of a 0.0003 probability of some sort of injury (mostly
non-serious) especially if his play is hampered by them. unless,
god forbid, the social climate becomes different you'll be laughed at.
as it is play seems to be getting held up all the time with the
increasing disatisfaction with referees etc. can you imagine the
mess when everyone is taking a breather because the eyewear is
clouded?
For the most of the best players it is a non-issue, face it.
unfortunately, its always the rest who make rules.
sanjiv
--
Sodd's Second Law:
Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is
bound to occur.
Michael Bishop
This should not be open for discussion. The large number of eye injuries
from squash has been documented and articles from the medical literature
cited in Squash News. It makes no more sense to reopen this discussion
than to discuss safety belts in cars.
On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 cee...@netland.nl wrote:
> I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
> are very polarized opinions throughout the squash world, but no one seems to
> have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
> juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been. Can anyone help
Dan Vranesic
Sanjiv K. Talwar wrote:
>
> In article <n8bu16e...@leuven.nmrc.ucc.ie>,
> Christy Looby <clo...@nmrc.ucc.ie> wrote:
> >
> >> I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
> >
My feeling on the topic is that i'm really not sure what my
opinion is. how's that for an opening statement?
I do know that i favour mandatory wearing of eyeguards for juniors
since they are too young to know what's good for them. adults,
however are a different matter.
In the article posted by Christy, i believe reference was made
to an Israeli pilot who lost vision in one eye, then sued
the squash club for not informing him of the potential danger.
Is it the club's fault that he was stupid? Should a squash
club be held responsible because a beginner screwed up? I don't
think so. The obvious remedy would then be to ensure that all
potential players are properly informed as to the risk involved,
or sign a waiver or something. That seems like a relatively
simple thing to do.
However, you can make the argument that (here in Canada at least),
society has to foot the bill for medical treatment of injuries,
which society doesn't like, so why not eliminate the possibility
by forcing eyeguards on everyone? Much the same way that we
force all motorcycle riders to wear helmets because it gets
expensive to constantly repair cracked skulls. Still, the incidence
of squash eye injuries is much lower than motorcycle accidents,
but you get the idea.
But are we justified in forcing adults, who know the risks
involved, to wear eyeguards? following the same line of
reasoning, shouldn't we then ban all risky activities such
as rock climbing, motorcycle riding, hell even walking down
the street because there's an outside chance that you might
get hurt, or even killed?
I suppose what I'm trying to say (I think I know what my
opinion is now...) is that as long as people are educated
about the risk involved, assume that risk as their own (no
lawsuits), i don't think wearing of eyeguards should
be forced on them.
Personally, I am a bit stupid about the whole thing. I try
to wear eyeguards most of the time, but sometimes, I start
to believe that at tournaments, my performance
may be incrementally poorer due to the eyeguards, so they
come off. Of course if one of my good friends, who spent 2 weeks
in a darkened room recovering from a squash-incurred eye
injury, comes to watch me, I make sure i'm wearing them
cause even if i'm suffering with them on, it's nothing compared
to how badly he would kick my ass off the court if he caught
me without them.
dan
Carl Riehm
In article <6151eu$bbi$1...@netnews.upenn.edu:,
Sanjiv K. Talwar <sta...@blue.seas.upenn.edu: wrote:
:
:
:
:however, i'm quibbling so lets assume the validity of their results:
:
:> o Eye injury occurs between 5 and 33 times
:> per 100,000 playing sessions.
:
:this is even lower than I thought. ie *all* eye injuries including
:non serious ones occure at a maximum rate of 0.00033.
:
Now in spite of Sanjiv's obvious talent for statistics, he apparently
overlooked the next line in the post which he is answering, to wit that
over a lifetime of playing squash rather than just a single match, this
means that the probability of having an eye injury is of the order of .25.
In fact for people like me who have been playing for more years than we
would like to admit, the probability would be even higher.
PRDuckman
I think you people are basically wasting your breath. If you believe eye wear
is good you wear it, if you believe it is a nuisance you don't. I personally
did not wear it till I saw firsthand the effects a squash ball can have on the
eye when a friend of mine was hit. He didn't lose his eye, or go blind, but it
scared the crap out of both of us, and I will not play without eye wear now.
While I firmly believe the benefits of eye wear FAR outweigh the negatives, I
also believe that people should be free to choose for themselves and I do not
go around trying (in Vain) to change peoples opinions on the subject. Many of
the players at my club refuse to wear them, and that is fine with me, they are
responsible adults capable of making decisions for themselves. Also, many of
them are doctors, or are in the medical field. They choose not to wear it
because they think it unnecessary. I do however think (and this is just an
opinion so don't freak out) juniors should wear them until they are either old
enough to no longer be considered juniors or they have reached a level of
profiecincy in the game where their legal guardians no longer consider them
necessary.
That is my 2 cents worth. and remember these are just my opinions (which by
the way every one is entitled to).
This whole discussion reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw not long ago.
(remember I live in America) it read:
"Against Abortion? Don't Have One"
well
"Against Eyewear? Don't wear it"
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <615obb$8...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
Carl Riehm <ri...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
>In article <6151eu$bbi$1...@netnews.upenn.edu:,
>Sanjiv K. Talwar <sta...@blue.seas.upenn.edu: wrote:
>:
>:
>:
>:however, i'm quibbling so lets assume the validity of their results:
>:
>:> per 100,000 playing sessions.
>:
>:this is even lower than I thought. ie *all* eye injuries including
>:non serious ones occure at a maximum rate of 0.00033.
>:
>:
>
>Now in spite of Sanjiv's obvious talent for statistics, he apparently
>overlooked the next line in the post which he is answering, to wit that
>over a lifetime of playing squash rather than just a single match, this
>means that the probability of having an eye injury is of the order of .25.
>In fact for people like me who have been playing for more years than we
>would like to admit, the probability would be even higher.
:)
ok, given the above, on the average you'll be playing for around 14 years
every day to have a 0.25 chance of injury. sure, it seems reasonable that 1/4
of long term players will have some history of injury.
notice how the WSF is phrased though. it begins by saying that the chance for
SERIOUS eye injury is *very* low. then it says that 25% of players will have
a history of eye injury. 25% is a huge number *not* acceptable in any society
surely. therefore it is a safe assumption that this number consists of players
who have incurred NON serious injuries whatever that this means according
to the WSF. I assume this implies injuries that do not threaten eyesight.
lets define that. this commonly implies stitches and the like around the region
of the eye. I very seriously doubt that this type of injury can even be prevented
by eyeguards at all.
the fact that the WSF cannot come up with a number for serious (thats what
we're discussing) eye injury except to state that it is *very* low really
gives the game away and undermines its report. anyone hoping to convince
people that the risk is greater than we commonly realize does not begin a
report with an admission like that. It is a fair bet that any number if it
exists is NIL compared to the sample size. i've said before take a look
at the PSA matches as a suitable popultion sample and you'll find nothing.
the most serious happening on the professional squash court is the death
of Torsham Khan Jehangirs brother - i think in 1978 of a heart problem
while playing Hunt. earlier there was an instance of Abu Talib in the sixties
who if i'm not mistaken sought to take Barrington out of the match. (anyone
with details?)
however, really, the above trivializes the issue and thats not my intent.
putting a number on serious injury and arguing through that is a little
shady. For me however, sport is not always concerned with public health issues
and sportsmen less so. this doesn't always imply a lack of concern or
of awareness in general.
the WSF clearly recognizes that it will be hard to slap eyeguards on the
seriously playing population. for instance, I don't see any PSA meeting
passing it at present. for very good reason in my mind not the least of
which is that everone is not motivated by the same concerns that beaurocrats
and practioners of "values" may have in common.
Therefore the WSF is taking the sensible way: bring up a population (juniors)
who they can legislate against and get them forcibly used to eyewear. After
this happens you can be sure that many of them will feel naked to step into
a court without one and will join in shouting down anyone remaining. If only
because they have been inculcated in certain manner of thinking and cannot
imagine that it could be otherwise.
sanjiv
--
Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <Pine.A41.3.95b.97100...@homer13.u.washington.edu>,
Michael Bishop <bi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>This should not be open for discussion. The large number of eye injuries
>from squash has been documented and articles from the medical literature
>cited in Squash News. It makes no more sense to reopen this discussion
>than to discuss safety belts in cars.
>
if i were you, i'd be cutting out that "medical literature" and forwarding
it to the "proper authorities".
you also forgot to add "in your opinion" to the above. maybe you'll also be
shocked to know that in very LARGE parts of the world it is not illegal
to drive without safety belts. NOT that i'm arguing against safety belts
in cars; there are differences that you very conveniently overlook, for
example the cost to public health and the real need to regulate safety
in populations that are hugely motorized.
if the case is as clearly as you make it can you explain why it is not
as clear to most populations in world and why any move to make eyewear
compulsory is constantly opposed by many. how come not many seem to
oppose safety belts? (perhaps they did when this was introduced ? :)
an ambigous reference to literature -however valid- is NOT going to cut
it in this case. this is sport and some of it serious if you didn't know.
i can respect your beaurocratic appeals to public health but try not to
make wild analogies. the realm of public health does not ALWAYS take
precedence in things you know. try and recognize this for a start.
i can also respect your effort to appear "responsible". after all every
thing has a fashion and this is no exception :) if you want a really want
a cause i'm sure you'll agree that they're a lot more important issues
you can focus on.
sanjiv
--
What if nothing exists and we're all in somebody's dream? Or what's
worse, what if only that fat guy in the third row exists?
-- Woody Allen, "Without Feathers"
Jonathan George
cee...@netland.nl wrote:
>
> I would like to open up a discussion on the use or not of eye guards. There
> have any data to back up any of the claims. I am especially interested in
> juniors and the number of injuries that there may have been. Can anyone help
> with some data ? What is your opinion ? Juniors, please join in.
It's all been said in the numerous posts in response to this.
For what it's worth I'm with Sanjiv.
If you want to wear eyeguards whilst playing then please do so, someone
mentioned mouthguards too, fine wear those if you like, hey wear body
armour if it'll make you feel "safer". To the WSF by all means
"recommend" that people wear eyeguards......
but please, please, please don't force the use of eyeguards on those of
us that decide not to wear them and who are fully aware of the risks and
consequences of not doing so.
The WSF are proposing to make these mandatory for Juniors. My only
concern with this is that if it is passed it could mark the slippery
slope for a blanket mandate and in my opinion this would not be good for
the sport.
I'll raise one final point for discussion, do you think that the wearing
of protection might actually encourage dangerous play?
I think there is, albeit a very small, risk that the wearing of
eyeprotection might just encourage (in a small part of the playing
population) the "hey, he's wearing protection so if I hit him what the
hell!" sort of attitude.
Could that account for some of the incidents where people have been hit
(and injured) with the ball or racket on the one occasion they don't
wear protection?. I've never played in the US, but I'd be interested to
know whether people who have played in and outside of the US feel that
this is argument has some merit!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan George - Hewlett-Packard Ltd, Pinewood
Manolis Stratakis
Just a quick advice: Do, use some form of eye-protection!
They are not really necessary until a little ball travelling
at 100Km per hour, strikes your eye. But at that time, they do become
necessary, believe me, I had such an experience once and I was very
lucky to avoid a severe eye injury.
From that time I always wear eye protection. At the beginning
it is a little uncomfortable, but after a few games it becomes not only
unnoticeable, but if you don't wear it, you feel strange, just like
the safety-belts in your car.
Best Regards,
Manolis.
Sanjiv K. Talwar
In article <3439F78D...@csi.forth.gr>,
Manolis Stratakis <stra...@csi.forth.gr> wrote:
>
> They are not really necessary until a little ball travelling
>at 100Km per hour, strikes your eye. But at that time, they do become
>necessary, believe me, I had such an experience once and I was very
>lucky to avoid a severe eye injury.
i'm beginning to wonder about this. its clear that there is a lot of
anecdotal evidence around here and it is difficult to ignore it. I've
myself been hit in the eye as I've mentioned before.
However, the statistics show that serious eye damage is a *very* rare
occurence. as i've bored everyone with before, the incidence of a
crippling injury seems to be NIL in an easily examined population (see
a previous post in this thread)
The only answer that occurs to me is that the eye is, in fact, an
extremely resilient organ. what this means is that medically and
statistically, the evidence points to an overestimation of the
actual risks involved by a lot of people. This ofcourse, is not
suprising since we seem to make these sort of judgement (overestimation)
all the time (for example, fear of flying). In an *objective* sense
then, these fears are irrational.
>
> From that time I always wear eye protection. At the beginning
>it is a little uncomfortable, but after a few games it becomes not only
>unnoticeable, but if you don't wear it, you feel strange, just like
>the safety-belts in your car.
sorry, my experience hasn't been as pleasant as yours. I lose at least
30% of my game and have never got used to it (thankfully I am not always
forced to wear them). further, on several ocaasions eyeguards have caused
great disruptions to the matches I have played and have sometimes caused
illfeeling. comments in the courts are often passed that are quite
unforgivable and severely vitiates the atmosphere. It is easy to indulge
in gamesmanship in matches with the ready excuse of eyeglasses. who afterall
can really tell whether fogging and sweating is real or pretense when you
take them off to conveniently wipe them. remember that, after all, you can
win or lose depending on whether you can get your breath back. thats the
nature of the game sometimes.
Probably my worst experience was during a *very* long match once with
everyones favourite here in philadelphia (the US junior 1) and the atmosphere
got *extremely* poisoned by the end by the forced interuptions. Sure, during
a couple of points in the 5th I took my time to get organised :) but I
really couldn't see much through the glasses I can tell you. I was a
foreigner then, and new to this place and it wasn't the best position to be
in I can tell you.
I'm afraid, then, while I appreciate your advice, I have my own reasons to
believe that eyewear are a blight to the sport.
sanjiv
--
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe
in God.
Mad Hamish
On 4 Oct 1997 11:45:47 -0400, ri...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Carl Riehm) wrote:
>In article <6151eu$bbi$1...@netnews.upenn.edu:,
>Sanjiv K. Talwar <sta...@blue.seas.upenn.edu: wrote:
>:
>:however, i'm quibbling so lets assume the validity of their results:
>:
>:> o Eye injury occurs between 5 and 33 times
>:> per 100,000 playing sessions.
>:
>:this is even lower than I thought. ie *all* eye injuries including
>:non serious ones occure at a maximum rate of 0.00033.
>::
>
>Now in spite of Sanjiv's obvious talent for statistics, he apparently
>overlooked the next line in the post which he is answering, to wit that
>over a lifetime of playing squash rather than just a single match, this
>means that the probability of having an eye injury is of the order of .25.
Yeah, but to get this figure they include things like cuts near the eye, which I
consider and _other_ very minor things. So the 1 in 4 is extremely inflated.
>In fact for people like me who have been playing for more years than we
>would like to admit, the probability would be even higher.
Well I don't think that the probability is completely linear. The better you are
at reading the game and the opposition the better the chance of being able to
recognise when you're in a dangerous position and avoid it, and the better the
chance that the opposition player will hold off doing something stupid.
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_l...@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_l...@tassie.net.au
Michael Pasek
Sanjiv K. Talwar wrote:
> again, for me eyeguards are a nuisance and their enforcement is
> ridiculous. i'm sure you disagree, now excuse me...
Come on Sanjiv, connect the dots pal -- I'm sure you'd have no
hesitation in going to the emergency room if you got hit in the eye.
While the doctors are working on your preventable injury, other's have
to wait.
Sam Choi
In article <344BBF...@nwa.com>, christophe...@nwa.com wrote:
> Sam Choi wrote:
> >
> > You may think it's merely a personal decision. And, largely, you're
> > right, you're the one who's most affected. But squash is not an
> > individual activity. Other people are indeed involved. For all I
> > know, you might try to sue me . . . (oh, and by the way, there's no
> > such thing as a waiver. You can NEVER waive your right to sue).
> >
> > Sam
>
> "never waive your right to sue" ? I'm sure about that one. I believe
> you sign away that right before every tournament.
I suggest you ask a lawyer. You can sign a document that says
that you waive your right to sue, and the defendant can certainly
use the document in court.
But you cannot waive your right to sue. You can always sue. You
might not win, but you can file a claim, you can schedule a court
date, you can file briefs, etc.
Sam
Michael Pasek
Shut up!!!! This has nothing to do with squash!!!!!
Harmon Pierce
He is right though, people have signed such and still sued, it is impossible to waive such rights....
|>
|> "never waive your right to sue" ? I'm sure about that one. I believe
|> you sign away that right before every tournament.
--
Harmon A. Pierce II
BOSS integration - SWS - IBM - remove x from below
xhap...@vnet.ibm.com
(507) 253-2911